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Poll: Ookami to Koushinryou II Episode 12 Discussion


Sep 25, 2009 8:53 PM
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Aionic said:

Like Spike made people add +1-2 points to their Cowboy Bebop ratings, she makes me add points to my S&W ratings.


Funny, because Horo actually started to lose me in the second half of this season. During the first half I was all wound up to see more Horo! She was brilliant, Lawrence was a dumbass, hooray for maintaining the status quo! Then she started to go NUTS. He fell in love with her, and she didn't want to him to. Despite all the playing around it turns out shes "scared" of them falling in love. Awesome! Now we have to endure more of her teasing while he stumbles around trying to discover why she's so scared (she's clearly not to say anything herself).

But that's alright, because overall the story and characters have become even MORE interesting to me. For Horo to be this cowardly and oblivious to her surroundings there must be a reason. It's just a shame they couldn't at least HINT at a valid reason: her explanations seem like cheap excuses to me. She's no longer "cute" to me, but she's genuinely "interesting". If they play things straight, she has the potential to be the most endearing female lead I've ever seen. It also doesn't hurt that Lawrence is finally at the stage where he can actually help us crack the mystery that is Horo. He's transformed himself from "boring, easily-teased merchant" to "confused Horo tamer". Not bad for a single season's worth of character development.

If I had to rate the season, I couldn't go lower than 7/10. The story is clearly difficult to animate without pacing issues, and it's still a fun watch (and often moving). It's tough material, and it seems like the show has a painfully low budget. It's a slight improvement over the first season's animation quality, and the voice acting and character interactions are still top-notch (just hard to follow at times). The sound and music are otherwise still as good as they were, without yet suffering from overplay. The pieces still "fit" well enough to rank quite highly.

Unfortunately I can't go any higher than 7/10. They didn't seem to try pacing the show too much. As a result the action and explanation sequences seemed confusing and hokey, even contrived. Sure, the main focus of the show should be on Lawrence and Horo's relationship, but not at such a high cost that suspension of disbelief is completely lost. There were also animation issues galore, although I don't care too much about that because the voice acting is really why I watch the anime version of Spice and Wolf. But it does hamper things a little more than I expected; upon second viewings where I wasn't reading subtitles furiously I occasionally cringed at how off-model the faces were rendered.. eew.

So here's hoping season 3 kicks it up a notch and elevates this from being "interesting yet plodding" into something that's truly memorable.
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Sep 25, 2009 8:57 PM
 
Sep 25, 2009 9:07 PM

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10/10 The Kiss seen was the best!
But now I question what will happen in season 3! (hopefully there is one)
 
Sep 25, 2009 10:22 PM

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Excellent. Quite possibly even more excellent than the first season. Another solid 9/10, and I am contemplating switching to a 10. Horo is <3. Season 3 gogogo.
 
Sep 25, 2009 10:43 PM

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mazen said:
The Kiss seen was the best!

Except for the animation during the aforementioned scene.
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Sep 26, 2009 12:53 AM
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Kinda unsurprisingly uneventful end but this season left me wanting more. Pretty excited for what they might go through next.
 
Sep 26, 2009 4:15 AM

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I don't know what the 9-10/10 people are taking but I want some of it.

BashZeStampeedo said:
Funny, because Horo actually started to lose me in the second half of this season. During the first half I was all wound up to see more Horo! She was brilliant, Lawrence was a dumbass, hooray for maintaining the status quo! Then she started to go NUTS. He fell in love with her, and she didn't want to him to. Despite all the playing around it turns out shes "scared" of them falling in love. Awesome! Now we have to endure more of her teasing while he stumbles around trying to discover why she's so scared (she's clearly not to say anything herself).


She didn't lose any of my interest or love; she simply frustrated me. In the OVA - which I'm assuming is anime filler after watching S2 - she was clearly in love with Lawrence; dreaming about him and blushing constantly. Going on that, all she needed was a push in the right direction. Horo in the OVA was clearly more forward thinking romantically than the Horo of S1.

However, S2 came and she had serious mortal man dating issues. Understandable, but I couldn't help but feel the issue was there to prevent the two from advancing too much with so much of the story still to go. And, unlike in S1 where I feel the business and Horo aspects flowed well together, in S2 it seemed to me like the entire second half (business side) was just there to stretch the story out further. Horo even told Lawrence not to get involved for no reason. Plot stretching is the only explanation I can come up with for Lawrence using Horo in a deal, her going along with it and him leaving her behind in the final episode. He had enough smarts to know what he valued more, yet he still let himself use her for money - idiocy at its finest.

During the episode where Horo revealed she wanted to break up their partnership out of fear and the two were talking together on the same bed, I was waiting for Lawrence to grab her wrists like in episode three (/doujin time), force her down for a second and, looking straight into her eyes, confess his feelings. Although the poor ending suggested otherwise, it seemed clear to me that if he'd acted manly there - like Horo loves males to - she would've stopped the silly talk and given in.

I can understand why Lawrence didn't, though. Horo is very hard to read, always being flirty but rarely being serious. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to piss off a 600 year old wolf Goddess by forcing the issue. Hell, when she was lying on her bed and first admitted to having a fear (before the episode mentioned in the paragraph above), I assumed - being a male - she was referring to a sexual issue of some kind, or the fear of not being able to reproduce 'normal' babies or pups because of their mixed species. I think that issue might come up later, but thinking about it now she was obviously referring to her fear of being left behind by Lawrence, linking up the story with her dream. My point is, it isn't easy to understand Horo.

As for the overall story and characters improving, I'm unsure how you can say that. In the second half I felt no involvement, not caring about the town or the masked woman. Apart from a few LxH scenes, it was easily the worst part of S&W to date, in my mind anyway. At least the final arc of S1 - the armour trap - made me care; I felt sorry for Lawrence and wanted him to pull through, also feeling bad for Horo since she only wanted to help. That arc did end poorly, the final episode seeming to be fast-forwarded through, but it wins easily when compared to the fur rebellion. I honestly didn't even give a toss what Lawrence and the masked woman were talking about in the final episode because nothing was shown to make me care about her plight or the fur situation.

