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Nov 12, 2014 7:04 AM

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As I said FZ was filled with jargon-filled dialogue from the very first ep.

And you mean explaining the rules of war to an outsider ridiculous?That happened in FZ as well.

And that isnt being specific.Being specific means taking one of those dialogues and explaining WHY they are bad.
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Nov 12, 2014 7:23 AM

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WolfteamHacks said:

but if i said
 jargon-filled dialogue, almost every episode 2 and ridiculous conversations in ep 3. those are things i do not like
dont remember that kind of stuff at f/z ... well not at the level of idiocy in ubw
other than that, i dont have many problems ... i like ubw, except so far f/z i think it's better written


Alright, let's see just how jargon-filled the conversations in those episodes are:
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 7:51 AM
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:26 AM
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FakePriest said:
As I said FZ was filled with jargon-filled dialogue from the very first ep.

And you mean explaining the rules of war to an outsider ridiculous?That happened in FZ as well.

And that isnt being specific.Being specific means taking one of those dialogues and explaining WHY they are bad.
i mean something like this, eg. when Ilya leaves the fight, explains that just wanted to see how powerful were his rivals or something
or ilya and rin, and explaining their powers and saying how strong they can be .... it was something ridiculous
---
fate / zero handling well the order of the scenes in this episode. i think ... honestly do not remember very well fz

 
Nov 12, 2014 9:30 AM

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simply one reason
its kiritsugu <3
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:38 AM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
As I said FZ was filled with jargon-filled dialogue from the very first ep.

And you mean explaining the rules of war to an outsider ridiculous?That happened in FZ as well.

And that isnt being specific.Being specific means taking one of those dialogues and explaining WHY they are bad.
i mean something like this, eg. when Ilya leaves the fight, explains that just wanted to see how powerful were his rivals or something
or ilya and rin, and explaining their powers and saying how strong they can be .... it was something ridiculous
---
fate / zero handling well the order of the scenes in this episode. i think ... honestly do not remember very well fz


Ok...As I said that was in FZ as well.

That aside, why is it ridiculous?
You dont explain that so far you only mention a scene or ep and call it ridiculous.

I havent seen Sora no woto, but I dont see how you can compare a Sol,music series with a fantasy setting with a huge lore behind it.
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Nov 12, 2014 10:24 AM

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I like that Zero feels more like an ensemble show as it splits focus between all the Masters and Servants.

F/SN on the on the other hand sticks with Shirou mainly who is far more "main character-like" than his dad was. If F/SN split focus like Zero did, I would be more interested in it since i'd get to see what the other participants are doing instead of just seeing what mess Shirou is getting into.

Shirou, from what i've seen so far, is just not that interesting.
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:14 AM
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FakePriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:
i mean something like this, eg. when Ilya leaves the fight, explains that just wanted to see how powerful were his rivals or something
or ilya and rin, and explaining their powers and saying how strong they can be .... it was something ridiculous
---
fate / zero handling well the order of the scenes in this episode. i think ... honestly do not remember very well fz


Ok...As I said that was in FZ as well.

That aside, why is it ridiculous?
You dont explain that so far you only mention a scene or ep and call it ridiculous.

I havent seen Sora no woto, but I dont see how you can compare a Sol,music series with a fantasy setting with a huge lore behind it.
huh?? do you want me to say the exact words of dialogue?

about sora no wpto is not a comparison, apart what i say does not have much to do with their gender...but well
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:22 AM

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No, I dont want you to type the dialogue,I want you to say why the dialogue is ridiculous.They are ridiculous cause they are ridiculous doesnt say anything.

But you did compare it.What is the point of mentioning it then?
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Nov 12, 2014 7:23 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:


i mean something like this, eg. when Ilya leaves the fight, explains that just wanted to see how powerful were his rivals or something
or ilya and rin, and explaining their powers and saying how strong they can be .... it was something ridiculous
---
fate / zero handling well the order of the scenes in this episode. i think ... honestly do not remember very well fz



So basically you didn't like their dialogue because they explain things? I'm guessing that you'd find their conversations less meaningless if they were drinking wine while walking in circles around each other like the adults.

FakePriest said:
No, I dont want you to type the dialogue,I want you to say why the dialogue is ridiculous.They are ridiculous cause they are ridiculous doesnt say anything.

But you did compare it.What is the point of mentioning it then?


This argument is getting nowhere. He just doesn't like the dialogue because its not fate zero.

Imperial_Thunder said:
I like that Zero feels more like an ensemble show as it splits focus between all the Masters and Servants.

F/SN on the on the other hand sticks with Shirou mainly who is far more "main character-like" than his dad was. If F/SN split focus like Zero did, I would be more interested in it since i'd get to see what the other participants are doing instead of just seeing what mess Shirou is getting into.

Shirou, from what i've seen so far, is just not that interesting.


