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Poll: Umineko no Naku Koro ni Episode 18 Discussion


Oct 30, 2009 1:21 PM
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OmegaDenmad said:
moldy_tomato said:
OmegaDenmad said:
That's definitely not true... Higurashi had many, many scenes that were hallucinations of the POV character, and as such, we could qualify them as "lies".
The hallucinations in Higurashi are quite different from the magic scenes in Umineko.


This is part where you tell me how. :p

The immediate similarity I see is that, while they didn't happen exactly as they were shown to us, both kinds still had clues about the overall mystery in them.

How?
The hallucinations were shown from Keiichi's point of view.
The magic...well... shows the fantasy side's explanation for the murders, and, at least in the EP1, there was no one to witness the magic. (if none of that really happened)
 
Oct 30, 2009 1:41 PM

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aaa dame daa zenzen dame daa xD man it threw me totally off. going tsun and then all dere lol. great stuff.


 
Oct 30, 2009 2:05 PM

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noteDhero said:



When Bernkastel was first introduced in this show, I said something about how if Battler and the family stands any chance to be alive, then it would be because of her interjection in the game, given her power and success in Higurashi. I also stated how I felt like the idea of all of the games was merely a big diversion of the bet between Bernkastel and Beatrice, which seemed to be the most important revelation at the time. I still believe that's somewhat true because she brings Ange in to begin turning the tables. I wish that this arc would have done little flashes forward to Ange, getting to know her, so that the shock and drama of her reveal would have been more weighty in then end.

At this point, I hope that Umineko is going the path of Higurashi in that the focus drifts from Battler (Kei'ichi) to Ange (Rika). Because Ange seems to possess such a strong will and less faith in people, I think those will be strong assets in playing against Beatrice. I hope she'll succeed where Battler fails, ie. getting so caught up in wanting to trust everyone around him and not keeping his head in the game.


I do think DEEN screwed themselves by mentioning Ange last week. Either they should have mentioned at the very beginning just as the VN did, or they shouldn't have mentioned her at all. But I don't think it's a make or break thing.

If you check out the preview for next week's episode, you'll see we are going to learn all about Ange very soon. Actually, some people say the fourth game is TOO much about Ange, but she is my favorite character, so I disagree.
 
Oct 30, 2009 2:35 PM
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well i knew something was definetly wrong with beato but i didn't expect her teacher to be in it too... and i was already waiting for battlers sister to appear :) when i saw her red hair i already knew that she has somekind of conection with Battler :) cant wait for more
 
Oct 30, 2009 2:47 PM

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PsychFreak said:

Ah yes, here we are:









That is hilarious.
 
Oct 30, 2009 2:57 PM

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I hate this show.
 
Oct 30, 2009 3:53 PM

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hirahira said:
mangastar said:
Darklight0303 said:
mangastar said:
T.T Oh well, guess the BeatricexBattler was impossible after all.

Well I wouldn't say that *snickers*


Well, it's just that while I do think Beatrice has some feeling for Battler, I think whatever Battler may have felt before is going to be impossible to restore, therefor unless Beatrice does some serious fixing herself up and not just going all moe again, that is unless the writer intends to seriously make Battler appear to be a real sucker, BeatricexBattler in my mind is impossible now.

Have you watched the preview for the next episode yet?

No, I'd rather wait till next week's sub. Guess that means the preview hints at the relationship still existing? (rhetorical question) ^^ Well, I'd be quite happy if they do accomplish making it BeatricexBattler without ruining Battler. Can't wait to see if that's the case next week that much more now.
Eleven years on MAL!
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Oct 30, 2009 4:23 PM

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moldy_tomato said:

The hallucinations were shown from Keiichi's point of view.


The magic battles are shown from Beatrices's point of view.

moldy_tomato said:
The magic...well... shows the fantasy side's explanation for the murders, and, at least in the EP1, there was no one to witness the magic. (if none of that really happened)


As far as I recall, we were left without even the slightest explanation in the first Question Arc of Higurashi... And only the "hallucination" side to it.

Full preview for 19: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJKsZmbup3U&fmt=18 (the previous one posted had the first seconds clipped XD)
 
Oct 30, 2009 5:52 PM

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Anime-onry watcher here.

MOETRICE WAS A LIE?! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- What a troll :(

Ange's entrance was awesome, I like her personality already.

