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Poll: Umineko no Naku Koro ni Episode 18 Discussion


Oct 29, 2009 12:40 PM

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Gaaah, it was al Virg's plan?!
Dammit, I was starting to love her because she seemed so... so... not evil. D:

And did Beato really say ''Witches don't excist'' when Battler covered his ears? Cause if she really said that, then they really would've disappeared, right?

Is Ange the next Beatrice? Never expected that one.
Modified by Samu-tan, Oct 29, 2009 12:50 PM
 
Oct 29, 2009 12:43 PM

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R4yn0r said:
IT'S OVER 9000!!!! was the first thing I remembered after seeing the scene in which they attacked battler, made me lol very hard xD


Me too xD

I was enjoying this show so much but this complete reverse of Beato's personality ruined, it didn't make any sense
 
Oct 29, 2009 12:49 PM

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hirahira said:
Jumperboy333 said:


And...



Okay. Thanks. ^^
 
Oct 29, 2009 12:58 PM
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The name say it all. The cake is a lie.

I guess many VN probably are waiting for this moment of the whole series XD.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:02 PM

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Why does gg change "see you again" to "au revoir" They are ruining it :<

And I'm sure a lot of people are going to be complaining about how things don't make sense again.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:07 PM
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when they recreated hideyoshi's death the music kinda reminded me of touhou.
awesome episode though
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:11 PM

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hirahira said:
Why does gg change "see you again" to "au revoir" They are ruining it :<

And I'm sure a lot of people are going to be complaining about how things don't make sense again.


They changed Battler's "see you again" to that as well in episode 12.

They do it to keep it foreign sounding.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:11 PM

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Soulstrider said:

I was enjoying this show so much but this complete reverse of Beato's personality ruined, it didn't make any sense



This is why someone shouldn't post a comment before finishing the episode, I regained some of my love for umineko again ALTHOUGH it still doesn't make sense why Battler became so friendly with Beatrice
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:14 PM
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Soulstrider said:

This is why someone shouldn't post a comment before finishing the episode, I regained some of my love for umineko again ALTHOUGH it still doesn't make sense why Battler became so friendly with Beatrice


Battler's heart is too soft. But well, I would become soft too if I see a girl acting like that.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:16 PM

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Soulstrider said:
Soulstrider said:

I was enjoying this show so much but this complete reverse of Beato's personality ruined, it didn't make any sense



This is why someone shouldn't post a comment before finishing the episode, I regained some of my love for umineko again ALTHOUGH it still doesn't make sense why Battler became so friendly with Beatrice


I don't see how it doesn't. Beato was acting good. Battler believed that she had a change of heart and turned good. She was even sacrificing herself to help others.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:17 PM

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Really great episode, even though it was a little rushed.

And awww, Bern in the end ♥

HakoTan said:
"You start by acting "tsun" and then switch over to "dere" was priceless. I knew they would keep that!
Ange's voice is quite awesome, and i loved her design. See you in next episode, then.

I agree ~ n______n
Modified by Sonja, Oct 29, 2009 1:30 PM


 
Oct 29, 2009 1:22 PM

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MarthX said:


I don't see how it doesn't. Beato was acting good. Battler believed that she had a change of heart and turned good. She was even sacrificing herself to help others.


She murdered his family twice in cold blood, even if he started to believe that she could change I doubt it would reach the point of crying for her.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:26 PM

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I think you're missing something.

Beatrice is trying to prove that she's the culprit, that the murders were only possible by witches and magic.

Battler is the one trying to prove that the murders weren't done by witches and magic.

If Battler is right and the murders weren't done by witches and magic then Beatrice isn't the culprit. No more than 18 people exist on Rokkenjima. We've seen all 18. If you deny that the murders were done by magic then you also have to deny that Beatrice is the culprit.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:26 PM

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New low. At the very least they gave an out for Beatrice being so out of character. I feel like this arc didn't do more than let us know there are two killers and introduce Ange way too late. Battler's as dumb as ever, and so much so that I just couldn't understand anything that was going on in his hollow head.

Beyond that, I expected a time skip in the second season, so it's very surprising that it's happened so early to me.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:30 PM

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noteDhero, if you're so smart then you figure out the last red truth mystery.

Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice.
By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
There are no more than 18 people on this island
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.
No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious!
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder
Her eyes were completely blocked.
It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that
Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved
The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
This also applies to Battler and Eva
neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
The red only tells the truth
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Right before his eyes!