Split focusing between each master and servant could have been interesting. But that only works if the characters themselves aren't one-dimensional and boring. Something that fate zero failed to do, because, once again, Gen is terrible at making interesting characters.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 7:49 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 8:30 PM

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@ WakameHead

Going to be honest, I don't understand the need in cutting down Fate/Zero in order to defend Fate/stay. How is this any different from the people who bash F/SN?
"Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job."

- Geralt of Rivia
 
Nov 12, 2014 8:32 PM

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Because Urobuchi wrote it.

Urobuchi =/= Nasu

Why is this hard to understand?

Why is The Dark Knight different from the Batman TV series?

Hur Dur different writers.
 
Nov 12, 2014 8:56 PM

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SolvitePriest said:
WakameHead said:


Nah, they don't have to agree with me. They just need to have second thoughts about their masterpiece.

...Although I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't trying to piss people off :D


I thought the dialogue in fate zero was stupid and its still better than the vast majority of other anime.

Cant have your cake and eat it too.


Yeah, there's plenty of shows out there that have worse dialogue than fate zero. There were some serious parts that I really enjoyed in fate zero:

Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 9:26 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 8:58 PM

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Rider was the coolest character in F/Z but also the worst.

Rider's pseudo intellectual ranting about what it means to be a king when the historical figure he was based on was a complete retard was pretty amazing.

Fate/Zero tended to run around in circles just to keep the story going as long as possible via repeated monologuing and "ill kill you later" moments.
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:07 PM

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So, the last time I checked this thread was 3 episodes ago, what's up?



I could say something about how F/Z does that infodumping to make it at least somewhat accessible to people who didn't read F/SN, but there isn't really any point, is there?
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:09 PM

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fst said:
So, the last time I checked this thread was 3 episodes ago, what's up?



I could say something about how F/Z does that infodumping to make it at least somewhat accessible to people who didn't read F/SN, but there isn't really any point, is there?


I didnt mind the info dumping.

Watching Alexander the Great lecture King Arthur and Gilgamesh on how to be a proper king is truly hilarious though.
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:25 PM

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SolvitePriest said:
Rider was the coolest character in F/Z but also the worst.

Rider's pseudo intellectual ranting about what it means to be a king when the historical figure he was based on was a complete retard was pretty amazing.

Fate/Zero tended to run around in circles just to keep the story going as long as possible via repeated monologuing and "ill kill you later" moments.


Yeah, Rider was an interesting character. He wasn't supposed to be in fate zero in the first place. Rider and Waver were out of place because they didn't ooze with grim derp like everything else.

Rider's ranting didn't even make sense. He was just the other extreme of being a king and that whole drinking scene was just an obvious fanfiction moment that wouldn't have actually happened if the writer actually bothered to look at the source material.

One of the most annoying parts was when Saber didn't decided to finish off Rider even after she had to use Excalibur on him. She just decided to leave..because reasons.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 9:28 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:40 PM

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Is this the part where I point out that F/Z is a fanfic of a fanfic?

Or is it the part where I mention she left because her priority was to find Irisviel?

I won't mention anything about the part where Excalibur uses silly amounts of mana, leaving you in a somewhat poor situation if you don't kill the enemy with the first strike.
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:41 PM

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WakameHead said:
SolvitePriest said:
Rider was the coolest character in F/Z but also the worst.

Rider's pseudo intellectual ranting about what it means to be a king when the historical figure he was based on was a complete retard was pretty amazing.

Fate/Zero tended to run around in circles just to keep the story going as long as possible via repeated monologuing and "ill kill you later" moments.


Yeah, Rider was an interesting character. He wasn't supposed to be in fate zero in the first place. Rider and Waver were out of place because they didn't ooze with grim derp like everything else.

Rider's ranting didn't even make sense. He was just the other extreme of being a king and that whole drinking scene was just an obvious fanfiction moment that wouldn't have actually happened if the writer actually bothered to look at the source material.

One of the most annoying parts was when Saber didn't decided to finish off Rider even after she had to use Excalibur on him. She just decided to leave..because reasons.


Do some research about Alexander the Great. It makes Rider hilarious.
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:46 PM

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fst said:
Is this the part where I point out that F/Z is a fanfic of a fanfic?

Or is it the part where I mention she left because her priority was to find Irisviel?

I won't mention anything about the part where Excalibur uses silly amounts of mana, leaving you in a somewhat poor situation if you don't kill the enemy with the first strike.


Are you implying that fate zero is a fanfic of its novel series, or of fatestaynight, which is supposed to be a fanfic as well? cause that's just dumb.

Exactly, if Saber went to the whole trouble of using Exaclibur, a noble phantasm that she can only use a certain amount of times that also uses a lot of mana, then it would have made sense for her to finish off Rider instead of leaving like a derp.

It's one thing if she caught up with Rider, figured out that Iris wasn't there, and just left. But she actually wasted her Excalibur move for nothing. Whoop tee doo.

SolvitePriest said:
WakameHead said:


Yeah, Rider was an interesting character. He wasn't supposed to be in fate zero in the first place. Rider and Waver were out of place because they didn't ooze with grim derp like everything else.