And what BGM song was playing during the part where Beato was getting shanked by the Siestas Sisters?
 
Oct 30, 2009 6:00 PM

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Syl said:
MOETRICE WAS A LIE?! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- What a troll :(

Half a lie, imo.
Syl said:
Anime-onry watcher here.


Don't click the spoiler of you don't want to get your hopes up for the future.
It is kind of spoiler.

Really, don't click this spoiler.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.
 
Oct 30, 2009 6:03 PM

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Syl said:
Anime-onry watcher here.

MOETRICE WAS A LIE?! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- What a troll :(

Ange's entrance was awesome, I like her personality already.

And what BGM song was playing during the part where Beato was getting shanked by the Siestas Sisters?


Do you mean this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vM0eG3R0Tg

Akaikutsu Nise/ Fake Red Shoes
 
Oct 30, 2009 6:07 PM

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hirahira said:
Do you mean this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vM0eG3R0Tg

Akaikutsu Nise/ Fake Red Shoes


Yep, thanks ;3

And yeah from reading up on this thread a bit I get the idea that I might not be a Bern fan after the next episode arc.
 
Oct 30, 2009 6:10 PM

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I love the fact that Moetrice was a lie x3
My, she was getting annoying going all moe all of a sudden..
And Ange seems really interesting, next arc should be nice.


Gotta love this xD

And Eva-Beatrice is gone, right? She only existed in that game board. Ange is 'special' because Bern made her enter the game, no?
 
Oct 30, 2009 6:29 PM
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Short Jessica/Kanon scene is really short. ;__;

Troll!Beato and Virgillia were great (Though it'd have been even better if they had kept Virgillia's eyes closed all along, to reveal her totally off-the-charts freaky face at the end, like in the VN but w/e).

...Damn. The past twelve years haven't been good to Eva, have they?

This scene :o . I never thought I'd see the day when Lia's hat has unhooked its claws from her head.
 
Oct 30, 2009 6:31 PM

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Finally I was able to watch it and... ZOMG! Finally Ange is there!!! <33333

Too bad the cut of many red text and the part when
wasn't than suppressive than in the VN ):

Besides that nice ep, wondering how the next portrait is going to be xD

ps:l
 
Oct 30, 2009 10:13 PM

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I wanted more Jessica/Kanon too.

But there was the bad-ass Ange entrance. Oh yeah!

and... no RED WEB. If there was red web, oh well.

 
Oct 30, 2009 10:15 PM

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PsychFreak said:
DeathfireD said:
Like I've mentioned before, I have doubts about the red writing. Beato has contradicted her self before.


Care to give me an example?

DeathfireD said:
So it was Eva? If she was the winner then that means the rest of them should be alive doesn't it? It is a reward at the end of the witches epitaph right?


It's supposed to be, but that doesn't mean murders still won't happen, many others have already stated that there could be other culprits who don't care about such things.

DeathfireD said:
Also you say she has an incurable illness. Could this be something the rest of the family had as well ;)?


Could be, we don't know for sure.


Read my past posts in past threads. It's not like I save everything to a word document just waiting to be copied and pasted for such a discussion as this lol. I don't remember the details but I did post them a few times in past posts.

So your saying even if Eva won they could still all kill each other after being "revived" even knowing that the winner brought them back and is now the new family head? Seems kind of stupid but I could see this happening I guess.

One other thing I noticed. Assuming the red is real (since I'm playing on both sides here) "There are no more than 18 people on this island" can mean there are no more then 18 people presently on the island. She does not specify how many where involved in the "game" and as you can see with each arc new characters are showing up as being on the island but not all at the same time. Her words are indeed twisting around the truth. Battler needs to ask better questions that she cant get around and when she refuses to answer, press her with another question until she's cornered.

BTW. How many islands are near the island they're on? I suspect there's at least 1.

Last thing, someone please prove to me that the red text is really 100% pure truth. Do it without saying that it's the rule of that realm and also do it without saying "because Beato or some other person said it was a rule that cant be broken". Like Magic, people think it's real because they don't understand how it works or why it shows up. Like Eva, Battler could be suffering from an illness which makes him think he's playing a game against a witch when he could actually be in a hospital in a comma.
 
Oct 30, 2009 10:55 PM
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DeathfireD said:
So your saying even if Eva won they could still all kill each other after being "revived" even knowing that the winner brought them back and is now the new family head? Seems kind of stupid but I could see this happening I guess.


