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Nov 8, 2014 8:43 AM

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HaruHaru304 said:
I used to think FSN 2006 was the best anime since sliced bread. Now I recognize it as a badly paced train wreck. At the time though, I think it performed its job of introducing me to the visual novel and all of the characters.

I prefer this new version that's airing right now.

Not a fan of Fate Zero. It's also badly paced, feels like it's missing out chunks of content, don't care about a majority of the characters. As a whole, it seemed unnecessary. It had a nice, albeit pointless chibi-Rin cameo and mind blowing visual quality.

Definitely not 'better written', imo. If you throw all of those pretty visuals on the FSN 2006 anime but leave it with the same convoluted train wreck of an ill paced story, they'll come across as rather similar.

One redeeming feature? RIIIIDEEEEERRRR. Who was ultimately just fodder for the antagonist anyway.


Oh God wish I hadn't read that.
 
Nov 8, 2014 9:05 AM

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robis798 said:
Oh God wish I hadn't read that.


BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.
 
Nov 8, 2014 9:52 AM

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Kyouraku-san said:
FSN=F/Z.


I read that as "Fate Stay Night equals Fate divided by zero".

...

So, is FSN undefined, or equal to complex infinite?
 
Nov 8, 2014 10:57 AM

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WolfteamHacks said:
f/z is better written,..but both are action series for teens
Try harder
Higashi_no_Kaze said:
Different Writer.

FSN has a cast full of teens and F/Z mostly focuses on adults. For me that's been the biggest difference because it makes for a different tone/atmosphere/focus/character chemistry.

The adults dont really think about their actions unlike the teens tho.
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Nov 8, 2014 3:01 PM

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StefanHere said:
from someone who has just seen Zero and 4 episodes of UBW

Zero feels more adult and UBW teenage


Higashi_no_Kaze said:
Different Writer.

FSN has a cast full of teens and F/Z mostly focuses on adults. For me that's been the biggest difference because it makes for a different tone/atmosphere/focus/character chemistry.


Yup Yup. That's probably why some people are saying they didn't enjoy Fate/Zero as much. I personally loved Fate/Zero. Am currently playing the visual novel. Lets see if its changing my view too. But till now from the comparison of VN and the full fate/Zero series I've seen, F/Z definitely seems targeted towards older audience since there's no such thing as a school setting anywhere in the show. All master are grown ups. That's also what appealed to me since I'm also from 30+ group. And personally I enjoyed the dialogues, the chivalry that the servants show in the series fully.

All that said, I'm also happy that Ufotable is keeping good continuity between F/Z and F/SN UBW. atleast the atmosphere in this adaptation of F/SN is way better than Deen's 2006 Fate Rout which I had starting thinking was just a stupid harem anime especially after watching F/Z :P
Modified by asckj1, Nov 8, 2014 3:06 PM
 
Nov 8, 2014 3:16 PM

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asckj1 said:
StefanHere said:
from someone who has just seen Zero and 4 episodes of UBW

Zero feels more adult and UBW teenage


Higashi_no_Kaze said:
Different Writer.

FSN has a cast full of teens and F/Z mostly focuses on adults. For me that's been the biggest difference because it makes for a different tone/atmosphere/focus/character chemistry.


Yup Yup. That's probably why some people are saying they didn't enjoy Fate/Zero as much. I personally loved Fate/Zero. Am currently playing the visual novel. Lets see if its changing my view too. But till now from the comparison of VN and the full fate/Zero series I've seen, F/Z definitely seems targeted towards older audience since there's no such thing as a school setting anywhere in the show. All master are grown ups. That's also what appealed to me since I'm also from 30+ group. And personally I enjoyed the dialogues, the chivalry that the servants show in the series fully.

All that said, I'm also happy that Ufotable is keeping good continuity between F/Z and F/SN UBW. atleast the atmosphere in this adaptation of F/SN is way better than Deen's 2006 Fate Rout which I had starting thinking was just a stupid harem anime especially after watching F/Z :P
Just so you know.FZ's target audience is the same as FSN's.FSN has a school as a place of events,it does NOT have a school setting.

Think of Durarara.Some chars are at high school but the plot has nothing to do with it.
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Nov 8, 2014 3:20 PM

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Topic Moved
Belongs under the anime being discussed.

