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Can an anime be objectively good or objectively bad?

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Dec 14, 2014 2:09 PM

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mayukachan said:
Mikasa said:


Yes I am.

Stahp.

It's okay, I respect you because of our HxH and SSY mutuals.




You wouldn't respect me otherwise :O

T.T ok

 
Dec 14, 2014 2:29 PM

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Facepalm
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:31 PM

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Dec 14, 2014 2:50 PM

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nucleon said:
it's a waste of time as some will always say this is the best art in their lives
https://33.media.tumblr.com/d6cca7dbbb8f28365849564e21ebdf67/tumblr_nglf7qiL9n1tzosuao1_400.jpg

She looks kinda cute though

 
Dec 14, 2014 2:53 PM

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Objectively good? Yeah, but you know, opinions and assholes. Objectively bad? Technically, no. But I cringe at rampant subjectivism. When paint thrown on a canvas, repeated Campbell's soup icons, and a guy standing in a corner with an apple in his mouth is hailed as creative genius (and sell for millions)...I should have been an "artist."
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:01 PM

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nucleon said:
Gymkata said:
Objectively good? Yeah, but you know, opinions and assholes. Objectively bad? Technically, no. But I cringe at rampant subjectivism. When paint thrown on a canvas, repeated Campbell's soup icons, and a guy standing in a corner with an apple in his mouth is hailed as creative genius (and sell for millions)...I should have been an "artist."


humanism
https://38.media.tumblr.com/b31f9141dca2732b4af91951930d6a8b/tumblr_nglf8aEWUp1tzosuao1_1280.png
WTF WHAT VN IS THIS?
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:04 PM

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VitaminCaim said:
nucleon said:


humanism
https://38.media.tumblr.com/b31f9141dca2732b4af91951930d6a8b/tumblr_nglf8aEWUp1tzosuao1_1280.png
WTF WHAT VN IS THIS?

http://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/5223/is-this-image-of-a-mis-proportionally-drawn-girl-from-an-anime

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

watch nodame cantabile

recommend me anything!
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:19 PM

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nucleon said:
Gymkata said:
Objectively good? Yeah, but you know, opinions and assholes. Objectively bad? Technically, no. But I cringe at rampant subjectivism. When paint thrown on a canvas, repeated Campbell's soup icons, and a guy standing in a corner with an apple in his mouth is hailed as creative genius (and sell for millions)...I should have been an "artist."


bad is far easier to notice

head 'spinning'
https://33.media.tumblr.com/f8147d18025f4e5761ea2773274ff658/tumblr_nglf7qiL9n1tzosuao9_r1_1280.jpg

gigantic eyes
https://33.media.tumblr.com/db67a598bd087139eab49f210167bebc/tumblr_nglf7qiL9n1tzosuao7_r1_1280.jpg

humanism
https://38.media.tumblr.com/b31f9141dca2732b4af91951930d6a8b/tumblr_nglf8aEWUp1tzosuao1_1280.png

their tough school life
https://33.media.tumblr.com/0469d50bc1bbec2ccc807e41ad5f76c9/tumblr_nglgxpMjkt1tzosuao1_1280.jpg

cloning
https://33.media.tumblr.com/356624d90289c78ca2c56f2d4fc0d226/tumblr_nglgxpMjkt1tzosuao7_400.jpg

shingeki no classmate
https://38.media.tumblr.com/dc76f0108b41da17e5b02d5d6b9662f3/tumblr_nglgdyWrm41tzosuao9_400.jpg

That second and third...Lmao. Just, wow.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:21 PM

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mayukachan said:
VitaminCaim said:
WTF WHAT VN IS THIS?

http://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/5223/is-this-image-of-a-mis-proportionally-drawn-girl-from-an-anime
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:21 PM

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Of course not. Art is always subjective. That's it.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:31 PM

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☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

watch nodame cantabile

recommend me anything!
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:59 PM

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There is no possible way to defend this as quality voice acting. It is not factually bad, but let's look at what is factual- 1+1=2, the sky is blue, humans need air to live. This required no thinking, it is something that just is. In this sense, the voice acting being bad is not objective. But what also isn't objective? Is it objectively wrong to kill someone? No, it isn't. It is only when we apply standards and reasoning can we say killing causes pain and discomfort which humans don't like and for those reasons killing is wrong. Should we ignore all that because one sociopath thinks killing is okay thus making it not objective?

