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#1
Dec 18, 2014 11:55 AM

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1. Did Kamui really die or not? On the credits roll, he was shown inside a prison cell blocking his right face.

2. What's this "collective "Psycho-Pass the're talking about? I'm confused about this.
'
'3. Did Mika saw the real Sibyl System (brains)? Her reactions on the next episode says so. I forgot to skip on the last minute of that episode. Just need a clarification.
 
#2
Dec 18, 2014 11:59 AM

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1)That was Shisui
2)I'm not sure, but they talked about the possibility of a massive collection of brains joining Sibyl system at once. I'm really confosed about this one too.
3)Yes, she saw.
 
#3
Dec 18, 2014 12:34 PM

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2. It had something to do with allowing a group to be judged as one and not just each individual.
 
#4
Dec 18, 2014 12:46 PM

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I'm also REALLY confused about what they meant by collective Psycho-Pass.

Ok, here is my interpretation:


Something tells me I completely missed the mark. Tell me if I'm wrong or if there's anything missing here please ^^

{TCO}::..::{Listen}::..::{CCO}

 
#5
Dec 18, 2014 12:53 PM
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2. Someday, when Sybil gains enough "manpower"(brains), it will be able to see the color of the entire society, not just a single individual. That way, even if in a city of 5 million people 60% are clear, there is a possibility that the city is painted black. It will probably have to do with the lifestyle. I guess that's why Kamui wanted Sybil to gain the knowledge of massive judgement. Because eventually Sybil itself will turn black from the cruel and fasist way it controls society. That's what i understood anyway.

I have another question, though. How did Kamui's associate get grandma's ear in episode 10?
 
#6
Dec 18, 2014 12:54 PM

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mbdsquad said:
1. Did Kamui really die or not? On the credits roll, he was shown inside a prison cell blocking his right face.

2. What's this "collective "Psycho-Pass the're talking about? I'm confused about this.
'
'3. Did Mika saw the real Sibyl System (brains)? Her reactions on the next episode says so. I forgot to skip on the last minute of that episode. Just need a clarification.

1. He exploded on camera
2. Basically exactly what it means. A Psycho-Pass for all of japan. Any individuals who contribute to the raising of that Psycho-Pass will need to be dealt with. So it's not really that much different from before since everyone will carry on with their lives as normal and all the criminally enforceable folks will be judged.
3. Yes
 
#7
Dec 18, 2014 1:22 PM

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-Akie said:
I'm also REALLY confused about what they meant by collective Psycho-Pass.

Ok, here is my interpretation:


Something tells me I completely missed the mark. Tell me if I'm wrong or if there's anything missing here please ^^

Yes this is true but I'll just add tht when a "collective pyscho-pass" was accepted by the Sybil System,
This would mean if there's a group or organization of people with high psycho-pass they will be judge even if some of them are clear.
Haters always gonna hate.
 
#8
Dec 18, 2014 1:25 PM
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A collective psycho-pass means that a collective is being judged, not an individual. This is tautological, and not very helpful, so I'll be more exact in how I interpret it.

When we think of what it means to judge *someone*, we think of judging that specific person--what he's done, what he plans to do, why he did what he did and plans what he wants to do, etc. We draw our judgment off a reading of him as a single individual, as a person.

Collectively, though, this fails. When Sibyl wanted to judge Kamui, it couldn't judge him as one person.
-Akie said:
I'm also REALLY confused about what they meant by collective Psycho-Pass.

Ok, here is my interpretation:


Something tells me I completely missed the mark. Tell me if I'm wrong or if there's anything missing here please ^^


You kinda did. What is meant by a "collective psycho-pass" is a judgment on the collective, rather than an individual. This is tautological, so I'll be more descriptive by how I read it.

In the past (and here's where you're right) a psycho-pass was an individual judgment. We were judged based on what we did or would do as specific persons. We alone are responsible for what actions we have performed, are performing, or will perform--at least that's the philosophy behind the individual psycho-pass. We can only be judged because we are responsible. If we're being coerced, judgment wouldn't make sense, right? Or at least be morally acceptable, right? The idea isn't that they are morally responsible for who they are, of course. That's why even people in highly emotional states can be judged. Rather, the responsibility rests on some idea of conversability (sp?): we can be judged for our actions if we can recognize our actions as wrong, or can at least discuss the moral values of our actions. (It goes far deeper than this, but that's a rough idea.) So, people in high emotional states aren't killed, but they are judged by Sibyl; people who go out of their way to plan actions in advance and carry them out are judged more severely, and people who deliberate, act, and are conversible are judged even more severely (enforcers tend to fit this bill). Those who generally are NOT conversible (Makishima from S1) tend to be "criminally asymptomatic". They don't feel any remorse or hesitation in committing the crimes, and so they are brought in to make Sibyl itself more conversible about those crimes (so it can judge them appropriately). (Togane recognizes everything he does is a horrible crime, but desires to be evil; he is technically conversible, and this is reflected in his color.)

Kamui (and Sibyl itself), however, present very different problems to this system. See, Kamui isn't an individual responsible for his actions (and neither is Sibyl--let's bundle them together for now). His actions are those of a collective entity. Any action Kamui performs is deliberated on and acted on as 180 people. His conversability is reliant on accounting for all 180 individuals that make up Kamui being included in the dialogue. An individual psycho-pass cannot account for this. A collective psycho-pass, however, can. It can say that each member is responsible for the group; that the group's actions are sufficient to judge the member's. We can judge Kamui under a collective psycho-pass, because we are now judging each individual not as an individual, but as a member of the collective. So, that's why every individual can have a psycho-pass reading of 0 and still be judged. The judgment is no longer based on the level of your psycho-pass, but the psycho-pass of the collective to which you belong.