Art/animation: it never bothered me. I was too busy trying to read and comprehend the subtitles without pausing or rewinding to notice poor animation, and the art always looked nice when I wasn't too busy looking at the bottom of the screen. I'm looking forward to watching S&W dubbed on DVD just so I no longer need to keep reading more than I watch!

Edit: Changed my rating to 7/10. I'm torn - my actual rating being 7.5/10 - but I want to show that I think S2 is inferior to S1, and 2x 8/10 doesn't tell people that's what I think.
Modified by AironicallyHuman, Sep 26, 2009 4:58 AM
 
Sep 26, 2009 4:44 AM

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9/10 the ending was good but left something to be desired. Hopefully we get another season with better pacing too.
 
Sep 26, 2009 6:46 AM
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Hi Guys. I had fun reading 5 and a half pages of panicked replies at the kiss scene.

When you see why Lawrence didn't french kiss Horo, you'll sh*t bricks.
Modified by apikachu, Sep 26, 2009 7:08 AM
 
Sep 26, 2009 7:38 AM

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apikachu said:
When you see why Lawrence didn't french kiss Horo, you'll sh*t bricks.


If this is true, i'm scared.
 
Sep 26, 2009 8:47 AM
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Heh.. I can't resist but prolong the conversation :) Shows you how interesting the story is; it's been many a year since I got this involved, let alone for a "romance" story.

Aionic said:

Horo in the OVA was clearly more forward thinking romantically than the Horo of S1.


Yeah, that was likely when she started to realize that she was falling in love with him (the OVA seemed to push that angle more than the novels). It's also likely the reason that she was so shadowy and devious in Kumerson, and why she ultimately accepted Lawrence's stupidity (not that she wasn't partly to blame herself for being so damn cryptic and playing so terribly with Amarti in the first place).

But it also clearly showed that she had severe issues with the idea (her nightmare sequence in the anime leads you into thinking that she's only worried that he'll eventually die, but I don't think the novels ever mention what her nightmare was about, only that she dreamt of home and wheat fields).

Aionic said:

Horo even told Lawrence not to get involved [in more dangerous business] for no reason.

He had enough smarts to know what he valued more, yet he still let himself use her for money - idiocy at its finest.


That's completely unfair, because Lawrence DID avoid getting involved (because she told him not to). He even reported everything to her, justifying why he didn't want to do it. She basically used every possible argument to persuade him to do it anyway.

She played on his greed and over-confidence in the room, and attacked him with some ruthless "you are not a real man" implications. He backed off until later when he figured out that it was a dangerous situation and still didn't want to do it. She told him she would beg him to do it if she had to. Then again in the last episode, just before he sold her, he made it clear that he still didn't really want to do it and she slapped him hard in the face.

Can you really blame him for doing it in the end? If she's that resolved to leave him, why press the issue anymore? He had given her every chance to avoid it, and every sign that he didn't want to do it. She practically made the decision for him. Hell, even after he came into the room after buying her back, she assumed it was because he'd failed and was trying to get her to "save the day". He had to actively defy her, then spell it out for her, then take a vicious punch to the face before she finally understood what was going on (more on this shortly).

Aionic said:

During the episode where Horo revealed she wanted to break up their partnership out of fear and the two were talking together on the same bed, I was waiting for Lawrence to grab her wrists like in episode three (/doujin time), force her down for a second and, looking straight into her eyes, confess his feelings.

Although the poor ending suggested otherwise, it seemed clear to me that if he'd acted manly there [when she decided to break up] - like Horo loves males to - she would've stopped the silly talk and given in.


Maybe, but I highly doubt it. Short of declaring his love, that's basically how he responded. She admitted in that scene that she was scared that he accepted everything she did. If he just told her he loved her, albeit forcefully, that wouldn't change anything. He had to prove his resolve and actively DEFY her before she would wake up.

In the end, he had to risk his life, ruin her plans, give up his dream (temporarily), stand up to her physical and emotional abuse, declare his love, counter her pessimism with optimism, and on top of that accept that she might never even reciprocate! It wasn't until he spelled all of that out that she finally broke down in tears and accepted that she couldn't chase him away. Which is why, frankly, that episode nearly moved me to tears. The dude's really fallen hard for her if he's that willing to put up with her.

Aionic said:

As for the overall story and characters improving, I'm unsure how you can say that.


I was referring to Lawrence and Horo specifically. The side characters never really come into the equation, although in Abe's case there is a chance of eventual growth if she reappears in the next series, but who really cares about Abe? This isn't that kind of story.

Lawrence really grew a lot this season. He realized that he had a new "dream", and shelved the one he had been working on for 7 years. He started to truly affect Horo profoundly, not just with his kindness but his newfound ability to sometimes come up to her level. He also managed to start showing his true feelings, even when they were negative, and to stand up to her. Like you said, she's a 600-year-old wolf goddess, and here is a guy that can honestly and sincerely stand up to her. I no longer feel sorry for Lawrence, I think he's come into his own as a character.

Horo was a mixed bag, but I see some definite growth there. She clearly has fallen in love with Lawrence yet can't express why she isn't reciprocating. She's no longer just a cute and convenient deus ex machina to solve all of Lawrence's problems. She's a deeply troubled, possibly damaged, character who is relying more on Lawrence than she lets on. Rather than seeing the same courage I saw in the first season, I see her getting scared and making some very poor judgment calls. It's not nearly enough growth, but it's growth in a direction that defines her as a more "realistic" character.

I completely agree, however, that the second half of the season was poorly realized. You really have to dig deeply and pay close attention to understand what's going on, and frankly if the novel translation was available I'd have read it instead starting at about episode 9.. it just got too confusing too quickly. And that's the reason I also felt season 2 was inferior to season 1. It was.. unbalanced.

apikachu said:

When you see why Lawrence didn't french kiss Horo, you'll sh*t bricks.