They never were revived, they only revive when a new game board is presented, but it is clear that this isn't Eva's gameboard but rather Beatrice', Eva and also in this case Eva-Beatrice was just a pawn on the chessboard for her. And you can assume that after Eva won and took the family headship, she went on a killing spree to hide those secrets, this could also apply to any other culprit who may be involved.


DeathfireD said:
One other thing I noticed. Assuming the red is real (since I'm playing on both sides here) "There are no more than 18 people on this island" can mean there are no more then 18 people presently on the island. She does not specify how many where involved in the "game" and as you can see with each arc new characters are showing up as being on the island but not all at the same time. Her words are indeed twisting around the truth. Battler needs to ask better questions that she cant get around and when she refuses to answer, press her with another question until she's cornered.


"No more than 18 people on the island" refers to the same 18 people you see at the start of each game, it's always the same 18 people. The new people you see appearing on the island does not count as one of the 18 because they are magical beings. It's like, if you're counting them as part of the people on the island, it's the same thing as saying magic exist.


DeathfireD said:
BTW. How many islands are near the island they're on? I suspect there's at least 1.


It doesn't matter, that island is completely sealed off from the outside world.


DeathfireD said:
Last thing, someone please prove to me that the red text is really 100% pure truth. Do it without saying that it's the rule of that realm and also do it without saying "because Beato or some other person said it was a rule that cant be broken". Like Magic, people think it's real because they don't understand how it works or why it shows up. Like Eva, Battler could be suffering from an illness which makes him think he's playing a game against a witch when he could actually be in a hospital in a comma.


The only reason we say accept the red truth as truth is because it is the only proper way to play this game. If you doubt the red truth, you're not qualified to be Beatrice's opponent and you may as well just give up. While something like Battler suffering from an illness can certainly be possible, I find it unlikely and completely stupid. But this issue should be resolved in the next game.
 
Oct 31, 2009 1:31 AM

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Best Episode yet. I'm glad the old Beato is back. Moetrice was getting out of hand.
 
Oct 31, 2009 1:58 AM

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For those that doubt the red truth

Minor EP4 spoiler



Even without that, it's dumb to doubt the red truth. The whole game and premise falls apart if you can say lies with the red. If you're watching the show and aren't treating anything said in red as the truth then you're doing it wrong.

All things magical are exempt from the red. When it says X can't be done then it means it can't be done without magic. If it says there's only X people on the island then that's excluding magical creatures.

Don't bother trying to argue these points. It's how the game goes and if you refuse to acknowledge them then you're only making things more difficult and confusing for yourself.
 
Oct 31, 2009 3:05 AM

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New low. At the very least they gave an out for Beatrice being so out of character. I feel like this arc didn't do more than let us know there are two killers and introduce Ange way too late. Battler's as dumb as ever, and so much so that I just couldn't understand anything that was going on in his hollow head.

Beyond that, I expected a time skip in the second season, so it's very surprising that it's happened so early to me.
 
Oct 31, 2009 3:09 AM

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Why are you repeating Note?
 
Oct 31, 2009 3:14 AM
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Fabrice said:
New low. At the very least they gave an out for Beatrice being so out of character. I feel like this arc didn't do more than let us know there are two killers and introduce Ange way too late. Battler's as dumb as ever, and so much so that I just couldn't understand anything that was going on in his hollow head.

Beyond that, I expected a time skip in the second season, so it's very surprising that it's happened so early to me.


noteDhero said:
New low. At the very least they gave an out for Beatrice being so out of character. I feel like this arc didn't do more than let us know there are two killers and introduce Ange way too late. Battler's as dumb as ever, and so much so that I just couldn't understand anything that was going on in his hollow head.

Beyond that, I expected a time skip in the second season, so it's very surprising that it's happened so early to me.


Lol.
 
Oct 31, 2009 4:16 AM

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I'm just happy to see Ange.

Red web scene and Beato's "death" scene didn't quite live up to my expectations. Also, I don't think the main point of the Tea Party was clear enough, but Lamda's "Ah, I love you Bernkastel" line was enough to make up for that.

