Mathias2001 said: So basically Vn purists think Very faithful + little monologues of Shirou + More Saber as punching bag = Bad adaptation. Damn, I wish my favorite series had this treatment(Well I mean that had an not so good adaptation), with this little amount of thing to actually complain about, a lot of fans of other novels/manga would be grateful. I mean, most of it is pretty faithful and what is not faithful is just nitpicking in the end (Except Shirou monologues), there are original anime scenes that make the route better, that animation and all of the good things about this anime adaptation, just thrown into the garbage because ''We don't have Shirou's monologue.'' Oh yeah, the studio worked really hard and it came out beautiful but ''We don't have Shirou's monologues.'' I mean seriously,yeah they failed on Shirou, but that is practicly the only worthy thing they failed about and even than, monologues don't go too well in an anime form(I mean long ones) and a lot of Shirou's monologues was pretty pointless and a lot of the exposition was pointless. They obviously improved on the writing quality, animation, art, pacing and character development(I mean, from everyone in exeption of Shirou). Not to forget how enjoyable it is compared to the VN but this is such an bad adaptation because ''No Shirou Monologues.'' From my viewpoint, this wasn't an adaptation that tried to follow the VN but be it's own thing. As an adaptation, you could consider it fine(I mean like 6/10) but as a standalone, it was stronger than the UBW route(In my opinion) In the end, I just find the Vn purists coming off as whiny since they have pretty good adaptations unlike most series fans yet they still find a way to whine. IN FZ, they were mad that people thought that an anime better than the VN of FSN was considered better than the VN of FSN In KNK, they were mad about the worst movie the 6th and while it wasn't even bad(It was the worst among the movie but not by far, not by far(It was very good)) In this, it's the Shirou's monologue (The less understandable out of the whiny things I heard) Trust me most VN readers really enjoy this series, it's only a select few who are being whiny little pricks. |
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KamiCity said: Trust me most VN readers really enjoy this series, it's only a select few who are being whiny little pricks. Also the most vocal ones, which is why it seems as if the "whole" VN fanbase thinks that, although it could as well NOT be the case. Not even Beast's Lair is so salty. |
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| Monologue argument#99999 that doesn't address the actual problems. |
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nocorras said: Monologue argument#99999 that doesn't address the actual problems. what are those, aside from maybe Shirou-Rin dynamics? |
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Grey-Zone said: nocorras said: Monologue argument#99999 that doesn't address the actual problems. what are those, aside from maybe Shirou-Rin dynamics? Characterization, and it doesn't have to come from monologues. We've done this argument 50 times this week alone. Are we really going to bring it up yet again? I'm just tired of the lolmonologuestrawman. |
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nocorras said: Characterization, and it doesn't have to come from monologues. We've done this argument 50 times this week alone. Are we really going to bring it up yet again? I'm just tired of the lolmonologuestrawman Well, I don't know about others, but I think the core elements were there. Also when reading the VN, there was too much of it. Also most of the arguments I seen about this were always some way or another a comparison to the VN, while mostly talking about how a person who didn't read the VN would perceive it. I think that is a pointless thing to do, because VN readers have VN knowledge to fall back to and for anime-only-viewers the comparisons are irrelevant, since they never read the VN. In other words, no people exist on earth who those arguments actually apply to. Anything aside from that is either: -Direct comparisons to the VN (which is at most an aspect to the anime's quality, but definitly not all of it) -Perception of anime-only-viewers (I am still convinced that VN readers can not emulate them, no matter how much they insist on it) -Technical things and directing (which people will never agree on, because of incomplete information about what happens behind the scenes) -hype -salt -denial of reality -baiting -nonsense -Unlimited Sarcasm Works |
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| Except I watch an episode and don't rely on VN knowledge as much as possible and I make a judgement based on how I see it. An anime should stand on its own and I treat it like that. |
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nocorras said: I don't think he was referring to you specifically.Except I watch an episode and don't rely on VN knowledge as much as possible and I make a judgement based on how I see it. An anime should stand on its own and I treat it like that. |
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nocorras said: Except I watch an episode and don't rely on VN knowledge as much as possible and I make a judgement based on how I see it. An anime should stand on its own and I treat it like that. That doesn't work though. Someone who has VN knowledge will always look for a connection to the VN, even if sub-consiously. You can get an impression with that, but that is the impression of a "VN reader who emulates an anime-only-viewer". It is still not the impression of an "actual anime-only-viewer". Trying to treat both of these people as the "same type" will only results in things like Fai's "predictions about perceptions". Also when it comes to MAL's "tier" I would see it as... let's just say "low middle-class", as it still is above imageboards and video comment sections, but it's not as civil as other forums like AS. Upside is a relatively high amount of users. |