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Nov 11, 2014 4:31 AM

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HaruHaru304 said:
I used to think FSN 2006 was the best anime since sliced bread. Now I recognize it as a badly paced train wreck. At the time though, I think it performed its job of introducing me to the visual novel and all of the characters.

I prefer this new version that's airing right now.

Not a fan of Fate Zero. It's also badly paced, feels like it's missing out chunks of content, don't care about a majority of the characters. As a whole, it seemed unnecessary. It had a nice, albeit pointless chibi-Rin cameo and mind blowing visual quality.

Definitely not 'better written', imo. If you throw all of those pretty visuals on the FSN 2006 anime but leave it with the same convoluted train wreck of an ill paced story, they'll come across as rather similar.

One redeeming feature? RIIIIDEEEEERRRR. Who was ultimately just fodder for the antagonist anyway.


Yep, gen's terrible at making interesting characters, save for rider. Kiritsugu is literally the worst character in the series. He had sex with a mental baby. He's a fucking pedophile.
 
Nov 11, 2014 4:49 AM
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WakameHead said:
HaruHaru304 said:
I used to think FSN 2006 was the best anime since sliced bread. Now I recognize it as a badly paced train wreck. At the time though, I think it performed its job of introducing me to the visual novel and all of the characters.

I prefer this new version that's airing right now.

Not a fan of Fate Zero. It's also badly paced, feels like it's missing out chunks of content, don't care about a majority of the characters. As a whole, it seemed unnecessary. It had a nice, albeit pointless chibi-Rin cameo and mind blowing visual quality.

Definitely not 'better written', imo. If you throw all of those pretty visuals on the FSN 2006 anime but leave it with the same convoluted train wreck of an ill paced story, they'll come across as rather similar.

One redeeming feature? RIIIIDEEEEERRRR. Who was ultimately just fodder for the antagonist anyway.


Yep, gen's terrible at making interesting characters, save for rider. Kiritsugu is literally the worst character in the series. He had sex with a mental baby. He's a fucking pedophile.
don't think people with Shinji avatars have any rights to judge anyone

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Nov 11, 2014 4:53 AM

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HaXXspetten said:
WakameHead said:


Yep, gen's terrible at making interesting characters, save for rider. Kiritsugu is literally the worst character in the series. He had sex with a mental baby. He's a fucking pedophile.
don't think people with Shinji avatars have any rights to judge anyone


I've never impregnated babies or little girls.
Shinji likes mature women.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 11, 2014 4:58 AM
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:03 AM

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One has Rider and Waver and... hmm, yeah that's pretty much.
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:10 AM

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huntx said:
One has Rider and Waver and... hmm, yeah that's pretty much.


Waver was a loser. But he did get a little bit of development around the end and he turned into a badass after the war. Still thought that they should have been in a different holy grail entirely. Considering their comedic moments, they were so out of place among all the grim derp. They should have been in any of the wars besides the fourth and fifth one, and Waver totally could have been the main character. Hell, I'd watch that. Rider and Waver are the fate/zero version of Kamina and Simon, why wouldn't I wanna watch it?
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 11, 2014 5:26 AM
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:22 AM

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Someone has to release a fanservice ova or movie about them having fun just like the other anime about Buddha and Jesus living together.
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:26 AM

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huntx said:
Someone has to release a fanservice ova or movie about them having fun just like the other anime about Buddha and Jesus living together.


That'd be awesome. Dang, I need to watch that show.
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:27 AM

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Adult characters=aimed for adults
Teen characters=aimed for kids
Lol
 
Nov 11, 2014 10:03 AM
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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:
f/z is better written,..but both are action series for teens
Try harder
Higashi_no_Kaze said:
Different Writer.

FSN has a cast full of teens and F/Z mostly focuses on adults. For me that's been the biggest difference because it makes for a different tone/atmosphere/focus/character chemistry.

The adults dont really think about their actions unlike the teens tho.

Huh? fate zero is better written at least for me.. or at least so far
dialogue.
 
Nov 11, 2014 10:08 AM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
Try harder

The adults dont really think about their actions unlike the teens tho.

Huh? fate zero is better written at least for me.. or at least so far
dialogue.

You mean content of dialogue.

Shirou's and Rin's issues are more interesting.The only thing taht come close to them is Kirei and Gil scenes.
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Nov 11, 2014 11:50 AM
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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:

Huh? fate zero is better written at least for me.. or at least so far
dialogue.

