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KingOfSherous said: Literally VN reader fan service episode. Which is completely and totally fine by me since I don't care what AOs think. 11/10 for Luvia alone. 12/10 for Waver. what's an AO? loved the ufoUBW, but not sure about the ending(epilogue) of this anime. shirou goes fight isis and what does rin do? will they have children? |
| あらあら。。。 |
astroprogs said: Avengerul_Sasuke said: What was with that epilogue? Is there any other season, movie or OVA to explain what was with that flashback? Maybe to show us how Shiro became a guardian? No, because he didn't. The anime for some reason did a bad job of trying to make this a bit clearer, but you're meant to contrast Shirou's smile with episode 4's "But Emiya, you never smile.", reaching the conclusion that he successfully chose a different path and is now enjoying his life instead of blindly chasing the impossible end of his ideal. but he still ends fights ISIS in the very end right? |
hardnyashaMay 14, 2017 2:47 AM
| あらあら。。。 |
Fai said: Kitoge said: this was definitely a great enough ending for me. The fact that half the thread is people thinking Shirou will go down the same path as Archer already shows that this is not great enough ending. Avengerul_Sasuke said: What was with that epilogue? Is there any other season, movie or OVA to explain what was with that flashback? Maybe to show us how Shiro became a guardian? Shirou never becomes a guardian. It should have been made clear during Answer(and even before that) that this Shirou follows far more pragmatic and different ideals than Archer did.
The show simply failed to show that in anyway, because for some reason there's absolutely zero things about Shirou's characterization and ideals in the show. Or Rin's for that matter. Or their relationship. This episode technically was uneeded filler and does not actually happen. The story ends with the school graduation scene and Rin by the window and Shirou deciding to go to London with her. There are details about their life in london and stuff here and there but we do not know what they do after that and we frankly do not need to. The little details that are known: That's it. They are living their own lives happily without predefined path or future to be afraid of. astroprogs said: No, because he didn't. The anime for some reason did a bad job of trying to make this a bit clearer, but you're meant to contrast Shirou's smile with episode 4's "But Emiya, you never smile.", reaching the conclusion that he successfully chose a different path and is now enjoying his life instead of blindly chasing the impossible end of his ideal. There's arguments that are a bit reaching and then there's looking for subtext and meaning when there's none and the show simply did not bother. The show did not focus on Shirou's ideals and did a bad job at showing his progression. There's nothing more to it than that. There's no hidden "unclear" meaning, because it would mean the show attempted it. It did not. From where is that information about Rin's fate in the spoiler? |
| あらあら。。。 |
As I already explained, nope. Archer never "fought isis" either. That was just Anime's half-botched attempt at showing the fact that The World is using Archer to murder people that it deems a threat to continued survival of humanity. Basically Being a Counter Guardian means your job is to ensure humanity always survives. Via VERY extreme measures. If some tyrant is going to start a nuclear war, you kill him and his entire country. If someone unleashed a deadly virus, you murder everything in a VERY wide vicinity to ensure nothing ever spreads. And so on. Its not a position that separates innocent from guilty. Its an equivalent of treating a broken finger by cutting off an entire arm. And no, UBW Shirou does not go that way because he is not ignoring reality and he is not doing it as a goal of achieving happiness like Archer is going.The experiences he went through in UBW route essentially led him to form a sort of a more realistic version of ideal where he sees happiness in the proccess of attaining ideal itself and understands that saving everything is impossible - trying is what matters even if you will fail again and again. As he said, him and Archer are completely different people. As for what Rin's fate is? Well she is a Magus. her main struggle is between her empathetic side as a human girl and her family pride and legacy she feels she needs to uphold. If not for Shirou Rin most likely would continue to ignore and kill her emotions till she ends up akin to Caster. Shirou is one of the few people who actually caught on onto Rin's inner conflict and the fact that she keeps up a cold facade to hide her emotions behind. Rin might appear cold and prideful on the outside but Shirou is aware that she is struggling with her emotions, that her more empathetic and nice side is clashing strongly with magus life and that she is just a little bit of a screw up even if she never wants to admit that. Hence why majority of UBW route is him intentionally trolling her in order to see her outbursts, because he finds them amusing. Which is direct mirror into how Rin behaves toward him too, being one to read through his facade and bringing up his own issues, while also teasing him. As for the future bit - Fate Hollow Ataraxia? |
AhenshihaelMay 14, 2017 5:29 AM
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hardnyasha said: astroprogs said: No, because he didn't. The anime for some reason did a bad job of trying to make this a bit clearer, but you're meant to contrast Shirou's smile with episode 4's "But Emiya, you never smile.", reaching the conclusion that he successfully chose a different path and is now enjoying his life instead of blindly chasing the impossible end of his ideal. but he still ends fights ISIS in the very end right? He might, but it won't be the same as it was with his pre-archer self. He now has no illusions about his actions and what he can accomplish. Fai said: As I already explained, nope. Archer never "fought isis" either. That was just Anime's half-botched attempt at showing the fact that The World is using Archer to murder people that it deems a threat to continued survival of humanity. In Nasu's draft for that scene, which he posted on his blog, it was pre-contract Shirou who was supposed to be shown their fighting ISIS, showcasing how he had to kill people to achieve his ideal in an intentionally constructed small-scale conflict. Having Archer there instead made it that much less impactful, not to mention lore-contradictory. Shirou fits in that scene it's just that archer doesn't. *sigh* Two years and this anime still manages to actively make me upset whenever i recall its issues. |
astroprogsMay 14, 2017 11:02 AM