I did love Beato's troll face. Ah, Beato. She and Virgilia had me in fits of laughter once again.
Modified by amayadori, Oct 31, 2009 5:42 AM

Znips: When Shay is born she just crawls back in the womb to shitpost for another year
 
Oct 31, 2009 6:34 AM

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OMFG AWESOME ENSUES.
I was just thinking how Beato's Heel Face Turn seemed forced, fake and unnecessary, and how sick I am of Moetrice. And how weird it seems that Battler/Beato are starting to get too close to each other x__X I'm so glad she was lying all along. I can once again respect the Golden Witch.
And Ange looks like awesome? We'll see. I need to play that novel on my disc, it's been waiting for me for ages now.

I BELIEVE IN RED TRUTH. I don't know, I've never questioned anything, I'm just enjoying the show.

And just who is Lambdadelta?

MarthX said:
Why are you repeating Note?

In most of the threads he posts in, he repeats what the thread maker said. Don't ask me why though.
- If you believe this place holds you, it is a prison.
If you do not wish to leave, it will become a fortress.


Current icon:
Kusuriuri from Mononoke
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Oct 31, 2009 6:52 AM

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Lambdadelta is another witch who previously lost to Beatrice. I forget what her power is, but she's also betting in this whole thing with Bernkastel and Beatrice--against Beatrice.

...I didn't make the thread though, so I still don't know why Fabrice repeated me.
 
Oct 31, 2009 7:01 AM

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noteDhero said:
Lambdadelta is another witch who previously lost to Beatrice. I forget what her power is, but she's also betting in this whole thing with Bernkastel and Beatrice--against Beatrice.

...I didn't make the thread though, so I still don't know why Fabrice repeated me.

Oh, ok, thanks. Yeah, they mentioned something like that. I forgot xP
And that's right, you're not the thread maker :O Then I don't know. Maybe he just quotes whomever he agrees with or something.
- If you believe this place holds you, it is a prison.
If you do not wish to leave, it will become a fortress.


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Oct 31, 2009 7:04 AM

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noteDhero said:
Lambdadelta is another witch who previously lost to Beatrice. I forget what her power is, but she's also betting in this whole thing with Bernkastel and Beatrice--against Beatrice.

...I didn't make the thread though, so I still don't know why Fabrice repeated me.

What? No Lambdadelta is supposedly supporting Beatrice. She lost to Bern and now she's using this game as a means of revenge or twisted love however you want to see it >_>
 
Oct 31, 2009 7:06 AM

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MarthX said:
For those that doubt the red truth

Minor EP4 spoiler


Doesn't prove the red truth.

MarthX said:
Even without that, it's dumb to doubt the red truth.

You who is always going on about "doubting what you see".
Hah.

Just as fantasy can be questioned, so can the truthfulness of the red words.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.
 
Oct 31, 2009 7:24 AM

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Darklight0303 said:

What? No Lambdadelta is supposedly supporting Beatrice. She lost to Bern and now she's using this game as a means of revenge or twisted love however you want to see it >_>


Whoops, my bad. I remember she lost to one of them and was betting against her in favor of the other.
 
Oct 31, 2009 7:32 AM

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noteDhero said:
Lambdadelta is another witch who previously lost to Beatrice. I forget what her power is, but she's also betting in this whole thing with Bernkastel and Beatrice--against Beatrice.

...I didn't make the thread though, so I still don't know why Fabrice repeated me.


Close, she actually lost to Bernkastel. She's supposed to be supporting Beatrice, but this episode hints that perhaps she's using Beatrice for her own ends.

Lambda is the "Witch of Certainties", essentially the opposite of Bern, the Witch of Miracles. She is able to kill someone with absolute certainty every time. She also sometimes grants wishes to those who work very hard. (Like Eva, or, if you want to go there -- Miyo in Higurashi).

------

A number of people are stumbling over an aspect of the red truth and something Eva B said in her red web-not-a-web.

1) "There are only 18 people on the island."
2) This count does NOT include supernatural beings such as witches.
3) "A human committed this murder."

This doesn't seem to make sense, but basically, the last line from Eva-B indicates that witches are considered humans, even though they are not included on a count of people on the island (perhaps because one should not consider them as being "on the island", as they exist on some other plane. Now, there are have been times in previous games where Beatrice has referred to witches as not being human, or said that a particular murder could not be committed by a human. It seems a little contradictory. Of course, if you are anti-fantasy, like me, this potentially points to something very important -- I think these contradictory statements are butting up against the edges of the mystery of what "witches" really are. Because I do believe witches exist in this story, but that Beato and others are lying when they say what witches are. This whole human-not-human-not on the island thing seems kind of significant to me. Like the red truth often does, it is deceiving the player while at the same time outlining the real truth; as long as you look hard enough and put enough of the truths together, a clearer picture starts to emerge.

