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Can an anime be objectively good or objectively bad?

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#1
Dec 14, 2014 12:12 AM

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Anime is said to be a subjective experience.

Often, one will say that sales do not indicate quality.
"Treasure, like beauty, is seen in the eyes of the beholder"

However, is it possible for an anime to be factually or "objectively" good/bad?
 
#2
Dec 14, 2014 12:13 AM

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no, you can't rate anime objectively
 
#3
Dec 14, 2014 12:14 AM

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How with all the variables being sooo subjective?!
 
#4
Dec 14, 2014 12:15 AM
#1 Chihaya Fan

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Yes, Inferno Cop is objectively the greatest anything ever.
 
#5
Dec 14, 2014 12:18 AM

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VitaminCaim said:

Often, one will say that sales do not indicate quality.
"Treasure, like beauty, is seen in the eyes of the beholder."


Be a good boy and believe in those words of advice.
Kagami_Hiiragi said:
Idc if you think its weird, I have a life and friends and an income of money.

 
#6
Dec 14, 2014 12:25 AM

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Nope, even Mars of Destruction can be subjective.
HOW TO SAVE ANIME IN THREE SIMPLE STEPS

  1. To have Mars of Destruction, Skelter Heaven, and Pupa properly adapted in TV series form by Madhouse
  2. To have Inferno Cop properly adapted in TV series form by Bones, director: Urobuchi Gen
  3. An anime crossover of Mushishi x ARIA x Haibane Renmei.


Should even one of the above conditions cannot be done, anime is still at risk.
 
#7
Dec 14, 2014 12:26 AM

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Even when a bunch of the variables are objectively bad, you're going to find someone who likes it. You can see that with SAO being pretty bad in almost every respect (animation, storytelling, characters etc), but it's loved by a lot of people.
 
#8
Dec 14, 2014 12:27 AM
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Objectivity creates absolutes which take away any chance to argue, solidifying a hierarchy of shows and tastes. Subjectivity also takes away any chance to argue through making everything opinion-based, which suddenly makes every opinion correct through some vantage point, no matter how absurd.

I don't think this is a problem that can be solved by generalizing.
 
#9
Dec 14, 2014 12:28 AM

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i feel like for every "shitty" show, you can still argue that it's 10/10 quality honestly

and for every perfect show (you know like LOGH or mushishi on MAL haha), you can argue that it's the worst thing ever

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

watch nodame cantabile

recommend me anything!
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:29 AM

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You can rate something objectively. The subjectivity can change a 6 into a 7, for exemple !
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:32 AM

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mayukachan said:
i feel like for every "shitty" show, you can still argue that it's 10/10 quality honestly

and for every perfect show (you know like LOGH or mushishi on MAL haha), you can argue that it's the worst thing ever


I'd like to hear a 10/10 argument for Human Zoo.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:33 AM

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DragonQuest3 said:
mayukachan said:
i feel like for every "shitty" show, you can still argue that it's 10/10 quality honestly

and for every perfect show (you know like LOGH or mushishi on MAL haha), you can argue that it's the worst thing ever


I'd like to hear a 10/10 argument for Human Zoo.

The second review.
http://myanimelist.net/anime/6953/Ningen_Doubutsuen

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

watch nodame cantabile

recommend me anything!
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:36 AM
Top Aidoru ♪

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DragonQuest3 said:
mayukachan said:
i feel like for every "shitty" show, you can still argue that it's 10/10 quality honestly

and for every perfect show (you know like LOGH or mushishi on MAL haha), you can argue that it's the worst thing ever


I'd like to hear a 10/10 argument for Human Zoo.


Someway, somehow, every show is someone's favorite. The only thing that scares me more then that someone had to imagine, fund, and create these shows for them to exist.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:36 AM

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Ofcourse... you might not like that particular show but that doesn't mean it hasn't got its merits.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:38 AM
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I think they can on very rare occasion, but usually it just amounts to people throwing around strong words and opinions as if they're fact, especially when it comes to popular series.