astroprogs said: Fai said: As I already explained, nope. Archer never "fought isis" either. That was just Anime's half-botched attempt at showing the fact that The World is using Archer to murder people that it deems a threat to continued survival of humanity. In Nasu's draft for that scene, which he posted on his blog, it was pre-contract Shirou who was supposed to be shown their fighting ISIS, showcasing how he had to kill people to achieve his ideal in an intentionally constructed small-scale conflict. Having Archer there made it that much less impactful, not to mention lore-contradictory. *sigh* Two years and this anime still manages to actively make me upset whenever i recall its issues. While we know Archer-Shirou had to compromise his ideals a few times, Precontract Shirou going around murdering ISIS terrorists with a FUCKING BOW is the most silly and trainwrecky thing I can imagine. Fuck no. Just do F/E thing and have him use sniper riffle or something not this impractical chuuni shit. It does not make sense for superpowered tool of the planet to do that and it sure as fuck makes even less sense for a normal barely-magus ally of justice to do that. But sure let's use the nuclear reactor part of F/E(in the wrong fashion t hat makes it look like he randomly got tan and white hair for no reason too) but NOT the actually sensible skill set he should have that he had in there It takes farfar FAR bigger scale than that for Shirou to start making compromises with his ideals and Archer-Shirou as in Prologue-Shirou in no way in hellw ould accept murdering random terrorists as a fair trade for his ideals. If they wanted to showcase that need to compromise his ideals they could have just shown him stab some bandit to save a hostage or some shit not fucking random terrorists. Not to mention its UBW Shirou who is willing to make compromises and be more "elastic" in terms of his ideals. Archer-Shirou never faced his problems so having to make decisions like that would most likely BREAK HIM horribly mentally - he would not be going around randomly shooting arrows at fucking terrorists. There are enough people mistakenly thinking UBW Shirou is Archer's past self- why the fuck would that idiot write a scene that draws even further in that silly direction? But then again the same idiot thought having ambiguous Illya flashbacks is a good ide and totally won't make people draw wrong conclusions. not to mention lore-contradictory. Adaptations don't care. Nasu does not care. He literally asked them to just make stuff look "cool" for the audience that does not want to read, remember? Pretty sure any lore coherence died the moment mana-drained Archer decided to spam for UBW for an additional time, just for sake of having a different chatroom background against Saber. Or when they let Saber engage Caster in combat on the bridge and the skeleton-grab bad end did not trigger and nobody died. |
AhenshihaelMay 14, 2017 11:17 AM
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Fai said: astroprogs said: In Nasu's draft for that scene, which he posted on his blog, it was pre-contract Shirou who was supposed to be shown their fighting ISIS, showcasing how he had to kill people to achieve his ideal in an intentionally constructed small-scale conflict. Having Archer there made it that much less impactful, not to mention lore-contradictory. *sigh* Two years and this anime still manages to actively make me upset whenever i recall its issues. While we know Archer-Shirou had to compromise his ideals a few times, Precontract Shirou going around murdering ISIS terrorists with a FUCKING BOW is the most silly and trainwrecky thing I can imagine. Fuck no. Just do F/E thing and have him use sniper riffle or something not this impractical chuuni shit. It does not make sense for superpowered tool of the planet to do that and it sure as fuck makes even less sense for a normal barely-magus ally of justice to do that. But sure let's use the nuclear reactor part of F/E(in the wrong fashion t hat makes it look like he randomly got tan and white hair for no reason too) but NOT the actually sensible skill set he should have that he had in there It takes farfar FAR bigger scale than that for Shirou to start making compromises with his ideals and Archer-Shirou as in Prologue-Shirou in no way in hellw ould accept murdering random terrorists as a fair trade for his ideals. If they wanted to showcase that need to compromise his ideals they could have just shown him stab some bandit to save a hostage or some shit not fucking random terrorists. Not to mention its UBW Shirou who is willing to make compromises and be more "elastic" in terms of his ideals. Archer-Shirou never faced his problems so having to make decisions like that would most likely BREAK HIM horribly mentally - he would not be going around randomly shooting arrows at fucking terrorists. There are enough people mistakenly thinking UBW Shirou is Archer's past self- why the fuck would that idiot write a scene that draws even further in that silly direction? "Small-scale conflict" as in not "CG-tier conflict", is what i meant. in Nasu's draft it was a war between two nations and Shirou had to kill from both sides to stop the conflict, essentially making his "save everyone" pretty shallow. There was no ISIS in the OG draft BTW, they were supposed to be Freedom Fighters. Miura had his own... "vision". Nasu mentioned Shirou using his projection alot, which makes sense considering how much better he got at it to the point of achieving UBW. They should've shown him use both projection and moder weaponry to show how desperate he got and how bloody his hands became. Well, that epilogue just showed how much Miura can't handle Nasu's material. There's artistic vision, and then there's incompetence. Nasu even flatout did the screenplay for him, going as far as tell him what the camera should show and how it should move, and Miura still got it wrong. |
astroprogs said: "Small-scale conflict" as in not "CG-tier conflict", is what i meant. in Nasu's draft it was a war between two nations and Shirou had to kill from both sides to stop the conflict, essentially making his "save everyone" pretty shallow. There was no ISIS in the OG draft BTW, they were supposed to be Freedom Fighters. Miura had his own... "vision". The whole conflict idea itself is dumb. I literally can't EVER imagine Shirou going "Imma go shoot people from both sides with arrows ^_^ that will stop the war!". EVER. Even MoS-Shirou is not that much of a loony and Shirou is smarter than that. The very idea of trying to give a defined backstory to Archer-Shirou is a mistake in on itself, since he is is more of a boogeyman of Shirou's failure rather than a defined Shirou of it's own. Nasu mentioned Shirou using his projection alot, which makes sense considering how much better he got at it to the point of achieving UBW. They should've shown him use both projection and modern weaponry to show how desperate he got and how bloody his hands became. Make him project throwing knives and swords and shit, use modern weapons and martial shit, fight via traps, gadgets and shit since he is good at all that shit, etc. When I think "Archer-Shirou pre-CG" I see this: Not a dude with a fluffy weird cloak running around shooting arrows into people. Well, that epilogue just showed how much Miura can't handle Nasu's material. There's artistic vision, and then there's incompetence. Nasu even flatout did the screenplay for him, going as far as tell him what the camera should show and how it should move, and Miura still got it wrong. I doubt a single epilogue could fix the problems this show had. There's just too many things changed or outright missing. Not that Nasu is a bastion of good writing himself as literally everything he did since Mahoyo shows. A good FSN adaptation should have had a good writer and director. And no direct Nasu involvement sp he can't George Lucas this shit either. While some things coul dhave been shown(Medea's fucking backstory), Archer's Shirou's past is not one of them. |