You mean content of dialogue.

Shirou's and Rin's issues are more interesting.The only thing taht come close to them is Kirei and Gil scenes.
i do not mean that.. mmm eg, dialogue full of technicalities, as in ep 2 or the introduction of ilya
thre are a couple of other things ... like the character with purple hair ... it sucks, but do not bother me muc
 
Nov 11, 2014 12:06 PM

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I dont really get what you mean.
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Nov 11, 2014 12:55 PM
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FakePriest said:
I dont really get what you mean.
i mean long explanations .some jargon-filled dialogue
and other
talks amid battle between ilya and rin. or when ilya leaving from the fight ... was ....shitty shonen
do you understand?
Modified by wulfHkz, Nov 11, 2014 1:02 PM
 
Nov 11, 2014 1:02 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
I dont really get what you mean.
i mean long explanations .some jargon-filled dialogue
and other
talks amid battle between ilya and rin. or when ilya leaving from the fight ... was ....shitty shonen
Should have guessed.

I see that you forgot the "shitty shonen dialogue" of FZ and the retreats of the Servants in FZ.
And yes there is a reason for those.Fighting to the death isnt "seinen" when the chars ignore all reason and goals.
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Nov 11, 2014 1:46 PM

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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:
i mean long explanations .some jargon-filled dialogue
and other
talks amid battle between ilya and rin. or when ilya leaving from the fight ... was ....shitty shonen
Should have guessed.

I see that you forgot the "shitty shonen dialogue" of FZ and the retreats of the Servants in FZ.
And yes there is a reason for those.Fighting to the death isnt "seinen" when the chars ignore all reason and goals.


^ this so much.

F/Z spoiler and F/SN UBW spoiler up to episode 5



Unfortunately, it appears as if everyone is too used to Kiritsugu's cold-blooded logic and disregard the personalities, motivations, and goals that drive the actions of every character, many of which did not and will not result in the most efficient result possible. It's more unfortunate that this is overlooked because the characters are adults, but scrutinized when the characters are teenagers.
Modified by ZeroDragon, Nov 11, 2014 1:50 PM
 
Nov 11, 2014 1:49 PM

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Ckan said:
insan3priest said:
There is no way this isn't on purpose.....
You overestimate people.

this^
 
Nov 11, 2014 1:52 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
I dont really get what you mean.
i mean long explanations .some jargon-filled dialogue
and other
talks amid battle between ilya and rin. or when ilya leaving from the fight ... was ....shitty shonen
do you understand?

Don't forget to pull out the victim card when the fans get annoyed at you.
And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible.
 
Nov 11, 2014 2:07 PM

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The whole issue of them constantly stopping in the middle of fights, the "shitty shounen" aspects, are artifacts of adaptation. Both F/Z and F/SN were originally novels, in the sense of being walls of text accompanied by a few still images. A battle that is interesting to watch is different from a battle that is interesting to read. In the process of making an anime adaptation you try and cut out the dialogue wherever you can, but often the fights are structured such that there's a lot you can't cut out, because it simply won't make sense if you do. That's why there's so much exposition mid battle.

In that regard, F/Z is no different from F/SN. Anytime Saber and Lancer meet, there's guaranteed to be more exposition than actual fighting.

It's associated with shounen manga because manga, although it has a different text/image ratio, is fundamentally the same thing. Interesting to read vs. interesting to watch. Hence why there's so much exposition mid-battle.

Consequently, because you almost inevitably cut out exposition in the process of adaptation, a lot of the time you treat anime as an accompaniment (rather than an alternative) to the original. Less so with manga, but more so with "novel" adaptations, especially exposition heavy novels like the fate franchise. F/Z leaves out a lot of content from the novel, for example. Bottom line is, novel adaptations are going to be exposition heavy, even if it's an "action" show.

That being the case... what the fuck did you expect.
 
Nov 11, 2014 3:28 PM
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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:
i mean long explanations .some jargon-filled dialogue
and other
talks amid battle between ilya and rin. or when ilya leaving from the fight ... was ....shitty shonen
Should have guessed.

I see that you forgot the "shitty shonen dialogue" of FZ and the retreats of the Servants in FZ.
And yes there is a reason for those.Fighting to the death isnt "seinen" when the chars ignore all reason and goals.
could be...
but ubw is still higher level of ridiculousness that fate zero in that sense
and the "jargon-filled dialogue", well ... almost an entire episode
 
Nov 11, 2014 3:37 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
Should have guessed.