However I would not say something like sales figures are a solid argument in regards to the quality of something. Views/Sales do not automatically reflect on what people thought of it, only that they decided to buy it or check it out.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:40 AM

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Anime can be objectively bad at making sales, so there's that at least, right?
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:42 AM

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Shocked said:
DragonQuest3 said:


I'd like to hear a 10/10 argument for Human Zoo.


Someway, somehow, every show is someone's favorite. The only thing that scares me more then that someone had to imagine, fund, and create these shows for them to exist.
I don't think Human Zoo had much of a budget tbh. That said I think most of the bad anime like Mars of destruction and Pupa are simply results from incompetence and laziness.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:44 AM

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It works with music too by the way.

Can is objectively good and Radiohead is objectively bad.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:44 AM

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DragonQuest3 said:
mayukachan said:
i feel like for every "shitty" show, you can still argue that it's 10/10 quality honestly

and for every perfect show (you know like LOGH or mushishi on MAL haha), you can argue that it's the worst thing ever


I'd like to hear a 10/10 argument for Human Zoo.


That's definitely one of the easier ones since it's a conceptual work. You either like them or you don't. The short has a clear message, conveys it and is over. Picture book short that fulfills it's purpose.

It's really getting hard with stuff like Skelter Heaven or one of those Flash Hentai. Or The Room.


OT: Anyone thinking about the matter seriously will notice that everyone constantly accepts that certain things are considered 'good' or 'bad' and others aren't. If you don't get hung up on the terminology and call it Inter-subjectively agreed standards or whatever instead of objectivity it's not that hard to accept that yes, Skelter Heaven is just terrible in every aspect and that's not really something that can be debunked with the magical syllables sub-jec-ti-vi-ty. Even if you managed to find some non-trolls that legitimately find it to be a good show, rare exceptions just prove the point that there IS some standard we all agree on since otherwise they wouldn't be exceptions ;).

So don't be afraid of having to face criticism for your favorite show when you stop hiding behind the almighty subjectivity that can immediately end any kind of argument when you're getting uncomfortable with the direction the conversation is taking. You can always choose to ignore criticism if you disagree or don't want to hear it, subjectivity is not needed as an excuse for that and doesn't make running away from an argument any better, objectively speaking.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:45 AM

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DragonQuest3 said:

That said I think most of the bad anime like Mars of destruction and Pupa are simply results from incompetence and laziness.


Hey hey hey. Mars of Destruction is many things, but a result of laziness it is not. It's probably got the biggest heart of any anime I've ever seen. The guys making that shit really thought they were making something good. They were definitely incompetent however.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:47 AM

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It's not objective in the factual sense, but there is certainly a critical element to which one can compare and contrast to other shows. In any case, the idea of objective merit shouldn't be abandoned as argued by the video.


 
Dec 14, 2014 12:49 AM
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Define good. Define bad.
You can't objectively rate an anime. It's similar to rating music. It's all about feels.

For those who like Rock, a certain band (let's say Paramore or Evanescence for me) is the best, and they freaking love their song. Meanwhile a rapper would probablt spit on their posters an claiming that 50cent or whatever is the best.

The point is - what means to be good or bad? You'll probably start listing in your mind conditions for a show to be good or bad. Well it's fine, but those work only for you. The definition of "good" and "bad" is different from person to person.

Exemple: while I think that Mirai Nikki is a great show, there are some who say it's just bullshit.
Or while most of the people love Death Note, I can't bring myself to watch it. I heard everyone saying it's a masterpiece, but after reading the synopsis, it just doesn't pick up my interest.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:50 AM

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Higashi_no_Kaze said:
DragonQuest3 said:


I'd like to hear a 10/10 argument for Human Zoo.


That's definitely one of the easier ones since it's a conceptual work. You either like them or you don't. The short has a clear message, conveys it and is over. Picture book short that fulfills it's purpose.