AhenshihaelMay 14, 2017 11:50 AM
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Fai said: The whole conflict idea itself is dumb. I literally can't EVER imagine Shirou going "Imma go shoot people from both sides with arrows ^_^ that will stop the war!". EVER. Even MoS-Shirou is not that much of a loony and Shirou is smarter than that. ...Not a dude with a fluffy weird cloak running around shooting arrows into people. Um, why do you think he became a CG in the first place? He killed so many people in life to save a greater number and killing from both sides to cripple their offensive capabilities fits the description perfectly. How do you think a single foreigner can stop a freaking war between two countries? It's the only thing he can do. and he succeeded BTW. Nasu never said he exclusively used bows (or wore those clothes), he just said that he used projection a lot. > I doubt a single epilogue could fix the problems this show had. I mentioned the epilogue as an example. > Not that Nasu is a bastion of good writing himself as literally everything he did since Mahoyo shows. That sure is your opinion. Nasu's quality never slipped for me. all of his drafts for UBW were on point, it was the execution that missed the point. > A good FSN adaptation should have had a good writer and director. And no direct Nasu involvement sp he can't George Lucas this shit either. I'm sorry, but that comparison is just... no. Nasu only became better as the years went on. |
astroprogs said: Um, why do you think he became a CG in the first place? He killed so many people in life to save a greater number and killing from both sides to cripple their offensive capabilities fits the description perfectly. How do you think a single foreigner can stop a freaking war between two countries? It's the only thing he can do. and he succeeded BTW. That's not a situation Shirou would ever be part of or make such a choice in. Its needlessly edgy, contrived and it would outright destroy him mentally. If anything if he was in such situation, the world contract would happen then OR he would snap and go all Mind of Steel. The way I see it he made many of smaller compromises over the years and deaths just piled up making him more and more desperate as time went on. Sometimes he could not save anybody, sometimes he had to kill to save, sometimes people he saved killed others, etc - Prologue-Shirou outlines how that cycle goes in the prologue anyway - he saw it in the fire. It make ssense that prologue shirou would not be able to escape such contradictions. And unlike UBW shirou who can make compromises willingly and does not expect rewards, Archer-Shirou would most likely never accept those outcomes being driven to be more and more drastic in his search for saving everyone, leading to the contract. "He only upheld ideal when he could" literally draws pointless comparisons to UBW Shirou( who is willing to accept defeats and failures and adjust his ideals to reality when needed) and that is the LAST thing this story needs because Archer Shirou and UBW Shirou are completely different people with completely different ideals. astroprogs said: I'm sorry, but that comparison is just... no. Nasu only became better as the years went on. Gotta post this because this works as both reaction and argument:  And yet his magnum opus are still FSN and Tsukihime that have yet to be topped(CCC comes close if to ignore all the weird shit). And yet still most of his work go downward in quality and upward in ridiculousness. We started with intorspective psychological philosophical tales about unique broken people, selfdestructive flawed nature of humanity, lovecraftian eldritch horrors and magic concepts rooted in western and hindu occult. Then we went on to boring one dimensional self insert MCs, anime trope characters, lore being made up on spot, power of feelings, mass effect rip offs, humanity being literally race of chosen special ones, heroic spirits changing their race by going evil, harem bullshit, memes and santa claus servants. And yet still Nasuverse's best current work is written by a person who has nothing to do with Nasu beyond common interest in Dark Souls. Nasu's best writing was FSN and Tsukihime. Great characters, great contained, focused contemporary lore without too many "oh so anime" hijinks, great interesting relationships. And the comparison works perfectly - both of them had their magnum opus be something in the past, both of them excahnged consistency and limited scope of their franchises for more money and both of them can't help but butt in into the past works to retcon shit for the worse. |
AhenshihaelMay 14, 2017 1:09 PM
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| @Fai So, Shirou wouldn't want to solve a conflict that would facilitate the murder of countless people and wouldn't be forced to make big compromises because that would break him. That's your argument? Really? Shirou, the guy with no sense of self, wouldn't want to stop this conflict? You think the guy who willingly chose to fight in the HGW would stop at any conflict? Shirou's mindset for becoming a CG is the same one who wanted to kill his younger self. He was already filled with regrets, he wanted to make everything right by becoming a CG. He was already broken by that point. He wouldn't snap to MoS because it became very clear that nothing he does, neither as a human nor as a CG, matters. He just can't save everyone, he's still being forced to kill even after becoming a CG. He literally says in the VN that he thought that becoming a CG would mean that he would stop killing people to save a greater number, but becoming a CG was repeating the exact same thing, but on a larger scale. *sigh* Edison isn't even by Nasu. He's by Narita. again, that sure is your opinion. You can cherry-pick whatever you like, but stop saying that they're objectively the best works. You're seriously incapable of accepting differing views. > We started with > Then we went on to So, your entire argument on Nasu becoming a worse writer is a mobile game that wasn't even intended as a mainline or even serious story for almost half of its development time. Well, okay then. > boring one dimensional self insert MCs Guda is protagonist in name only. He/she's a game mechanic, not a character. His/her dialogue choices are either questions or the standard serious or funny choices aka he/she has no actual dialogue. He/she's there because he/she' the player, not their own character. He/she doesn't even have his/her own name. he/she's not an actual character. His anime character isn't by Nasu too. > anime trope characters Like all of Nasu's works, his characters are all anime tropes with depth. F/GO characters who matter to the story(/aren't interchange with any of the other 500 Servants in the game) are the same. > lore being made up on spot Nasu always made