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Poll: Which do you prefer?


Oct 19, 2010 8:14 PM

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Next time someone starts slinging insults, I'm going to have to be unpleasant. Most of you probably don't want to see that. So chill out and be cool to each other.
 
Oct 19, 2010 9:00 PM

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lightcircus said:
TokyoCandlelight said:

lightcircus said:
I bet you do the youtube fandub thing don't you

lightcircus said:
But you would if you got the chance, wouldn't you? It sounds fun, doesn't it?

Not that it's any of my business, but if I'd only watched 17 days of anime, I wouldn't start a battle of wits with someone who clearly knows what they're talking about more than I do. =/






1) The voice actors have little to no communication with the director or other important staff members involved in the creation of said work. The original staff generally doesn't even have anything to do with the English dub for their show.

THIS ALONE should be enough for anyone with half a fucking brain. Sadly, you could probably count the members possessing a fully-functioning brain on this site on maybe two hands. Then again, even that sounds like too much.

Back on-topic: An excellent example of how important communication with the original staff is when it comes to something like this is the final line in End of Evangelion. Most should be familiar with it... Even I am, and, apparently, I haven't even watched it! At least, that's what my fucking anime list says!

bet they take their work real seriously - especially when you throw their salaries into the equation.

2) Cultural Differences
This one shouldn't need much explanation. Let me try to drill this into your empty fucking heads one more time: These shows were made in Japanese. These shows were made to appeal to a Japanese audience and their specific culture - not yours. Context is huge here. When you take one of these shows and dub it in English, you are throwing all of that out the fucking window. Even with English subtitles, something is lost. It is impossible to completely retain the original meaning when going from Japanese to English.



3) Industry/Talent Pool Differences
This is one that somehow doesn't get mentioned in a lot of these arguments. That's probably why this argument of "subs vs dubs" has continued in various forms for so long. However, even when it is brought up, it flies right over the heads of people arguing in favor of English dubs, or they just pretend that the differences do not exist. Hell, this point has probably been brought up and subsequently ignored many times in this thread already, but I might as well go over it again since I have nothing better to do than to post a wall of text on an anime forum - both in an attempt to try to drill some obvious shit into the heads of a bunch of stupid women, and to alleviate boredom.

The anime industry in Japan is very different from America or Europe or whatever shitty place in the world you live in that happens to think stealing someone's work, shitting on it and re-selling it in such a butchered form is a good idea. In Japan, voicing the main character for a popular anime series is a much bigger deal than it is over here. You get a paid a lot more than you do over here, and there is an insane amount of competition. Watch REC if you want some insight into this shit that is easily digestable for your stupid ass. In America, the most you have to worry about as far as competition goes is a bunch of fat weeaboos who hone their skills by making youtube fandubs. In America, anime gets the shit at the bottom of the barrel.



4) ENGLISH DUBBING QUALITY AS A WHOLE
This is something that almost NEVER gets brought up in these arguments. Why? Probably because most of you idiots are deaf. Remember when I said this a long time ago?
lightcircus said:
Maybe, just maybe, there are people in this world that are familiar with both languages and prefer the original japanese audio because the English is, in almost every case, BLATANTLY INFERIOR TO THE ORIGINAL WORK.

The bolded part is what you need to focus on here. I said that because, despite the talent pool being a joke outside of Japan, good (or, at least, not entirely incompetent) voice actors DO EXIST. I am not denying the existence of competent English voice actors. However, anime does not see many of them, for reasons I have already explained. Despite this, there are English dubs that receive almost nothing but praise from all sides. The most obvious example is, no doubt, Cowboy Bebop. I don't think I've ever seen a "sub vs dub" argument in which this series was not mentioned at least once, and almost always in an attempt to defend dubs. "Hey, at least this one is good! No one can disagree on that!" It's true that many of the characters are voiced competently in the English version. It's true that many of the voice actors fit their roles well. Even Shinichiro Watanabe has allegedly said that he prefers the English dub to the Japanese (I don't know how true this is and frankly I find it difficult to believe).

However, there is one HUGE difference in quality between the Japanese and the English audio tracks that absolutely can not be argued: Foley. Do some a/b switching on this shit and if you aren't wearing fucking iPod earbuds (I assume most of you are since no one who watches dubs ever notices this), you will hear the difference. The background noises/ambient effects/etc are a joke. The quality in general is a joke. Even the music suffers in the English audio track. The last thing that should be damaged in a series like Cowboy Bebop is the god damn music - and yet, it was. That says a lot about the anime industry here. In fact, I think that says all that really needs to be said, but I'm going to go just one step further.

5) Moé
English dubbing might have worked in the past, but if you honestly think that English dubs of the shit coming out now (almost all of which incorporate some aspects of moé) can ever come close to the original Japanese, you are fucking beyond help. Many Japanese women were gifted (or cursed, if you're a bitter old hag) with the ability to make sugar come out of their fucking voice boxes. Women over here... were not. This is painfully obvious in many of the more recent English dubs. Many of the wrinkly old hags attempt this same thing that Japanese women do and fail miserably. I'm not saying that makes these women entirely inferior; I'm simply saying that this is where their limit lies. You can not imitate this shit. You can only attempt it (and fail) or butcher the show even further by removing these aspects entirely. BOTH SUCK.

In closing,
ENGLISH DUBS ARE INFERIOR GET OVER IT

1. That depends on the studio, or dub director. Usually people like Funimation make you a little familiar of the character your auditioning for.

I know for a fact that Bang Zoom are usually familiar with their characters.

