Grey-Zone said: Yeah I see your point. Witch Craft Works is also like that. Ayaka being offense and Honoka being support.DrGeroCreation said: Ah I forgot about Kazuya's freezing ability. It doesn't provide healing to my recollection though. It's not the same, but it's still clearly divided into "main fighter = female, support = male". |
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Grey-Zone said: ZetaZaku said: Guess this gives me a good enough reason to post this webm http://a.pomf.se/uosloz.webm Ohayou! Pomf has been shut down, you can read more at http://blog.pomf.se/post/121058516206/shutting-down. I see that now. It still worked for me thanks to cache from yesterday I guess. This should work then http://webm.host/ca645/ |
 "Your sight, my delight. Will you marry me?" |
DrGeroCreation said: AttackOnTetris said: In Steven Universe the male mc has only defensive and healing abilities while the females have all the offensive abilities. I haven't see that type of gender role reversal in anime yet.I actually think that anime easily offers the most hope compared to live action TV and [b]Western cartoons [/b]. Where else can you find a story supposedly for a teenage boy demographic which deconstructs gender role enforcement more cleverly than Hunter x Hunter? And it still manages to be successful. Well that's why I said clever. I have not watched Steven Universe but simply reversing roles isn't exactly clever. Even Mikasa basically does that with her overprotective "white knight" tendencies toward Eren. HxH toys with them in ways I haven't seen in other medias. There's a lot of "female acts like gender-normative male" stuff in Western media which I got nothing against in principle, but I haven't seen much of subtly blurring/erasing the lines, and toying with gender expectations outside of sexual conduct. |
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jpenobagel said: It's a thing that's present in many cultures. Bros and hos, chicks and *icks, whatever. The debate over its prevalence and effect on society is also present in many cultures. I can't say that it affects me very much as I'm not completely against gender roles. My personal opinion is that too many times, the extremes are used for examples against and that the reasoning behind it usually gets corrupted by simplification and misusage. Ex: why should we perpetuate the belief that people should fit into their gender roles? Conversely, why do we perpetuate fitting into gender roles as inherently wrong? etc, etc. Ideally, everyone should freely and comfortably be able to express their feelings as they see fit without having to worry about social pressure. There's an unbelievable amount of social pressure forcing people inside of the "gender norms" boxes. At least lately, other boxes have become increasingly more and more acceptable, but you're still a societal outcast outside of those boxes, and often within them as well. Think of it like this - everyone is their own unique color. There are no two people in the world with the exact same color, and we should not have to cover up our true colors. That's where the rainbow symbolism originally came from. |
HalkenburgJun 9, 2015 7:51 PM
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ichii_1 said: Men are better than women in everything but child birth, so women should do their roles and support men in their endeavors. Fuckin troll bait |
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| There are two mindsets that should be avoided, IMO: 1. "Gender roles fit well for some people, therefore all people have to follow them, and no one is allowed to step outside their specific role!". This is one side of the extreme. It's the reason why feminism, as a movement, appeard in the first place, which was, and still is, to counter this mindset. The mindset is extremely self-limiting and it's inducing it's foundation based on a not representative amount of "samples" just from the "some people where gender roles fit well". So it appears that the whole limitation of freedom does not even have a reliable foundation... 2. "Gender roles are absolutely, without exception bad, and if you follow them you are doing it wrong". That's something that comes up only recently and it's the other side of the extreme. Nowadays gender roles are viewed like an evil demon by many "feminists" and if those are ever used in fiction, they will supposedly without any doubt prove that the fiction's story is supposedly "sexist". But would you call a woman who takes the role of a housewife who cooks and cleans the house because she loves her husband as "letting herself be oppressed"? Would you call her husband "sexist" because he does not go full SJW to refuse her to to take the role? Or do you think both of them are "doing it wrong"? I certainly only see a couple that chose to use the "typical" gender roles in this case. Just let people do what they want to as long as no one is being forced to live their whole life completely against their own will. |
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Grey-Zone said: ^ If you don't hold this mindset, then this mindset becomes impossible v2. "Gender roles are absolutely, without exception bad, and if you follow them you are doing it wrong". Grey-Zone said: Just let people do what they want to as long as no one is being forced to live their whole life completely against their own will. |
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Red_Keys said: Grey-Zone said: ^ If you don't hold this mindset, then this mindset becomes impossible v2. "Gender roles are absolutely, without exception bad, and if you follow them you are doing it wrong". Grey-Zone said: Just let people do what they want to as long as no one is being forced to live their whole life completely against their own will. No. Believe it or not. There are people who actually naturally fit the gender roles without even being forced into them. If someone chooses to step into a gender role themselves, then it's neither "forced", nor "against their will". |