up lore on the spot. That's not a new thing. I've said it before and I'll say it again, welcome to 2004. > power of feelings Conceptual weapons and crystallized myths. When you think about itm it still makes sense following the rules of the world. > mass effect rip offs Something being a ripoff of something is when it copies with saving-face alterations and nothing new of its own. Extells is objectively not that. Similar story elements doesn't make something a ripoff of something else. I thought you were above this ripoff-calling crap. > heroic spirits changing their race by going evil Bad design is not changing race. Why the hell are we even discussing this obvious crap? > harem bullshit Oh yes, harems were never in the Nasuverse before. > memes What even is hollow ataraxia? > santa claus servants ...ok, now I'm seriously doubting if you're even familiar with Type-Moon. This is the universe where punching Shirou into a Taiga Dojo and back in a non-bad ending scene in Fate is part of canon. Next you'll be complaining about Okita and Nobu, who are actual canon Servants before F/GO was eve a thing, are joke characters and the instances that give them actual backstory and characters are 4koma strips. > And the comparison works perfectly - both of them had their magnum opus be something in the past, both of them excahnged consistency and limited scope of their franchises for more money and both of them can't help but butt in into the past works to retcon shit for the worse. There's one huge difference though. While most people believe that about Lucas, you're literally the first one I've seen say the same about Nasu. You could just say that F/GO and Extella are not for you, respect the opinions of those who like them and move on, but nope, apparently that would be too open minded to do. |
| i think i have a potato brain thanks to you too |
hardnyashaMay 18, 2017 8:34 AM
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astroprogs said: *sigh* Edison isn't even by Nasu. He's by Narita. again, that sure is your opinion. You can cherry-pick whatever you like, but stop saying that they're objectively the best works. You're seriously incapable of accepting differing views Edison is not the only thing bad though? And it was still approved by nasu. most of the dumb shit in last half is also entirely onto nasu too So, your entire argument on Nasu becoming a worse writer is a mobile game that wasn't even intended as a mainline or even serious story for almost half of its development time. Well, okay then. Oh b-but here we had this whole talk about how FGO has been totes canon and great from the very start !!1oneone?!one. They even did whole livestream how only FSN and FGO are canon and FZ is not after all! Also Extella is not mobile game. So with only FGO and Extella existing as Nasu's main works right now, what ELSE should I judge him with? FSF is Narita, Prillya is Hiroyama. Case Files is some literally who Honestly I am happy that other people can write for Nasuverse still, to be honest: - FSF is decent Durarara-reskin with servants - Prillya is CLOSEST to how Nasuverse was and should be. Praised be Hiroyama Hiroshi, for at least he is a big enough fanboy of nasuverse to know what made it fun and interesting. FGO and Extella are Nasu's only legacy right now. And its not good. The fact that you feel the need to single it out from the rest only proves that you subconsciously know that too. 3rei Alone literally shits on both of them in terms of quality. Guda is protagonist in name only. He/she's a game mechanic, not a character. His/her dialogue choices are either questions or the standard serious or funny choices aka he/she has no actual dialogue. He/she's there because he/she' the player, not their own character. He/she doesn't even have his/her own name. he/she's not an actual character. His anime character isn't by Nasu too. So who is the protagonist then? Because a coherent narrative HAS to have a protagonist. And that is the purpose Guda serves to. If we remove that then we have Mashu who is just as bad if not worse. Face it - Guda is a protagonist and a self insert, no matter the excuses you give. You do realize that excuses you gave literally PROVE my point that he is a self insert protag, right? Like all of Nasu's works, his characters are all anime tropes with depth. F/GO characters who matter to the story(/aren't interchange with any of the other 500 Servants in the game) are the same. No? Shirou, Shiki, Shiki, etc are literally OPPOSITE of anime tropes. Characters like Rin, while people like to bundle together with tsundere trope, are realistic people that avert the trope ideas or only have it on the surface. FGO characters are literally ONLY tropes. But please do write an essay on how Edison, MHX and Santa Jeanne Lily Alter are deep complex interesting multilayered characters to rival Shirou. Nasu always made up lore on the spot. That's not a new thing. I've said it before and I'll say it again, welcome to 2004. Except that lore was coherent and well thought out. Like, literally strongest part of FSN and Tsukihime and KNK writing is well thought out and interesting and complex world building creating realistic and interesting contemporary world built upon buddhism, western occultism and philosophy. Current Nasu is literally "let's throw in random chuuni concepts with big foreign sounding names and hope something sticks even if it contradicts everything else. YAY" > power of feelings Conceptual weapons and crystallized myths. When you think about itm it still makes sense following the rules of the world. Conceptual Weapons make sense within the idea of akasha and records. Its scientiffic idea that makes sense within the world. Shoneny nonsense of succeeding via power of love and positive thinking is literally shoneny bullshit the opposite of Nasuverse's themes. Current Nasuverse ideas are literally the things FSN deconstructs. You either die a hero or.... Something being a ripoff of something is when it copies with saving-face alterations and nothing new of its own. Extells is objectively not that. Similar story elements doesn't make something a ripoff of something else. I thought you were above this ripoff-calling crap. Extella is exactly that, except worse. It takes a setting that was well off without it, completely alters its meaning and themes and changes the focus onto a concept that modern fiction already run into the ground, WHILE adding anime bullshit. Bad design is not changing race. Why the hell are we even discussing this obvious crap? Its still something Nasu is okay with. Oh yes, harems were never in the Nasuverse before. harem elements =/= literally adding harem bullshit like with Extella Zero. Most of "shiki harem" meme is just that - a meme. What even is hollow ataraxia? A well written mindfuck? It surely did not have a memetic replay of star wars saga with focus on "seibaface" meta meme. it surely did not have a heroic spirit fighting by throwing around giant enemy crabs(tm). ...ok, now I'm seriously doubting if you're even familiar with Type-Moon. This is the universe where punching Shirou into a Taiga Dojo and back in a non-bad ending scene in Fate is part of canon. Next you'll be complaining about Okita and