2. Your aware of Black Lagoon, and Panty, and Stocking right? Both (While one isn't dubbed) have heavy American appeal. Now something like Gintama is where something has literally to much references that companies just sub it, then there are cases like Sgt. Frog where they rewrite some cases, and it somewhat works.

3. May I remind you of Mark Hamill, and other non-anime VA's? Even so VA's 3/4 of the time have had acting experience.

4. A/B? Thats your problem not a majority.

5. Soon to come K-ON! dub would like to you to take a seat.
 
Oct 20, 2010 1:24 AM

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lightcircus said:
1) The voice actors have little to no communication with the director or other important staff members involved in the creation of said work. The original staff generally doesn't even have anything to do with the English dub for their show.

THIS ALONE should be enough for anyone with half a fucking brain.
Sure it'd be enough, if it were true. But it's not. Dubbing directors and actors will tell plenty of stories about how the Japanese producers wanted them to translate some term a certain way, getting dub casts approved, or of having to re-record several episodes of a dub because the Japanese side didn't like the actor's performance. (The latter happened with Johnny Yong Bosch and Yuri Lowenthal on Eureka 7.) The FLCL dub was produced with heavy Japanese involvement, which is the reason cited for it turning out so well. So was the Love Hina dub, which was the reason cited for it turning out so poorly.

Having read that (hopefully), do you honestly think the "voice actors" involved in the English dub for a particular show ever experience anything like that? Fuck no. Most of these cunts don't even take the source material seriously (or, more importantly, even have the mental capacity to do so). Half of these guys finish their work on an anime series and run off to do voicework for something as challenging as Ben 10. Yeah, I bet they take their work real seriously - especially when you throw their salaries into the equation.
Look at the writing credits for Ghost Stories, a show that many agree is more entertaining in English than Japanese. The main cast has co-writing credits for coming up with much of the dialogue, and "booth-rewrites" based on collaborations between the actors and directors are common. You seem to have a personal vendetta against dub actors... Have you ever met any of them, or at least watched YouTube videos of convention panels? I've had the pleasure of meeting quite a few, and while most aren't anime fans, they don't hate it, and they take it as seriously as the individual project can be taken. Chris Patton recounts having to do 26 takes of a generic surprised "huh?!" in RahXephon -- that tells me the director was taking the scene pretty damn seriously. Caitlin Glass and Vic Mignogna all but admitted to watching the Ouran HSHC fansubs prior to working on the show. Are these actresses not taking the end of Princess Tutu seriously??

These shows were made in Japanese. These shows were made to appeal to a Japanese audience and their specific culture - not yours. Context is huge here. When you take one of these shows and dub it in English, you are throwing all of that out the fucking window. Even with English subtitles, something is lost. It is impossible to completely retain the original meaning when going from Japanese to English.
Right, I'm sure shows like Afro Samurai, Trinity Blood, High School of the Dead, Gun x Sword, Hellsing, Desert Punk, Solty Rei, Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Heat Guy J, Last Exile, Chrono Crusade, Baccano, and Burst Angel were produced without any thought to their appeal to overseas/Western markets. Even Pokemon had its "Japaneseness" toned down at the production level after they realized they had an international hit on their hands. You're right that the Japanese market is the primary focus, but it's not necessarily the only one.

And if it's impossible to retain the original meaning either way, what's so wrong with creating a product that's entertaining in the English language?

The anime industry in Japan is very different from America or Europe or whatever shitty place in the world you live in that happens to think stealing someone's work, shitting on it and re-selling it in such a butchered form is a good idea.
How is paying money to the Japanese companies, getting their approval on every little thing from dub casts to subtitle spelling, selling it with a more-or-less unaltered dub, and paying royalties to the original creators equivalent to "stealing someone's work and shitting on it"? And even the most butchered dubs (like the 4Kids stuff) could not have been made without the approval of the Japanese.

Watch REC if you want some insight into this shit that is easily digestable for your stupid ass.
Because anime always = reality of life in Japan.

Again, not the case in Japan. Sure, it's not the most lucrative business on Earth there either, but it's a hell of a lot more lucrative than it is over here.
Lucrative? (link NSFW) Most anime dub actors also work in other acting jobs or part-time day jobs as well. Japanese anime VAs also do a fair percentage of their acting work in the stealing/shitting/butchering localization field you decry -- dubbing US movies and TV shows into Japanese.

However, there is one HUGE difference in quality between the Japanese and the English audio tracks that absolutely can not be argued: Foley. Do some a/b switching on this shit and if you aren't wearing fucking iPod earbuds (I assume most of you are since no one who watches dubs ever notices this), you will hear the difference. The background noises/ambient effects/etc are a joke. The quality in general is a joke. Even the music suffers in the English audio track. The last thing that should be damaged in a series like Cowboy Bebop is the god damn music - and yet, it was.
What version of Cowboy Bebop are you testing on? Old DVD release? Remix DVD release? Some old over-compressed DVD-rip? A newer rip? Not saying you're right or wrong, just want to know what the test parameters are. But on the other hand, a lot of dubs get 5.1 surround mixes while the Japanese tracks are just 2.0 stereo.

English dubbing might have worked in the past, but if you honestly think that English dubs of the shit coming out now (almost all of which incorporate some aspects of moé) can ever come close to the original Japanese, you are fucking beyond help.
I'll agree that there is some fail in dubs of moe characters. But among people who don't hate dubs a priori, the dubs for Air, Kanon '06, Haruhi, and Lucky Star have all received high praise. Carrie Savage was far more moe as the title character of Solty Rei than whoever played her in Japanese. And a lot of the moe anime coming out these days like Hidamari Sketch isn't even getting dubbed to begin with.