Bricks were being sh*t as I watched him move in for the kiss.. thankfully averted!
 
Sep 26, 2009 9:57 AM

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The part ''i love you''
was simply ''FINALLY!! he confessed. XD
but a bit disappointed that horo didnt react the way i wanted to, like she wasnt that suprise. anyway nice build up, season3 no?

anyway loved this season, gave it a 9/10
 
Sep 26, 2009 11:59 AM

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BashzaStampede and Israfel, you make it pointless for me to post.
I mean, you guys always beat me to it :P

Anyways, I liked this season as much as I liked the first. Props to Brain Base for staying faithful to the novel. They followed it letter by letter and you know what? They made the ending of this chapter less dramatic than how it really is.
The only thing I didn't like about this season is the soundtrack. I wish the OP and ED songs and background music were better. For the most part, they seemed out of place and they were just annoying. I'd like for whoever's working on the third season to include a soundtrack which carries the general sentiments and feelings of every scene rather getting in the way.
That was my only complaint.

I can't wait for a third season to be made.
 
Sep 26, 2009 1:07 PM

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BashZeStampeedo said:
Aionic said:

Like Spike made people add +1-2 points to their Cowboy Bebop ratings, she makes me add points to my S&W ratings.


Funny, because Horo actually started to lose me in the second half of this season. During the first half I was all wound up to see more Horo!


Horo did lose me in the second season.
 
Sep 26, 2009 4:27 PM

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BashZeStampeedo said:
Heh.. I can't resist but prolong the conversation :) Shows you how interesting the story is; it's been many a year since I got this involved, let alone for a "romance" story.


I know how you feel, though laziness makes me not want to enter into an endless multi-quote discussion. :) Collecting my thoughts, proof reading once to check for major errors (which I miss), making slight edits, checking again... it's like reviewing; a total pain in the arse for lazy sods like me. But, since I'm in the mood, I'll give it a go.

8/10 (8.5/10, technically) isn't a high rating but S&W really did it for me in terms of characterization. It stood out from the crowd; a title with a male/female relationship that advanced naturally and didn't involve a 15 year old girl or a village idiot male lead. And, while I didn't like the trading talk, it made the experience memorable - I'd never seen a series where merchant trading plays a key part before.

As I've said, the the final episode of S1 did disappoint me (it seeming rushed) but I still went into S2 expecting a lot. Maybe too much, in truth. Naturally, with S1 starting the story and introducing the characters, it had a lot more to offer than the 'middle' of the story, and going into S2 I wasn't aware of the fact there are 12+ light novels. In an ideal world, S2 would've concluded the story, or at least reached a point where S3 would finish the story. But, in the end, S2 offered very little, only the episode three drama and the scenes showing Lawrence becoming very comfy around Horo (as well as the bad ending, of course) being vital. Really, with the content covered (a volume was even skipped, presumably due to it not including anything essential) S2 never had much of a chance of bettering its prequel, the only hope it had being the increasingly intimate LxH scenes.

Knowing how many volumes are left to be covered, it makes me worried. In S1 L&H got to know each other, in S2 they got very close to becoming a couple. How can their relationship get dragged out for another 7+ volumes without being dull? There's the possibility they get together earlier, but I can't see them doing so until the story is close to its conclusion because there'd be no sexual tension in the air; nothing to look forward to. I don't think it'll remain enjoyable if I have to endure another season or two before they finally stop messing around, knowing full well they were already on the verge of becoming an item at the end of S2...

BashZeStampeedo said:
Yeah, that was likely when she started to realize that she was falling in love with him (the OVA seemed to push that angle more than the novels). It's also likely the reason that she was so shadowy and devious in Kumerson, and why she ultimately accepted Lawrence's stupidity (not that she wasn't partly to blame herself for being so damn cryptic and playing so terribly with Amarti in the first place).


I want to read the novels. Firstly to see how the story differs and secondly to get to experience more Spice and Wolf. The problem is, nothing is going to get released in English until 2010, and then I'll have to wait forever for each volume to get translated. It's not the best situation to be in... it isn't as if another anime is just around the corner.

What I want to see the most is if Horo is as open about her feelings as she was in the OVA and if she didn't react to Lawrence's kiss like in the anime (assuming the kiss happened at all). After watching the final episode of S2, I'm unsure if the animation studio screwed up or if that's how it is in the original story.

-----

Horo used Amarti to see how much Lawrence truly cared for her, so yes - she did it out of love. A lot of what happened was down to a series of misunderstandings, but she did intentionally play with the feelings of both. Lawrence had never been straight with Horo before, him being too shy to express himself beyond calling her "special", and the way he 'maturely' reacted to Amarti's challenge - confident she would stay with him, no matter what - would piss of anyone in Horo's position. So, when Horo jumped to conclusions over Lawrence knowing about her village, she released everything she'd been storing up. Both were at fault (it's never black and white between them), but Lawrence has to take a lot of the blame for restricting himself and getting over-confident.

BashZeStampeedo said:
That's completely unfair, because Lawrence DID avoid getting involved (because she told him not to). He even reported everything to her, justifying why he didn't want to do it. She basically used every possible argument to persuade him to do it anyway..


Lawrence made the first error - a big one - by not saying no straight away. Instead of refusing to even consider the idea, he slept on it, sweating away through the night, and then told Horo. She saw that he wanted the money - not ruling out the plan despite the danger - but was torn because of her, so she then decided to push him into it because she saw herself as a hassle. She noticed he'd changed - putting her above money - and she didn't like that for two reasons: the first being that she hated being treated like a child and the second being that she was thinking about cutting her ties with him to avoid future heartache. Simply put, she didn't want to influence his business decisions, taking a greater role of importance than money, when her fear had started driving her away from him. She wasn't 'white' in the mess but her intentions were good.