The best example of this I can think of is how we judge nations, especially in times of war. See, we don't think that any individual American is responsible for the torture report, for example; however, America as a nation is certainly responsible for torture (we carried it out, didn't we?), and that's why we are disavowing this as part of who we are. For if who we are is a nation that tortures, we can all be fairly judged as members of this nation--even if we don't like torture ourselves, and disavow it avidly.

As another example, the Iran sanctions for its (alleged) nuclear program are a judgment of Iran as a whole. We don't think that the average Iranian is responsible; we might think his 'psycho-pass" is clear--is 0. But that's not what's important under this collective judgment. What matters is that Iran is a collective entity: it includes not just Khamenei and the government, but the citizens, too. And when it acts, there is no way to punish the government without punishing also the citizens. That is, if we want to adequately judge nations, we cannot just judge the individuals in charge; we need to judge *everybody*, even if it's not fair to the less influential citizens (who have no actual participation in the policies we're judging the nation for).

Going back to Psycho-Pass, why this now matters (and why it's now a large problem), is that we're now treating collectives like individuals. So, Kamui looks like a person, but he isn't (exactly) one person. He is a group acting as one. Because of this, we're treating the members of collectives as parts of a person. That is, because we're now treating collectives as persons, we can cast judgment on people who are not related to the actual crimes. What's really problematic, then, is that not only can Sibyl be judged, but the city itself can be judged for Sibyl's actions. It doesn't matter if you agree with Sibyl, if you are part of this larger collective. Furthermore (and more problematically for Sibyl), the people can now judge Sibyl. They can determine whether this perfect system is right or wrong; whether to trust its judgment. Sibyl is no longer the decider of all things; the power is being removed from Sibyl and being entrusted back to the people. Sibyl was supposed to reign sovereign. Its word was to be unquestionable. Now, however, Sibyl is no loner sovereign; it is no longer above the judgment of society.

This is how I understand it, at any rate.
 
#9
Dec 18, 2014 1:39 PM

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Not to deter from the original post, but what was with the whole Kamui's friend having Akane's grandmas ear stuff but Togane being the one who abducted her?
Jaywalker.
 
Dec 18, 2014 2:26 PM
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Mine question is how Togane Misako`s psycho-pass suddenly increased over 300 while she is criminally asymphtomatic? The same about another brain from Sybil that Kamui pointed dominator at. My first intrerpretation was that Sybil just judned itself as an entity, not just single criminally asymphtomatic brians, but that just doesn`t make sense, beacuse it suddenly decreased to 0
 
Dec 18, 2014 2:33 PM

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-Akie said:
I'm also REALLY confused about what they meant by collective Psycho-Pass.

Ok, here is my interpretation:


Something tells me I completely missed the mark. Tell me if I'm wrong or if there's anything missing here please ^^


That's right.
The problem is that the writer just threw out all the rules established in season 1.
Sibyl cleared out the black coloured brains among itself, but the whole point was that the brains couldn't be coloured and were asymptotic in the first place. It seems that most of the stuff was just for shock value.

But as Tougane said, it was all done in the name of love. Love makes the world go round.
"Let Justice Be Done!"

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I conclude that this theme is in fact good!
 
Dec 18, 2014 2:34 PM
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ChocolateEater said:
Mine question is how Togane Misako`s psycho-pass suddenly increased over 300 while she is criminally asymphtomatic? The same about another brain from Sybil that Kamui pointed dominator at. My first intrerpretation was that Sybil just judned itself as an entity, not just single criminally asymphtomatic brians, but that just doesn`t make sense, beacuse it suddenly decreased to 0


I guess that after a certain point even criminally asymptomatic people can have their psycho pass risen. it probably has to do with something extremely bad happening to them, like when togane lost his mother and had his psycho pass elevated.
After Sybil got rid of the "problematic brains" it's collective psycho pass returned to normal.
 
Dec 18, 2014 2:40 PM

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Epicenter said:
Not to deter from the original post, but what was with the whole Kamui's friend having Akane's grandmas ear stuff but Togane being the one who abducted her?

I'm curious about that, too..
I'd think based on Togane's confession to murdering her, something like putting up a fight, perhaps she lost an ear and stuff during the capture and Kamui found it and gave it to his friend.
 
Dec 18, 2014 2:47 PM

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ChocolateEater said:
Mine question is how Togane Misako`s psycho-pass suddenly increased over 300 while she is criminally asymphtomatic? The same about another brain from Sybil that Kamui pointed dominator at. My first intrerpretation was that Sybil just judned itself as an entity, not just single criminally asymphtomatic brians, but that just doesn`t make sense, beacuse it suddenly decreased to 0


My understanding of this was that the entire Sybil had a collective Psycho-Pass of >300, even though individual brains were asymptomatic. It dropped to zero because Sybil chose to expel some of the brains, apparently those which were causing it to have a high Psycho-Pass, though how it determined this is not stated. Overall, this season just seemed more muddled than the original, so some things don't always make as much sense. Just MHO.
 
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