Rider's ranting didn't even make sense. He was just the other extreme of being a king and that whole drinking scene was just an obvious fanfiction moment that wouldn't have actually happened if the writer actually bothered to look at the source material.

One of the most annoying parts was when Saber didn't decided to finish off Rider even after she had to use Excalibur on him. She just decided to leave..because reasons.


Do some research about Alexander the Great. It makes Rider hilarious.


Lol, I already know that Gen did a crap job of portraying Alexander correctly.
Rider shouldn't have been Alexander the Great, he should have been Genghis Fucking Khan. Alexander the Great was a strategist, he wouldn't have charged into battle like a moron like Rider does, he also wouldn't have been a behemoth. It's true that the fact that Alexander the Great was short was a myth, but it still doesn't mean that they could turn him into a giant. Looks-wise, Alexander would have been slim and tall like Gilgamesh. Plus, Alexander died during his campaign from malaria. Can you see that behemoth dying from a fucking mosquito bite? No, I don't think so.

Basing Rider off of Genghis Khan would have been a lot better. Not only were the mongolians considered one of the best riders out there, Genghis Khan conquered a lot more than Alexander and his noble phantasm could pretty much be the same as Rider's. His personality would have matched Alexander's perfectly as well.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 9:58 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 9:53 PM

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WakameHead said:
fst said:
Is this the part where I point out that F/Z is a fanfic of a fanfic?

Or is it the part where I mention she left because her priority was to find Irisviel?

I won't mention anything about the part where Excalibur uses silly amounts of mana, leaving you in a somewhat poor situation if you don't kill the enemy with the first strike.


Are you implying that fate zero is a fanfic of its novel series, or of fatestaynight? cause that's just dumb.

Exactly, if Saber went to the whole trouble of using Exaclibur, a noble phantasm that she can only use a certain amount of times that also uses a lot of mana, then it would have made sense for her to finish off Rider instead of leaving like a derp.

It's one thing if she caught up with Rider, figured out that Iris wasn't there, and just left. But she actually wasted her Excalibur move for nothing. Whoop tee doo.

SolvitePriest said:


Do some research about Alexander the Great. It makes Rider hilarious.


Lol, I already know that Gen did a crap job of portraying Alexander correctly.
Rider shouldn't have Alexander the Great, he should have been Genghis Fucking Khan. Alexander the Great was a strategist, he wouldn't have charged into battle like a moron like Rider does, he also wouldn't have been a behemoth. It's true that the fact that Alexander the Great was a myth, but still doesn't mean that they could turn him into a giant. Look-wise, Alexander would have been slim and tall like Gilgamesh. Plus, Alexander died during his campaign from malaria. Can you see that behemoth dying from a fucking mosquito bite? No, I don't think so.

Basing Rider off of Genghis Khan would have been a lot better. Not only were the mongols considered one of the best riders out there, Genghis Khan conquered a lot more than Alexander and his noble phantasm could pretty much be the same as Rider's. His personality would have matched Alexander's perfectly as well.


Actually Alexander did do that. Hence why he foiled himself and ended up going out like a bitch.

Also having a Mongolian character in a japanese anime wouldnt go over well.
 
Nov 12, 2014 10:01 PM

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SolvitePriest said:
WakameHead said:


Are you implying that fate zero is a fanfic of its novel series, or of fatestaynight? cause that's just dumb.

Exactly, if Saber went to the whole trouble of using Exaclibur, a noble phantasm that she can only use a certain amount of times that also uses a lot of mana, then it would have made sense for her to finish off Rider instead of leaving like a derp.

It's one thing if she caught up with Rider, figured out that Iris wasn't there, and just left. But she actually wasted her Excalibur move for nothing. Whoop tee doo.



Lol, I already know that Gen did a crap job of portraying Alexander correctly.
Rider shouldn't have Alexander the Great, he should have been Genghis Fucking Khan. Alexander the Great was a strategist, he wouldn't have charged into battle like a moron like Rider does, he also wouldn't have been a behemoth. It's true that the fact that Alexander the Great was a myth, but still doesn't mean that they could turn him into a giant. Look-wise, Alexander would have been slim and tall like Gilgamesh. Plus, Alexander died during his campaign from malaria. Can you see that behemoth dying from a fucking mosquito bite? No, I don't think so.

Basing Rider off of Genghis Khan would have been a lot better. Not only were the mongols considered one of the best riders out there, Genghis Khan conquered a lot more than Alexander and his noble phantasm could pretty much be the same as Rider's. His personality would have matched Alexander's perfectly as well.


Actually Alexander did do that. Hence why he foiled himself and ended up going out like a bitch.

Also having a Mongolian character in a japanese anime wouldnt go over well.


Well, it's Mr. OP that's he's going against here, so it's rather guaranteed for most to die like a bitch in front of his highness's presence. lol

That's true. It'd be more difficult than having an african character, which is already extremely difficult, because according to the Japanese animes, people that aren't light skinned don't exist.