Maybe, just maybe, there are people in this world that are familiar with both languages and prefer the original Japanese audio because the English is, in almost every case, BLATANTLY INFERIOR TO THE ORIGINAL WORK. There are many reasons for this:
I can accept that. But can you accept that some people may be familiar with both languages, perfectly capable of reading and following subtitles, yet still prefer the English tracks for reasons completely unrelated to mental deficiencies? Maybe they don't like the sound of ultra-cute Japanese voices. Maybe they connect better with the visuals and characters when the audio's in their language. I often find dubs more appealing because of the scriptwriting -- English is a lexically richer language, and Japanese writing is filled with repeated stock anime dialogue that gets old after awhile. Uninspired or overliteral subtitles (in both fansubs and official subs) don't help the matter.

And even if something is "blatantly inferior" to something else, that doesn't make it objectively bad. If Japanese dubs are a 10 and English ones are an 8, does that make them awful?
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Oct 20, 2010 2:05 AM

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lightcircus said:
Even with English subtitles, something is lost. It is impossible to completely retain the original meaning when going from Japanese to English.

If you know that, then go watch raw instead. Watch raw = no need to wait for fansubbers and no meaning is lost in the subtitles

lightcircus said:

5) Moé
English dubbing might have worked in the past, but if you honestly think that English dubs of the shit coming out now (almost all of which incorporate some aspects of moé) can ever come close to the original Japanese, you are fucking beyond help. Many Japanese women were gifted (or cursed, if you're a bitter old hag) with the ability to make sugar come out of their fucking voice boxes. Women over here... were not. This is painfully obvious in many of the more recent English dubs. Many of the wrinkly old hags attempt this same thing that Japanese women do and fail miserably. I'm not saying that makes these women entirely inferior; I'm simply saying that this is where their limit lies. You can not imitate this shit. You can only attempt it (and fail) or butcher the show even further by removing these aspects entirely. BOTH SUCK.

If this is true, then I might be able to watch more moe2 shows if I watch in English dubs instead. God, moe2 voice is awfully annoying.
 
Oct 20, 2010 3:06 AM
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Why keep replying to someone who obviously prefers Insults over a rational debate? Wasted effort imo...
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Oct 20, 2010 3:12 AM

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mostly subbed all the way but if any of the characters have Blum, Steven as the voice actor cause i like him on big O as Rodger smith
 
Oct 20, 2010 5:21 AM

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lightcircus said:

5) Moé
English dubbing might have worked in the past, but if you honestly think that English dubs of the shit coming out now (almost all of which incorporate some aspects of moé) can ever come close to the original Japanese, you are fucking beyond help. Many Japanese women were gifted (or cursed, if you're a bitter old hag) with the ability to make sugar come out of their fucking voice boxes. Women over here... were not.

Sugar come out of their voice boxes, I like that analogy. One of the reasons I like subs is I like the sound of the voices even though I know barely any Japanese. Still, I'll say again for like the third time in this forum that I don't care what people like, we don't need to argue over this. Let people prefer sub or dub. Who cares anyway?
 
Oct 21, 2010 7:13 AM

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If you were to dub an anime, that wouldn't make Japan any special anymore :( Anime is a part of Japan. SUB IS FOREVER WIN! DUB GTFO.
 
Oct 21, 2010 7:46 AM

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Ok listen up, every single person who voted "Sub only" are out of their minds. Subs suck. Here is why, I assume when ya voted sub ya include official and fan subs. This rant is directed at fans of fan subs. DON’T TRUST THEM! Fan Subs are amateur translations and can at times be totally off the script. It’s better to watch dub and know what is being said is accurate to some degree instead of trust amateurs to translate speech to text. Plus there are alot of good dubbed anime.
Proud supporter of the anti-piracy movement. Do NOT pirate Anime/manga! No torrents, illegal streams, or P2P downloading! Respect the industry, only contribute to the industry. BUY ANIME!
 
Oct 21, 2010 9:12 AM

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Cezska said:
If you were to dub an anime, that wouldn't make Japan any special anymore :( Anime is a part of Japan. SUB IS FOREVER WIN! DUB GTFO.


Woah, wait, what the hell? What does that even mean? Are you saying that the stuff Japan stole from the US is sacred? Or what?
 
Oct 21, 2010 11:19 AM

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Cezska said:
If you were to dub an anime, that wouldn't make Japan any special anymore :( Anime is a part of Japan. SUB IS FOREVER WIN! DUB GTFO.


Japan isn't special. Anime is just Japanese animation. There's nothing special about it.
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Oct 21, 2010 12:01 PM

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Dubs seem to be getting worst as time goes by.
Watch a 90s anime, the dub is OK, yet now they seem to be increasingly silly and consist of the same few voices.

Has anybody heared the Fairy Tail dub; disgusting, I though it was a joke... :P

 
Oct 21, 2010 12:12 PM

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Cezska said:
If you were to dub an anime, that wouldn't make Japan any special anymore :( Anime is a part of Japan. SUB IS FOREVER WIN! DUB GTFO.

Eh, no. Dubbed anime is still anime, it still has Japan style animation and still made by Japanese studio with story written by Japanese writers.

Lolicon said:
Ok listen up, every single person who voted "Sub only" are out of their minds. Subs suck. Here is why, I assume when ya voted sub ya include official and fan subs. This rant is directed at fans of fan subs. DON’T TRUST THEM! Fan Subs are amateur translations and can at times be totally off the script. It’s better to watch dub and know what is being said is accurate to some degree instead of trust amateurs to translate speech to text. Plus there are alot of good dubbed anime.

