Black Butler
| Where it originated and if you want more detailed info. http://forums.blackbutler.net/showthread.php?3122-The-Two-Ciels-Theory The 2 Ciels' Theory supposes there being two physical Ciels, probably twins. Or a body double. Older brother (real Ciel Phantomhive) - the cheerful and bright boy who we see in flashback scenes - rightful heir to the Phantomhive house, Lizzy's fiance - stabbed to death by cultists on the sacrifice altar - we see him in these flashbacks: Ch10 Ch31 Ch34 Ch58 Younger brother (current Ciel Phantomhive) - our bratty Young Master - had bad asthma in his childhood - survived and made contract with Sebastian - took on the identity of his brother for whatever reason - we see him in these flashbacks: Ch28 Ch31 Ch40 Ch58 And we see both of them in: Kelvin's flashback Ciel's flashback Ch54 Ch90 Side Story "That butler, nursing" (p7-22 real Ciel and p23-25 our Ciel) Two Ciels', one in the cage and one on the table. Are they brothers or just look alike? Look at Ciels' words "No, it's not the same. I'm outside of the cage" That means the one who got stabbed and died was not our Ciel but the other Ciel. "Ciel" hesitates and looks over to his brother/look alike then says his supposed name and says he will inherit the house and Sebastian laughs, does he know he is lying? Sebastian calls him a liar after Fake Ciel says he is Ciel Phantomhive. There are hints all the way back in chapter 2, so please don't say the author didn't plan it. "and then...", that refers to the real Ciel who died. Sebastian also laughs at "Ciel" in chapter 2. Timeline pic of the event.(click to enlarge) http://i.imgur.com/gflgpb2.jpg The third row is also evidence- "Ciel isn't here anymore. "I am Earl Phantomhive... I AM ME, AND I AM..." The price has been paid, so the other Ciel worked as a sacrifice to summon the demon. Sebastian looked around to find the most suitable person so just being the one who did the summoning won't make you have the contract. Out of pure selfishness he killed everyone there and survived then our Ciel took the other Ciel's identity to get revenge for him and all the ones they killed. Are they twins, brothers or maybe Vincent secretly had a child with another woman because they would say something if there were two children. |
ichii_1Oct 29, 2016 2:55 PM
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| "I don't need fake brothers." Too serious for a kid, referring to a body double perhaps. Look at the tray, two plates, two spoons, two bowls, two glasses, two identical teddies and a chessboard as if there have been two people in this room.  "The power you gained by sacrificing me." The people on that night already sacrificed the kid on the table to summon Sebastian so it cannot be Ciel himself talking with himself Sebastian also said the price has already been payed which means he could not have sacrificed a part of his own soul since the sacrifice was already done. They were sacrificed meaning the were all alive at some point. "Did you want me to forgive you?" "Not for anyone else!! But for myself!!" This picture shows the "anyone else" he was talking about before, why would he include himself in there when he was saying he is doing it for himself? The one pictured is another Ciel. The one behind the curtain and on Vincent are two different Ciels. And then Vincent saying "I'm sure you'll help them". This makes the most sense if his taking only about his children. In the flow of the conversation, I think the "them" including Rachel just seems awkward. |
ichii_1Feb 21, 2017 2:50 PM
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| The "Two Ciels' Theory" Version 2 at Blackbutler.net http://forums.blackbutler.net/showthread.php?8012-The-Two-Ciels-Theory-V2 Here is one of the posts. Ch.31-32 Kelvin's flashback scene, detailed explanation here http://forums.blackbutler.net/showthread.php?3122-The-Two-Ciels-Theory&p=414943&viewfull=1#post414943 *Possible interpretation: There are two boys at the party, the cheerful boy who greeted Baron Kelvin and the shy boy who hid behind Vincent: *the boys have different hair partings: Vincent's right or left side is always hidden by something and his posture suggests that there might be a second child: Vincent refers to Ciel in two ways, the 1st is "Ciel" the 2nd "this child", why would he call him that? Chapter 103 - the family tree linage has Vincent and his wife's branch split into 2 meaning 2 sons, it's not really clear but you can see it's definitely different than the previous branches splitting. Chapter 111 - Ciel is said to have the star Sirius as his divine protection. Sirius is also known for being a double star. A double star is a complex of two stars, spinning around one central mass. Sirius B (the second Sirius star) is a White dwarf - meaning, a DEAD star. And astrologists say that when it was "alive", was much bigger and brighter than Sirius A. Two stars, Two Ciels. Sirius used to be called a "dog star" in ancient times. Ciel is the queen's watchdog, has a protection of the dog star and is protected by Sebastian who Ciel named after his dog . Photographer reminiscing about Ciel which Ciel says isn't him and he is desperate not to let anyone see that photo which might have 2 Ciels. The candy here is referring to the Phantomhive ring OurCiel was implied to have stolen from RealCiels stomach the night Sebastian was summoned. Ciel looking at the burned photograph that has RealCiel on it. This also implies that the RealCiel did die which would mean he is in fact a zombie. |