Anyway. The whole plan was stupid. He took Horo to people he hadn't dealt with before, not knowing if they were going to give money or kidnap her once they entered (it was possible Abe had made a deal for Horo at that stage). Why go that far when they didn't need the money and were traveling? Like Horo pointed out when they first entered the town; it wasn't necessary to get involved.

BashZeStampeedo said:
Maybe, but I highly doubt it. Short of declaring his love, that's basically how he responded. She admitted in that scene that she was scared that he accepted everything she did. If he just told her he loved her, albeit forcefully, that wouldn't change anything. He had to prove his resolve and actively DEFY her before she would wake up.

In the end, he had to risk his life, ruin her plans, give up his dream (temporarily), stand up to her physical and emotional abuse, declare his love, counter her pessimism with optimism, and on top of that accept that she might never even reciprocate! It wasn't until he spelled all of that out that she finally broke down in tears and accepted that she couldn't chase him away. Which is why, frankly, that episode nearly moved me to tears. The dude's really fallen hard for her if he's that willing to put up with her.


I agree; Horo requires action rather than words. The part in S1 where she was angry Lawrence hadn't saved her on his own in a manly/suicidal attempt, instead setting up her rescue behind the scenes, told me all I need to know about her. She's not the kind of person to be won over by sweet talk alone; she needs her man to protect her and take control when required. Not an easy task by any means when Horo is Horo.

That's why, had Lawrence been aggressive instead of acting like his normal restrained self at that moment, I think he would've won over Horo there and then. She was as unstable as ever, on the verge of leaving, and required Lawrence to show her how much he wanted her. They were alone in a room at night, they mood was good and, unlike with the rebellion drama part, I think she would've responded in that situation.

Time and time again, Lawrence came close to stroking Horo's hair while she slept, with her acting like she was asleep and waiting, but he never made a move. If not for his hesitant actions, they more than likely wouldn't have lived together for months and done nothing.

BashZeStampeedo said:
I was referring to Lawrence and Horo specifically.


Ah, sorry. When I read your post, it came across like you were talking about the actual story rather than the characterization. I don't blame you for confusing the story for characterization in the case of S&W; they're one and the same. That's why I referred to the actual story that pushes forward each arc - the trading talk - as the "background story".

BashZeStampeedo said:
Lawrence really grew a lot this season. He realized that he had a new "dream", and shelved the one he had been working on for 7 years.


I agree. In the previous series he was only getting to know Horo and learning not to be shocked by her true form. It was only in S2 where it became clear he valued Horo more than his dream of owning a shop (though him not saying no to the 'sell Horo' plan annoyed me). As well as conversing with Horo better, he also touched Horo with ease and didn't feel embarrassed by her presence. The way he kept kissing her hand when being playful showed how close the two had become; Horo didn't mind and he didn't hesitate to do so.

BashZeStampeedo said:
She's a deeply troubled, possibly damaged, character who is relying more on Lawrence than she lets on. It's not nearly enough growth, but it's growth in a direction that defines her as a more "realistic" character.


Horo was shown to be very unstable in S2; far more so than in the prequel. In the prequel she was mostly shown to be a wise and experienced person, though there were times where she expressed how she feared being alone. Apart from her going crazy at the end of episode three, in S2 there were lots of other examples of Horo's weaker side, such as her feeling the need to use Amarti to get Lawrence to be honest - to wash away her insecurities - and, later, she was so afraid of her wonderful relationship with Lawrence not lasting that she came close to running away.

Deep down, Horo is very insecure, despite her lengthy life and all of her experiences. She needs Lawrence to protect her on an emotional level; giving her love and preventing her from the loneliness that had consumed her.
Modified by AironicallyHuman, Sep 26, 2009 4:33 PM
 
Sep 26, 2009 5:41 PM

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I wasn't very interested in the economics and the story lost me at times. I also felt there wasn't enough Horo, who is basically the reason I'm watching it for.

Overall I liked the first season better.
Modified by stAtic91, Dec 10, 2009 6:05 AM
 
Sep 26, 2009 7:24 PM
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Aionic said:
Knowing how many volumes are left to be covered, it makes me worried.


That makes two of us, but they are proceeding at a rapid-enough clip that it should be able to conclude in 2, maybe 3 seasons at the rate they are going, depending on how many of the volumes remain to be published, and how many can be skipped or turned into OAVs safely.

Aionic said:
What I want to see the most is if Horo is as open about her feelings as she was in the OVA and if she didn't react to Lawrence's kiss like in the anime (assuming the kiss happened at all).


So far the novels are from Lawrence's perspective, aside from two chapters from her POV (the second OAV covers one of them, I haven't read the other). So far, there is no major difference I can recall up to the second half of this season (which I haven't read).


I've heard on a forum somewhere that this episode's kiss may not be in the story, or that it wasn't necessarily meant to be a "kiss" (which makes sense).

Aionic said:

Lawrence has to take a lot of the blame for restricting himself and getting over-confident.

Horo used Amarti to see how much Lawrence truly cared for her, so yes - she did it out of love.


That's true, Lawrence was a total idiot that whole sequence. But I can't be unkind to him and kind to Horo. She acted just as stupidly as he did the whole time. I'm also not 100% that she did it out of "love", but I'll tentatively buy it because I'm not that willing to vilify her.

It all started because Horo decided to test Lawrence. Up until that point he didn't even know he had deeper feelings for Horo. So she set up an elaborate game that he would surely fail unless he already loved her. He failed it. Then she accidentally tore a strip out of him and put him into an emotional state that few guys can cope with. He misinterpreted her apology, and ran off sulking.

She realized he misinterpreted her, yet she couldn't bring herself to give him a simple, direct sign of emotional support. She was too proud for that. Instead she concocted a bunch of elaborate clues that he could even more easily misinterpret. She got really lucky that Lawrence found emotional support from someone else. Even so, she could not accept any responsibility. Rather than apologizing for putting him through hell, or thanking him for trusting her in the end, she bit his hand and treated it as though everything was his fault (knowing full well that he would believe her).