That's why I watch subs, so I can still listen to the original Japanese dubs, if I find any mistranslations I can just translate it myself. I can't do this with dubs, no matter how wrong their translations are I'd just have to accept it. And there's just as much mistranslations or meaning changes in dubs and official subs as there are in fansubs. Hell, some fansubs have even better translations than official.
Modified by RedSuisei, Oct 21, 2010 12:17 PM
 
Oct 21, 2010 2:47 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
Dubs seem to be getting worst as time goes by.
Watch a 90s anime, the dub is OK, yet now they seem to be increasingly silly and consist of the same few voices.

Has anybody heared the Fairy Tail dub; disgusting, I though it was a joke... :P


Well....you now feel my pain dude....
Modified by Dreadnaught_500, Oct 21, 2010 2:52 PM
 
Oct 21, 2010 3:27 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
Dubs seem to be getting worst as time goes by.
Watch a 90s anime, the dub is OK, yet now they seem to be increasingly silly and consist of the same few voices.

Most people would say the opposite.

Has anybody heared the Fairy Tail dub; disgusting, I though it was a joke... :P

Animax Asia dub. Read.
 
Oct 22, 2010 7:53 AM

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@ negativedemyx
Love your third party face palm. ;)

Redfoxoffire said:
Queen_Stars said:
Dubs seem to be getting worst as time goes by.
Watch a 90s anime, the dub is OK, yet now they seem to be increasingly silly and consist of the same few voices.

Most people would say the opposite.

Has anybody heared the Fairy Tail dub; disgusting, I though it was a joke... :P

Animax Asia dub. Read.


People are bound to think the oposite, just as people will think the same.
I actually though some of the earlier dubs were OK, those, and the low profile companies, such as thoses who did Rurouni Kenshin.

It doesn't really matter where the company come from, aslong as they do a mediocre english dub, I'll complain.:P
Listen to the French company who did the UK DBZ movie dubs; the worst I have ever heared.

 
Oct 22, 2010 8:58 AM

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Well, I like English dubs, because in this way I can train my English skills while having fun with animes! Usually the English Subs are also enabled, so I don't miss any parts of the conversations. But if the English dub sucks, I'm also rather a fan of the Sub-only group.

And just don't get me started with the dubbs in my home country. They nearly always completely suck! Even the overall experience with an anime suffers since an anime depends so much on the quality of the voice talents. And if they don't give a damn about the characters they are acting, the whole anime falls apart!
 
Oct 22, 2010 12:01 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
It doesn't really matter where the company come from, aslong as they do a mediocre english dub, I'll complain.:P

You're complaining when you're not even the target audience. That's stupid. Wait for a dub to come out in for your/our area (if one does) and then you can complain if it sucks.
 
Oct 22, 2010 12:21 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
It doesn't really matter where the company come from, aslong as they do a mediocre english dub, I'll complain.:P


So if there is a bad original Japanese dub, will you complain then? Because it happens way more then you would think.


 
Oct 22, 2010 12:29 PM

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I prefer dubs but subs are fine too.
 
Oct 22, 2010 1:15 PM

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Kipcha said:
Queen_Stars said:
It doesn't really matter where the company come from, aslong as they do a mediocre english dub, I'll complain.:P


So if there is a bad original Japanese dub, will you complain then? Because it happens way more then you would think.


Definatley!
It doesn't matter where it comes from; if the voice doesn't suit, viewers have the right to their opinion.
I have been watching anime since I was a child, I'm now in my twenties; I'm fully aware that anyone can do a lousy job.
My only problem with a lot of US dubs is the fact that they seem to associate silly voices, conbined with censoring with animation to do with, just as they do in the non-though proviking western cartoons.

 
Oct 23, 2010 12:04 AM

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Queen_Stars said:
Kipcha said:
Queen_Stars said:
It doesn't really matter where the company come from, aslong as they do a mediocre english dub, I'll complain.:P


So if there is a bad original Japanese dub, will you complain then? Because it happens way more then you would think.


Definatley!
It doesn't matter where it comes from; if the voice doesn't suit, viewers have the right to their opinion.
I have been watching anime since I was a child, I'm now in my twenties; I'm fully aware that anyone can do a lousy job.
My only problem with a lot of US dubs is the fact that they seem to associate silly voices, conbined with censoring with animation to do with, just as they do in the non-though proviking western cartoons.


>censoring

I'll give you points for admitting you'd call the original bad when it warrants (though how you'll tell is beyond me), but do you think all distributors are 4kids? Censoring is the EXCEPTION, NOT the rule. (Don't make me say this again with size increase. Please.)

Also, western cartoons are more often meant for children than Japanese cartoons. They're not necessarily SUPPOSED to be thought-provoking or have any higher meaning than silly entertainment.
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Oct 23, 2010 12:25 AM

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Wow, this topic is still going.

Seems awfully 1990's on this page.
 
Oct 23, 2010 2:34 AM

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defenitly subs. Original audio is always the best
 
Oct 23, 2010 3:06 AM

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I've watched a handful of dubs, but usually I watch subs. The few anime's I watched as a kid were all dubbed and if I ever rewatched them I'd probably stick to the dubs just because that's what I'm used to. Aside from that most subs usually sound better so most anime I watch now is subbbed.
 
Oct 23, 2010 6:27 AM

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Kuyukly said:
Cezska said:
If you were to dub an anime, that wouldn't make Japan any special anymore :( Anime is a part of Japan. SUB IS FOREVER WIN! DUB GTFO.