Also, why was ZeroDragon's post deleted? The mods on this site are real nazis. The content of most internet forums are filled with shit comments, who cares?
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 10:19 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 10:29 PM

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I was under the impression that Alexander was famously hot-headed and with a temper. He was certainly a capable commander with a strategic mind, but his conquests were won on dare and calculated risks. So many of his battles were near-run things.

If you want to talk about things that Urobuchi didn't convey in F/Z - or at least in the anime - then we should be talking about his drinking problems, his political smarts, his daddy/mommy issues, the cultural dissonance of greek/macedonian v. his adopted persian culture, and maybe his possible delusions of godhood. Alexander has a huge breadth of legend and stories surrounding him, but I wouldn't say his Iskander was 'crap' per se - and I think it was an amusing take turning him into a go-lucky sort conquerer who dreams of adventure and victory with his trusty comrades at his back. I suspect it was written so that this personality is part facade that hides is more tragic and calculating self. Perhaps he was acted so as to influence his master? That sort of thing might be more explicit in the LN's that I've not read.

So far as Fate being accurate personality-wise to these heroic figures - I don't know if we could say a single one has been particularly loyal to its source.
 
Nov 12, 2014 10:34 PM

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No, they cant have a mongolian hero because mongolians are pseudo Chinese.

Japanese people hate korea and china that much.
 
Nov 12, 2014 10:35 PM

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All I know is, next Fate game better have a Serbian servant.

Preferably Dat Face Soldier.

Imagine This being the next Berserker.

 
Nov 12, 2014 10:50 PM

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Ckan said:
I was under the impression that Alexander was famously hot-headed and with a temper. He was certainly a capable commander with a strategic mind, but his conquests were won on dare and calculated risks. So many of his battles were near-run things.

If you want to talk about things that Urobuchi didn't convey in F/Z - or at least in the anime - then we should be talking about his drinking problems, his political smarts, his daddy/mommy issues, the cultural dissonance of greek/macedonian v. his adopted persian culture, and maybe his possible delusions of godhood. Alexander has a huge breadth of legend and stories surrounding him, but I wouldn't say his Iskander was 'crap' per se - and I think it was an amusing take turning him into a go-lucky sort conquerer who dreams of adventure and victory with his trusty comrades at his back. I suspect it was written so that this personality is part facade that hides is more tragic and calculating self. Perhaps he was acted so as to influence his master? That sort of thing might be more explicit in the LN's that I've not read.

So far as Fate being accurate personality-wise to these heroic figures - I don't know if we could say a single one has been particularly loyal to its source.


This is the problem with basing servants off of historical figures, there's actually a lot more solid facts that prevents the writer from having more creativity about the servant themselves.

Perhaps Alexander the Great did have a personality that was in some ways similar to Rider's, but he still wouldn't have charged into a fight to the death between two other servants like a moron and he wouldn't have barged into Saber's base for a drinking party as if they weren't summoned back to the world to kill each other. These events completely ignore the fact that most of these masters and servants are very desperate to have their wish granted to the point that they are willing to kill others to get the holy grail.

I still think that Genghis Khan would have made a better Rider than Alexander the Great personality-wise. He was a bigger badass than Alexander the Great. But I guess the past can't be changed, and mongolian characters can never exist in japanese anime.

SolvitePriest said:
No, they cant have a mongolian hero because mongolians are pseudo Chinese.

Japanese people hate korea and china that much.


Actually, I have seen plenty of chinese characters in Japanese anime. But yeah, you're right. The Japanese do hate Koreans and the Chinese, and vice-versa.

SolvitePriest said:
All I know is, next Fate game better have a Serbian servant.

Preferably Dat Face Soldier.

Imagine This being the next Berserker.



lol, wtf? XD


Ugh...I'm pretty much done with the fate series since fate/extra. I still want to read hollow atraxia though...once the translation's done...
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 10:56 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:09 PM

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WakameHead said:
Ckan said:


This is the problem with basing servants off of historical figures, there's actually a lot more solid facts that prevents the writer from having more creativity about the servant themselves.

Perhaps Alexander the Great did have a personality that was in some ways similar to Rider's, but he still wouldn't have charged into a fight to the death between two other servants like a moron and he wouldn't have barged into Saber's base for a drinking party as if they weren't summoned back to the world to kill each other. These events completely ignore the fact that most of these masters and servants are very desperate to have their wish granted to the point that they are willing to kill others to get the holy grail.

I still think that Genghis Khan would have made a better Rider than Alexander the Great personality-wise. He was a bigger badass than Alexander the Great. But I guess the past can't be changed, and mongolian characters can never exist in japanese anime.
Definitely, there's a lot of stuff that Fate only scrapes the surface of, but on the other, the amount of stacked on legends filled with contradictory, muddled, and rarely reliable information means that there's plenty of room for interpretation - some might be less historically valid, but in the context of Fate's summoning methods - I'm under the impression that Heroic Spirits could essentially embody anything one could imagine from their legend.