I see that you forgot the "shitty shonen dialogue" of FZ and the retreats of the Servants in FZ.
And yes there is a reason for those.Fighting to the death isnt "seinen" when the chars ignore all reason and goals.
could be...
but ubw is still higher level of ridiculousness that fate zero in that sense
and the "jargon-filled dialogue", well ... almost an entire episode


Forget about this?



It was a double length episode too. 46 straight minutes of exposition.
 
Nov 11, 2014 4:34 PM

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ZeroDragon said:



Spoilers for F/Z and UBW
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:12 PM

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Unfortunately, it appears as if everyone is too used to Kiritsugu's cold-blooded logic and disregard the personalities, motivations, and goals that drive the actions of every character, many of which did not and will not result in the most efficient result possible. It's more unfortunate that this is overlooked because the characters are adults, but scrutinized when the characters are teenagers.


Couldn't agree more.

could be...
but ubw is still higher level of ridiculousness that fate zero in that sense
and the "jargon-filled dialogue", well ... almost an entire episode


You're right. Spaceship battles, wheelchair assassinations and machine gun fights aren't ridiculous at all.

FATE ZERO IS SO DARK AND MATURE.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 11, 2014 5:39 PM
 
Nov 11, 2014 5:42 PM

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WakameHead said:
You're right. Spaceship battles, wheelchair assassinations and machine gun fights aren't ridiculous at all.

FATE ZERO IS SO DARK AND MATURE.

It doesn't count because they're all adults though :^)
And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible.
 
Nov 11, 2014 6:07 PM

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JabonHR said:
WakameHead said:
You're right. Spaceship battles, wheelchair assassinations and machine gun fights aren't ridiculous at all.

FATE ZERO IS SO DARK AND MATURE.

It doesn't count because they're all adults though :^)


Yep :)

Fate zero is like Gurren Lagann...except it takes itself very seriously.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 11, 2014 6:12 PM
 
Nov 11, 2014 6:31 PM

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kokusho36 said:
ZeroDragon said:



Spoilers for F/Z and UBW


Your first three paragraphs just serve to prove my point. Because of their personalities, they took the actions they did instead of the most efficient action that would have given them the most benefit in the war. There is nothing confusing about it because it's just who they are.

Your fourth paragraph contradicts itself.

The fifth paragraph regarding the Grail Dialogue also proves my point. The servants had their own values and wouldn't do such a thing.

The fact that your argument centers around "it is NOT clear" and "do NOT know why" puts you leagues above the average complainer. In this regard, you absolutely do have the right to complain. One of F/SN's weakness in my opinion is that it leaves some questions unanswered too long and how some things don't come together until much later in the route or even across different routes. Sometimes there are things that aren't obvious or don't appear to be foreshadowed enough, but then they make complete sense in retrospect. All I can say at this point is to just be patient and things will hopefully be revealed with time.

Now that being said, there's an absurd amount of people who recognize that the characters in Fate/Zero act the way they do because of their personalities, motivations, and goals, but completely disregard those aspects when watching Fate/Stay Night. Without F/SN putting those things in their face like F/Z did, they don't even consider that these characters all have their reasons for acting the way they do. What's worse, they don't even consider that it'll be explained later as the story progresses but instead proceed to bash the characters for being stupid and assume they know everything even though they are dead wrong. Without things being explicitly made obvious, they can't speculate or imply things, or even just be patient.
 
Nov 11, 2014 9:39 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
Should have guessed.

I see that you forgot the "shitty shonen dialogue" of FZ and the retreats of the Servants in FZ.
And yes there is a reason for those.Fighting to the death isnt "seinen" when the chars ignore all reason and goals.
could be...
but ubw is still higher level of ridiculousness that fate zero in that sense
and the "jargon-filled dialogue", well ... almost an entire episode
Sorry, but you make no sense since you arent being specific.

But I am gonna assume that you dont like that this isnt treated as a sequel of FZ and tries to explain everything to newcomers that haven't watched FZ.