ichii_1Jun 21, 2017 2:01 PM
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| I love this theory, but my mind=blown. In light of the recent CW episode, I am getting a very The Flash vibe with the whole taking on another's identity, and the other being dead. ***Major Spoiler for the Flash. Do not click unless you have been all caught up*** |
SnazzGaryApr 1, 2015 10:56 AM
| "Hey, assbutt!"—Castiel, Supernatural "Do you ever have a problem where you just don't know how to reply to an argument-- not because you don't know the answer, but you just don't where to begin? Like, the foundation of knowledge you'd need to impart to this person before you could even begin to drag them out of their sinkhole of ignorance would cost thousands of dollars, if it were coming from a University?" -MAL in a nutshell. |
| It's bs though.. while there are some things in consensus with those lines, it's really how you intercept them all. For example "I'm outside the cage" would be him standing outside this time while being in that room, so "things are different now".. "I'm not being held captive this time", "I can act this time". "I have the power now", etc.. As for the laughing in Chapter 2, according to the panels, Sebastian just thinks back how mightly Ciel stated his status of Earl, yet he asks the contractor to watch him sleep like a little child who asks his father to hold his hands in bed and sing a lullaby, which is another way for Sebastian to tease Ciel later and check his resolve during the story. "Would you like me to sing you a lullaby". As for the asthma, Rachel (his mother) also had it. Same with the other lines. This really proves nothing yet. No good author would leave hints this early in the series.. |
stefemanApr 20, 2015 6:10 PM
| This isn't updated is it? Here goes. Obviously spoilers, so don't look if you aren't caught up. 1.Memories of Baron Kelvin We see Vincent looking to his right side. There is a child on his left side, but we can’t see what is on his right. A similar situation, we don’t see his right side. There is still a kid, hiding behind Vincent. The kid is on the left side. We don’t see Vincent’s right side again, but when he asks Ciel to introduce himself first, he is touching his head with his right hand, so we can assume he is on Vincent’s right side. While real!Ciel introduces himself, our!Ciel keeps on hiding behind Vincent. His health is poor (asthma). According to this great person, the next panel says “Is that you, Ciel??” instead of “Oh Ciel!!!” According to them, it doesn’t say “Ciel asked to come along.” but “This child wanted to come along” Also, they made this great picture. This panel says "those three", but it’s hard to believe, that the Baron meant Klaus. Also, Klaus is faded out and Vincent is looking and reaching his hand to his left side. To summarize, the prevailing theory is: Vincent had two sons–the real Ciel Phantomhive, and his twin. Our!Ciel is not the true Ciel, as foreshadowed and hinted at heavily throughout the series. The true Ciel was sacrificed to Sebastian, and the one who summoned Sebastian was our!Ciel, who then took true!Ciel’s place. (From here, I don’t know if it’s the prevailing theory, but what I’m going with, with the addition of the information from c93) To cope with the loss of his brother, the true Ciel, our!Ciel likely took in true!Ciel’s personality and name into his own to form a split personality. This is a trope seen in stuff like Tsubasa (Fai and Yuui–name only, really), Bate’s Motel (Norman and his mother), etc. Two alternative ideas: a) The true Ciel is the current one, and the one that died was our!Ciel. To cope, the true Ciel took in our!Ciel, and the active personality for most of the series was our!Ciel, which may be just an imitation. Or… b) There was only ever one Ciel, and the hints were just red herrings. Ciel created another, stronger, darker personality inside him to live by, and that’s our!Ciel. Sometimes, like in G-Senjou no Neko (another series with multiple personalities and supposed brothers), this type of trope is resolved when the personalities merge into one. It’s possible the resulting Ciel will be the merge between the personality of true!Ciel and our!Ciel. Another personality is that true!Ciel fades. Also, this theory is a rather radical and only my own (so far as I know of), but what if our!Ciel’s absorbtion of true!Ciel’s personality into