You can't blame Battler for being dumb if you can't figure it out yourself.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:38 PM

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Trusting your enemy is dumb. Crying over them is dumber.
As I've said before there's no point in "figuring it out" when there's one twist after another. Everything is either "too obvious" or "too up in the air" to say anything. That means everything is possible. As a viewer there is no contending with that.

And when Battler talks about there being no witches and then mourning that Beatrice would deny her existence, how am I supposed to look at him in any way besides a moron?
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:42 PM

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Uh.. there's no twist for that red mystery. You have all the information you need to solve it. It can be solved now and I know the answer so I can confirm if you're right.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:46 PM

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noteDhero said:


And when Battler talks about there being no witches and then mourning that Beatrice would deny her existence, how am I supposed to look at him in any way besides a moron?


Exactly, I want to love this show I really do, I find it enjoyable but then stupid things like this happen or like how Ange reacted when she saw the witch and accepted everything she was told without doubting
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:50 PM

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Soulstrider said:
Exactly, I want to love this show I really do, I find it enjoyable but then stupid things like this happen or like how Ange reacted when she saw the witch and accepted everything she was told without doubting


You'll learn more about Ange later on so your question about how can she believe immediately will be answered fairly soon.

And really both of you are looking at this with the angle that Battler doesn't have any emotions. Even if Battler wants to deny witches he wants to solve the mystery on his own. Battler saw how hard Beato was trying to reform and slowly began to accept her as a "true witch"
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:53 PM

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All this "I don't understand why X acts this way" is dumb. Not all things are logical. People don't always make the best decisions in life. Emotions get the better of you. You say it's unrealistic, but I argue that it's more realistic. Humans aren't perfect. For a character to always make the best decisions and for everything they do to make perfect sense then that's unrealistic.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:53 PM

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Decent episode, I guess.
I hope the Ange backstory doesn't take long.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:54 PM

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I nominate for Beatrice for Best Actress of the Year award.

For the hell of it:


Well, we finally see Ange. I can't wait for next episode. We're gonna see even more of her.

So yeah, Battle had it coming. There's no way a witch slap would suddenly make Beatrice all dere dere. Well, we're nearing the end. Only a few more weeks left until the anime enters my "Complete" list section.
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:54 PM
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Soulstrider said:
or like how Ange reacted when she saw the witch and accepted everything she was told without doubting

This is a very relevant point, with a perfect logical explanation.
There are two main reasons, the first one will be introduced since the very beginning of the next arc.



The second is quite more complex and way too spoilerish about the final twist of arc 4
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:55 PM

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Dark_Requiem said:
Soulstrider said:
Exactly, I want to love this show I really do, I find it enjoyable but then stupid things like this happen or like how Ange reacted when she saw the witch and accepted everything she was told without doubting


You'll learn more about Ange later on so your question about how can she believe immediately will be answered fairly soon.

And really both of you are looking at this with the angle that Battler doesn't have any emotions. Even if Battler wants to deny witches he wants to solve the mystery on his own. Battler saw how hard Beato was trying to reform and slowly began to accept her as a "true witch"


Oh, It is exactly knowing he has emotions I think he is dumb, he saw all his family being murdered twice by a sociopath Beatrice and so shortly after the murder he is already ready to forgive her and be her friend?
 
Oct 29, 2009 1:58 PM
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Now that Ange has appeared, this might even be enjoyable.

open.staff.applications  
guidelines.faq  
report.abuse
  
Thx Kina.
  
[H+] ³  

 
Oct 29, 2009 1:58 PM

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Soulstrider said:
Dark_Requiem said:
Soulstrider said:
Exactly, I want to love this show I really do, I find it enjoyable but then stupid things like this happen or like how Ange reacted when she saw the witch and accepted everything she was told without doubting


You'll learn more about Ange later on so your question about how can she believe immediately will be answered fairly soon.

And really both of you are looking at this with the angle that Battler doesn't have any emotions. Even if Battler wants to deny witches he wants to solve the mystery on his own. Battler saw how hard Beato was trying to reform and slowly began to accept her as a "true witch"


Oh, It is exactly knowing he has emotions I think he is dumb, he saw all his family being murdered twice by a sociopath Beatrice and so shortly after the murder he is already ready to forgive her and be her friend?