FZ had its fair share of jargon-filled dialogue.That FZ had mostly-dumb and/or low level magi-adults doesnt change that.
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Nov 12, 2014 2:16 AM

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ZeroDragon said:
Now that being said, there's an absurd amount of people who recognize that the characters in Fate/Zero act the way they do because of their personalities, motivations, and goals, but completely disregard those aspects when watching Fate/Stay Night. Without F/SN putting those things in their face like F/Z did, they don't even consider that these characters all have their reasons for acting the way they do. What's worse, they don't even consider that it'll be explained later as the story progresses but instead proceed to bash the characters for being stupid and assume they know everything even though they are dead wrong. Without things being explicitly made obvious, they can't speculate or imply things, or even just be patient.


It isn't necessary to put personalities and motivations in our faces to make us realize that there's something strange in a certain situation. Example:

 
Nov 12, 2014 2:33 AM

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But they dont have to give us "info" so early.Archer's reason will be "in our faces" later on.
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Nov 12, 2014 2:50 AM

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FakePriest said:
But they dont have to give us "info" so early.Archer's reason will be "in our faces" later on.


The problem isn't that we don't know Archer's reason, it's the fact that we don't even know that Archer had something to hide, and this results in a very confusing scene.
 
Nov 12, 2014 3:28 AM

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kokusho36 said:
FakePriest said:
But they dont have to give us "info" so early.Archer's reason will be "in our faces" later on.


The problem isn't that we don't know Archer's reason, it's the fact that we don't even know that Archer had something to hide, and this results in a very confusing scene.


So basically, you want Nasu to hold your hand throughout the whole story, like Gen did?

You want him to stay stuff at the very beginning like:

"Kiritsugu and the heroic spirit Arturia will never get along."

or

"Iri, I don't know why, but even though I've never met this kirei guy before, he's going to become my biggest threat."

Do you seriously want the writer to treat you like a complete retard and just shove everything in your face? Because that's just terrible writing. It's one thing if the writer never reveals the secrets that he's being very subtle about, but it's another if they're practically shoving important future developments of the plot down your throat from the very beginning.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 3:40 AM
 
Nov 12, 2014 3:50 AM

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WakameHead said:
kokusho36 said:


The problem isn't that we don't know Archer's reason, it's the fact that we don't even know that Archer had something to hide, and this results in a very confusing scene.


So basically, you want Nasu to hold your hand throughout the whole story, like Gen did?

You want him to stay stuff at the very beginning like:

"Kiritsugu and the heroic spirit Arturia will never get along."

or

"Iri, I don't know why, but even though I've never met this kirei guy before, he's going to become my biggest threat."

Do you seriously want the writer to treat you like a complete retard and just shove everything in your face? Because that's terrible writing.


I already explained my point, you're distorting and exaggerating it.
If I had been a newcomer to fate, I could have seen myself dropping UBW after ep. 3, because it felt like unenjoyable mess of an episode that left me scratching my head.
Those scenes I pointed out were a common target of complaint in the ep. discussion, and if people have to come to a forum to be reassured that F/SN isn't as dumb as it looked, perhaps Nasu/Ufotable are guilty of this "terrible writing" you speak of.

Please, try and explain to me why the scene I changed isn't better than the original.
 
Nov 12, 2014 3:52 AM

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You realize that the people that always come and complain are always the same people for whatever reason, or dont just pay attention?
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Nov 12, 2014 4:09 AM

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FakePriest said:
You realize that the people that always come and complain are always the same people for whatever reason, or dont just pay attention?


"Not paying attention" was the only way for a newcomer to fully enjoy episode 3. I've explained why some scenes are confusing after I paid attention to them.
The "haters" excuse only works when there's nothing to complain about (which is not the case).
 
Nov 12, 2014 4:13 AM

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You are getting ridiculous now.
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Nov 12, 2014 4:32 AM

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I already explained my point, you're distorting and exaggerating it.
If I had been a newcomer to fate, I could have seen myself dropping UBW after ep. 3, because it felt like unenjoyable mess of an episode that left me scratching my head.
Those scenes I pointed out were a common target of complaint in the ep. discussion, and if people have to come to a forum to be reassured that F/SN isn't as dumb as it looked, perhaps Nasu/Ufotable are guilty of this "terrible writing" you speak of.

Please, try and explain to me why the scene I changed isn't better than the original.


Well, if you're a newcomer to fate and if you're confused about what's happening then you shouldn't start with UBW because it's the second arc. Yeah, I said it. They can either watch the crap adaption or read the fate route on youtube.