Nobu, who are actual canon Servants before F/GO was eve a thing, are joke characters and the instances that give them actual backstory and characters are 4koma strips. Taiga Dojo segments have the same canon level of importance as Carnival Phantasm. There's a reason why Carnival Phantasm is not part of the actual real nasuverse works and does not directly crossover with them. You DO NOT see Shiki enlisting help of Neko Arc in KNK to fight Araya. You do not see Taiga saving Shirou from Kirei with a wooden sword. Because there's a clear separation from what is meta joke for reader and what is the actual reality of the narrative. You can have meta-aware content in your work but you always draw the line(unless it is focus like with John Scalzi's redhisrts) between reality and meta-humor. Even Monogatari does not mix up them that much and even then I am sorry, Nasu is no NisiOisiN. Not. Even. Close. Sakura Saber and Nobu were NOT canon. They were April Fools jokes and 4komma bullshit at most and they were not within canon nasuverse till FGO. "Sakura Saber" was literally design created to troll saberface complaints. There's one huge difference though. While most people believe that about Lucas, you're literally the first one I've seen say the same about Nasu. You could just say that F/GO and Extella are not for you, respect the opinions of those who like them and move on, but nope, apparently that would be too open minded to do. Plenty of people say that. "Everything that makes money is what is canon" is the new meme after all. Most of current TM fandom simply is overrun with memesters who just care about servants and memes, so it is drowned out tbqh. And you are right, it is not for me. FGO targets the specific neet audience in Japan and caters to their tastes. Then again, Nasu literally disowning non-fate works(by doing the dumb "dead apostles cant be in same worlds as servants" shit), turning everyone and their mothers into servants and abandoning the rest of nasuverse and focusing on a gacha mobage only furthers that. |
AhenshihaelMay 19, 2017 10:25 AM
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| So this is the end. The epilogue was nice to watch. Especially with Rin and Shirou's scenes. Though Rin's personality hasn't change even a little bit. So that Shinji guy is still alive. Waver with that long hair. Almost missed him. |
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| It was a good finale. So 2 years have passed since the war and they're both living in London for 6 months now. Shirou's hairstyle is becoming like Archer when he disappeared last episode! Rin's long hair is the same as her mother. So what happened to her mother? I know she went mental breakdown and all. Luvia!!! I saw her on some scenes on Kaleid. I thought she was an original character from that series. Saber's burial ground in glastonbury I feel the flashback should have happen at the beginning of the episode instead of the middle. Also, If there's one thing I didn't like in this adaptation is the lack of Sakura scenes. I'm sure she had plenty of development in the visual novel game. I guess that's why her seiyuu cried when they announced the Heaven's Feel movie. Glad she's going to have a more central role this time around!! Waver!! I'm sure he feels somewhat the same as Shirou was back then. And lol a handshake?! Damnit just give one kiss to end the scene. It would have been perfect The Epilouge scene was kinda confusing. So Archer remains the same and will have to go through the same battles he did back then? I give this show a 9/10. Really it's the action scenes, animation and OST that are well made. Sure they could have done better on the characterization. But it's obvious you need something like 40+ episodes for a 50-60 hour visual novel. Now we wait for the Heaven's Fell trilogy movie and hopefully Fate Hollow Ataraxia adaptation soon!! |
SomaHeir said: Rin's long hair is the same as her mother. So what happened to her mother? I know she went mental breakdown and all. Dead I feel the flashback should have happen at the beginning of the episode instead of the middle. That's because most of the episode is anime original filler. Story ends with Shirou and Rin deciding to leave together for London after their graduation. Also, If there's one thing I didn't like in this adaptation is the lack of Sakura scenes. I'm sure she had plenty of development in the visual novel game. Why would Sakura have more scenes? She is some irrelevant childhood friend of Shirou with no ties to the story going on. If anything she had MORE scenes in this adaptation than in the visual novel because the first half of the show wasted way too much screentime on irrelevant things. The Epilouge scene was kinda confusing. So Archer remains the same and will have to go through the same battles he did back then? Shirou is not Archer and won't become Archer. There's only one Shirou who became Archer and thats not UBW Shirou. UBW Shirou is not making Archer's choices and does not have the same worldview as him. No matter what Archer would remain the same anyway. Even if Archer were to find the version of Shirou that he comes from or somehow killed all Shirous in existence, he would still remain same because all heroic spirits are recorded outside normal space and time, thus his whole ploy to end his past self is meaningless insanity. Seigen said: Archer's brighter UBW Wat. There was no UBW this episode |
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That was just Archer in a (metaphorical) desert of his own issues. |
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| Good epilogue/finale. Visiting Saber's grave to say goodbye, the brief time in London for magic school, and the Waver cameos were all nice. I would've liked a kiss at the end instead of a handshake, though! Regardless, it's clear they're a couple without it, and I'm happy about that. Overall a strong series. The animation was god-tier, music was strong, and I really liked the characters and developments, although Shirou's stubbornness could get a little aggravating. I'm excited for Heaven's Feel, but I want to wait until all the movies are released so I don't have the excruciating wait between everything and can just binge it all like I did with this. I'd also like Ufotable to adapt the Fate/stay night arc that Deen did in 2006, as I hear the Deen version is awful whereas Ufotable does it well. |
jdimaria3 said: although Shirou's stubbornness could get a little aggravating. Nothing of his behavior has anything to do with stubborness. like Ufotable to adapt the Fate/stay night arc that Deen did in 2006, as I hear the Deen version is awful whereas Ufotable does it well. Ufotable's version is prettier and does not try to mix all three routes into one, but otherwise both versions fail at adapting the material. |
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Rafffy__ said: I certainly enjoyed it alot, to bad we didn't get to see the ships sail >:( This is UBW of course the ship sail. |
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Dude in every Fate route the ships sails. Read VN for more info... |