It's really getting hard with stuff like Skelter Heaven or one of those Flash Hentai. Or The Room.


OT: Anyone thinking about the matter seriously will notice that everyone constantly accepts that certain things are considered 'good' or 'bad' and others aren't. If you don't get hung up on the terminology and call it Inter-subjectively agreed standards or whatever instead of objectivity it's not that hard to accept that yes, Skelter Heaven is just terrible in every aspect and that's not really something that can be debunked with the magical syllables sub-jec-ti-vi-ty. Even if you managed to find some non-trolls that legitimately find it to be a good show, rare exceptions just prove the point that there IS some standard we all agree on since otherwise they wouldn't be exceptions ;).

So don't be afraid of having to face criticism for your favorite show when you stop hiding behind the almighty subjectivity that can immediately end any kind of argument when you're getting uncomfortable with the direction the conversation is taking. You can always choose to ignore criticism if you disagree or don't want to hear it, subjectivity is not needed as an excuse for that and doesn't make running away from an argument any better, objectively speaking.


Just to say since you mentioned the Room its fair to say some of that stuff is a masterpiece in the so bad its good kinda way which I do think is a legitimate reasoning.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:52 AM

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Miraclezify said:
DragonQuest3 said:

That said I think most of the bad anime like Mars of destruction and Pupa are simply results from incompetence and laziness.


Hey hey hey. Mars of Destruction is many things, but a result of laziness it is not. It's probably got the biggest heart of any anime I've ever seen. The guys making that shit really thought they were making something good. They were definitely incompetent however.
Every time I see your avatar I get nostalgic for Sakigake.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:53 AM

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VitaminCaim said:
However, is it possible for an anime to be factually or "objectively" good/bad?
Well if absolutely everyone liked/hated it maybe, so in other words no.
 
Dec 14, 2014 12:57 AM

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Shrabster said:


It's not objective in the factual sense, but there is certainly a critical element to which one can compare and contrast to other shows. In any case, the idea of objective merit shouldn't be abandoned as argued by the video.

I've seen all those masterpieces at the beginning of the vid. Our "modern" art museum featured a square white canvas with a line drawn from diagonal to diagonal, one half filled in black...I cried LOL.
 
Dec 14, 2014 1:07 AM

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DragonQuest3 said:
Higashi_no_Kaze said:


That's definitely one of the easier ones since it's a conceptual work. You either like them or you don't. The short has a clear message, conveys it and is over. Picture book short that fulfills it's purpose.

It's really getting hard with stuff like Skelter Heaven or one of those Flash Hentai. Or The Room.


OT: Anyone thinking about the matter seriously will notice that everyone constantly accepts that certain things are considered 'good' or 'bad' and others aren't. If you don't get hung up on the terminology and call it Inter-subjectively agreed standards or whatever instead of objectivity it's not that hard to accept that yes, Skelter Heaven is just terrible in every aspect and that's not really something that can be debunked with the magical syllables sub-jec-ti-vi-ty. Even if you managed to find some non-trolls that legitimately find it to be a good show, rare exceptions just prove the point that there IS some standard we all agree on since otherwise they wouldn't be exceptions ;).

So don't be afraid of having to face criticism for your favorite show when you stop hiding behind the almighty subjectivity that can immediately end any kind of argument when you're getting uncomfortable with the direction the conversation is taking. You can always choose to ignore criticism if you disagree or don't want to hear it, subjectivity is not needed as an excuse for that and doesn't make running away from an argument any better, objectively speaking.


Just to say since you mentioned the Room its fair to say some of that stuff is a masterpiece in the so bad its good kinda way which I do think is a legitimate reasoning.


There is no such thing as 'so bad it's good' only 'so bad it's fun' imo. :P
That's usually how it's meant anyway, but when you take it literally it's just a statements that contradicts itself.
And in that sense not really a useful argument in this context.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 14, 2014 1:13 AM

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Objectivity is basically found in measurable aspects of something.
An anime can be better than another in one aspect, but worse in an other.