To people who doubt the red truth: no. Seriously. It's like doubting whether left clicking on your mouse will open a door in a video game. "Maybe I shouldn't trust the click, maybe I should find another way to open it!" Anyway, MarthX has given conclusive evidence as to the veracity of the red truth. If you don't want to spoiled for EP4, don't click on it, but also don't doubt us when we say that what's under that spoiler cut does pretty much prove that the red is NOT a lie. If you disbelieve the red truth, you aren't being discerning or skeptical. All you are doing is backing down from the challenge of actually trying to figure out the truth while observing the restrictions put on you by the red truth. ;) It's like saying, "I want to learn how to fly. But gravity gets in the way. Well, who says gravity exists anyway? I will just say gravity is a lie, and come up with a plan for how I will fly ignoring it exists."
Modified by June_1983, Oct 31, 2009 7:44 AM
 
Oct 31, 2009 7:39 AM

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ukonkivi said:
MarthX said:
Even without that, it's dumb to doubt the red truth.

You who is always going on about "doubting what you see".
Hah.
Just as fantasy can be questioned, so can the truthfulness of the red words.
Do you happen to believe this is an anime about 4 high-school girls forming a light music club?
I do! because i doubt everything I see in this show and I question if it is really about murder. I bet it is about music, eh, right?
 
Oct 31, 2009 10:01 AM

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It was such a good drama there which led me to think it is going to end there, with 8 more episodes left? And then I stepped back and thought, what the fuck were they doing? Was that what Battler suppose to be doing? At the scene where Beato tried to make Battler into believing she is a good witch... I said to myself, wasn't the purpose of this game was to make Battler accept her as a witch? I couldn't stop laughing. I am so disappoint in you, Battler.

I am with noteDhero about Ange could be the right person we need for this show. And it is almost impossible to solve anything in this show at least the point where we are right now. Everything we are learning right now is fairly just a shadow of the real thing, nothing can tell you that what you are seeing is the real thing. As for the red truth, I know you can NOT deny its truth but that doesn't mean you can NOT twist it either.

@noteDhero: Oh fu*k... you have already became a famous troll?


"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie."
 
Oct 31, 2009 12:53 PM

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Lol Beatroll is fantastic, she never disappoints. xD Good episode, I smiled at the Dragon Ball reference and tsundere joke.
 
Oct 31, 2009 3:04 PM
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if witches are counted as humans, then some witches' real names could be any of the family member's names.
so then it becomes plausible for a "dead" person who has a same name as a witch and then be killing ppl
 
Oct 31, 2009 6:24 PM

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PsychFreak said:
DeathfireD said:
So your saying even if Eva won they could still all kill each other after being "revived" even knowing that the winner brought them back and is now the new family head? Seems kind of stupid but I could see this happening I guess.


They never were revived, they only revive when a new game board is presented, but it is clear that this isn't Eva's gameboard but rather Beatrice', Eva and also in this case Eva-Beatrice was just a pawn on the chessboard for her. And you can assume that after Eva won and took the family headship, she went on a killing spree to hide those secrets, this could also apply to any other culprit who may be involved.


That makes a little more sense. So essentially they all have an equal opportunity to "become a witch" and essentially keep living if they find the gold or they could just all refuse to believe in witches like Battler and still live.


DeathfireD said:
One other thing I noticed. Assuming the red is real (since I'm playing on both sides here) "There are no more than 18 people on this island" can mean there are no more then 18 people presently on the island. She does not specify how many where involved in the "game" and as you can see with each arc new characters are showing up as being on the island but not all at the same time. Her words are indeed twisting around the truth. Battler needs to ask better questions that she cant get around and when she refuses to answer, press her with another question until she's cornered.


"No more than 18 people on the island" refers to the same 18 people you see at the start of each game, it's always the same 18 people. The new people you see appearing on the island does not count as one of the 18 because they are magical beings. It's like, if you're counting them as part of the people on the island, it's the same thing as saying magic exist.


That still doesn't mean that only 18 people where involved. Two entirely different meanings.


DeathfireD said:
BTW. How many islands are near the island they're on? I suspect there's at least 1.