In the case of the voice acting, when standards are put in place you could not make any sort argument with merit that it is quality and the application of standards is something that everyone does whether they realize it or not. You could say that not everyone has the same standards, but realistically speaking 99.9% of people would say the voice acting is bad by their own standards. The difference in standards would have to be so extreme to see it as good, that there would had to have been a big variable in their thought process to make a person think that way to begin with. When someone says it's all subjective they are essentially saying "Well, one person might not agree on it." Because of this we should disregard all common sense and conventional wisdom? Absolutely not. With critical thinking and analysis, there can be measures and conclusions reached, and in this sense it is objective. The worst thing in art is to think that because there are no absolute facts it is immune to criticism and standards.


 
Dec 14, 2014 4:05 PM

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baki502 said:
Which is why I said simplyfied since there are so many factors. Which is why there are so many discussions. But to say that everything is completely subjective is wrong. If someone comes and says Mars of Destruction is better than FMA:BH to consider that statement just as correct and valid as someone saying the opposite I cannot accept.
I think FMA:BH is objectively better than MoD.

Have you ever typed Objectivity into Wikipedia? You get this:

Objectivity can refer to:

Objectivity (journalism)
Objectivity (science)
Objectivity (philosophy)
Objectivity (frame invariance)
Objectivity in historiography

Which shows that objectivity can mean different things in diffirent fields. And I think for artforms, my summary of in my other post describes the meaning of objectivity in the context of storytelling mediums, a commonly agreed on set of standards. It might not be objective in the truest sense of the word, but it is something close to it.

Which doesnt mean that anime can be 100% rated objectively. But its not 100% subjective either. I think you cannot assert as how to be objectively a 7/10. But I think you can go as far as to generally "objectively" say wheter it was bad, average or good.
Yes someone can say that, it's pretty stupid not to accept someone's opinion just because it goes against the general views. No anime is factually better. Just because something is generally accepted doesn't make it a fact.

No, typing random words into Wikipedia isn't one of my hobbies.

Objectivity is objectivity. Something either is subjective or is objective.
 
Dec 14, 2014 4:20 PM

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IntroverTurtle said:
baki502 said:
Which is why I said simplyfied since there are so many factors. Which is why there are so many discussions. But to say that everything is completely subjective is wrong. If someone comes and says Mars of Destruction is better than FMA:BH to consider that statement just as correct and valid as someone saying the opposite I cannot accept.
I think FMA:BH is objectively better than MoD.

Have you ever typed Objectivity into Wikipedia? You get this:

Objectivity can refer to:

Objectivity (journalism)
Objectivity (science)
Objectivity (philosophy)
Objectivity (frame invariance)
Objectivity in historiography

Which shows that objectivity can mean different things in diffirent fields. And I think for artforms, my summary of in my other post describes the meaning of objectivity in the context of storytelling mediums, a commonly agreed on set of standards. It might not be objective in the truest sense of the word, but it is something close to it.

Which doesnt mean that anime can be 100% rated objectively. But its not 100% subjective either. I think you cannot assert as how to be objectively a 7/10. But I think you can go as far as to generally "objectively" say wheter it was bad, average or good.
Yes someone can say that, it's pretty stupid not to accept someone's opinion just because it goes against the general views. No anime is factually better. Just because something is generally accepted doesn't make it a fact.

No, typing random words into Wikipedia isn't one of my hobbies.

Objectivity is objectivity. Something either is subjective or is objective.


Well I suppose we wont reach a consensus on this one. To me your view on it is too black and white.
 
Dec 14, 2014 4:23 PM

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First of all, it depends, objectively "good" and "bad" are subjective themselves. So we can already cut them off the list. But for example, if we speak from a profitable and pandering point of view, you can say a "bad anime" is an anime that is not pandering to a grand amount of individuals thus, it is not profitable (also considering it's budget obviously and other details, I know I'm making this a small issue), while a "good anime" is the opposite.

Other factors, like enjoyment can never be objective. Quality can never be objective if you take into consideration subjective standards.

Baki, objectiveness depends on the context too. The way you're talking is purely subjective.




Autocrat said:
Hitler was good, objectively.
 