So to objectively judge something you have to decide beforehand what aspect you're going to judge. You can't talk about comparisons when talking about every aspect of something.


A 30cm ruler is objectively longer than a 20cm ruler. But is it better?
If you want a ruler that fits in your pencil case, then the 20cm one is objectively better, but if you want one that can measure larger lenghts then the 30cm one is objectively better.

Its all about your point of view.
 
Dec 14, 2014 1:19 AM

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FloatingList said:
Nope, even Mars of Destruction can be subjective.

That's just how entertaining the viewer found it.
 
Dec 14, 2014 1:19 AM

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Almost all anime are objectively bad.
 
Dec 14, 2014 1:47 AM

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KokkoClaus said:
FloatingList said:
Nope, even Mars of Destruction can be subjective.

That's just how entertaining the viewer found it.

Exactly.
HOW TO SAVE ANIME IN THREE SIMPLE STEPS

  1. To have Mars of Destruction, Skelter Heaven, and Pupa properly adapted in TV series form by Madhouse
  2. To have Inferno Cop properly adapted in TV series form by Bones, director: Urobuchi Gen
  3. An anime crossover of Mushishi x ARIA x Haibane Renmei.


Should even one of the above conditions cannot be done, anime is still at risk.
 
Dec 14, 2014 1:57 AM

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FloatingList said:
KokkoClaus said:

That's just how entertaining the viewer found it.

Exactly.

Entertainment is not the same as quality, despite what the mass media want you to think. Someone can be entertained by how bad a show is, but that statement already implies that it is in fact bad, so it can't be good at the same time, just fun to watch because of how particularly bad it is.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:01 AM

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FloatingList said:
KokkoClaus said:

That's just how entertaining the viewer found it.

Exactly.
You can't give a critically legitimate argument that Mars of Destruction is better than any given classic or highly revered anime. At that point, it might as well be a fact.


 
Dec 14, 2014 2:02 AM

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no you can't. what you found objectively good maybe shit to the other and vice versa. there is no way to determine it
"This is boring...I'm bored..."
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:10 AM

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Ckan said:
Anime can be objectively bad at making sales, so there's that at least, right?

Sales being good or bad is also a subjective matter
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:11 AM

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only in terms of animation.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:12 AM

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ChaosSaviour said:
no you can't. what you found objectively good maybe shit to the other and vice versa. there is no way to determine it


That doesn't undermine the argument though. Something can be objectively well-written, well-constructed with great animation and detailed art and no other apparent flaws but still lack individual appeal in areas that can't be critically assessed. Like 'I don't like this color palette because I like yellow more than green' or simply 'this is a genre I don't like' or 'I hate this because I didn't do my research and had completely wrong expectations'.

Not liking something doesn't make it automatically bad even if lots of people try to convince themselves otherwise. Not everyone sees enjoyment/entertainment as the ultimate form of quality and therefore always implies one if he mentions the other.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:20 AM

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Nothing ever is objective. Even facts aren't. As long as there's something known as opinions and perspectives that is.
For those who seek perfection, there can be no rest on this side of the grave.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:22 AM

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Tyrantarmy6 said:
Nothing ever is objective. Even facts aren't. As long as there's something known as opinions and perspectives that is.

pls no
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:25 AM

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No, because "good" and "bad" are subjective. Objectivity is something extremely simple to understand so it baffles me that this is a legitimate question.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:25 AM

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Tyrantarmy6 said:
Nothing ever is objective. Even facts aren't. As long as there's something known as opinions and perspectives that is.


To survive in the daily life we need to treat certain subjective things as objective, unfortunately.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:25 AM

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hentai_eucli said:
Objectivity is basically found in measurable aspects of something.
An anime can be better than another in one aspect, but worse in an other.

So to objectively judge something you have to decide beforehand what aspect you're going to judge. You can't talk about comparisons when talking about every aspect of something.