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| will they do another season or few special or ova that shows what happens with Shirou & will he have same future as Archer had, i want to know what happens next when Rin was fighting with the blond girl in the hallway i was expecting shiro to say don't worry i only love u (Rin's reaction would have been hilarious) XD its like saying don't be jealous cause i only love u, same meaning its just that he doesn't say jealous out loud Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
NexuNov 2, 2017 2:59 PM
| what the hell was this bullshit I enjoyed the first cour but this was just...bad. Shirou had zero development, so his conflict with Archer had no depth. The result was Shirou being determined to persevere, like ''I know my ideal might be a false or wrong one, but regardless I want to fulfill it''. And then in a classic shounen manner Archer was moved and decided not to kill him. Then we had to deal with all that shit with Gilgamesh. Shirou was suddenly OP and ufotable didn't even bother explaining most of it. Archer was miraculously (?) back to help Shirou with no explanation, so this seemed like poor plot armour for the MC. And of course this episode takes the cake, we are suddenly in London where Rin and Shirou live in, we get Rin fanservice and then a weird flashback scene. I literally didn't care. The first season was 8/10 for me but this was awful. It's 5/10 for me, and the only reason for this generous rating is because I thought the first 3 eps were great. |
| It's not cheating if she calls you Sherou lol. Entertaining. Overall 8/10 for both seasons of UBW. Kojiro "I want to win a battle and get famous" Sasaki. His comment he misjudged Saber was on the mark. Gilgamesh oh no you didn't. Ahem, Lancer is awesome. Gorgeous animation. In season 1 the Saber fanservice "eating away at you" was oh so subtle. Not to mention the Rin fan service. Not real problems, more like noodle incidents. The harem thread is done away with until Luvia shows up in this episode because a girl just has to flirt with Emiya. And it's like they forgot to draw a blush on Emiya in earlier episode confession scenes making me think Emiya has some interesting friendship into love spectrum romantic preference heh. It's like he was talking aloud unaware Rin could hear him. That's it for general comments. Gripes: Too bad Shinji abusing Sakura just seems to be forgotten. I don't think they had to save Shinji. And at other times I was like to break the stalemate in this fight they should totally try to kick the opponent in the balls. I can see why people consider Emiya a disappointing protagonist, at worst and flattest he's stubborn and just wants to become Archer. His flaw is either trivialized or followed to no end which leaves him with a subpar character motivation. This probably isn't my favorite FSN route. The fanfiction and parodies are better. ;p |
Toxic_MongooseJan 15, 2018 1:02 AM
Toxic_Mongoose said: It's not cheating if she calls you Sherou lol. Entertaining. Overall 8/10 for both seasons of UBW. Kojiro "I want to win a battle and get famous" Sasaki. His comment he misjudged Saber was on the mark. Gilgamesh oh no you didn't. Ahem, Lancer is awesome. Gorgeous animation. In season 1 the Saber fanservice "eating away at you" was oh so subtle. Not to mention the Rin fan service. Not real problems, more like noodle incidents. The harem thread is done away with until Luvia shows up in this episode because a girl just has to flirt with Emiya. And it's like they forgot to draw a blush on Emiya in earlier episode confession scenes making me think Emiya has some interesting friendship into love spectrum romantic preference heh. It's like he was talking aloud unaware Rin could hear him. That's it for general comments. Gripes: Too bad Shinji abusing Sakura just seems to be forgotten. I don't think they had to save Shinji. And at other times I was like to break the stalemate in this fight they should totally try to kick the opponent in the balls. I can see why people consider Emiya a disappointing protagonist, at worst and flattest he's stubborn and just wants to become Archer. His flaw is either trivialized or followed to no end which leaves him with a subpar character motivation. This probably isn't my favorite FSN route. The fanfiction and parodies are better. ;p Check out the new Heaven's Feel movie that's just out. They definitely don't forget about Shinji abusing Sakura there. |
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| Aand it's a wrap! For a moment, I thought that the older Shirou and Rin was a foreshadowing becasue of the flashback lol It was a good series for me. Lots of moments I enjoyed (especially the fight scenes) and of course some downs as well - 7/10 - P.S. I forgot to add that the OP here was better than the first one. Gave me some grandiose feeling which is nice ~ |
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| Great anime but i guess it could've been better, i had higher expectations for UBW. |
 V I S I T M Y 【P R O F I L E 💕】 |
| What is this shit?! Time skips? Hollow ataraxia spoilers?! What nonsense! I didn't even watch the entire thing, I stopped when I saw Luvia. Thanks ufotable for ruining it slightly for me. As far as I'm concerned, the anime ended at ep 12... I'll go watch the correct epilogue... sunny day. |
iDensityNov 15, 2018 9:46 AM
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| This fuckin end. None kiss, none nothing. I'm very disappointed. In general, the anime was amazing until the beggining of the episode 24. What about Shirou and Tohsaka? For me, it's seems very inconclusive. Shirou becoming Archer? Even after all that? In story terms, Fate/zero had a much better job, making UBW look like an anime that you can only enjoy the battles and plotting of Kirei with Gilgamesh. I expected a lot more from UBW. SAD! |
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| ah finally Luvia is here. Also Rin reached her cutest form in this one. Pretty nice ending I must say, way more satisfying than zero for me. I actually wanna read the VN at some point now. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
| I really wish I watched this before Fate/Zero as it's supposed to be. I know that I shouldn't compare but UBW is inferior to Fate/Zero in almost everything. I felt no tension watching the fights. The plot and characters hardly make sense and comedy is used inappropriately (for me). I can say I enjoy SoL moments but it's not what I want after watching f/z. At least the animation is still great. The OP is one of my favorites. Rin is cute and the ending is sastifying. 5/10. Not sure I should watch HF or not after this lmao. |
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tuanguyen said: I really wish I watched this before Fate/Zero as it's supposed to be. I know that I shouldn't compare but UBW is inferior to Fate/Zero in almost everything. I felt no tension watching the fights. The plot and characters hardly make sense and comedy is used inappropriately (for me). I can say I enjoy SoL moments but it's not what I want after watching f/z. At least the animation is still great. The OP is one of my favorites. Rin is cute and the ending is sastifying. 5/10. Not sure I should watch HF or not after this lmao. HF has a similar tone to FZ, but you shouldn't expect a free for all battle royale, Fate/stay night has clear protagonists and you shouldn't have expected UBW to be similar to FZ, they are written by different authors and have different focus and tone, FZ was originally meant to be watched/read after all 3 routes of FSN(not just UBW route), watching FZ first can give you the wrong impression of what FSN is about tuanguyen said: The plot and characters hardly make sense that's because it's a bad adaptation |