If Battler is right and the murders weren't done by witches and magic then Beatrice isn't the culprit. No more than 18 people exist on Rokkenjima. We've seen all 18. If you deny that the murders were done by magic then you also have to deny that Beatrice is the culprit.
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:02 PM

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Oh god Ange, I came.

That is all.
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:05 PM

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MarthX said:
All this "I don't understand why X acts this way" is dumb. Not all things are logical. People don't always make the best decisions in life. Emotions get the better of you. You say it's unrealistic, but I argue that it's more realistic. Humans aren't perfect. For a character to always make the best decisions and for everything they do to make perfect sense then that's unrealistic.


You're right, not all things are logical, but if we're talking about a mystery, then there has to be logic. Regarding Battler, that seems to be the excuse all the time: His emotions get the best him. Ok, how do we move on from there? It's been 18 episodes and he hasn't developed.

Also, since he seemed fine with implicating Eva now that he got desperate, I don't want to see him falling on the excuse of, "I can't think of x person that way."

As for this game board, 15 people are dead and neither Jessica, Battler, nor Eva killed Nanjo. Off the top of my head the only thing I can think of is that someone thought to be dead, wasn't completely and killed Nanjo. It doesn't matter to me since I'm not invested in the mystery, but how the author navigates his way out of this mess.
Modified by noteDhero, Oct 29, 2009 2:47 PM
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:09 PM

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Here's the Battler vs. Eva-Beatrice scene and the troll scene from the VN:
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:17 PM
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Zen Zen dame da!

Episode was incredibly rushed. And stuff.

Btw, I'm 100% sure that Eva-Beatrice did say something like what's with the incredibly absurd logic being used to solve this mystery. I don't feel like going on youtube or opening up the vn to check it out myself.

One thing I really didn't like about the anime is Serious/Determined Battler. They never stated that when he's like that, absolutely nothing magical can affect him. Why is why the Siesta's weapons, which is pretty much a Ignore-Defence, do direct damage, base power is over 9000 move, not working was originally surprising.

Oh for the dear god, Episode 4. I'm not sure if I want to watch it or not... Since they don't do certain scenes correctly, it'll be a huge wreck and everything will be laughable. More so than before.
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:31 PM

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z2000 said:
Oh for the dear god, Episode 4. I'm not sure if I want to watch it or not... Since they don't do certain scenes correctly, it'll be a huge wreck and everything will be laughable. More so than before.
Ange's mere presence will fix everything wrong with the anime.

...or I'll just be too busy drooling over her to care. :V

They've got eight episodes to work with, approximately 160 minutes. It took me about 10 hours of nonstop reading to finish episode 4.

Good luck DEEN, don't fuck it up too much.
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:44 PM

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Bricks were shat during this episode. Lots of them.
 
Oct 29, 2009 2:55 PM

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Uuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
Tsundere Beato isn't a lie. It can't be.

Somebody say it in red.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:05 PM
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HawthorneKitty said:
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
Tsundere Beato isn't a lie. It can't be.

Somebody say it in red.

I won't say it in red but I'll say it in green. >:)
Tsundere Beato isn't a lie. It can't be.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:07 PM
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noteDhero said:
As for this game board, 15 people are dead and neither Jessica, Battler, nor Eva killed Nanjo. Off the top of my head the only thing I can think of is that someone thought to be dead, wasn't completely and killed Nanjo. It doesn't matter to me since I'm not invested in the mystery, but how the author navigates his way out of this mess.


The red text denies the possibility of anyone else (out of the 15 mentioned) being not dead. And at no point has Ryukishi07 backed himself into an unescapeable corner with regards to the the mysteries of the murders. Even with the Web of Red there are numerous outs. Notice how one thing was most definitely not confirmed in that huge mass of red text laid out by EVA Beatrice.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:12 PM
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R07 has confirmed that umineko is solvable after the first four question arcs, if that helps.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:12 PM
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MarthX said:

Instead of only listing what was omitted, here's all Eva-Beatrice's red truth at the end.


Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice.
By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
There are no more than 18 people on this island
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.
No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious!
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder
Her eyes were completely blocked.
It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that
Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved
The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
This also applies to Battler and Eva
neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
The red only tells the truth
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Right before his eyes!


I'll give you 2 choices.
Who ever translated the above has made numerous big errors
Red does not = truth

Either way, I haven't seen storytelling this bad in a long time
Modified by Metty, Oct 29, 2009 3:16 PM
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:14 PM

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The Beato going good thing was getting ridiculous. I'm glad that it was all a trick.
Also, It looks like Ange will be a great character.This episode was definitely a good surprise.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:18 PM
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Metroid_Ex said:
MarthX said:

Instead of only listing what was omitted, here's all Eva-Beatrice's red truth at the end.


Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice.
By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
There are no more than 18 people on this island
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.
No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious!
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder
Her eyes were completely blocked.
It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that
Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved
The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
This also applies to Battler and Eva
neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
The red only tells the truth
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Right before his eyes!


I'll give you 2 choices.
Who ever translated the above has made numerous big errors
>It's like you really know japanese.
Red does not = truth
The red was a way for the author to confirm the truth to readers.

Either way, I haven't seen storytelling this bad in a long time


Modified by Denwa, Oct 29, 2009 3:28 PM
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:19 PM

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moldy_tomato said:
HawthorneKitty said:
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
Tsundere Beato isn't a lie. It can't be.

Somebody say it in red.

I won't say it in red but I'll say it in green. >:)
Tsundere Beato isn't a lie. It can't be.
Noooooooo, I'm ruined. =[
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:22 PM
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Metroid_Ex said:

Red does not = truth


People still don't trust the red truth at this point in time? Not trusting it is like covering your ears and thinking up whatever with regards to solving the mystery, regardless of if it contradicts anything.

Trust us, accept the red text for what it is: The truth.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:26 PM
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PlatinumHawke said:
Metroid_Ex said:

Red does not = truth


People still don't trust the red truth at this point in time?
go back and reread the bold text. You have the same 2 choices. pic 1
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:28 PM
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PlatinumHawke said:
Metroid_Ex said:

Red does not = truth


People still don't trust the red truth at this point in time? Not trusting it is like covering your ears and thinking up whatever with regards to solving the mystery, regardless of if it contradicts anything.

Trust us, accept the red text for what it is: The truth.


Sorry, try again
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:29 PM
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PlatinumHawke said:
noteDhero said:
As for this game board, 15 people are dead and neither Jessica, Battler, nor Eva killed Nanjo. Off the top of my head the only thing I can think of is that someone thought to be dead, wasn't completely and killed Nanjo. It doesn't matter to me since I'm not invested in the mystery, but how the author navigates his way out of this mess.


The red text denies the possibility of anyone else (out of the 15 mentioned) being not dead. And at no point has Ryukishi07 backed himself into an unescapeable corner with regards to the the mysteries of the murders. Even with the Web of Red there are numerous outs. Notice how one thing was most definitely not confirmed in that huge mass of red text laid out by EVA Beatrice.


What was not confirmed?
Put it in spoiler tags if it is a spoiler
and mention if it is a EP 4 spoiler
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:31 PM

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Ignoring the red truth is like ignoring the rules of a game. You can't play if you don't follow the rules.

The rule is anything said in red is the truth. Your explanations cannot contradict the red.

If the red says There's only one key to X then there's only one. You can't make arguments about there being a copy. Normally it would be impossible to prove that a copy doesn't exist because it's a devil's proof but the red destroys that possibility.
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:32 PM
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Metroid_Ex said:
Sorry, try again


Alright. Spoilers for a point further ahead than the anime. Don't click or quote me.



kaena: It's not said anywhere beyond where we are now, but:

 
Oct 29, 2009 3:32 PM
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so eva killed battler in the end?
but due to the red, someone else mustve been working with her.
and why did meta-battler appear in the Tea Party after Piece Battler was killed?
im not sure what happened to the meta-battler and piece battler right after beatrice talked while battler was covering his ears
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:33 PM
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MarthX said:
Ignoring the red truth is like ignoring the rules of a game. You can't play if you don't follow the rules.

The rule is anything said in red is the truth. Your explanations cannot contradict the red.

Fail, one must ignore part of the red text for the red text to hold any meaning. Therefor the red text is not complete truth. try again
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:35 PM
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Metroid_Ex said:
Fail, one must ignore part of the red text for the red text to hold any meaning. Therefor the red text is not complete truth. try again


The red text twists the truth to be of advantage to the witch. Why else would she use it in the first place? It doesn't tell anything other than the truth, but not the whole truth. And which part of the red text must you ignore are you talking about?
Modified by PlatinumHawke, Oct 29, 2009 3:40 PM
 
Oct 29, 2009 3:37 PM

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The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!


EVAtrice, you moron, your side is supposed to be the "witches did it" side! x____X

My crazy theory about it is
 
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