Dec 14, 2014 4:24 PM

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baki502 said:
Well I suppose we wont reach a consensus on this one. To me your view on it is too black and white.
There are multiple definitions of the word "objective". One where it means simply facts, and another that is more along the lines of critical analysis. To put it short you are both right.


 
Dec 14, 2014 4:26 PM

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Shrabster said:
baki502 said:
Well I suppose we wont reach a consensus on this one. To me your view on it is too black and white.
There are multiple definitions of the word "objective". One where it means simply facts, and another that is more along the lines of critical analysis. To put it short you are both right.
Where'd you get that shit from?




Autocrat said:
Hitler was good, objectively.
 
Dec 14, 2014 4:27 PM

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I think the problem is how people retardedly use the word.


A person judges something objectively, without bias.

Something can't be objectively more [x quality] other than to say that "one person , from an objective point, sees this as a more [x quality] than the other"

The fact is the lack of bias, not the undeniable truth of superiority.

 
Dec 14, 2014 4:29 PM

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You can't judge art without bias because what constitutes art are mostly subjective characteristics.




Autocrat said:
Hitler was good, objectively.
 
Dec 14, 2014 4:33 PM

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Immahnoob said:
Shrabster said:
There are multiple definitions of the word "objective". One where it means simply facts, and another that is more along the lines of critical analysis. To put it short you are both right.
Where'd you get that shit from?


Here.


 
Dec 14, 2014 4:40 PM

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You haven't actually said the same thing, that link fully agrees with me.




Autocrat said:
Hitler was good, objectively.
 
Dec 14, 2014 4:50 PM

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Immahnoob said:
You haven't actually said the same thing, that link fully agrees with me.
"A second, broader meaning of the term refers to the ability in any context to judge fairly, without bias or external influence (see journalistic objectivity); this second meaning of objectivity is sometimes used synonymously with neutrality." Argues putting bias aside as best as possible while the rest of the article talks about the philosophical use of the word which can only be applied to facts.


 
Dec 14, 2014 4:57 PM

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"Broader meaning" -> "Putting bias aside as best".

You do know that that definition actually has nothing, nothing at all to do with how "good" or "bad" Anime can be objectively right? Or with art if you want to be a lot more general. Being "neutral" will not make the "good" and "bad" objective, it'll make my words "objective" from an emotional standpoint.

Basically, if I say "Bananas are red.", I can be "objective" about it, by being completely "neutral" and take no stance, but that does not mean my statement that "Bananas are red" is true. It's still false.




Autocrat said:
Hitler was good, objectively.
 
Dec 14, 2014 5:01 PM

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Yes. Clannad is objective crap.
"Let Justice Be Done!"

My Theme
I conclude that this theme is in fact good!
 
Dec 14, 2014 5:09 PM

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Immahnoob said:
"Broader meaning" -> "Putting bias aside as best".

You do know that that definition actually has nothing, nothing at all to do with how "good" or "bad" Anime can be objectively right? Or with art if you want to be a lot more general. Being "neutral" will not make the "good" and "bad" objective, it'll make my words "objective" from an emotional standpoint.

Basically, if I say "Bananas are red.", I can be "objective" about it, by being completely "neutral" and take no stance, but that does not mean my statement that "Bananas are red" is true. It's still false.
I'm not arguing whether art can be good or bad on a factually objective basis. Good and bad are determined by an individual and as stated are subjective. I'm saying the broader term of objectivity, having standards and common ground for comparison and measure based on reason in order to reach a conclusion is another definition closer in line with critical thinking.
Modified by Shrabster, Dec 14, 2014 5:15 PM


 
Dec 14, 2014 11:10 PM

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No.
"If you died, would anyone care? Would they really care? Maybe, they'd cry for a day. But, let's be honest no one would give a shit. They wouldn't. The few people that would feel obligated to go to your funeral would probably be annoyed and leave as early as possible. That's who you are. That's what you are. You are nothing to anyone. To everyone."
-Mr. Robot

"I can take another name, and build a new life.. But on the inside I'll always have that instinct, no matter how much I hate it. I'm yakuza through and through. Guile only gets you so far in this game. Remember that. You won't get another chance."
-Kiryu Kazuma
 
Dec 15, 2014 1:15 AM

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Nicoreos said:


No.