his own isn’t a result of psychological trauma, but because of the contract embedded into his eye? What I’m saying is, what if the contract carried over true!Ciel? We’re not very well informed of how Faustian contracts work in this manga, and it may only be an exception in their case. I’m not very serious about this theory, especially since true!Ciel was most likely consumed, but it’d be interesting. I believe that Ciel isn’t currently afraid of Sebastian, so much as being terrified of the reminder of his sins. So it’s not because of being traumatized by the mass killing or because Sebastian did something awful to him. (At first when Senapii showed me that thread, I didn’t buy it because most of them were so far-fetched, but it got more difficult to deny as the story progressed.) 2. Memories of the Cage First, the panel says “Who summoned the demon…?”. Second, Sebastian is looking for the summoner. As a demon, he should know who summoned him directly (or?) He says that “the price to cross the river has been paid”, while licking over his lips. I think this picture says more than thousand words. Theory: “You have given a big sacrifice.” - words towards real!Ciel “Now it’s your choice” - words towards our!Ciel A demon won’t give anyone the choice. Unless the price for Sebastian to cross the river has already been paid. (The price - a soul, what else). So maybe he has devoured real!Ciel’s soul, after being summoned by him, and then he directed his attention to our!Ciel. Sebastian never said he wouldn’t save our!Ciel if he didn’t make a contract with him. He simply gave him the chance to make a contract with him as well (?). our!Ciel’s wish is power - the power to take revenge on the ones, who did this to them. What would be real!Ciel’s wish then? I guess he asked Sebastian to save our!Ciel, before dying and being devoured by Sebastian. There are many panels, where we see two Ciels, the one in the cage and the other one - being sacrificed. The next three panels tell us more than one million words. A faded out guy, being sacrificed in the background. our!Ciel in the cage, while a look-alike (real!Ciel) is being gragged away. (Pay attention how their hairs are being parted). our!Ciel, remembering the same guy, being sacrificed (again.) our!Ciel, hesitating to say his name our!Ciel, hesitating to say his name Nr.2 (while looking at the alter, where real!Ciel has been sacrificed) our!Ciel’s recent memories Since those are our!Ciel’s memories, we can assume, that he is the one, holding him himself on the bars. real!Ciel takes his hand and tries to comfort him. Since his mouth is being covered, he can’t scream “Ciel”. The one calling his name is the person, so remained in the cage (our!Ciel) 3. Lizzy’s reaction Lizzy & our!Ciel don’t seem to share the same memories. My theory - Lizzy was (obviously) engaged to real!Ciel. He was the one, who used to spend so much time with her. our!Ciel didn’t so out often, so probably they didn’t know each other that well. She seems irritated and our!Ciel is bluffing (obviously, because of his nervousness). 4. Sebastian’s reaction Normally, people don’t put their own names in quotation marks. Also, saying the ring is the proof, that he is the head of the household, but also saying he doesn’t care about it and throwing it away don’t fit and don’t make much sense. Sebastian seems shocked as our!Ciel says the name. Later, he is laughing at his words. Sebastian, calling our!Ciel a liar, after he refers to himself as Ciel Phantomhive. our!Ciel telling Sebastian, that he didn’t go out often (asthma). 5.Other hints “It’s worth more than 2 people”. our!Ciel, talking about Ciel as a third person. our!Ciel, saying he isn’t worth protecting, but rather…? Idk the direct source yet, but it's from a tumblr user :>. |
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| Your theory sounds very convincing. But what about Madame Red's memories? Her flashback in chapter 10 page 30 show only one baby. But in chapter 10 page 32, you can see a child stand behind Madame Red. That's either Ciel or the second Ciel. |
ChocoKilluaMay 20, 2015 12:12 PM
| So I recently managed to buy the first artbook and more than anything, this pic makes me think there has to he sibling somewhere (it's among family pics of ciel's parent and tanaka, the servant, ciel and seb...) Because any phrasing or wording might depend on the translation |
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SolitaryDarkness said: So I recently managed to buy the first artbook and more than anything, this pic makes me think there has to he sibling somewhere (it's among family pics of ciel's parent and tanaka, the servant, ciel and seb...) Because any phrasing or wording might depend on the translation Twins-photo-pose.Defitnetly. |