Most of the viewers are people who go on the internet, which means that they would be more likely to do some research on the show before they decide to go out of their way to download it to watch it. By doing that research, they should realize that UBW is an adaption of one of the story arc's of a game that also has a ton of spin offs. So going off of that information, it should be easy for them to assume that the plot will slowly be explained as the the story progresses, or that not everything will be explained because it's the second arc.
Not to mention, not all newcomers are as confused and annoyed about the episode 3 as you are. Youtubers that are new to fate stay night like AnimeCenTRUL, Suti and Blaze rather enjoy it, because they're taking it in strides, something that I suggest you consider doing.

And no one should judge a show until they've watched the whole thing, because they won't realize that things will be explained later on otherwise. Especially if it's a big thing like Fate Stay night, they should already know that not everything is what it seems considering how popular it is.

You can either wait patiently and enjoy the story as it progresses, or you can wait until the whole show is over so that you can watch it all in one sitting without pondering over the events happening in each episode.

Or you can just watch Naruto. The choice is yours.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 4:43 AM
 
Nov 12, 2014 4:52 AM

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WakameHead said:
"Kiritsugu and the heroic spirit Arturia will never get along."

or

"Iri, I don't know why, but even though I've never met this kirei guy before, he's going to become my biggest threat."
You do realize that it is pointless to criticize both of these things considering you are SUPPOSED to walk into F/Z knowing them right? F/SN outright spills them out for you afterall.
 
Nov 12, 2014 5:06 AM

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BotatoPriest said:
WakameHead said:
"Kiritsugu and the heroic spirit Arturia will never get along."

or

"Iri, I don't know why, but even though I've never met this kirei guy before, he's going to become my biggest threat."
You do realize that it is pointless to criticize both of these things considering you are SUPPOSED to walk into F/Z knowing them right? F/SN outright spills them out for you afterall.


Actually, yes, there is a point. I'm criticizing Gen for being a terrible writer because he doesn't let his viewers think, not because he's spoiling his readers from the start.

By watching how Saber and Kiritsugu react with one other throughout the story, most people can figure out that they don't get along very well without Gen even mentioning it. I don't need the writer telling me straight up from the very beginning that they won't see eye to eye, before I even see the two of them interacting. I'm not fucking retarded.

It's the same thing for the second one, where he forces the rivalry between the two from the very beginning when they haven't even met. From what Kiritsugu hears about Kirei, I can imagine him thinking that he's a potential threat, but I don't seem him thinking of him as his mortal enemy from the very start. No, Gen didn't need all of that "Hmm..this Kiritsugu man is interesting for some reason" bull crap. Kiritsugu's ideals would naturally clash with Kirei's anyway once Kirei got his character development, so all of that interest with one another from the very start was unnatural and forced.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 5:41 AM
 
Nov 12, 2014 5:37 AM
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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:
could be...
but ubw is still higher level of ridiculousness that fate zero in that sense
and the "jargon-filled dialogue", well ... almost an entire episode
Sorry, but you make no sense since you arent being specific.

But I am gonna assume that you dont like that this isnt treated as a sequel of FZ and tries to explain everything to newcomers that haven't watched FZ.

FZ had its fair share of jargon-filled dialogue.That FZ had mostly-dumb and/or low level magi-adults doesnt change that.
i mean the dialogue, i said before
 
Nov 12, 2014 5:39 AM

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WakameHead said:
BotatoPriest said:
You do realize that it is pointless to criticize both of these things considering you are SUPPOSED to walk into F/Z knowing them right? F/SN outright spills them out for you afterall.


Actually, yes, there is a point. I'm criticizing Gen for being a terrible writer because he doesn't let his viewers think, not because he's spoiling his readers from the start.

By watching how Saber and Kiritsugu react with one other throughout the story, most people can figure out that they don't get along very well without Gen even mentioning it. I don't need the writer telling me straight up from the very beginning that they won't see eye to eye, before I even see the two of them interacting. I'm not fucking retarded.