That doesn't sound too loving to me? But even so, I understand that her pride is more important to her than Lawrence, and I'm also willing to write her mistakes off as her just not knowing how to be direct and come down to Lawrence's level. I found it hilarious that even Deanna seemed to want to punish her for her pride and insane expectations of Lawrence :)

Aionic said:
Lawrence made the first error - a big one - by not saying no straight away [to Abe/Eve's proposal of selling Horo off]. Instead of refusing to even consider the idea, he slept on it, sweating away through the night, and then told Horo.


I agree with you there. But he's not superman, he has greed issues that both of them are well aware of. It makes no difference in the end, does it? He had nightmares over it, and made his choice. So why did Horo decide to drag him through the mud over it? He clearly took a big step there by not letting his greed win for a change, and instead of being happy about it she convinced him that in this case he should be selfish and that his greed was good. Mixed messages, anyone?

Aionic said:
Anyway. The whole plan was stupid. He took Horo to people he hadn't dealt with before, not knowing if they were going to give money or kidnap her once they entered (it was possible Abe had made a deal for Horo at that stage). Why go that far when they didn't need the money and were traveling? Like Horo pointed out when they first entered the town; it wasn't necessary to get involved.


I agree that the plan was stupid, but Lawrence still only did it after she pressured him into it. Every time he learned of yet more risks and flaws with the plan, he expressed his desire to opt out. But she kept pushing him into it.

Horo's behavior was also a complete 180 to what she said when they entered the city.. you can't fairly consider it when she basically tells him to ignore it. She asked him not to get involved, and he wasn't getting involved. Then she forced him to get involved.

Finally, you have to consider that he won't be at the top of his game this time.. he has a lot on his plate because Horo is leaving everything up to him. He even asked her twice for advice, but she didn't give him any (possibly missing his cues or something).

Even if he WAS at the top of his game he's never done anything like this on his own. Horo is always helping him, and even then he routinely screws it up. For her to leave him to his own devices and expect him to pull it off is monumentally stupid. It also explains why he'd miss her possible advances, even the ones just before she dumps him.

Aionic said:
That's why, had Lawrence been aggressive instead of acting like his normal restrained self at that moment, I think he would've won over Horo there and then. She was as unstable as ever, on the verge of leaving, and required Lawrence to show her how much he wanted her. They were alone in a room at night, they mood was good and, unlike with the rebellion drama part, I think she would've responded in that situation.

Time and time again, Lawrence came close to stroking Horo's hair while she slept, with her acting like she was asleep and waiting, but he never made a move. If not for his hesitant actions, they more than likely wouldn't have lived together for months and done nothing.


There are several major problems with assuming this; first, it's totally against his character to be that aggressive. Second, she's trained him into thining that every vague bit of innuendo she throws at him is actually a tease (whether or not that was her intent). Third, she knows he is interested (she's noticed it several times) yet she always seems to back off rather than coming on stronger.

So, given that, why not train him a little differently? Is she hoping that one day he'll stumble on the answer himself and snap into "dominant alpha wolf" mode? If that's the case, then it's really her fault. Why not jump into his bed like in the first season? Why not use more direct language or push a little harder? She's as much to blame as he is.

Besides, even if we ignore all of this and blame Lawrence I'm still not convinced that it would have ended out well. Based on her explanation for dumping him, she needed a lot more than a little sex and some possibly sincere "I love yous" to keep her around. She was *scared* of his love. It took everything he had to stand up to that fear and force her to accept it.

In other words, I still don't think this was a simple "I don't think you're serious, so I'm ending this relationship" misunderstanding. I honestly think he got lucky and stumbled into the right solution to the puzzle in the end. But Horo being Horo, she just can't bring herself down to his level and must rely on random chance to show Lawrence the light between her confusing mess of mixed signals.

Aionic said:
Deep down, Horo is very insecure, despite her lengthy life and all of her experiences. She needs Lawrence to protect her on an emotional level; giving her love and preventing her from the loneliness that had consumed her.


I agree, and he relies on her being there to remind him that he's both useful, and worth someone else's love and attention. They are both tragically lonely characters who don't really know what they are doing.
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Sep 26, 2009 7:33 PM
 
Sep 26, 2009 7:58 PM

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yowza just read through all that. Great conversation between bash and Aionic, it may have shed some light on one of the following questions i had all set to go.


I finally finished, watched the 2nd season all back to back.. hmm actually i wasn't that thrilled with this last episode. Im not sure if Mazui's translation was off or what but there was quite a bit that was kinda confusing. The gist of its pretty clear. Lawrence voices what he really wants to Horo. Last episode, the scene with the green house and the nun had him realize Horo is what he really wants. To be with her and travel with her, the actual journey is his new dream.

I dont get why everyones talking about this kiss. It WASN'T a kiss! They rubbed noses, so i guess in wolf language thats a kiss, but there was certainly no passionate human kiss or anything. They did that in Horo's dream in the OAV too

the major conversation that i found horribly confusing was the one near the beginning when they head to the dock. I'll have to wait for frostiis subs to see if mazui was just way off or something but as it stands im very confused what the meaning of it was. Hopefully someone can clarify this for me; although it may be a bit clearer now after reading bash and aionics back and forth

heres the transcription
L: if the deal goes well and i become a successful merchant, you'll congratulate me then bid me farewell. And if the deal goes bad, you wouldn't stand being sold, so you'd transform into a wolf and abandon your useless companion so you could return home.
In other words, the only way i can continue traveling with you is to throw away this chance. Im sure your going to tell me, "Dont throw it all away--
H: "--just to gamble on a single thread of hope"
L:"Thats why i didn't want to say"
H:is that what you really think?
L: yes
H: that id be happy with that?
L:yes
*Horo slaps lawrence starts trembling*
H: I wont say im happy. But i definitely wont say im sorry
L: With this, our chances of traveling together any farther have completely vanished. This is what you wished for, right?
*Horo looks very hurt/sad opens mouth to say something*
H: I will remember you as a c alculating, cool-headed merchant
L: shall we go?
*they get to the place they will sell her for colateral horo is crying*
H: if there is an all powerfull god like they say, why does he let us suffer so much?