As for Rider's actions, I thought they were well in keeping with the way Urobuchi chose to portray him, so it seems more you have issue with the chosen portrayal rather any part of its 'correctness' to the figure - a figure which we know essentially from secondary accounts written hundred of years past his death. "Accuracy" on the matter of Alexander's person is essentially as malleable as the Arthur Legends.

I don't see why you guys think Japan holds some lasting grudge against the Mongols.
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:17 PM

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i think rider and Alexander are fine they both were more concerned with the journey then destination as rider was always going to die on it just as he did before

maybe his stature and personality were wrong but i still see him as Alexander brought back alive again
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:23 PM

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Ckan said:
WakameHead said:


This is the problem with basing servants off of historical figures, there's actually a lot more solid facts that prevents the writer from having more creativity about the servant themselves.

Perhaps Alexander the Great did have a personality that was in some ways similar to Rider's, but he still wouldn't have charged into a fight to the death between two other servants like a moron and he wouldn't have barged into Saber's base for a drinking party as if they weren't summoned back to the world to kill each other. These events completely ignore the fact that most of these masters and servants are very desperate to have their wish granted to the point that they are willing to kill others to get the holy grail.

I still think that Genghis Khan would have made a better Rider than Alexander the Great personality-wise. He was a bigger badass than Alexander the Great. But I guess the past can't be changed, and mongolian characters can never exist in japanese anime.
Definitely, there's a lot of stuff that Fate only scrapes the surface of, but on the other, the amount of stacked on legends filled with contradictory, muddled, and rarely reliable information means that there's plenty of room for interpretation - some might be less historically valid, but in the context of Fate's summoning methods - I'm under the impression that Heroic Spirits could essentially embody anything one could imagine from their legend.

As for Rider's actions, I thought they were well in keeping with the way Urobuchi chose to portray him, so it seems more you have issue with the chosen portrayal rather any part of its 'correctness' to the figure - a figure which we know essentially from secondary accounts written hundred of years past his death. "Accuracy" on the matter of Alexander's person is essentially as malleable as the Arthur Legends.

I don't see why you guys think Japan holds some lasting grudge against the Mongols.


Yeah, I don't like how Urobuchi portrayed most of his characters and I have a huge boner for Genghis Khan. Well, his portrayal of Rider is still a lot better than loli jack the ripper or cross-dressing Charlemagne, that's for sure.

And no, Alexander the Great's place in history is much more clearer than King Arthur's. Judging by the fact that a lot of Arthurian stories involved magic already makes it blatant that most of it isn't true. There's even versions of stories about how Arthur wasn't even a king, and that he was just a saxon noble that was an asshole. Alexander the Great was an actual general that made many accomplishments in his time period.

Lol, the grudge against the Mongols is a bit of a stretch. The Japanese hate the Chinese and Koreans, but I don't think that that would make as big of an impact on anime as Sol says it does.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 12, 2014 11:28 PM
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:29 PM

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Ah yeah....
insan3priest said:
@ WakameHead

Going to be honest, I don't understand the need in cutting down Fate/Zero in order to defend Fate/stay. How is this any different from the people who bash F/SN?


Somehow, Nasu didnt make "changes" to the "Historical figures" of FSN.....
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Nov 12, 2014 11:38 PM

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WakameHead said:
Yeah, I don't like how Urobuchi portrayed most of his characters and I have a huge boner for Genghis Khan. Well, his portrayal of Rider is still a lot better than loli jack the ripper or cross-dressing Charlemagne, that's for sure.

And no, Alexander the Great's place in history is much more clearer than King Arthur's. Judging by the fact that a lot of Arthurian stories involved magic already makes it blatant that most of it isn't true. There's even stories about how King Arthur wasn't even a noble king, and that he was just a noble that was an asshole. Alexander the Great was an actual general that made many accomplishments in his time period.

Lol, the grudge against the Mongols is a bit of a stretch. The Japanese hate the Chinese and Koreans, but I don't think that that would make as big of an impact on anime as Sol says it does.
Yeah, Zero and Night are certainly a lot less 'imaginative' than some of the other Fates out there.

I think you sort of miss my point on Alexander, which is, while he's certainly historically well founded - we have literally no first hand accounts of his life, and everything is a heavily built-up repetition based on accounts we have no access to - these writers who very much had their own agendas. So while we can reasonaby believe that these were the historical actions of Alexander - his motivations, personality, and such are all very much conjecture. He could easily be totally different to how tradition portrays him.

Now, the famous image of King Arthur is definitely completely ahistorical to any real life figure that may or may not have existed. On the other-hand, the Arthur stories are also a built-up development which encompasses a huge difference in narrative style, focus, and portrayal. From the fantastical filled with dragons, beasts, and magic to the largely real and very grounded stuff like in the Vulgate Cycle's Death of Arthur.
And yet, because of all these contradictory portrayals - I'd say that both figures have plenty of room for interpretive choice - while Arthur is essentially a fictional figure, he has a backing of lore and writing that possibly outclasses Alexander. Alexander has historical fact and man embellished interpretions, histories and biographies, but the person himself is very much inaccessible to us, and the sources are very unclear on the minutiae.