Japan isn't special. Anime is just Japanese animation. There's nothing special about it.


ACTUALLY you’re wrong. I can name at least 34 things special about Japan. I can also name several special things about anime. Now let’s keep in mind, Anime is growing popularity around the world for the fact it is special. So to assist you in your mistake let me name 5 things special about both anime and Japan:
Japan:

1) Today, the Japanese music industry is the second largest in the world, behind the United States

2) Japan is the Largest Producer of Porn in the World.

3) Osaka is the 2nd Most Expensive City on Earth(Tokyo is #1).

4) Yokohama is the Largest Incorporated City in the World

5) Japan has the Lowest Crime Rate of any country. 1 in 100,000 Japanese commits a crime...in USA its +233 in 100,000

*6) Only 3% of Japan's Population is FAT...unlike the U.S. Pop. which is 34% FAT. Making the USA the FATTEST country on Earth. According to the UN, Japan is the healthiest nation on earth.(That was a bonus)

Next Anime:

1) MOST has long lasting storylines. That compared to the few non Japanese animations that rarely carry a story line past a episode or 3(at best)

2) The animation is special. It is drawn mostly to appeal to Japans cuteness culture.

3) The Voice Actors are excellent and they even sing for the anime

4) Anime Character Albums- NEVER has any non-anime animation had a character album.

5) Anime is mostly appealing to Teens and adults. Outside Japan most animation appeals to children or to families.

I rest my case.
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Oct 23, 2010 6:42 AM

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Okay, now I've read that post through a few times, I can reply.

. . . the fuck?

Are you on crack, or what. Most of those things have nothing to do with anything. Why is any of that important at all, much less reasoning why original audio is better?

I am curious to see your whole 34 though, not just five.
 
Oct 23, 2010 7:06 AM

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Lolicon said:
ACTUALLY you’re wrong. I can name at least 34 things special about Japan. I can also name several special things about anime. Now let’s keep in mind, Anime is growing popularity around the world for the fact it is special. So to assist you in your mistake let me name 5 things special about both anime and Japan:
Japan:

1) Today, the Japanese music industry is the second largest in the world, behind the United States

2) Japan is the Largest Producer of Porn in the World.

3) Osaka is the 2nd Most Expensive City on Earth(Tokyo is #1).

4) Yokohama is the Largest Incorporated City in the World

5) Japan has the Lowest Crime Rate of any country. 1 in 100,000 Japanese commits a crime...in USA its +233 in 100,000

*6) Only 3% of Japan's Population is FAT...unlike the U.S. Pop. which is 34% FAT. Making the USA the FATTEST country on Earth. According to the UN, Japan is the healthiest nation on earth.(That was a bonus)

Next Anime:

1) MOST has long lasting storylines. That compared to the few non Japanese animations that rarely carry a story line past a episode or 3(at best)

2) The animation is special. It is drawn mostly to appeal to Japans cuteness culture.

3) The Voice Actors are excellent and they even sing for the anime

4) Anime Character Albums- NEVER has any non-anime animation had a character album.

5) Anime is mostly appealing to Teens and adults. Outside Japan most animation appeals to children or to families.

I rest my case.


1) Japan sells a lot of American albums there, while we get none.

2) Nothing special.

3) That's only a result of the extremely large population density.

4) Yokohama is only the largest incorporated city in Japan

5) Most crimes go unreported, much more random groping.

6) Not being fat isn't something special, it should be the normal (if anything, the
U.S. is probably special for having such a large obese population).


1) You're grossly overestimating the size of Japanese anime which have long lasting stories (especially if we have to consider if they're good or not), and underestimating the amount of non-Japanese animation that don't.

2) Frame rate in anime is actually quite low. That's far behind American animation! Also, "cuteness" is overplayed and becoming downright boring.

3) Voice actors being excellent is subjective, people could say they sound annoying often enough because of high pitches, etc.

4) There are examples of Western animation doing this. I know for some Pixar films, the characters sung songs and were released on a soundtrack.

5) Nowadays, it 'appeals' for all the wrong reasons. Has to do with your username, too.
 
Oct 23, 2010 10:52 AM

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Guys, don't waste your time on him. He's a troll. He has been for years. He specifically hates me and one of my friends, so he's just attempting to antagonize me.

Though he probably actually believes his shit. Rofl.
You can find me on IRC.
 
Oct 23, 2010 12:36 PM

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I like how he says "2) Japan is the Largest Producer of Porn in the World." like it's something to be proud of.
 
Oct 23, 2010 1:30 PM

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Kuyukly said:
Queen_Stars said:
Kipcha said:
Queen_Stars said:
It doesn't really matter where the company come from, aslong as they do a mediocre english dub, I'll complain.:P


So if there is a bad original Japanese dub, will you complain then? Because it happens way more then you would think.


Definatley!
It doesn't matter where it comes from; if the voice doesn't suit, viewers have the right to their opinion.
I have been watching anime since I was a child, I'm now in my twenties; I'm fully aware that anyone can do a lousy job.
My only problem with a lot of US dubs is the fact that they seem to associate silly voices, conbined with censoring with animation to do with, just as they do in the non-though proviking western cartoons.


>censoring

I'll give you points for admitting you'd call the original bad when it warrants (though how you'll tell is beyond me), but do you think all distributors are 4kids? Censoring is the EXCEPTION, NOT the rule. (Don't make me say this again with size increase. Please.)