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Grey-Zone said: If they do something because they want to, then it isn't a "role" for them to fulfill.Red_Keys said: ^ If you don't hold this mindset, then this mindset becomes impossible v No. Believe it or not. There are people who actually naturally fit the gender roles without even being forced into them. If someone chooses to step into a gender role themselves, then it's neither "forced", nor "against their will". If Steph wants to be a housewife outside of all external influence (which is literally impossible, but we can ignore that), then that isn't anything to do with a "gender role". That's a "Steph role". When people have free will, there are no such things as gender roles. |
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| At the most basic physiological level, men's bodies are geared more toward "providing" (men gain muscles easier) and women's bodies are more geared toward child-rearing (the womb, feeding organs). Because of this, I don't think gender roles at their core are wrong. It's only in their more extreme forms that it becomes problematic: There's no reason to say women have to marry or that they can't take care of themselves, or further, if the man wants to take care of the kids and the woman is in love with her job, then there's no problem with that either. Contrariwise, men don't need to act "macho" (which generally just translates to obnoxiousness) or turn themselves into a hulk to "be a man". Still, I would say that in a basic sense, yes, "the man protects and the woman rears" holds true (and should), especially when it comes to a child's development. Both roles are important and necessary for a stable childhood. However, saying that men are better than women (in general), smarter than women, and similar claims are where it crosses into sexism. (Vice versa too.) Women do not exist just to serve or pleasure men. They do not exist "just" to raise children. They are human beings just like men, and while (as a man) I do think that women tend to receive less fair treatment then men, the downside to this is that when men aren't treated fairly, it tends to be overlooked more. How often do you hear about men getting raped or assaulted by women? It's not that it doesn't happen. Don't get me started on psychological pressure either; "control freaks" are bad on both sides of gender. All of that is to say I don't think it's so bad in anime. In fact, there are cases where the reverse is true, such as women beating men up "because it's funny" whereas it wouldn't be viewed the same by many if the genders were flipped. This doesn't really bother me, but to say it's one-sided is a bit much imo. Also, strength of character is something spread equally between men and women in anime from what I've seen. For as many weak-spirited women as there are in the medium, there are tons of weak-spirited men as well, and there are many cases of strong-spirited men and women also. Anyway, I don't think it's a problem in anime overall. I actually ended up saying I lot more than I planned on, so I'll cut myself off there. :x |
| There are no gender roles, it's all pretty much pure fiction. In Japan, the U.S., or anywhere. There is common kinds of personalities in males and females you see frequently, and less common ones, that's it. |
Red_Keys said: If they do something because they want to, then it isn't a "role" for them to fulfill. If Steph wants to be a housewife outside of all external influence (which is literally impossible, but we can ignore that), then that isn't anything to do with a "gender role". That's a "Steph role". When people have free will, there are no such things as gender roles. I see what you mean and as DrCoppelius mentioned, I probably worded that badly. I was talking less about "adapting to a role", but more about "a person's way of life coincidently being very similar to the gender role and being perceived by others (mistakenly) as a gender role". I mean people usually don't have perfect information and could come to false conclusions easily, like someone whose true nature is only "similar" to a gender role, but is being perceived as being formed by a gender role without any own input. |
Grey-ZoneJun 9, 2015 8:46 PM
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AttackOnTetris said: It's not just reversing roles. The female alien characters of the show are considered to be from a gender less society although they look female . They can shape shift so they can take on male forms as well. Only one has been shown doing this however.DrGeroCreation said: In Steven Universe the male mc has only defensive and healing abilities while the females have all the offensive abilities. I haven't see that type of gender role reversal in anime yet. Well that's why I said clever. I have not watched Steven Universe but simply reversing roles isn't exactly clever. Even Mikasa basically does that with her overprotective "white knight" tendencies toward Eren. HxH toys with them in ways I haven't seen in other medias. There's a lot of "female acts like gender-normative male" stuff in Western media which I got nothing against in principle, but I haven't seen much of subtly blurring/erasing the lines, and toying with gender expectations outside of sexual conduct. |
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DrCoppelius said: The creator of the show confirmed them as being genderless but it has never really been a main plot point or explored in depth.DrGeroCreation said: It's not just reversing roles. The female alien characters of the show are considered to be from a gender less society although they look female . They can shape shift so they can take on male forms as well. Only one has been shown doing this however. That's rather neat. I watched a few episodes a while back but I don't think it was ever brought up in the ones I watched. Is this explored more or is it just a background thing that affects the story here and there but never gets a more indepth exploration? |
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TripleSRank said: At the most basic physiological level, men's bodies are geared more toward "providing" (men gain muscles easier) True, in the third world. There is study about the differences between the male and female brain which concludes that females can do certain things better on average, and vice versa. Thus being not only great, but ideal, providers in the first world. and women's bodies are more geared toward child-rearing (the womb, feeding organs) Not all women want to have children, much less take the housewife role. The human genome did much of its evolution in the hunter-gatherer times where yes gender roles had a distinct purpose. This gives both males and females traits and abilities which serve no real purpose in a modernized world. The best we can try to do is let everyone pursue the life they wish to pursue, while allowing our greatest minds of all gender identities to keep innovating. |