A 30cm ruler is objectively longer than a 20cm ruler. But is it better?
If you want a ruler that fits in your pencil case, then the 20cm one is objectively better, but if you want one that can measure larger lenghts then the 30cm one is objectively better.

Its all about your point of view.

Exactly. Objectivity is tied to a framework, or in this case personal values. One framework isn't inherently better or more objective than another. They're just different. However, when you don't decide on what aspect you're judging, your relying on emotions/intuition rather than logic. That's how I separate objectivity from subjectivity in rating.

Oh, and I have zero intention of responding to anyone who replies using the philosophical definitions of objective/subjective. I don't care to have a philosophical/semantics debate on the matter for the umpteenth time.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:47 AM

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Tyrantarmy6 said:
Nothing ever is objective. Even facts aren't. As long as there's something known as opinions and perspectives that is.


The lack of complete, uncompromising, philosophical objectivity does NOT automatically mean complete and uncompromising subjectivity though. Anyone who doesn't think in absolutes should know that there are degrees to everything, and while complete objectivity is unattainable we can attempt to get as close as we can for practical reasons. And we all do all the time, even the people who are in denial about the existence of anything that goes beyond their own subjective horizon. They just aren't aware of it. Which makes it all the more weird to watch them talk about complete subjectivity as if it objectively were the only valid way of assessing art.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 14, 2014 2:54 AM

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TripleSRank said:

Oh, and I have zero intention of responding to anyone who replies using the philosophical definitions of objective/subjective. I don't care to have a philosophical/semantics debate on the matter for the umpteenth time.


They do get tiresome, but they're also inevitable since that's the main reason this controversy exists.
People think in absolutes because it makes their arguments easier despite them trying to argue against a mindset that thinks in absolutes. So don't bail on me :>

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:17 AM

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Higashi_no_Kaze said:
Tyrantarmy6 said:
Nothing ever is objective. Even facts aren't. As long as there's something known as opinions and perspectives that is.


The lack of complete, uncompromising, philosophical objectivity does NOT automatically mean complete and uncompromising subjectivity though. Anyone who doesn't think in absolutes should know that there are degrees to everything, and while complete objectivity is unattainable we can attempt to get as close as we can for practical reasons. And we all do all the time, even the people who are in denial about the existence of anything that goes beyond their own subjective horizon. They just aren't aware of it. Which makes it all the more weird to watch them talk about complete subjectivity as if it objectively were the only valid way of assessing art.


Of course. I only stated that true objectivity does not exist. I never said that it was practical to consider everything subjective. Personally I just like to think of objectivity as "generally agreed upon subjectivity".
Not that it has any real use though
For those who seek perfection, there can be no rest on this side of the grave.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:18 AM

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yes
there are some really bad anime out there, I'd be surprised to hear that anyone genuinely thinks that they're good.
yuh yuh yuh

 
Dec 14, 2014 3:19 AM

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No,you can't. It's impossible to rate an anime objectively.

Modified by Zapredon, Jan 2, 2015 4:37 AM
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion.

http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30

It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:19 AM

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mitch3315 said:
Yes, Inferno Cop is objectively the greatest anything ever.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:19 AM

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Higashi_no_Kaze said:
They do get tiresome, but they're also inevitable since that's the main reason this controversy exists.
People think in absolutes because it makes their arguments easier despite them trying to argue against a mindset that thinks in absolutes. So don't bail on me :>

Never thought a post in one of these threads would make be chuckle. Thanks.

I guess I was being a bit overly... closed. There's no need to project one situation into another and assume the worst.
 
Dec 14, 2014 3:22 AM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
No, because "good" and "bad" are subjective. Objectivity is something extremely simple to understand so it baffles me that this is a legitimate question.
Things can be objectively labelled as good or bad based only on subjective agreement of a framework to judge these things. The question isn't the question but the framework.








I think.
 
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