ok.. now to me the conversation at the start seems to be him pointing out that any way the deal goes he will lose horo, so he really would rather just not go through with the deal. He wants to throw it all away to still travel with her. i THINK thats what he means by throw it all away to gamble on a string of hope. Is that right?

the part that confuses the hell outa me is when she gets pissed and slaps him and basically says its not what she wants. His reply confuse me, he basically says that he will go with the deal and they will soon say goodbye, which is in direct conflict with what he was saying near the start (unless i misunderstood it) Did her slap change his mind? what was she really thinking? this scene seriously confused me, i dont get the intent at all. After reading Bash's my guess is that he WAS talking about getting out of it but she basically forced him into going along with it, is that right? her trembling and all the other stuff still makes it very confusing o_O what am i missing here? Maybe some of you understood that better than i did, or the frostii translation may clear it up a bit


anyway, overall i wasn't all that pleased with the episode, Eve's position was convoluted and not that clear to me. Was she planning on betraying Lawrence the whole time? If not whyd she suddenly chose to do so then? I dont understand what the hell she meant when she whispered "im hoping' to lawrence at the end. Could it have been more vague? Hoping for what? great fortunes? hoping to find what she wants when she gets that fortune? what? Her dialog before she turns the tables is confusing too. She mentions that after watching that aristocrat that bought her she started to wonder what the point of making money was. While she ruminates over having to just keep making more and more money, and what sad people they are theres scenes of the innkeeper. Why? whats she talking about? If she saw how foolish that path was WHY THE HELL IS SHE FOLLOWING IT!!!?? I cant understand it and it cripples her character. She started to be quite interesting to me, but really fell apart this episode in my opinion. Did anyone understand this? Maybe the novels explain it better because it makes no sense to me as it stands now.

Another thing, what the hell happend to the old man? No one mentioned that. Did Eve kill him? did he go with her?

and a less important question. Why was Lawrence staring at his cart. It looked odd, was it stripped down? Did Eve do that, or was it just robbed? or was that not even his cart? lol. That ones not very important but i just found it strange.

I DID like the scene near the end with Horo though, and that really saves the episode/season in my eyes. Lawrence finally voiced what was important to him after realizing it last episode; Horo and his journey with her is his real dream now. The line from episode 11 was great "i believe its very fortunate if you're able to pursue modest dreams" I really enjoyed his confession of love to her at the end here and her subdued stuned reaction followed by the tears were great.

I'm definatly with Bash on lawrence really coming into his own here. Theres a lot of haters out there who complain about him but honestly Horos the one that was being dense and childish here IMO. Lawrence pretty much layed it all bare, and yet shes the one dragging her feet and still refusing to really reciprocate. Shes the one still playing games

the very end with them walking to the docks has me wondering though.. were they just heading out to continue their journey, or were they actually going there to find Eve? If they were just leaving id think it would end with them getting the cart and leaving.

episode rating 7/10, overall season 2 rating 9/10

*phew* long post but this was a really great series. Most of the stuff ive been watching since i got back into anime recently after a long hiatus has been kinda the same garbage that made me abandon it in the first place several years back. This show was a nice breath of fresh air and i really hope for a season 3. Unfortunately though it seems to me the way they ended this seems kinda like a 'off int he sunset' thing you see a lot of people wrap stuff up on. Im not holding my breath for a season 3 but id really hope for one. Im defiantly going to start reading the novel translations now

yeesh this whole page number is nothing but loonnggg winded posts ;P
 
Sep 26, 2009 8:16 PM
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kenshindono said:
yowza just read through all that..


Heh.. I just replied to your post on another forum, but I'll paste it here as well.. too tired to re-read it though..

---

Before I start, note that I haven't read this volume of the novels. Still, I think you are right. He hasn't wanted to go through with the plan from the start, but Horo keeps pushing him for some reason. She did a total 180 and confused the hell out of him. She played every angle she could to get him to do it: attacking his pride and abilities, using the "do it for me" excuse, practically begging him to do it, and finally slapping him in the face.

I think that whole scene was just him pointing out to her that she's put him in a position he doesn't want to be in, and giving her one last chance. He honestly thinks she doesn't really want him to do it, and it takes a pretty hard slap in the face to convince him to do it. He seems very upset that she's willing to go this far to reject him, when she obviously doesn't want to. So he goes along with it, possibly to give her time to think about how stupidly she's acting.

It makes their next scene much more memorable, because in the end she's pissed off not because he's in love with her, but because he DEFIED her so openly and daringly. He's willing to openly take the plunge and declare that he loves her. Even if she never reciprocates. What he declares is almost purely unconditional love, in fact, he just wants to be with her until they get to Yoitsu. When she realizes that there is nothing she can do to convince him otherwise, she breaks down and cries (I liked the attention to detail there, when she was shaking out of what I presume was a mixture of rage and utter terror at his kindness).

What remains to be seen is what Horo is REALLY afraid of. She clearly isn't afraid of his love, or any of her other lame excuses (like being worried that their relationship will become "less fun"). She's clearly scared of some hidden consequence of their love, but she's so cowardly or proud (or both) she can't even tell him that much. Thankfully, he's now in a position to stand up to her and eventually crack the case, because it seems she'll never tell him on her own. Hopefully that will be the least we get out of season 3 :)

Another interesting thing is that she mentioned TWICE that she expected him to "take responsibility for what happens from now on". This is one of the signs I'm using to guess that she's worried about the consequences of them falling in love. Is she a praying mantis or black widow or something?

kenshindono said:

I'm definatly with Bash on lawrence really coming into his own here. Theres a lot of haters out there who complain about him but honestly Horos the one that was being dense and childish here IMO. Lawrence pretty much layed it all bare, and yet shes the one dragging her feet and still refusing to really reciprocate. Shes the one still playing games


I consider him a great character partly *because* people are so polarized by him, yet they still watch the show and comment about it. If you can identify with a character so readily they must be pretty good. But yeah, I do agree that he routinely gets a bum rap and Horo is always given a free pass.. that's just the nature of being the regular human next to a moe wolfgirl deity :D
 
Sep 27, 2009 6:04 AM

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Lovely last episode =)

Lawrence was brilliant in every way, the basically uncovered Abe's entire plan to back stab him on his own, and still kept his head cool.
He even managed to dodge two surprise attacks and overpower her with ease.