Also, western cartoons are more often meant for children than Japanese cartoons. They're not necessarily SUPPOSED to be thought-provoking or have any higher meaning than silly entertainment.


We have just more or less stated the same thing.
Where did I state rules? Or mention 4Kids? If you missunderstood, ask me what I ment...
The only thing I have stated is that I now accosiate western dubs (takeovers) with censoring, as once american (or wherever) gets hold of a lot of series' and make them 'politiaclly correct'; thinking that 'animation' = 'child friendly', however, us anime viewers know anime is suppose to have a deep storyline which suppasses the moralless, hyeractive stuff on our TV's.

 
Oct 23, 2010 2:14 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
The only thing I have stated is that I now accosiate western dubs (takeovers) with censoring, as once american (or wherever) gets hold of a lot of series' and make them 'politiaclly correct'; thinking that 'animation' = 'child friendly', however, us anime viewers know anime is suppose to have a deep storyline which suppasses the moralless, hyeractive stuff on our TV's.

He's pointing out that anime isn't censored in the west unless 4Kids gets a hold of it. Not all American licensing companies are 4Kids, therefore, hardly any anime gets censored, and only when it airs on certain tv stations like Disney XD.
Modified by Florete, Oct 23, 2010 5:14 PM
 
Oct 23, 2010 4:23 PM

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I watch both
this is because I am legally blind and used to think that I couldn't read subtitles but my reading has gotten faster and I make good use of the pause button but before I became sub savvy I became very attached to such people as Vic, Wendee Lee, Tiffany Grant and many others (can't spell vics last name teehee) so I tend to watch dubs when there is one readily available also I always watch Naruto and bleach dubbed which hasn't been a problem because I'm waaaaayyy behind in both series. Needless to say because I'm legally blind I have to look so close to the screen when I watch subtible that I fog up the screen LOL
 
Oct 23, 2010 5:35 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
The only thing I have stated is that I now accosiate western dubs (takeovers) with censoring, as once american (or wherever) gets hold of a lot of series' and make them 'politiaclly correct'; thinking that 'animation' = 'child friendly', however, us anime viewers know anime is suppose to have a deep storyline which suppasses the moralless, hyeractive stuff on our TV's.


Holy crap. Who do you think the target audience in Japan is for most of these shows? Have you seen how many Shonene and Shojo shows outnumber the more mature stuff? Japan might have a different idea of what kid-friendly is, but you can tell a lot of these shows are for those 18 and under.

If anything, American dubs add in extra stuff. The One Piece dubs from Funimation, for example, have "You son of a bitch", "I'll kill you you bastard", etc, added in.
 
Oct 24, 2010 1:31 PM

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Redfoxoffire said:
Queen_Stars said:
The only thing I have stated is that I now accosiate western dubs (takeovers) with censoring, as once american (or wherever) gets hold of a lot of series' and make them 'politiaclly correct'; thinking that 'animation' = 'child friendly', however, us anime viewers know anime is suppose to have a deep storyline which suppasses the moralless, hyeractive stuff on our TV's.


He's pointing out that anime isn't censored in the west unless 4Kids gets a hold of it. Not all American licensing companies are 4Kids, therefore, hardly any anime gets censored, and only when it airs on certain tv stations like Disney XD.


nerb said:
Holy crap. Who do you think the target audience in Japan is for most of these shows? Have you seen how many Shonene and Shojo shows outnumber the more mature stuff? Japan might have a different idea of what kid-friendly is, but you can tell a lot of these shows are for those 18 and under.

If anything, American dubs add in extra stuff. The One Piece dubs from Funimation, for example, have "You son of a bitch", "I'll kill you you bastard", etc, added in.


It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?

 
Oct 24, 2010 2:29 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?


Uncut stuff is fairly recent? Are you serious? Anime on DVD has been uncut since 2000, or even before that. In fact, most DVD releases today are uncut.
 
Oct 24, 2010 3:47 PM

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I found myself watching subs the most because i find the voices more fitting for the characters. In my opinion I don't really like dubs, but some are really good like DBZ or Cowboy Bebop.
 
Oct 24, 2010 4:42 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?


Alright, it would be one hell of a lot easier to understand if you took a moment to check your spelling, because I am not entirely sure what you're saying.

What I think you're saying is... the dialogue gets censored.... because the translation is inaccurate?
 
Oct 24, 2010 4:59 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?

No, you're misunderstanding. You're getting your idea of dubs from a very small portion of them. "Very small" as in probably <2%. Anything released on DVD in the west, like, ever, will be uncut. Not even all the stuff on tv is censored, since stations like Adult Swim and Syfy only censor some extreme violence, strong language, and nudity, meaning it's often enough they don't have to censor anything at all. It's the more kid-friendly networks like Cartoon Network that have to censor the shows a bit (and even CN was usually pretty good about it if the show wasn't from 4kids).
 
Oct 24, 2010 5:08 PM

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nerb said:
Queen_Stars said:
It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?


Alright, it would be one hell of a lot easier to understand if you took a moment to check your spelling, because I am not entirely sure what you're saying.

What I think you're saying is... the dialogue gets censored.... because the translation is inaccurate?


Check what spelling?
Obviously, you understand enough to reply, yet don't understand what I'm trying to state; doesn't mean my spelling's 100% dreadful.
Something you may not know; I'm actualy very dyslexic, struggle with antonym's and synonym's have also have an attention/communication difficulty; people have mistaken me as being new to the language, though I have actualy improved.