It doesn't matter, that island is completely sealed off from the outside world.

We're only seeing part of the story. You cant say for sure that they are cut off from the outside world. Remember the only thing keeping THEM from getting off is a boat. There's nothing keeping other people from going to the island except for the storm.


DeathfireD said:
Last thing, someone please prove to me that the red text is really 100% pure truth. Do it without saying that it's the rule of that realm and also do it without saying "because Beato or some other person said it was a rule that cant be broken". Like Magic, people think it's real because they don't understand how it works or why it shows up. Like Eva, Battler could be suffering from an illness which makes him think he's playing a game against a witch when he could actually be in a hospital in a comma.


The only reason we say accept the red truth as truth is because it is the only proper way to play this game. If you doubt the red truth, you're not qualified to be Beatrice's opponent and you may as well just give up. While something like Battler suffering from an illness can certainly be possible, I find it unlikely and completely stupid. But this issue should be resolved in the next game.


That makes no sense. The red text cant be explained so why accept something like that? Again that's like accepting magic.
 
Oct 31, 2009 6:46 PM
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DeathfireD said:
We're only seeing part of the story. You cant say for sure that they are cut off from the outside world. Remember the only thing keeping THEM from getting off is a boat. There's nothing keeping other people from going to the island except for the storm.


They made it more evident in the VN that they really are. Yes, because of that storm, no one outside the island can interfere that means the contra-positive is also true, the ones on the island cannot escape, and because of that, they are sealed off from the outside world until the storm is over. You should not doubt this.

DeathfireD said:
That makes no sense. The red text cant be explained so why accept something like that? Again that's like accepting magic.


See MarthX's post from the previous page. Also, the red truth is something that only exists in the Meta-World a.k.a. Purgatorio, so that doesn't mean magic exists because we never see it in the real world.
 
Oct 31, 2009 9:18 PM

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hahahahahahahaha YESSSSSSSSS. OLD BEATRICE BACK. I can now forgive those episodes where she was ridiculously tsun. I love this so much.

Still kinda confused. Ange is Battler's sister, huh? I'm not sure who she was talking to in the end.

Anyway, AWESOME.
 
Oct 31, 2009 9:28 PM
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ukonkivi said:
Doesn't prove the red truth.

ukonkivi said:
Just as fantasy can be questioned, so can the truthfulness of the red words.


It proves you can't outrightly lie with the red text. The meta-world does not allow that. And the meta-world imposes it's rules on everyone. How many VN readers are going to have to explain this point over?
 
Oct 31, 2009 9:51 PM
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PlatinumHawke said:
It proves you can't outrightly lie with the red text. The meta-world does not allow that. And the meta-world imposes it's rules on everyone. How many VN readers are going to have to explain this point over?


It's funny, because about all of us VN readers here have constant belief in the red truth, while a few anime watchers, not all, constantly doubt it. It's pretty obvious who's in the wrong here.
 
Oct 31, 2009 10:18 PM
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I don't know about that though. There must have been a sizeable amount of Japanese fans that doubted the red text for Ryukishi07 to have included that nice little wake up call. That's how I read that scene anyway.

Regardless, off-topic we are about to go. That's all I have to say on that matter.
 
Oct 31, 2009 11:55 PM

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Wasnt expecting that at all. Shouldnt have underestimated Beato.
 
Nov 1, 2009 12:29 AM

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What is in red is not always true

That is when i'm the one who is saying that. hehehe

Anyway, i'm somewhat glad that Beato is... Beato.
Not that i didn't like her they way she was "acting" but it felt somehow, i don't know, the best description i can manage to givs is "meh".

I'm looking forward to next episodes, and i will probably pick up the game later...

So far the only theory i could come up with is that Nanjo had ingested some kind of item that might be considered a weapon, or something like that, but the red somewhat trashes that theory.

I'm really curious to know how Nanjo died since the only 3 people over the house are innocent, and none had anything to do with his assaination.


Red sucks, we need more blue.

Everything said in the color blue will appear in blue. And this statement will always be the truth.
Beat this one!

Okay stupid jokes asside, Rin Ange really looked like a promising character.

I just can't wait to see.
 
Nov 1, 2009 1:32 AM

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PlatinumHawke said:
The meta-world does not allow that.

But the meta-world might not even exist.