Grey-ZoneApr 9, 2015 8:58 PM
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Grey-Zone said: nocorras said: Except I watch an episode and don't rely on VN knowledge as much as possible and I make a judgement based on how I see it. An anime should stand on its own and I treat it like that. That doesn't work though. Someone who has VN knowledge will always look for a connection to the VN, even if sub-consiously. You can get an impression with that, but that is the impression of a "VN reader who emulates an anime-only-viewer". It is still not the impression of an "actual anime-only-viewer". Trying to treat both of these people as the "same type" will only results in things like Fai's "predictions about perceptions". Also when it comes to MAL's "tier" I would see it as... let's just say "low middle-class", as it still is above imageboards and video comment sections, but it's not as civil as other forums like AS. Upside is a relatively high amount of users. I'm not trying to emulate an actual anime only viewer and think what they think, I already know this is impossible. I'm trying to watch the episode while not making connections, that's it. "It wasn't like this in the VN" does not come up in my mind while watching the episode, I watch it for what it is to the best of my ability and make judgments based on that. My perception of the Archer betrayal in the anime was 100% different than what it was in the VN when I first read it. I really don't care what you think about the criticism or 'what class' we're in to you. |
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| (The last paragraph of my previous post was just adressing the comment above mine, it was not adressed to you.) @back2topic: The question is, are the changes BAD? Won't a less suspicious Archer make the twist later on even more intense? Well guess we have to agree to disagree here, else it would take up infinite space, to argue about what will be shown in a few weeks anyway, again. |
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Grey-Zone said: (The last paragraph of my previous post was just adressing the comment above mine, it was not adressed to you.) @back2topic: The question is, are the changes BAD? Won't a less suspicious Archer make the twist later on even more intense? Well guess we have to agree to disagree here, else it would take up infinite space, to argue about what will be shown in a few weeks anyway, again. Oh, I skipped over it for yours, sorry. And his argument is another strawman, so really not worth reading. I'm going to get hay fever if these things keep popping up. |
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nocorras said: Oh, I skipped over it for yours, sorry. And his argument is another strawman, so really not worth reading. I'm going to get hay fever if these things keep popping up. That's why I only adressed what I think was worth adressing once. I mean it's like Dr. G said: "too much of something is bad" (may have gotten the last word or so wrong.) |
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nocorras said: Grey-Zone said: That doesn't work though. Someone who has VN knowledge will always look for a connection to the VN, even if sub-consiously. You can get an impression with that, but that is the impression of a "VN reader who emulates an anime-only-viewer". It is still not the impression of an "actual anime-only-viewer". Trying to treat both of these people as the "same type" will only results in things like Fai's "predictions about perceptions". Also when it comes to MAL's "tier" I would see it as... let's just say "low middle-class", as it still is above imageboards and video comment sections, but it's not as civil as other forums like AS. Upside is a relatively high amount of users. I'm not trying to emulate an actual anime only viewer and think what they think, I already know this is impossible. I'm trying to watch the episode while not making connections, that's it. "It wasn't like this in the VN" does not come up in my mind while watching the episode, I watch it for what it is to the best of my ability and make judgments based on that. My perception of the Archer betrayal in the anime was 100% different than what it was in the VN when I first read it. I really don't care what you think about the criticism or 'what class' we're in to you. It didn't feel 100% different to me but it did feel rather different from what I remembered. But then I just reread that scene through the archive and suddenly the difference I'm feeling doesn't seem nearly as big anymore. Yes this adaptation has some scenes and information that were clearly omitted when they shouldn't have been and negatively impact the anime as a result, but be careful not to let nostalgia get in the way or the fault the experience that the anime provides for not being like a VN experience. |
ZeroDragonApr 9, 2015 9:47 PM
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| Idk seems off to me and I haven't even re-read it in the VN since the episode aired. |
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nocorras said: Idk seems off to me and I haven't even re-read it in the VN since the episode aired. |
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ZeroDragon said: nocorras said: Idk seems off to me and I haven't even re-read it in the VN since the episode aired. He states the reason to Caster in that scene in VN |
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| Didn't they just out-right say this anime is supposed to just adapt and show the VN visually. I mean, yes, this anime does feel pretty bad if you compare scenes to the VN directly as in monologues and all included and it does tend to bring some unneeded hate from anime only people who don't understand some things without the monologues and expansive explanations that the VN has. But it does have it's enjoyment factor and aside from some things like power-levels, it shows the events just fine visually and I'm also sure that it brought quite a bit of new fans into the VN just like it brought quite a bit of new haters. TL;DR; Works fine as a visual medium adaption and is pretty enjoyable if you don't give a shit about what the haters will say about the series afterwards. Doesn't work fine in terms of character depth and characterization (monologues, etc.) and is probably not enjoyable at all if you spend too much time thinking what people will say about the series afterwards. |