You desserved to be banned from the internet for 1 month for using such a huge picture that has at best a 400px resolution.
 
Dec 15, 2014 1:23 AM
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It depends on how you determine whether it's good or not. If you're solely judging the technical aspects of it, then sure, you can judge anime objectively in that regard. When it comes to story, art, characters or music, then it the answer is no, because you simply cannot say that there's a better or worse.
 
Dec 15, 2014 1:29 AM

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baki502 said:

You desserved to be banned from the internet for 1 month for using such a huge picture that has at best a 400px resolution.

This is what happens when women are allowed to use the internet.
 
Dec 15, 2014 2:33 AM

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Every Anime have technical and thematic characteristics.
Every User have criteria, standards, tastes and priorities to evaluate specific characteristics.

Given a subjective method/standard for evaluating anything, the output is objective.
Moral: You can't hide the inconsistency of your evaluation with subjectiveness.
 
Dec 15, 2014 2:38 AM

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Opinions will usually carry both objective and subjective elements. Basically every review in existence has some subjectivity to it, whether there is some arguable objectivity or not. I used to think that objectivity is literally non-existent, but I was convinced otherwise. However, saying one has an objective opinion in this area is a bit redundant as the opinion will basically always be subjective also when relating to entertainment media.

So, yes. Water can be wet.
 
Dec 15, 2014 4:58 AM

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There is only absolute perfection and absolute shit. Everything in between is subjective, only absolute shit exists in anime, absolute perfection does not.
 
Dec 15, 2014 5:32 AM

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RyanEnsign said:
There is only absolute perfection and absolute shit. Everything in between is subjective, only absolute shit exists in anime, absolute perfection does not.
Every show has something that makes it attract people, or it is the art, or it is a certain voice actor. If you look deep, you can always find something that is good about a show, just look deep enough...
 
Dec 15, 2014 5:44 AM

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Milk_is_Special said:
RyanEnsign said:
There is only absolute perfection and absolute shit. Everything in between is subjective, only absolute shit exists in anime, absolute perfection does not.
Every show has something that makes it attract people, or it is the art, or it is a certain voice actor. If you look deep, you can always find something that is good about a show, just look deep enough...

Nah, some things or just that bad
 
Dec 15, 2014 5:55 AM

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RyanEnsign said:
Milk_is_Special said:
Every show has something that makes it attract people, or it is the art, or it is a certain voice actor. If you look deep, you can always find something that is good about a show, just look deep enough...

Nah, some things or just that bad
Can you name a few? Because I'm gonna find good things in them.
 
Dec 15, 2014 6:06 AM

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Milk_is_Special said:
RyanEnsign said:

Nah, some things or just that bad
Can you name a few? Because I'm gonna find good things in them.


Definetly not Utsu Musume Sayuri, cause that is a Inferno Cop +1/Inferno Cop masterpiece even better than Inferno Cop
 
Dec 15, 2014 7:00 AM

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literally nothing can be objectively good or bad.

anime, books, movies, food, people, politics. these are all just based on the subjective opinions of individuals as to what defines good or bad. buuuut, there are other specifications that you can use to view the quality of anime slightly more subjectively, like skill or originality to a lesser extent.
come with me empty human
 
Dec 15, 2014 7:29 AM

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simonephone said:
literally nothing can be objectively good or bad.

anime, books, movies, food, people, politics. these are all just based on the subjective opinions of individuals as to what defines good or bad. buuuut, there are other specifications that you can use to view the quality of anime slightly more subjectively, like skill or originality to a lesser extent.


If we are going to go that way good and bad are entirely made up concepts and dont really exist. By using these words you are already not perfectly objective anymore. Nothing is good or bad it just exists.
 
Dec 15, 2014 8:02 AM

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baki502 said:
simonephone said:
literally nothing can be objectively good or bad.

anime, books, movies, food, people, politics. these are all just based on the subjective opinions of individuals as to what defines good or bad. buuuut, there are other specifications that you can use to view the quality of anime slightly more subjectively, like skill or originality to a lesser extent.


If we are going to go that way good and bad are entirely made up concepts and dont really exist. By using these words you are already not perfectly objective anymore. Nothing is good or bad it just exists.


This. Every word in existence was conceived by man.
 
Dec 15, 2014 8:45 AM

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They objectively good and bad if i say so.
 
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