| I've browse this forum a lot after each episodes and I can't believe how many problems are ignored and most of people are concentrated on adaptation problems. Even if I trust at 100% VN readers when they tell me it's not a good adaptation and a lot of the better aspects of UBW story are not present or badly used, they seem to forgot of HOW MUCH elements of UBW's plot that are here are complete trash. I've seen a walkthrough of both Fate and Ubw and I think it's more relevant on what's there more than what isn't. Quality of adaptation is not the most important thing to consider when judging and adapted material, it's the definition of "adaptation" itself. So I'm judging this serie for what it is alone (Just UBW story) and for what it is as a whole (All F/SN routes and Zero) The thing that annoys me the most must be how characters are used. Let's not talk about tertiary useless characters such as Illya's garbage maids, boring random students, mister blonde hair harem mage scientific my dick ... seriously who the fuck is even that guy *sigh* or fanservice british autistic girl who just appear in the epilogue. No let's talk about characters that should be useful and interesting but are not, and aren't saved by the "you should know that by knowing other routes" because even as a standalone or by comparing to Fate route, main characters in UBW literally aren't the same and are completely blank : Medea is teased in the first season as a menace almost equivalent to Gilgamesh for our heroes, and yet, you want me to believe she dies with just by 3 poor Archer blades through her back and that I must believe she couldn't just wipe the blades when he threw them to Kuzuki, Oh yes he took her by surprise of course, so she's aware of everything happening in Ryudo Temple but not on the one guy 5 meters away from her, HOW UNFORTUNATE ! Kirei's case also drives me crazy and bring up the problem of what this show is trying to be, VN adaptation ? F/Z sequel ? Mash-up of the each routes ? Or perhaps all of them at the same time. Kirei is literally the main antagonist of Fate's route and from what I've heard he's also important in HF, he's bad-ass as hell, his voice makes me shiver, and holy fuck HE ACHIEVED TO ALLY WITH THE KING OF HEROES HIMSELF GILGAMESH ! I thought one of the best moment of Fate route is when his true nature is revealed because this was not expected and shows how manipulation and mindgame are important in the Grail War, not just having the best servant. But here he's at the opposite of what he is either in F/SN or Zero, I mean he is during his 15 minutes or so of screen-time. Even if in the VN your choices determined how the story will differ and events will change, characters are supposed to keep the same powers and goals. How can he asks Lancer to suicide himself, he knows for sure that Lancer could be useful until the time he obtain the grail, and WHY DID GILGAMESH DIDN'T SAVE HIM FROM DYING LIKE A BITCH BY LANCER ?! HE ABSOLUTELY COULD BUT DIDN'T ? Switch up on Gilgamesh because I already hear people saying : "Gilgamesh acts on his own and just care for himself" Yes Gilgamesh is selfish but he's not an asshole and more so, he's not stupid and knows that Kirei is the best Master present in this war. In Fate Zero he even says that he likes Kirei and has a debt towards him to keeping him safe after the 4th Grail War. But still UBW want me to believe he doesn't care about savin him, I don't like that. AND THEN they also want me to believe that GILGAMESH (the guy that did not even let Iskandar approach him) WOULD LET SHIROU JUST ATTACK HIM FREELY WHILE HE COULD KILL HIM IN A SINGLE BLOW ?!! IS THIS SERIOUS ? If there is something I know from Gil is that he doesn't like to waste his time but here HE COMPLETELY LET HIMSELF GET KILLED ! So what ? No Enuma Elish, no fucking Gate of Babylon ? How is this possible such cult lines in your route ! WE REACH A POINT HE PREFERS TO FIGHT WITH THIS TRASHY BLACK VEST THAN HIS ICONIC GOLD ARMOR ! This is in the VN, why they didn't fix that, it's bad, it's really really bad no matter what. (I even think his armor would have save him from getting his arm cut but I don't know Shiro's power level that well). Anyway Kirei and Gil in UBW are wasted to just show more Tsundere Rin with no meaning at all. This show doesn't know how to setup antogonist and that's a sin. "Kirei isn't central for this route, UBW tells Shiro's story and the resolution of his dream and convictions" Okay so why is he present at all, especially in s2. Why does he had to survive when Medea attacked him if it's just to die in a second for nothing 6 eps later. Because it's in the VN ? You could have changed that, it's not because it's in the VN that it's good, Type Moon aren't the best writers ever, they make appealing characters and very good settings but their approach of philosophical themes and plot progression is messy, even if Fate is a very hard to concept to narrate. I don't even think adding more dialogues to Kirei would have changed it, it's just bad character development and utilisation. |
James-LastOmnicJun 6, 2019 2:49 PM
| They skipped their third year at that school. No proper farewell to Issei, Taiga, and Sakura. Also I had a bet that Kirei might still alive, but no. I had hoped that they'll give him a proper farewell, but then again, no. Archer/Future Shirou: " I was not wrong." Me: " Just because you're not wrong, doesn't mean you're not mistaken." |
Kish0Jun 19, 2019 6:59 AM
| He who smiles in a crisis has found someone to blame. |
LoomyTheBrew said: Looking back on this episode, I think I was most irked about is that it didn't have more Rin and Shirou romance and it didn't really feel like to good of a conclusion. If I'm going to see Rin and Shirou in London I wanted more of a satisfying ending where I feel I'd be confident that their lives were on the right path and that their relationship was doing well. They didn't show us romance at all basically, are you fucking kidding me? They're living together for fucks sake. This anime in general didn't play too well for their relationship, just made it seem childish and pure. To me the ending just felt a bit lifeless and not emotional enough, and I wasn't sure how things would turn out for them. It just bugged me. Even as a VN reader I didn't like it, I could care less about the Easter eggs, I just wanted a more insightful and emotional conclusion. I agree with this criticism. I sat throughout the whole epilogue asking: "So are they dating or are they not???" The scene where Luvia joins the harem made it look like they were NOT dating, because Rin did not play the relationship card. She did not act like a girlfriend with a legitimate claim; she acted like an ordinary harem member. If they had been dating for two years, Rin shouldn't be this insecure. And if they HAVEN'T been dating for two years, then that's incredibly pathetic, since it is painfully obvious that they both want to. (Are we supposed to like Luvia as a character? In both this and Prisma Illya, she comes off to me as nothing more than unfunny comic relief.) I gather that this episode was supposed to Rin and Shirou being happy together, but IMO the makers ruined that by being coy and refusing to show any actual romantic progress. If you're going to be this coy and not show any payoff, why even have the romance in the first place? Why not cut it entirely? Are Type-Moon traumatized with shame over the 18+ content of the original VN so that now they dare not show anything more explicit than hand-holding? Overall, IMO this anime has some great elements but many, many flaws. I give it 7/10. Only slightly better than the Deen anime (which is also a 7/10 for me). |