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Mycelis_Tsukiyo said: SolitaryDarkness said: So I recently managed to buy the first artbook and more than anything, this pic makes me think there has to he sibling somewhere (it's among family pics of ciel's parent and tanaka, the servant, ciel and seb...) Because any phrasing or wording might depend on the translation Twins-photo-pose.Defitnetly. Doesn't it seem like that? Like twins holding hands? I mean one hand seems to be on the burned part of the picture. I'm also kinda guessing that if there was a twin, he would be the older one of the two and probably the one, who wasn't a scaredy cat and the "rightful" Earl Phantomhive after Vincent, I'm also guessing that most attention was paid to hom as well. |
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I think people are already discussing this in the chapter 106 thread ^^ (click "bbc code" after clicking "quick reply", it'll show you how to use a spoiler tag ^^) |
SolitaryDarknessJul 17, 2015 10:17 AM
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| Ah I love this theory. I saw most of the hints posted here, but there are a couple that I didn't see. Thought I'd add them in case there's anyone who hasn't read them before and is curious for more. Ciel's ring Fencing Lesson What's a fag? A little brother Hopefully I didn't post any clues a second time, I don't think I did. |
OmelettecatJul 21, 2015 1:02 AM
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Omelettecat said: Ah I love this theory. I saw most of the hints posted here, but there are a couple that I didn't see. Thought I'd add them in case there's anyone who hasn't read them before and is curious for more. Ciel's ring Fencing Lesson What's a fag? A little brother Hopefully I didn't post any clues a second time, I don't think I did. Didn't know these thanks, that part with the ring seems really nasty >_< but it does make sense if that's what it reads in seb's memory, most likely he did offer to take it out but our!ciel wanted to do it him self to steal his resolve for revenge or something like that.... I also like that little brother part, maybe our!ciel felt nostalgic being called like that again :) I dunno about that fenching lesson though ^^" when did that happen again? ^^" |
SolitaryDarknessJul 20, 2015 10:05 AM
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SolitaryDarkness said: Didn't know these thanks, that part with the ring seems really nasty >_< but it does make sense if that's what it reads in seb's memory, most likely he did offer to take it out but our!ciel wanted to do it him self to steal his resolve for revenge or something like that.... I also like that little brother part, maybe our!ciel felt nostalgic being called like that again :) I dunno about that fenching lesson though ^^" when did that happen again? ^^" Haha yeah the ring clue is kind of gruesome, maybe I should have put a warning? Sorry about that. But I agree, taking it out himself seems like a very Ciel thing to do. And I thought the brother clue was very sweet as well! Give me more cute Ciel little brother moments please Yana~ The fencing lesson is from chapter 58 when Lizzy is remembering Ciel being afraid of strong girls, during the Compania arc. But yeah haha that ones kind of a stretch gotta admit. |
OmelettecatJul 21, 2015 2:28 PM
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Omelettecat said: SolitaryDarkness said: Didn't know these thanks, that part with the ring seems really nasty >_< but it does make sense if that's what it reads in seb's memory, most likely he did offer to take it out but our!ciel wanted to do it him self to steal his resolve for revenge or something like that.... I also like that little brother part, maybe our!ciel felt nostalgic being called like that again :) I dunno about that fenching lesson though ^^" when did that happen again? ^^" Haha yeah the ring clue is kind of gruesome, maybe I should have put a warning? Sorry about that. But I agree, taking it out himself seems like a very Ciel thing to do. And I thought the brother clue was very sweet as well! Give me more cute Ciel little brother moments please Yana~ The fencing lesson is from chapter 58 (Here) when Lizzy is remembering Ciel being afraid of strong girls, during the Compania arc. But yeah haha that ones kind of a stretch gotta admit. nah, I'm not thaaaaat flimsy xD either way since he probably couldn't have taken it from vincent's body/hand, this seems to be a possibily :) they might happen if the lord phantomhive "that is still with us" ends up being ciel's (in theory) brother :D ahhhhh, had completely forgotten about that xD well, it still is a bit of a stretch, though, yeah xD |