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DrGeroCreation said: The creator of the show confirmed them as being genderless but it has never really been a main plot point or explored in depth. I can't add much more to this discussion but that is interesting even in the background. Especially considering it's a very mainstream show. |
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AttackOnTetris said: In the show also there was an episode where the male mc temporarily fused with his female friend to become a new being. The new being although had a female shape and look had combined physical features and personality traits from the both of them.DrGeroCreation said: The creator of the show confirmed them as being genderless but it has never really been a main plot point or explored in depth. I can't add much more to this discussion but that is interesting even in the background. Especially considering it's a very mainstream show. |
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AttackOnTetris said: Not all women want to have children, much less take the housewife role. Okay. Fess up. You only skimmed my post before replying, didn't you? I addressed that specifically twice. |
AttackOnTetris said: Mikasa's portrayal isn't sexist at all though imo, because it actually puts her in a role typically played by males, both in actions and emotions. I never understood why this was ever some sort of rationalisation. You are against gender stereotypes, yet by placing female character X in a male stereotype it's something positive? You don't see the same people who make this kind of statement say they loved how male character Y was placed in a female stereotype. The latter of which I could name a few, Kimi to Boku's Shun, Ryuuji from Toradora, even Raku from Nisekoi. I also find it stupid that people think anything that puts female characters in the spotlight is somehow "empowering" to women. It's people who make comments like that which ironically intensifies the stereotype, making people think that it's out of the ordinary for a female character to do something significant/out of stereotype. Sure there are plenty of stereotypical portrayals in anime, but most of them are very soft stereotypes and they aren't offensively sexist. They are no worse than racial stereotypes which are rampant in American TV dramas (which are all soft stereotypes most of the time and not offensive, if anything funny). |
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MintPanda said: I never understood why this was ever some sort of rationalisation. You are against gender stereotypes, yet by placing female character X in a male stereotype it's something positive? You don't see the same people who make this kind of statement say they loved how male character Y was placed in a female stereotype. The latter of which I could name a few, Kimi to Boku's Shun, Ryuuji from Toradora, even Raku from Nisekoi. I just said it wasn't sexist, and by that I meant it wasn't enforcing gender roles. She chose to be who she was out of her own free will. I haven't watched any of those shows you mentioned, but Armin is more or less the "female" and he's my favorite character in SnK. I also find it stupid that people think anything that puts female characters in the spotlight is somehow "empowering" to women. It's people who make comments like that which ironically intensifies the stereotype, making people think that it's out of the ordinary for a female character to do something significant/out of stereotype. And if it wasn't in the ordinary for anime females to all act like pathetic wimps, this problem wouldn't exist in the first place. Sure there are plenty of stereotypical portrayals in anime, but most of them are very soft stereotypes and they aren't offensively sexist. Tell that to those who are offended by the stereotypes. It is not your place to say what is and isn't "offensive". They are no worse than racial stereotypes which are rampant in American TV dramas (which are all soft stereotypes most of the time and not offensive, if anything funny). See comment above. |
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AttackOnTetris said: Sure there are plenty of stereotypical portrayals in anime, but most of them are very soft stereotypes and they aren't offensively sexist. Tell that to those who are offended by the stereotypes. It is not your place to say what is and isn't "offensive". By this logic, every fucking thing is offensive, because you can always find a person that in some way feels offended by it. |
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TripleSRank said: AttackOnTetris said: Not all women want to have children, much less take the housewife role. Okay. Fess up. You only skimmed my post before replying, didn't you? I addressed that specifically twice. Regardless of how many times you addressed it, the fact remains that physiology means very little in this modern world. There is no reason to tell people what role they should take in life when they can choose themselves out of free will. |
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Imaishi said: AttackOnTetris said: Tell that to those who are offended by the stereotypes. It is not your place to say what is and isn't "offensive". By this logic, every fucking thing is offensive, because you can always find a person that in some way feels offended by it. More like you just shouldn't make generalized statements about things being offensive or not offensive, because it is individuals getting offended. |
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AttackOnTetris said: Armin is more or less the "female" and he's my favorite character in SnK. Armin is female? HAHAHA. AttackOnTetris said: Tell that to those who are offended by the stereotypes. It is not your place to say what is and isn't "offensive". Then who's job is it? Anita Sarkeesian? Are you one of those people who condone the ostracizing of that NASA scientist who wore an "offensive" shirt? Just stop your white knight charade, it's embarassing. AttackOnTetris said: Regardless of how many times you addressed it, the fact remains that physiology means very little in this modern world. There is no reason to tell people what role they should take in life when they can choose themselves out of free will. Why? It's okay to completely ignore factual biology? Damn, this is a new level of ignorance. Not only did you not even take 30 seconds to read his post which wasn't even that long, you continued to assume he was being some sexist poster even after he blatantly pointed out you didn't read. |