I'm refering to alterations that make a series more suitable to the Western audience, such as changing an object, name, age or sentence, e.g. Pokemon - Riceballs were turned into doughnuts and sandwiches, Fruits Basket - they avaoided the fact that Kyo's beads were rosary.
Dialouge isn't incorrect; it's just altered to appeal to us and appease politics, whereas they could simply re-created the exact script?

 
Oct 24, 2010 5:16 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
Check what spelling?
Obviously, you understand enough to reply, yet don't understand what I'm trying to state; doesn't mean my spelling's 100% dreadful.
Something you may not know; I'm actualy very dyslexic, struggle with antonym's and synonym's have also have an attention/communication difficulty; people have mistaken me as being new to the language, though I have actualy improved.

I'm refering to alterations that make a series more suitable to the Western audience, such as changing an object, name, age or sentence, e.g. Pokemon - Riceballs were turned into doughnuts and sandwiches, Fruits Basket - they avaoided the fact that Kyo's beads were rosary.
Dialouge isn't incorrect; it's just altered to appeal to us and appease politics, whereas they could simply re-created the exact script?

In that case, it's not censoring, it's localizing. In the right instances this is perfectly reasonable and should be done, some things of which even many fansub groups have started doing. Re-creating the exact script could easily come off as forced and unnatural.
 
Oct 24, 2010 5:19 PM

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Redfoxoffire said:
Queen_Stars said:
It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?

No, you're misunderstanding. You're getting your idea of dubs from a very small portion of them. "Very small" as in probably <2%. Anything released on DVD in the west, like, ever, will be uncut. Not even all the stuff on tv is censored, since stations like Adult Swim and Syfy only censor some extreme violence, strong language, and nudity, meaning it's often enough they don't have to censor anything at all. It's the more kid-friendly networks like Cartoon Network that have to censor the shows a bit (and even CN was usually pretty good about it if the show wasn't from 4kids).


I'm going by what I see. ;)
Here in the UK, where our only anime now is Pokemon, which is altered.
We did have Naruto, which was heavily censored into more or less ten minute ep's.
We did have Sailor Moon years back, yetthis was (and still is?) cencored.
We did have One Piece, which was about 10(?) years back, when 4Kids got it, though it was soon axed (along with that channel).
We did have DBZ, which was also censored, yet bytime the uncut had come out, the anime channel was dead (different channel to the above).

When I did finally find anime online some years back (when a lot of the streaming sites didn't exist), uploads were only ever TV - PC rips, even upto a year ago, every dub I watched was from an American TV station, which censored it's content.

Conbined the two paragraphs above, with a few unfitting voice actors, and the waiting time, bad impression is made.
Still, I don't disslike dubs; I'm torn and haven't voted.

It seems I have watched the minority (2%) you speak of?

Redfoxoffire said:
In that case, it's not censoring, it's localizing. In the right instances this is perfectly reasonable and should be done, some things of which even many fansub groups have started doing. Re-creating the exact script could easily come off as forced and unnatural.

That's a prfect way of putting it. ;)
Personally, I dissagree with these type of alterations.

 
Oct 24, 2010 5:19 PM

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Mostly subs, but some exceptions like Baccano, Cowboy Bebop, Beck, and most stuff with Johnny Yong Bosch (especially Trigun) I'll watch dubbed. Most of the time a dub just infringes on somethings artistic integrity, but occasionally the dub staff will be far better then the original seiyuus.
 
Oct 24, 2010 5:28 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
Redfoxoffire said:
In that case, it's not censoring, it's localizing. In the right instances this is perfectly reasonable and should be done, some things of which even many fansub groups have started doing. Re-creating the exact script could easily come off as forced and unnatural.

That's a prfect way of putting it. ;)
Personally, I dissagree with these type of alterations.

That line of thinking is dangerous, because if you take that all the way, you might as well leave everything untranslated. Japanese is such a glorious language that it cannot be translated without losing too much meaning, so why should we have the watered down version? We should learn Japanese and watch everything RAW so we can understand the full meaning!
 
Oct 24, 2010 5:33 PM
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ARXLaevatein said:
Queen_Stars said:
Redfoxoffire said:
In that case, it's not censoring, it's localizing. In the right instances this is perfectly reasonable and should be done, some things of which even many fansub groups have started doing. Re-creating the exact script could easily come off as forced and unnatural.

That's a prfect way of putting it. ;)
Personally, I dissagree with these type of alterations.

That line of thinking is dangerous, because if you take that all the way, you might as well leave everything untranslated. Japanese is such a glorious language that it cannot be translated without losing too much meaning, so why should we have the watered down version? We should learn Japanese and watch everything RAW so we can understand the full meaning!


This would be the best indeed I have to say, though I'm a dub friend myself. I don't know how much gets lost, especially humor-wise, because I can't speak Japanese yet, but I know how much often gets lost in german translations of originally english series or movie and I can tell you it's quite much.
But while not speaking japanese it doesn't matter much if it gets lost in the audio or in the text translation.
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
 
Oct 24, 2010 5:38 PM

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ARXLaevatein said:
Queen_Stars said:
Redfoxoffire said:
In that case, it's not censoring, it's localizing. In the right instances this is perfectly reasonable and should be done, some things of which even many fansub groups have started doing. Re-creating the exact script could easily come off as forced and unnatural.

That's a prfect way of putting it. ;)
Personally, I dissagree with these type of alterations.

That line of thinking is dangerous, because if you take that all the way, you might as well leave everything untranslated. Japanese is such a glorious language that it cannot be translated without losing too much meaning, so why should we have the watered down version? We should learn Japanese and watch everything RAW so we can understand the full meaning!