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SolitaryDarkness said: nah, I'm not thaaaaat flimsy xD either way since he probably couldn't have taken it from vincent's body/hand, this seems to be a possibily :) they might happen if the lord phantomhive "that is still with us" ends up being ciel's (in theory) brother :D ahhhhh, had completely forgotten about that xD well, it still is a bit of a stretch, though, yeah xD Lol okay just wanted to be sure xD And yeah I always thought it explained it pretty well, honestly that entire kidnapping flashback is very confusing without the 2 ciel's theory. By the way, I was able to find an actual translated picture of Sebastian's cinematic record regarding taking the ring out Yesss that part had me so exicted. I was upset that the cliffhanger basically got ignored in ch 106, but I'm sure we'll find out what he means eventually~ Anything to give me cute moments hehe. But yeah just thought I'd include it lol, it does kind of look odd though anyway, definitely like something is there at least xD Also I remembered I had this too, just another small clue. You can't understand |
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Omelettecat said: SolitaryDarkness said: nah, I'm not thaaaaat flimsy xD either way since he probably couldn't have taken it from vincent's body/hand, this seems to be a possibily :) they might happen if the lord phantomhive "that is still with us" ends up being ciel's (in theory) brother :D ahhhhh, had completely forgotten about that xD well, it still is a bit of a stretch, though, yeah xD Lol okay just wanted to be sure xD And yeah I always thought it explained it pretty well, honestly that entire kidnapping flashback is very confusing without the 2 ciel's theory. By the way, I was able to find an actual translated picture of Sebastian's cinematic record regarding taking the ring out Yesss that part had me so exicted. I was upset that the cliffhanger basically got ignored in ch 106, but I'm sure we'll find out what he means eventually~ Anything to give me cute moments hehe. But yeah just thought I'd include it lol, it does kind of look odd though anyway, definitely like something is there at least xD Also I remembered I had this too, just another small clue. You can't understand It's still confusing even with the twin theory xD also I might be really wrong now, but didn't one of the kidnappers even say something about twins or "the two of them" and it being rare and something about that "raising the price"? Imight be confusing this with soemthijng else though,I still have to check the chapters for that part ^^ if it exists ^^" also ciel would really understand the feeling of being the second and the twin theory would give that scene a more intense impact. Ciel's lookis quite darkas well,it might be really for that reason or maybe just because he talks shit at him in general xD |
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SolitaryDarkness said: It's still confusing even with the twin theory xD also I might be really wrong now, but didn't one of the kidnappers even say something about twins or "the two of them" and it being rare and something about that "raising the price"? Imight be confusing this with soemthijng else though,I still have to check the chapters for that part ^^ if it exists ^^" also ciel would really understand the feeling of being the second and the twin theory would give that scene a more intense impact. Ciel's lookis quite darkas well,it might be really for that reason or maybe just because he talks shit at him in general xD Lol thats true xD lots of unanswered questions, and things that just don't really make sense. My main question has always been if 2CT isn't true, which is very possible, why doesn't Ciel have a scar on his stomach? I mean he was stabbed And do you mean this part? Haha it definitely exists. When I first read it I really didn't even notice anything was out of place, but it is kind of weird for someone to say something is worth more than 2 people if they're not talking about 2 people in the first place, so sounds like that's onto something :) Yeah it's more of something that'd just make you go "Oooooh I see" if the 2 ciels theory was true, as opposed to a clue itself I guess, since indeed Maurice was a little annoying jerk and annoying to speak to ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) |
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Omelettecat said: SolitaryDarkness said: It's still confusing even with the twin theory xD also I might be really wrong now, but didn't one of the kidnappers even say something about twins or "the two of them" and it being rare and something about that "raising the price"? Imight be confusing this with soemthijng else though,I still have to check the chapters for that part ^^ if it exists ^^" also ciel would really understand the feeling of being the second and the twin theory would give that scene a more intense impact. Ciel's lookis quite darkas well,it might be really for that reason or maybe just because he talks shit at him in general xD Lol thats true xD lots of unanswered questions, and things that just don't really make sense. My main question has always been if 2CT isn't true, which is very possible, why doesn't Ciel have a scar on his stomach? I mean he was stabbed And do you mean this part? Haha it definitely exists. When I first read it I