Tl;dR historical fact has levels of certainty, and Alexande the person is very much a legend.
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:38 PM

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StefanHere said:
i think rider and Alexander are fine they both were more concerned with the journey then destination as rider was always going to die on it just as he did before

maybe his stature and personality were wrong but i still see him as Alexander brought back alive again
I always thought of Alexander as more of a douchebag.
Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier
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Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe
Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics.
Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it.

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Nov 12, 2014 11:41 PM

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RinPriest said:
SolvitePriest said:
All I know is, next Fate game better have a Serbian servant.

Preferably Dat Face Soldier.

Imagine This being the next Berserker.


The first thing I think when I see that video is EU4 and seeing the Ottoderps in action.


My campaign tomorrow is going to be Serbia.

mfw i lose
 
Nov 12, 2014 11:43 PM

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FakePriest said:
Ah yeah....
insan3priest said:
@ WakameHead

Going to be honest, I don't understand the need in cutting down Fate/Zero in order to defend Fate/stay. How is this any different from the people who bash F/SN?


Somehow, Nasu didnt make "changes" to the "Historical figures" of FSN.....


Nasu picked characters that have extremely murky backgrounds and I honestly don't see any of them as historical characters:



Ckan said:

I think you sort of miss my point on Alexander, which is, while he's certainly historically well founded - we have literally no first hand accounts of his life, and everything is a heavily built-up repetition based on accounts we have no access to - these writers who very much had their own agendas. So while we can reasonaby believe that these were the historical actions of Alexander - his motivations, personality, and such are all very much conjecture. He could easily be totally different to how tradition portrays him.

Now, the famous image of King Arthur is definitely completely ahistorical to any real life figure that may or may not have existed. On the other-hand, the Arthur stories are also a built-up development which encompasses a huge difference in narrative style, focus, and portrayal. From the fantastical filled with dragons, beasts, and magic to the largely real and very grounded stuff like in the Vulgate Cycle's Death of Arthur.
And yet, because of all these contradictory portrayals - I'd say that both figures have plenty of room for interpretive choice - while Arthur is essentially a fictional figure, he has a backing of lore and writing that possibly outclasses Alexander. Alexander has historical fact and man embellished interpretions, histories and biographies, but the person himself is very much inaccessible to us, and the sources are very unclear on the minutiae.

Tl;dR historical fact has levels of certainty, and Alexande the person is very much a legend.


Yeah, I know. The stories about him varies. But unlike King Arthur, we know that he actually did exist and we know that he really was a general. The story about king arthur has so many versions so there isn't even a guarantee that he exists. That's what makes him different from King Arthur. He isn't a myth.
Modified by WakameHead, Nov 13, 2014 12:10 AM
 
Nov 13, 2014 12:00 AM

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WakameHead said:
FakePriest said:
Ah yeah....


Somehow, Nasu didnt make "changes" to the "Historical figures" of FSN.....


Nasu picked characters that have extremely murky backgrounds and I honestly don't see any of them as historical characters:

[spoiler]
King Arthur - There are so many versions about king arthur, especially since finding accurate information from that time is very difficult.

Hercules- A myth.
Medusa- Another mythological story.
Medea-What do you know? Yet another myth.
Gilgamesh- A myth.
Sasaki Kojirou- A fictional character from a story.
[spoiler]

Is there anything else you would like to say?


the idea behind FS/N it that myths work.
 
Nov 13, 2014 12:14 AM

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the idea behind FS/N it that myths work.


Yeah. I'm not saying that the writers should be completely discouraged to base servants off of real historical figures, it's just that they get less leg room in the creativity department because historical figures have more solid facts. ...Although that didn't stop Fate/Apocrypha from going full retard.

Mythological characters tend to have more magic involved in their stories, so its even easier to come up with noble phantasms for them.
 
Nov 13, 2014 12:51 AM

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HalfMetalPriest said:
StefanHere said:
i think rider and Alexander are fine they both were more concerned with the journey then destination as rider was always going to die on it just as he did before

maybe his stature and personality were wrong but i still see him as Alexander brought back alive again
I always thought of Alexander as more of a douchebag.


Gilgamesh is already enough douche for one story
 
Nov 13, 2014 12:55 AM

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HalfMetalPriest said:
StefanHere said:
i think rider and Alexander are fine they both were more concerned with the journey then destination as rider was always going to die on it just as he did before

maybe his stature and personality were wrong but i still see him as Alexander brought back alive again
I always thought of Alexander as more of a douchebag.


He was a douche to Saber, but that doesn't count. That was actually the writer's voice because he hates Saber.
 
Nov 13, 2014 3:48 AM
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FakePriest said:
No, I dont want you to type the dialogue,I want you to say why the dialogue is ridiculous.They are ridiculous cause they are ridiculous doesnt say anything.