You have a good point
Still, I don't think it's a dangerous way ofthinking, as I feel nobody really has a load of right to alter something that has already went out, especially if it's from another culture, as this will only supress our worldly knowledge, all to make sure the foreign audience doesn't get confused of offended.
I'm one of those people who will stop watching/listening if I don't like something instead of complaining or hiding it; aslong as it's something trivial like this.
I better add; I hae been trying to educate myself in Japanese for years; it's suppose to be one of the easier languages; I dissagree. :(

As for the 'uncut' thing before, this is new, atleast 2005 as far as I know.
As stated, I'm unable to watch it on TV, have no choice but to buy which, up untill not long ago, was unavaliable where I live, otherwise, you go online and watch versions that are widespread; the old cencored ones.

 
Oct 24, 2010 6:09 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
I'm going by what I see. ;)
Here in the UK, where our only anime now is Pokemon, which is altered.
We did have Naruto, which was heavily censored into more or less ten minute ep's.
We did have Sailor Moon years back, yetthis was (and still is?) cencored.
We did have One Piece, which was about 10(?) years back, when 4Kids got it, though it was soon axed (along with that channel).
We did have DBZ, which was also censored, yet bytime the uncut had come out, the anime channel was dead (different channel to the above).

Then it's as I stated; a very small portion. Although I admit I didn't know anime in the UK was censored so heavily, though doesn't "West" usually refer to the Americas anyway?

When I did finally find anime online some years back (when a lot of the streaming sites didn't exist), uploads were only ever TV - PC rips, even upto a year ago, every dub I watched was from an American TV station, which censored it's content.

I have no idea where you found this. I'd have a hard time finding any censored anime online these days. At least more censored than some Japanese airings already are.

That's a prfect way of putting it. ;)
Personally, I dissagree with these type of alterations.

Well, I can't really stop you there, but as has been stated it's a dangerous way of thinking. Some things are just meant to be translated, and sometimes if you don't things just won't make sense. This isn't "preserving culture" or whatever sub fans may want to call it, it's alienating viewers (depending on what is or isn't changed, of course). Localization in dubs these days is generally scarce anyway, depending on how you look at it; it's not like they change names or anything. Jokes are only changed if needed (and not even always then), animation is pretty much never altered (specific broadcasting stations aside)...
 
Oct 24, 2010 7:18 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
Check what spelling?
Obviously, you understand enough to reply, yet don't understand what I'm trying to state; doesn't mean my spelling's 100% dreadful.
Something you may not know; I'm actualy very dyslexic, struggle with antonym's and synonym's have also have an attention/communication difficulty; people have mistaken me as being new to the language, though I have actualy improved.

I'm refering to alterations that make a series more suitable to the Western audience, such as changing an object, name, age or sentence, e.g. Pokemon - Riceballs were turned into doughnuts and sandwiches, Fruits Basket - they avaoided the fact that Kyo's beads were rosary.
Dialouge isn't incorrect; it's just altered to appeal to us and appease politics, whereas they could simply re-created the exact script?


Hell man, if you'll notice, I didn't say anything bad about your language skills, just that one post. That "TV-PC" and "serie" threw me off a bit. No big deal.

Anyway, now I get it. Like other people said, you're talking about the localization. Do you have any examples other than that? Pokemon is a tv-edited show for children, and the translators assume kids are morons and won't understand that rice can be shaped into a ball. As for Fruits Basket, I haven't seen it, but calling a Rosary beads isn't really that major. Most people call them necklaces anyway.
 
Oct 24, 2010 11:14 PM

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Queen_Stars said:
Redfoxoffire said:
Queen_Stars said:
It seems both of you have missunderstood...
A lot of uploads I have seen haven't been DVD rips, yet TV-PC serise's.
All I have stated is that a good amount of anime, bytime it has been dubbed by the west, gets censored to a degree.

Ofcorse I know all dubbing companies aren't 4kids and I have watched enough anime over the years to know that the 'uncut' stuff is fairly recent, still, discrete cencoring goes on regular; swearing being in corporated is nothing, content (what's said) is often altered however.

Perhaps we're all just into different series's?

No, you're misunderstanding. You're getting your idea of dubs from a very small portion of them. "Very small" as in probably <2%. Anything released on DVD in the west, like, ever, will be uncut. Not even all the stuff on tv is censored, since stations like Adult Swim and Syfy only censor some extreme violence, strong language, and nudity, meaning it's often enough they don't have to censor anything at all. It's the more kid-friendly networks like Cartoon Network that have to censor the shows a bit (and even CN was usually pretty good about it if the show wasn't from 4kids).


I'm going by what I see. ;)
Here in the UK, where our only anime now is Pokemon, which is altered.
We did have Naruto, which was heavily censored into more or less ten minute ep's.
We did have Sailor Moon years back, yetthis was (and still is?) cencored.
We did have One Piece, which was about 10(?) years back, when 4Kids got it, though it was soon axed (along with that channel).
We did have DBZ, which was also censored, yet bytime the uncut had come out, the anime channel was dead (different channel to the above).


Your forgetting another detail. The U.K. adultswim aired Air Gear (Uncut), Black Cat, and lots of more titles compared to the U.S. program, and no U.K. actually had the Funi One Piece dub about 1 month more than when it was axed of US airing.
 
Oct 24, 2010 11:23 PM

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Kusaragi said:
The U.K. adultswim aired Air Gear (Uncut), Black Cat, and lots of more titles compared to the U.S. program, and no U.K. actually had the Funi One Piece dub about 1 month more than when it was axed of US airing.


Seriously?
 
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