MightyM16 said: black1blade said: I wonder if anything will ever match kara no kyoukai's quality HF movie most likely UFO said it would be their best work GOD i hope this is true. that would be like the cherry on top. F/Z + HF = one of the best anime series of all time. |
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WAD1992 said: MightyM16 said: HF movie most likely UFO said it would be their best work GOD i hope this is true. that would be like the cherry on top. F/Z + HF = one of the best anime series of all time. Don't forget UBW :3 |
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OneTrueEmiya said: don't make me laughWAD1992 said: GOD i hope this is true. that would be like the cherry on top. F/Z + HF = one of the best anime series of all time. Don't forget UBW :3 ubw was bad enough before ufotable touched it |
| BAN ME |
MyNameIsJeff said: OneTrueEmiya said: don't make me laughDon't forget UBW :3 ubw was bad enough before ufotable touched it It had |
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WormPriest said: Didn't they just out-right say this anime is supposed to just adapt and show the VN visually. I mean, yes, this anime does feel pretty bad if you compare scenes to the VN directly as in monologues and all included and it does tend to bring some unneeded hate from anime only people who don't understand some things without the monologues and expansive explanations that the VN has. True magic level gandrs. So no. |
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ijuka said: chat77 said: --snip-- The Fate route felt more like an introductory route to me to better understand UBW and HF That's almost exactly how I understood it. Like a tutorial to introduce the rules and how it might go. Overall, it really is quite boring... very boring, even, but since you're new to the concept it's going to still be fresh simply because of that. However, as a story it just doesn't do the trick at all and hence only really works in that role. On the other hand, being introduced to those themes while dealing with what UBW has to offer might be too overwhelming, so it's still a recommended read. But it was the introductory route Without Fate, UBW and HF falls apart Without Fate and UBW , HF falls apart It's a build up All routes are necessary |
MightyM16 said: ijuka said: That's almost exactly how I understood it. Like a tutorial to introduce the rules and how it might go. Overall, it really is quite boring... very boring, even, but since you're new to the concept it's going to still be fresh simply because of that. However, as a story it just doesn't do the trick at all and hence only really works in that role. On the other hand, being introduced to those themes while dealing with what UBW has to offer might be too overwhelming, so it's still a recommended read. But it was the introductory route Without Fate, UBW and HF falls apart Without Fate and UBW , HF falls apart It's a build up All routes are necessary Sure, which I recognize, but that doesn't mean I have to consider them to be -equal- which I do not. |
| "When they're alive, you can enjoy watching them struggle. When they're dead, you can enjoy tearing out their guts. Tales are things you get to enjoy twice." |
CookingPriest said: WormPriest said: Didn't they just out-right say this anime is supposed to just adapt and show the VN visually. I mean, yes, this anime does feel pretty bad if you compare scenes to the VN directly as in monologues and all included and it does tend to bring some unneeded hate from anime only people who don't understand some things without the monologues and expansive explanations that the VN has. True magic level gandrs. So no. Already said that power-levels are fucked up and there's no excuse for that. |
ijuka said: MightyM16 said: But it was the introductory route Without Fate, UBW and HF falls apart Without Fate and UBW , HF falls apart It's a build up All routes are necessary Sure, which I recognize, but that doesn't mean I have to consider them to be -equal- which I do not. Yes, they are not equal As I said it's a build up HF > UBW > Fate though by no means any of them are bad, and each route can only achieve it's true potential thanks to the combination of all of them For example, Shirou's actions HF seems less impacting if we didn't go through his ordeals in Fate and UBW, Without Saber's development in Fate, is just a simple boss fight and so on... |
WormPriest said: CookingPriest said: True magic level gandrs. So no. Already said that power-levels are fucked up and there's no excuse for that. Thanks to this we are going to get Shinji rekting things and showing who is boss You won't see me complaining |
| The Shinji thing is just amazing. Literally the best thing that could have possibly happened. |
WormPriest said: CookingPriest said: True magic level gandrs. So no. Already said that power-levels are fucked up and there's no excuse for that. Shirou stumbling and falling on his face and being passive idiot dos not get better even with VN knowledge. Only worse. |
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CookingPriest said: There's nothing wrong with Fate Shirou, apart from him being weaker and being distraught as fuck for half the story(for obvious reasons considering HOW his story begins compared to UBW Shirou). IF we go by lameness points(from least lame to most): UBW Canon Shirou = 0 HF Canon Shirou = 5 Fate Canon Shirou = 9 UfoUBW Shirou = 100 DEENFSN Shirou = 120 What are you on about? HF Shirou being lamer aside (because he is more awesome), Fate Shirou is much much lamer then UfoUBW Shirou. |