But you did compare it.What is the point of mentioning it then?

  but as i said before, all these childish dialogue and at the same time everything is very serious, reaches a point at which at least for me it was already pretty silly
about f/z ep 1, also as i said, better manage the order of scenes, put information into small parts in the middle of the story they are telling
and sora no asfas is just one example.i put it because im not against
Modified by wulfHkz, Nov 13, 2014 3:55 AM
 
Nov 13, 2014 10:19 AM

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WakameHead said:
FakePriest said:
Ah yeah....


Somehow, Nasu didnt make "changes" to the "Historical figures" of FSN.....


Nasu picked characters that have extremely murky backgrounds and I honestly don't see any of them as historical characters:



Ckan said:

I think you sort of miss my point on Alexander, which is, while he's certainly historically well founded - we have literally no first hand accounts of his life, and everything is a heavily built-up repetition based on accounts we have no access to - these writers who very much had their own agendas. So while we can reasonaby believe that these were the historical actions of Alexander - his motivations, personality, and such are all very much conjecture. He could easily be totally different to how tradition portrays him.

Now, the famous image of King Arthur is definitely completely ahistorical to any real life figure that may or may not have existed. On the other-hand, the Arthur stories are also a built-up development which encompasses a huge difference in narrative style, focus, and portrayal. From the fantastical filled with dragons, beasts, and magic to the largely real and very grounded stuff like in the Vulgate Cycle's Death of Arthur.
And yet, because of all these contradictory portrayals - I'd say that both figures have plenty of room for interpretive choice - while Arthur is essentially a fictional figure, he has a backing of lore and writing that possibly outclasses Alexander. Alexander has historical fact and man embellished interpretions, histories and biographies, but the person himself is very much inaccessible to us, and the sources are very unclear on the minutiae.

Tl;dR historical fact has levels of certainty, and Alexande the person is very much a legend.


Yeah, I know. The stories about him varies. But unlike King Arthur, we know that he actually did exist and we know that he really was a general. The story about king arthur has so many versions so there isn't even a guarantee that he exists. That's what makes him different from King Arthur. He isn't a myth.

It has nothing to do with being real or not hence the quotation marks I use on Historical.

Sasaki Koujirou is as fictional as Alexander.He existed but we dont have first hand accounts on him.

And even Myths have a basis.

Myth or not, Nasu and Gen did the same thing.

And you still dont get the point Ckan tries to make.
WakameHead said:
HalfMetalPriest said:
I always thought of Alexander as more of a douchebag.


He was a douche to Saber, but that doesn't count. That was actually the writer's voice because he hates Saber.
He was a douche to everyone, not just Saber.

You really try TOO hard to trash Gen and FZ.

WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
No, I dont want you to type the dialogue,I want you to say why the dialogue is ridiculous.They are ridiculous cause they are ridiculous doesnt say anything.

But you did compare it.What is the point of mentioning it then?

  but as i said before, all these childish dialogue and at the same time everything is very serious, reaches a point at which at least for me it was already pretty silly
about f/z ep 1, also as i said, better manage the order of scenes, put information into small parts in the middle of the story they are telling
and sora no asfas is just one example.i put it because im not against

So will you explain yourself or not?

Because you still didnt say anything.Give a fucking example.Tell me why a specific dialogue is childish,ridiculous or whatever.

If you can't then stop talking shit as if you know what you are talking about.
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Nov 13, 2014 1:18 PM
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FakePriest said:
WakameHead said:


Nasu picked characters that have extremely murky backgrounds and I honestly don't see any of them as historical characters:





Yeah, I know. The stories about him varies. But unlike King Arthur, we know that he actually did exist and we know that he really was a general. The story about king arthur has so many versions so there isn't even a guarantee that he exists. That's what makes him different from King Arthur. He isn't a myth.

It has nothing to do with being real or not hence the quotation marks I use on Historical.

Sasaki Koujirou is as fictional as Alexander.He existed but we dont have first hand accounts on him.

And even Myths have a basis.

Myth or not, Nasu and Gen did the same thing.

And you still dont get the point Ckan tries to make.
WakameHead said:


He was a douche to Saber, but that doesn't count. That was actually the writer's voice because he hates Saber.
He was a douche to everyone, not just Saber.

You really try TOO hard to trash Gen and FZ.

WolfteamHacks said:

  but as i said before, all these childish dialogue and at the same time everything is very serious, reaches a point at which at least for me it was already pretty silly
about f/z ep 1, also as i said, better manage the order of scenes, put information into small parts in the middle of the story they are telling
and sora no asfas is just one example.i put it because im not against

So will you explain yourself or not?

Because you still didnt say anything.Give a fucking example.Tell me why a specific dialogue is childish,ridiculous or whatever.

If you can't then stop talking shit as if you know what you are talking about.

hahah but im not trying to make a criticism
hmmm here we go again, i said before, two situations: talks, praise and say it is more powerful than the enemy and his attacks are better and blah blah ... it looked like the fairy tail script
or end of fight between berserk and saber, ilya said i wanted to see how strong was the servant or something ... that was the reason for all the fight
do not like
 
Nov 13, 2014 1:23 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:

It has nothing to do with being real or not hence the quotation marks I use on Historical.