You can challenge anything you see at this point, no exceptions.
PsychFreak said:
It's funny, because about all of us VN readers here have constant belief in the red truth

Don't speak for me.
PsychFreak said:
It's pretty obvious who's in the wrong here.

Presented here, we have the flawless logic of the anti-fantasy crowd.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.
 
Nov 1, 2009 1:45 AM
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Red text = truth that can be twisted


Seriously, if you deny this, you have nothing to go on.

Just think about it, why would R07 just go and add these if they have no significance to the plot? I don't think he's that much of a troll.

And how does the meta-world not exist? If it doesn't, then that means magic exists in the real world.
 
Nov 1, 2009 1:48 AM

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PsychFreak said:
It's funny, because about all of us VN readers here have constant belief in the red truth, while a few anime watchers, not all, constantly doubt it. It's pretty obvious who's in the wrong here.

I totally agree with PsycFreak. VN readers do know more 'bout the red truth and everything than only-anime-watchers.

But imo all these topics are just full of arguments and people trying to prove their own theories. Wouldn't it be just nicer to watch the show, enjoy / hate it and then tell the opinion here. And wasn't it the same with Higurashi: just watching the first season won't tell you that much, but watching Kai will tell a lot more. And if I remember correctly, Ryokishi07 has said somewhere, that there's no proper conclusion for Umineko, but the reader has to figure it out on his/her own using the hints you're given during the game.


 
Nov 1, 2009 1:55 AM

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Denwa said:
And how does the meta-world not exist?

Meta = Metaphor. Everything in the meta world could be a metaphor.
And on an even large scale, you could call the tale of Rokkenjima a metaphor within the story it is told. There's all sorts of degrees we could be lied to here about. Not just the idea that Beatrice and a bunch of "furniture" killed the Ushiromiya family.

EP4 spoiler:


You can already negate over half of the story if you take an "anti-fantasy" stance, why not take it to it's extreme possibility and deny other things?

Denwa said:
If it doesn't, then that means magic exists in the real world.

I don't see how one comes to that conclusion.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.
 
Nov 1, 2009 3:23 AM
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If the Meta-World never existed in the first place, that would be really bad writing on Ryukishi07's part, so I seriously doubt it does not exist or it's some kind of metaphor or whatever. If it didn't exist, that means the whole point of this story meant nothing.
 
Nov 1, 2009 3:52 AM

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if you are going to disregard the Metaworld that means you also deny Lambdadelta and Bern's existence. Both Higurashi and umineko have their normal and paranormal sides. You can't get the whole picture without taking into account both.

Some people are under the wrong impression that the plot of this entire series is the confirmation or denial of the existence of magic. I believe that is WRONG. The true purpose is to uncover WHAT happened on Rokkenjima not if it was magic or not.
Modified by Darklight0303, Nov 1, 2009 4:01 AM
 
Nov 1, 2009 4:13 AM

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PsychFreak said:
If the Meta-World never existed in the first place, that would be really bad writing on Ryukishi07's part

And showing a bunch of fantasy fluff that's going to be debunked and doesn't mean anything is exceptionally good writing?

What are you basing "good" and "bad" here off of?

So this is all based on your desire and believe that Ryukishi surely made a good story?
Personally, the more anti-fantasy is conclusively proven at the end, the more disappointed I'll be.
Darklight0303 said:
Both Higurashi and umineko have their normal and paranormal sides.

I'm pretty sure one of the defining differences between Umineko and Higurashi is that in Umineko, the truthfulness of the fantasy hangs in the balance, while in Higurashi it does not.

Darklight0303 said:
The true purpose is to uncover WHAT happened on Rokkenjima not if it was magic or not.

I certainly hope and like it to trod along that path until the end.
However though, since the beginning, Battler was not content with that angle, and it's started from the beginning and an explicitly religious theme unfolded.

Such a thing would be nice. But I cannot deny greater things hang in the balance.
Indeed Benkastel, Lamb, and over half of the cast may be metaphorical at best, given what degree anti-mystery could be true. If anti-fantasy is true to even a fair degree, may favorite character in the story doesn't exist in this story.

I myself am at this point still completely anti-mystery aside from Tulpa throw in.
But bad writing indeed, that's a good way of putting it. When I was shown these revelations, I didn't realize the folly I had said back in EP1.

I could be have been very wrong. Umineko could SUCK.
Modified by ukonkivi, Nov 1, 2009 4:04 PM

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