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AttackOnTetris said: Tell that to those who are offended by the stereotypes. It is not your place to say what is and isn't "offensive". Then who's job is it? Anita Sarkeesian? Are you one of those people who condone the ostracizing of that NASA scientist who wore an "offensive" shirt? The people getting offended, obviously. "This offends me" "This does not offend me" The above statements are valid. Just stop your white knight charade, it's embarassing. Lol what? I'm curious. What gender do you think I am? Let's say I was a male. Who would I be "white knighting" here on a forum of other guys? Lol. You're ridiculous. AttackOnTetris said: Regardless of how many times you addressed it, the fact remains that physiology means very little in this modern world. There is no reason to tell people what role they should take in life when they can choose themselves out of free will. Why? It's okay to completely ignore factual biology? Damn, this is a new level of ignorance. Not only did you not even take 30 seconds to read his post which wasn't even that long, you continued to assume he was being some sexist poster even after he blatantly pointed out you didn't read. Learn to read context. Obviously physiology mentioned by the other poster is uncontroversial science, but the conclusions that gender-role-enforcers draw from it are bogus and unscientifically derived, so I am saying it doesn't matter in that context. Engineering society from premature airheaded conclusions (jumping from point A(science) to point B (supposed knowledge of ideal gender roles)) these gender enforcers are the anti-science ones. |
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AttackOnTetris said: Then who's job is it? Anita Sarkeesian? Are you one of those people who condone the ostracizing of that NASA scientist who wore an "offensive" shirt? The people getting offended, obviously. "This offends me" "This does not offend me" THAT offends me deeply. What you just said. Right there. Are you going to shut the fuck up, or is freedom of speech suddenly important to you? |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
| This is the type of thread I try my best to not get involved with. The tension is so high. |
DrCoppelius said: AttackOnTetris said: I actually think that anime easily offers the most hope compared to live action TV and Western cartoons. Where else can you find a story supposedly for a teenage boy demographic which deconstructs gender role enforcement more cleverly than Hunter x Hunter? And it still manages to be successful. Despite criticizing Hunter x Hunter in a previous thread, I would like to take all of it back and agree with you that it's great in the gender department. How.... Do people just drop common sense when it comes to HxH? Any other shounen thats popular with low female number would have been called sexist and shit. Whatever.. |
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icirate said: THAT offends me deeply. What you just said. Right there. Are you going to shut the fuck up, or is freedom of speech suddenly important to you? Straw man alert. Freedom of speech / open exchange of ideas is one of my most important values. |
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AttackOnTetris said: icirate said: THAT offends me deeply. What you just said. Right there. Are you going to shut the fuck up, or is freedom of speech suddenly important to you? Straw man alert. Freedom of speech / open exchange of ideas is one of my most important values. Sorry, I had you confused for someone that cared about not offending people more than they cared about being able to discuss ideas openly. Carry on. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
| I think that gender stereotypes/roles/expectations are total bullshit, and that particular traits/values/etc don't really define gender identity or representation as a whole. All of these ideas are social concepts, and social concepts and ideas and always changing/evolving. Being aware of these instances is important, discussing is just as important. I'm the same, I'm an optimistic person, and hold too much faith in anime so I'm always trying to find other reasons to like an adaption, but I will never excuse/defend obvious stereotypes and binary mentality. Same with gender roles and expectations in all mediums. Nice post, OP. |
arthurhahm said: I really wonder if it's okay to place gender roles on individuals, who are and will be, inherently different, despite sexual orientation. arthurhahm said: I would be happy to see, in the years to come, more animations that break patriarchal beliefs and social norms, and even further, but slightly unrelated, challenge society to push for egalitarianism among all walks of life. So you are okay with placing gender roles on individuals - as long as they're ones that you approve of. In this case ones that ignore sexual dimorphism. You aren't not pushing gender roles on people. You're just pushing for more monotonous ones. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
arthurhahm said: So what I'm saying, in simpler terms, is that females are inherently different from other females (due to different DNA and humanity's inability to understand another's consciousness) and vice versa. Well, obviously, but that doesn't address my response. My point was that you have taken on a facade of being against pushing gender roles onto people, but then in the next sentence advocate for pushing (egalitarian) gender roles onto people. People are all inherently different - which has little to do with that. Gender roles are societal ideals that people work towards. Pretending sexual dimorphism doesn't exist when constructing such gender roles (which you will always inevitably do anyway) is nothing short of an attempt at cultural anarchy. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
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