| So why is more votes for no faith than faith?!~ |
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CloudStrifeFFVII said: So why is more votes for no faith than faith?!~ The question for the poll is "Has this adaptation shattered your faith in ufotable X type moon being amazing?" Now it wouldn't surprise me if some/several misunderstood it and just went by the thread title alone, "faith in ufotable"... |
CloudStrifeFFVII said: Your post made me realize that there's a poll in this thread.So why is more votes for no faith than faith?!~ |
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CloudStrifeFFVII said: So why is more votes for no faith than faith?!~ The question is: Has this adaptation shattered your faith in ufotable X type moon being amazing? |
Shrimperor said: CookingPriest said: There's nothing wrong with Fate Shirou, apart from him being weaker and being distraught as fuck for half the story(for obvious reasons considering HOW his story begins compared to UBW Shirou). IF we go by lameness points(from least lame to most): UBW Canon Shirou = 0 HF Canon Shirou = 5 Fate Canon Shirou = 9 UfoUBW Shirou = 100 DEENFSN Shirou = 120 What are you on about? HF Shirou being lamer aside (because he is more awesome), Fate Shirou is much much lamer then UfoUBW Shirou. Not really Fate Shirou starts at lowpoint and the bounces back up becoming competent and reliable as fuck. Boundary field confrontation is one of the most badass scenes ever. |
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Meanwhile at studio Ufotable |
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CookingPriest said: Shrimperor said: What are you on about? HF Shirou being lamer aside (because he is more awesome), Fate Shirou is much much lamer then UfoUBW Shirou. Not really Fate Shirou starts at lowpoint and the bounces back up becoming competent and reliable as fuck. Boundary field confrontation is one of the most badass scenes ever. One of the reasons that make me hope for Fate route to be properly animated in the future |
CookingPriest said: Not really Fate Shirou starts at lowpoint and the bounces back up becoming competent and reliable as fuck. Boundary field confrontation is one of the most badass scenes ever. What annoys me about Fate!Shirou are his "battles", which IMO lacked in variety. All of the battles can be summarized with 5 phrases: |
Grey-ZoneApr 10, 2015 6:27 PM
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Grey-Zone said: CookingPriest said: Not really Fate Shirou starts at lowpoint and the bounces back up becoming competent and reliable as fuck. Boundary field confrontation is one of the most badass scenes ever. What annoys me about Fate!Shirou are his "battles", which IMO lacked in variety. All of the battles can be summarized with 5 phrases: Fate route was the introductory route only, so it's quite fine for it to show only a little grasp of Shirou's abillities, it's mainly to estabilish how humans are totally weaker than servants |
| Fate shirou is not about fights. It is more survival/psychological thriller kind of route. the fights that are most important are in his mind |
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CookingPriest said: Fate shirou is not about fights. It is more survival/psychological thriller kind of route. the fights that are most important are in his mind Does not sound like something that could be adapted into anime form, without damaging the core element a lot, even if it was the best possible adaption that can be made with 2 cours. |
Grey-ZoneApr 10, 2015 8:14 PM
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Grey-Zone said: Does not sounds like something that could be adapted into anime form, without damaging the core element a lot, even if it was the best possible adaption that can be made with 2 cours. That's partly why Nasu said some changes had to be made if they intended to adapt it |
Grey-Zone said: For the last one, this has been talked about before but to summarizeCookingPriest said: Not really Fate Shirou starts at lowpoint and the bounces back up becoming competent and reliable as fuck. Boundary field confrontation is one of the most badass scenes ever. What annoys me about Fate!Shirou are his "battles", which IMO lacked in variety. All of the battles can be summarized with 5 phrases: |
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MightyM16 said: Grey-Zone said: What annoys me about Fate!Shirou are his "battles", which IMO lacked in variety. All of the battles can be summarized with 5 phrases: Fate route was the introductory route only, so it's quite fine for it to show only a little grasp of Shirou's abillities, it's mainly to estabilish how humans are totally weaker than servants |
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Grey-Zone said: CookingPriest said: Fate shirou is not about fights. It is more survival/psychological thriller kind of route. the fights that are most important are in his mind Does not sound like something that could be adapted into anime form, without damaging the core element a lot, even if it was the best possible adaption that can be made with 2 cours. Not really.It just needs a good director that can portray atmosphere and spend a lot of time in character's heads. |
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CookingPriest said: Grey-Zone said: Does not sound like something that could be adapted into anime form, without damaging the core element a lot, even if it was the best possible adaption that can be made with 2 cours. Not really.It just needs a good director that can portray atmosphere and spend a lot of time in character's heads. It would basically require constant monologues, which would bore a lot of viewers. |
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OneTrueEmiya said: MightyM16 said: Fate route was the introductory route only, so it's quite fine for it to show only a little grasp of Shirou's abillities, it's mainly to estabilish how humans are totally weaker than servants Exactly |
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