SpectrumDT said: LoomyTheBrew said: Looking back on this episode, I think I was most irked about is that it didn't have more Rin and Shirou romance and it didn't really feel like to good of a conclusion. If I'm going to see Rin and Shirou in London I wanted more of a satisfying ending where I feel I'd be confident that their lives were on the right path and that their relationship was doing well. They didn't show us romance at all basically, are you fucking kidding me? They're living together for fucks sake. This anime in general didn't play too well for their relationship, just made it seem childish and pure. To me the ending just felt a bit lifeless and not emotional enough, and I wasn't sure how things would turn out for them. It just bugged me. Even as a VN reader I didn't like it, I could care less about the Easter eggs, I just wanted a more insightful and emotional conclusion. I agree with this criticism. I sat throughout the whole epilogue asking: "So are they dating or are they not???" The scene where Luvia joins the harem made it look like they were NOT dating, because Rin did not play the relationship card. She did not act like a girlfriend with a legitimate claim; she acted like an ordinary harem member. If they had been dating for two years, Rin shouldn't be this insecure. And if they HAVEN'T been dating for two years, then that's incredibly pathetic, since it is painfully obvious that they both want to. (Are we supposed to like Luvia as a character? In both this and Prisma Illya, she comes off to me as nothing more than unfunny comic relief.) I gather that this episode was supposed to Rin and Shirou being happy together, but IMO the makers ruined that by being coy and refusing to show any actual romantic progress. If you're going to be this coy and not show any payoff, why even have the romance in the first place? Why not cut it entirely? Are Type-Moon traumatized with shame over the 18+ content of the original VN so that now they dare not show anything more explicit than hand-holding? Overall, IMO this anime has some great elements but many, many flaws. I give it 7/10. Only slightly better than the Deen anime (which is also a 7/10 for me). Lol while I may have rephrased things a little (and maybe fix up some of my grammar), my sentiment is still largely the same even today. The last episode felt lifeless and did not feel satisfying. It didn't feel like a conclusion at all, it almost felt like a first episode of a new season. There just wasn't good closure and the portrayal of Shirou and Rin's relationship was just lackluster. But my dude, the Heaven's Feel movies are soooooooooooooooo much better than the UBW anime on all accounts: as a standalone and as an adaptation. Type Moon isn't afraid to show romance or explicit material (HF movies prove this), I think the downsides to the UBW anime and Rin x Shirou romance was largely do to the director Miura. His direction in UBW was very bad imo. The director of HF has done an incredible job; the movies captures Shirou's and Sakura's characters and relationship almost perfectly. I highly recommend the HF movies if you haven't already watched them, it's the best Fate adaptation to date by a long shot. |
LoomyTheBrew said: Lol while I may have rephrased things a little (and maybe fix up some of my grammar), my sentiment is still largely the same even today. The last episode felt lifeless and did not feel satisfying. It didn't feel like a conclusion at all, it almost felt like a first episode of a new season. There just wasn't good closure and the portrayal of Shirou and Rin's relationship was just lackluster. But my dude, the Heaven's Feel movies are soooooooooooooooo much better than the UBW anime on all accounts: as a standalone and as an adaptation. Type Moon isn't afraid to show romance or explicit material (HF movies prove this), I think the downsides to the UBW anime and Rin x Shirou romance was largely do to the director Miura. His direction in UBW was very bad imo. The director of HF has done an incredible job; the movies captures Shirou's and Sakura's characters and relationship almost perfectly. I highly recommend the HF movies if you haven't already watched them, it's the best Fate adaptation to date by a long shot. Thanks for the advice, man. I haven't watched the HF movies yet because I was planning to wait until the trilogy is complete. |
SpectrumDT said: LoomyTheBrew said: Lol while I may have rephrased things a little (and maybe fix up some of my grammar), my sentiment is still largely the same even today. The last episode felt lifeless and did not feel satisfying. It didn't feel like a conclusion at all, it almost felt like a first episode of a new season. There just wasn't good closure and the portrayal of Shirou and Rin's relationship was just lackluster. But my dude, the Heaven's Feel movies are soooooooooooooooo much better than the UBW anime on all accounts: as a standalone and as an adaptation. Type Moon isn't afraid to show romance or explicit material (HF movies prove this), I think the downsides to the UBW anime and Rin x Shirou romance was largely do to the director Miura. His direction in UBW was very bad imo. The director of HF has done an incredible job; the movies captures Shirou's and Sakura's characters and relationship almost perfectly. I highly recommend the HF movies if you haven't already watched them, it's the best Fate adaptation to date by a long shot. Thanks for the advice, man. I haven't watched the HF movies yet because I was planning to wait until the trilogy is complete. Ya dude no problem! Ah that makes sense, it's nice to see a complete story, just one more years! But ya, you have a lot to look forward to. I think you'll be much more pleased with it than the UBW anime. |
| Damn, adult Shirou is really hot. Anyway, a bit better that S1. Character's actions made more sense here. 6/10 for S1. 7/10 for S2. 7/10 for the anime. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
| I thoroughly enjoyed UBW, substantially more than I did the 2006 anime. The only thing I'm not too sure on is whether Rin and Shirou are actually together or just friends at the end. I would hope that they are because I was shipping them from the first moment I saw them in FSN. |
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