Finally he made a decision, mustered some courage and confessed his true feelings for Horo too, he even kissed her! =D
Though the whole kiss could and should definitely have been done better, because is was such a major moment.


Wonder if he's going to get back on Abe, anyway I so want S3 now xD
 
Sep 27, 2009 9:15 AM

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I didn't think it was possible, but I enjoyed this season even more than the first... Lets hope the third keeps up the high standards!

Might even overtake TTGL in my books if the third season (which will come eventually) goes well.
 
Sep 27, 2009 2:16 PM

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I really hope that there is a third season. Great ending though I thought!
 
Sep 27, 2009 3:11 PM

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Finally a show with a good ending. Awesome series overall, also it was awesome that Lawrence finally confessed. 9/10 from me.
 
Sep 27, 2009 5:06 PM

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I hate to say it, but im glad its over.
I was a little bored throughout the series..
7/10.
 
Sep 27, 2009 5:37 PM

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9/10

First season was better, but not by that much.
 
Sep 28, 2009 9:12 PM

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i liked the first season better


 
Sep 29, 2009 1:22 AM

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the novel is longer than this
in the novel they must choose between thier furture or love by the fate
so if they would make a anime seson of all that
it s 7of 2 left
i am going to be the i the one with the biggest manga pocket collgection

url=http://myanimelist.net/animelist/enerjak&sclick=1][/url]
 
Sep 29, 2009 9:21 PM
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Kinda just stumbled across this anime recently, love it tbh :P
Gief third season
Also do you think there was a reason they had to play down the scene in which they finally kissed? >>
 
Sep 29, 2009 9:32 PM
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cleftshooter said:
Also do you think there was a reason they had to play down the scene in which they finally kissed? >>


On several forums I've read several opinions. The consensus seems to be that it wasn't really a kiss, or at least it was intended as more a tease than passionate kiss. IIRC, some of the possible reasons were that:
- he had blood in his mouth, so frenching her might not end so well..
- she had just kicked him in the chest, and he was sarcastically counter-attacking her in Lawrence-fashion
- he was daring or challenging her, by giving her a small taste of what she could really have
- he was playing it safe, while making it obvious that he wanted more

Of course it might be all four. Personally I think the second is most likely, but that's just my $0.02 since I haven't read the novels and I'm going by Mazui's sub and the expressions on their faces. I recall someone mentioning that the kiss wasn't in the novels (at least not as a kiss).
 
Sep 30, 2009 2:57 AM
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IZUMI64 said:
Oosran said:
KyuuA4 said:
Oosran said:
IZUMI64 said:
give me that kiss scene pic...^^

Oosran delivers, here you go : )


You call that a kiss?! XD


Not really, but it's the only one that's in there : O


not look like a kiss,,but thanks


Looked more like a little sniff..
 
Sep 30, 2009 7:25 AM

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poep said:
IZUMI64 said:
Oosran said:
KyuuA4 said:
Oosran said:
IZUMI64 said:
give me that kiss scene pic...^^

Oosran delivers, here you go : )


You call that a kiss?! XD


Not really, but it's the only one that's in there : O


not look like a kiss,,but thanks


Looked more like a little sniff..


Indeed it did. "Hi, you smell good" ...wait O.o
Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile.
Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(゚Д゚щ) Nope™, probably not.
 
Sep 30, 2009 2:07 PM

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WOOOHOOOOO!! :D

LAWRENCE FINALLY SAID IT!
He made it plain and simple. Without any room for a misunderstanding. GOSH DARN IT..... he really did it, didnt he? Im so proud! :P

And then I nearly missed a little miracle (I needed to watch that scene several times). They really gave us a small but tender kiss. I would never have expected this at all even throughout the whole 12 S&W novels (and as someone mentioned, it seems as if this wasnt in the novel).
Some people say that this wasnt a kiss and Lawrence was just rubbing her nose. I have to wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe Im wrong here, but from my point of view Lawrence does not know about the "rubbing nose = wolf kiss" aspect, since he didnt get what Horo was referring to in the OVA. And if you watch that scene in the OVA again, where Horo imagines Lawrence giving her a "nose rubbing", it looks different imo. Here he pauses after touching her lips. He gives her a short (but tender) kiss, as if to tell her "kick me as hard as you can, I dont care, I still love you from the bottom of my heart".
(*sing* She's a mean mean wolf, but she's my my wolf *sing*)

Oh Man.... I was waiting for that "smacker" since episode 4 of the first season, when that "half kiss" took place. YES YES YES....WOOOHOOOO...... GET ON UP PEOPLE.... TIME TO DANCE! :D

Rethice said:
I didn't think it was possible, but I enjoyed this season even more than the first... Lets hope the third keeps up the high standards!

You are not alone! ^^


BUT, the thing that nearly destroyed the mood for me throughout the episode was the quality of the animation. It often seemed "unfinished" to me. That was the biggest disappointment. i.e. I would have loved to see a nice animated kiss like at the end of Toradora. T_T

The story on the other hand is above reproach for me. Not much to complain at all. This two postings from another forum did the best roundup imo:

Positive:


Negative:



Both of them have a point there. That are the "Pros" and "Cons" of this season. No doubt. Its just that every viewer has to decide for him/herself if the sometimes convoluted and undramatic story is compensated by the shining main couple and their magic moments.