It's the same thing for the second one, where he forces the rivalry between the two from the very beginning when they haven't even met. From what Kiritsugu hears about Kirei, I can imagine him thinking that he's potential threat, but I don't seem him thinking of him as his mortal enemy from the very start. No, Gen didn't need all of that "Hmm..this Kiritsugu man is interesting for some reason" bull crap. Kiritsugu's ideals would naturally clash with Kirei's anyway once Kirei got his character development, so all of that interest with one another from the very start was unnatural and forced.
Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make was that the original comparison is moot since F/Z assumes you already know how the relationships between Kerry and Kirie/Saber goes. It is not spoiling anything.

Basically what I am saying is if kokusho36 wants to praise F/Z for being "clear" right off the bat then he should just remember that it is in fact NOT "making things clear" but rather repeating stuff you ALREADY know. When you started playing the same game as him I just felt like butting in. F/Z is NOT a standalone.

Now that this is out of the way,

kokusho36 said:
If I had been a newcomer to fate, I could have seen myself dropping UBW after ep. 3, because it felt like unenjoyable mess of an episode that left me scratching my head.
That's just you. The score jumped from 8.84 to 8.90 after episode 3. Like it or not most people enjoyed the shit out of it.

kokusho36 said:
Those scenes I pointed out were a common target of complaint in the ep. discussion, and if people have to come to a forum to be reassured that F/SN isn't as dumb as it looked, perhaps Nasu/Ufotable are guilty of this "terrible writing" you speak of.
Sorry but anyone who is watching without being deadset on hating would think that Archer's smirk means something, which would reassure them that there are "stuff" that will be revealed later so it's not a "mess." Especially considering about 7 minutes earlier Kirei does that exact same smirk after saying things that clearly show he is evil, or at least has evil intentions.

Furthermore, that specific complaint was discussed to death, and if you missed there were even more than enough reasons for Archer to do what he did that people who paid attention noticed, and posted them in the thread, best part is none of them were from future material or the VN. Someone even stated that he respects the anime even more for being so elaborate at showcasing Archer's mysterious intentions.

As for Illya's sudden interest in Archer, she sees that he is shit as a Servant due to low stats and tells Berserker to ignore him because he's just some boring small fry. Then he proceeds to nuke the place like it's nothing. Rin doesn't know what Archer's weapons and NPs are because she doesn't know who he is, as we have seen in the prologue. Yet she knew that the last arrow he launched was a Rank-A NP. So it's not a farfetched assumption that Illya knew what that was as well.
Tl;dr she thought Archer was crap, then he pulled a Chuck Norris for the lolz; why WOULDN'T she find that interesting?
 
Nov 12, 2014 5:51 AM

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BotatoPriest said:

Tl;dr she thought Archer was crap, then he pulled a Chuck Norris for the lolz; why WOULDN'T she find that interesting?

Because they are teenagers.
 
Nov 12, 2014 5:56 AM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
Sorry, but you make no sense since you arent being specific.

But I am gonna assume that you dont like that this isnt treated as a sequel of FZ and tries to explain everything to newcomers that haven't watched FZ.

FZ had its fair share of jargon-filled dialogue.That FZ had mostly-dumb and/or low level magi-adults doesnt change that.
i mean the dialogue, i said before

We are getting nowhere like this.

So, explain to me why FZ's dialogue is better.What exactly makes it better?
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Nov 12, 2014 6:07 AM

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[quote]
Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make was that the original comparison is moot since F/Z assumes you already know how the relationships between Kerry and Kirie/Saber goes. It is not spoiling anything.

Basically what I am saying is if kokusho36 wants to praise F/Z for being "clear" right off the bat then he should just remember that it is in fact NOT "making things clear" but rather repeating stuff you ALREADY know. When you started playing the same game as him I just felt like butting in. F/Z is NOT a standalone.

[/spoiler]

Yeah, I agree with you. What Gen did at the beginning doesn't spoil things for people like us, who started with Fate stay night first. It's different for those poor fellows that started with fate zero, but they shouldn't have watched fate zero first in the first place. There's definitely a reason why newcomers to the fate series didn't really understand the ending of fate zero.
 
Nov 12, 2014 6:54 AM
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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:
i mean the dialogue, i said before

We are getting nowhere like this.

So, explain to me why FZ's dialogue is better.What exactly makes it better?
but if i said
 jargon-filled dialogue, almost every episode 2 and ridiculous conversations in ep 3. those are things i do not like
dont remember that kind of stuff at f/z ... well not at the level of idiocy in ubw
other than that, i dont have many problems ... i like ubw, except so far f/z i think it's better written
 
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