Sasaki Koujirou is as fictional as Alexander.He existed but we dont have first hand accounts on him.

And even Myths have a basis.

Myth or not, Nasu and Gen did the same thing.

And you still dont get the point Ckan tries to make.
He was a douche to everyone, not just Saber.

You really try TOO hard to trash Gen and FZ.


So will you explain yourself or not?

Because you still didnt say anything.Give a fucking example.Tell me why a specific dialogue is childish,ridiculous or whatever.

If you can't then stop talking shit as if you know what you are talking about.

hahah but im not trying to make a criticism
hmmm here we go again, i said before, two situations: talks, praise and say it is more powerful than the enemy and his attacks are better and blah blah ... it looked like the fairy tail script
or end of fight between berserk and saber, ilya said i wanted to see how strong was the servant or something ... that was the reason for all the fight
do not like
It is either you're dense or just trolling.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN F/Z.
 
Nov 13, 2014 1:25 PM

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BotatoPriest said:
It is either you're dense or just trolling.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN F/Z.


QFT. Seriously, it's dumb to criticize FSN for the same things FZ did and then praise FZ. Selective perception I guess.
 
Nov 13, 2014 1:27 PM

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Thats not bad writing.
Thats in FZ as well.
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Nov 13, 2014 2:17 PM
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BotatoPriest said:
WolfteamHacks said:

hahah but im not trying to make a criticism
hmmm here we go again, i said before, two situations: talks, praise and say it is more powerful than the enemy and his attacks are better and blah blah ... it looked like the fairy tail script
or end of fight between berserk and saber, ilya said i wanted to see how strong was the servant or something ... that was the reason for all the fight
do not like
It is either you're dense or just trolling.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN F/Z.
yeah, well
the problem is that i do not remember much about fate zero, remember that many of his dialogues were ideological and some were used to contrast the ideas of the protagonist, eg: the scene saber vs lancer (ep 16), but i honestly can not remember more about the dialogue in that series. f/z not i came to dislike as much as it does sometimes ubw ...in that aspect

but hey, i understand what you say
Modified by wulfHkz, Nov 13, 2014 2:26 PM
 
Nov 13, 2014 2:26 PM

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WolfteamHacks said:
could be
the problem is that i do not remember much about fate zero, remember that many of his dialogues were ideological and some were used to contrast the ideas of the protagonist, eg: the scene saber vs lancer (ep 16), but i honestly can not remember more about the dialogue in that series. f/z not i came to dislike as much as it does sometimes ubw ...in that aspect

but hey, i understand what you say
> Does not remember F/Z.
> Claims it has better dialogue.

Well, fair enough I guess, I remember F/Z and read F/SN and I assure you, the dialogue is the same in both.
 
Nov 13, 2014 2:47 PM

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Trim your goddamn quote towers people.

WakameHead said:

Are you implying that fate zero is a fanfic of its novel series, or of fatestaynight, which is supposed to be a fanfic as well? cause that's just dumb.


It's fiction written by a fan, obviously intended to be read by other fans. I see nothing wrong with calling it a fanfic of F/SN, which is itself doing the same with various old myths.

WakameHead said:
Exactly, if Saber went to the whole trouble of using Exaclibur, a noble phantasm that she can only use a certain amount of times that also uses a lot of mana, then it would have made sense for her to finish off Rider instead of leaving like a derp.

It's one thing if she caught up with Rider, figured out that Iris wasn't there, and just left. But she actually wasted her Excalibur move for nothing. Whoop tee doo.


Destroying a noble phantasm doesn't mean much to you, does it?

BotatoPriest said:
]It is either you're dense or just trolling.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN F/Z.


You say it like it isn't already abundantly obvious that he's just trolling.
 
Nov 13, 2014 3:39 PM

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#justsecondarythings
 
Nov 14, 2014 3:02 AM

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fst said:


BotatoPriest said:
]It is either you're dense or just trolling.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN F/Z.


You say it like it isn't already abundantly obvious that he's just trolling.
Some people are just stupid you know?When he argues about something he cant remember and cant explain after pages what exactly is bad about the dialogues,I lean more towards him being stupid than I do for troll.
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Nov 14, 2014 4:37 AM
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FakePriest said:
fst said:




You say it like it isn't already abundantly obvious that he's just trolling.
Some people are just stupid you know?When he argues about something he cant remember and cant explain after pages what exactly is bad about the dialogues,I lean more towards him being stupid than I do for troll.
huuh??
no.
fate zero still seems better written
 
Nov 14, 2014 4:51 AM

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WolfteamHacks said:
FakePriest said:
Some people are just stupid you know?When he argues about something he cant remember and cant explain after pages what exactly is bad about the dialogues,I lean more towards him being stupid than I do for troll.
huuh??
no.
fate zero still seems better written
If you cant explain why AFTER 4 PAGES then your opinion doesnt worth shit.
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