I would like to give this 10/10, but due to the lack in quality its only a.... .... *sigh*... ...dammit, I know its not logical, but the show still is:

10/10

All Hail to the Tail!
(Maybe.....but thats only a vague theory.... maybe, I am a fanboy for this show) :P


Aionic said:

I don't know what the 9-10/10 people are taking but I want some of it.

I LOLed..... sorry, but I wont share. :P



Read you at the threads of season 3.....

*FTGT grabs the translation of novel*
Modified by FTGT, Sep 30, 2009 2:11 PM
 
Sep 30, 2009 6:55 PM

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I CRIED, WAHHH

That was cute, all so worth it in the end. I can't wait for more, things got intense and I loved it. <3
 
Oct 1, 2009 9:35 AM
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Whew.. Frostii's anti-Lawrence bias really comes across in episode 12 doesn't it? It's like they are actively trying to make him look bad. I wonder who is more correct? If Mazui's subs truly are more literal and "accurate", then Frostii's are starting to look like a parody by comparison.. (not that I didn't enjoy them)
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Oct 1, 2009 1:19 PM
 
Oct 1, 2009 11:57 AM

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I'm kinda surprised it has such a high score. I was really bored during this season. Guess I'm with the minority. :P
 
Oct 1, 2009 1:23 PM

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Grimmm said:
I'm kinda surprised it has such a high score. I was really bored during this season. Guess I'm with the minority. :P


I'll admit it wasn't incredibly exciting, no where near as exciting as season 1. Guess it was just a build-up to the romance.
 
Oct 2, 2009 7:56 AM

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wow a really nice ed. it was a really good serie. it had a lot of moments where i thought it cant be a happy end. really a nice pair up. 9/10 for me i dont mind a third season


 
Oct 2, 2009 11:31 PM

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Kinda confusing last few eps, but I enjoyed them nonetheless. Hopefully we'll get a third season to wrap things up.

Not nearly as epic as season one, but fine in its own right.
7.7/10


 
Oct 3, 2009 3:40 PM

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Great, now that I've finished this I got to wait however long they take to come out with a 3rd season... patience is not something i am very good at here!
 
Oct 6, 2009 3:45 PM

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Lame, cheesy, boring.

1st season was so much better.
 
Oct 11, 2009 3:23 AM

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It lacks the charm and chemistry the first season had.

With that said, the atmosphere of the original season translated well.

It was OK, but I still prefer the first season.
 
Oct 12, 2009 10:08 AM

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In my opinion this season should be re-aired with more episodes like Haruhi did. It felt unfinished and incomplete but it was really, really good. 12 episodes just wasn't enough.
 
Oct 13, 2009 11:36 AM

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vinesage said:
and, who would have thought, the opening is the ending. :-)
Whoah, it is! Didn't notice that. This ending was good. Poor Lawrence had to be battered around by women. Dang, Abe's scary. Too bad though, I liked her ): So much for that so-called 'kiss'. Season 3!!
 
Oct 13, 2009 11:26 PM
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SFW's subs of this ep are finally out, and I have to say that either theirs or Mazui's are my preferred subs for the season. Frostii's are almost as good, but they portray Lawrence as having less confidence and a strangely "cruel" vibe that makes this season less bearable to me. It seems odd to downplay and trivialize his character's growth while such pains were obviously taken to show that Horo has become unstable... I wonder if that's why some people didn't like the season as much as others?
 
Oct 16, 2009 2:36 AM
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soundofsilence said:
In my opinion this season should be re-aired with more episodes like Haruhi did. It felt unfinished and incomplete but it was really, really good. 12 episodes just wasn't enough.

what? and have another endless eight? i think we know the horrors that'll lead us to

now i can read some moontalk, who is this Ami person who played holo? what else has she done?
 
Oct 17, 2009 1:56 PM

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I dont like the ending.I think they shoulda got the money back and left the city in the ending credits
 
Oct 17, 2009 3:14 PM

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FINALLY! LAWRENCE SAID I LOVE YOU TO HORO! Wonder how their relationship would go in S3 after Lawrence confessed. Did they even kiss? The figure doesn't look like a kiss. It's like Lawrence was whispering something to Horo, lol.

Damn you Abe, you backstabber pussy. I hate backstabbers.

Although there was no wolf form in this series, I enjoyed watching Lawrence and Horo together. I'm fine with that.

Waiting for S3, 10/10 this episode, 10/10 for the entire series.
Really enjoyed their adventures. :D
Modified by Moonfrost, Oct 17, 2009 5:45 PM
 
Oct 17, 2009 3:25 PM
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Moonfrost said:
Did they even kiss?


Not this again ;)

I still say he was just giving her a proper tease, and making it obvious that he's not kidding (she still has to clearly reciprocate). Also, he probably had blood in his mouth.. that might put a damper their first real kiss. Not to mention that he has good reason to be a little timid, given that she's hit him twice in this scene and could very well throw him out the window if she felt so inclined ;)
 
Oct 17, 2009 5:03 PM

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Great Ending!!!
Lawrence finally said that he loves her!!!
I also think that wasnt a kiss but i hope to see a decent kiss in season 3(season 3 is already confirmed?)


 
Oct 17, 2009 5:47 PM

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Although I didn't understand much of those "merchant conversations", Horo, herself, was enough for me to give this Anime a 10.

LOVE YOU HOLO!
If they end it this way, I would get disappointed since we didn't even get to see her hometown and the bear.

The novel and the manga are still ongoing so the chances for a season 3 would be high. Stopping it would hurt the directors and producers since the show got a decent ratings.
 
Oct 20, 2009 7:55 AM

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So Lawrence saw Horo's plan and ruinde it..nice
Lawrence said:
I Love You

Ah finally ^^

Well their journey still continued, i'll be waiting for the next season, if they plan to create it..

Thanks for the series, it gave me a whole new experience, meet you next season
 
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