really didn't even notice anything was out of place, but it is kind of weird for someone to say something is worth more than 2 people if they're not talking about 2 people in the first place, so sounds like that's onto something :) Yeah it's more of something that'd just make you go "Oooooh I see" if the 2 ciels theory was true, as opposed to a clue itself I guess, since indeed Maurice was a little annoying jerk and annoying to speak to ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Right, that's the one I was talking about! :D Because, I remember reading it and thinking it was an odd thing to say, even when talking about people trading,but it might have been though because it was a context or expression that I wasn't used to ^^" But if the two Ciels exist it might have, he might have said it as if two imply that one of them might be sold "as the two of them" saying something like he can play both siblings ^^ it is a bit far fetched though ^^" But yeah, Maurice was a bit of a pain xD |
SolitaryDarknessJul 25, 2015 8:36 AM
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SolitaryDarkness said: Right, that's the one I was talking about! :D Because, I remember reading it and thinking it was an odd thing to say, even when talking about people trading,but it might have been though because it was a context or expression that I wasn't used to ^^" But if the two Ciels exist it might have, he might have said it as if two imply that one of them might be sold "as the two of them" saying something like he can play both siblings ^^ it is a bit far fetched though ^^" But yeah, Maurice was a bit of a pain xD Ahh that's true, hopefully it's one you won't have to get too used to :o But you're right, I don't really know what someone would say in a situation like that either. But I think unless Ciel himself was just worth a ton since he was a noble and happened to be worth "more than two people," I still think it's very possible that guy would be talking about the twins. If they kidnapped both twins it'd make sense to sell them together. Do you mean like sell one twin as both twins? :o But yeah it's all pretty far fetched in general xD That's the main thing about the two ciels theory I think, even though a lot of the clues are kinda meh and could go either way, there's just so many that you have to consider them all as a whole |
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Omelettecat said: SolitaryDarkness said: Right, that's the one I was talking about! :D Because, I remember reading it and thinking it was an odd thing to say, even when talking about people trading,but it might have been though because it was a context or expression that I wasn't used to ^^" But if the two Ciels exist it might have, he might have said it as if two imply that one of them might be sold "as the two of them" saying something like he can play both siblings ^^ it is a bit far fetched though ^^" But yeah, Maurice was a bit of a pain xD Ahh that's true, hopefully it's one you won't have to get too used to :o But you're right, I don't really know what someone would say in a situation like that either. But I think unless Ciel himself was just worth a ton since he was a noble and happened to be worth "more than two people" I still think it's very possible that guy would be talking about the twins. If they kidnapped both twins it'd make sense to sell them together. Do you mean like sell one twin as both twins? :o But yeah it's all pretty far fetched in general xD That's the main thing about the two ciels theory I think, even though a lot of the clues are kinda meh and could go either way, there's just so many that you have to consider them all as a whole Let hope so :D but you're right, he might have meant ciel as a noble being worth more, come to think of it he probably would have said "two people" instead of "worth two people" if they were twins, unless one of them was kinda almost dead at that time. Yeah, kinda like to make more profit or something, like two in one ^^" It really is far fetched, it's just something I vaguely remembered as well xD I really hope things will get a bit more stirred up in that department soon, maybe someone actually stating that there might have been twins (someone from the characters I mean) speaking of those wouldn't tanaka actually know? O.o |
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SolitaryDarkness said: Let hope so :D but you're right, he might have meant ciel as a noble being worth more, come to think of it he probably would have said "two people" instead of "worth two people" if they were twins, unless one of them was kinda almost dead at that time. Yeah, kinda like to make more profit or something, like two in one ^^" It really is far fetched, it's just something I vaguely remembered as well xD I really hope things will get a bit more stirred up in that department soon, maybe someone actually stating that there might have been twins (someone from the characters I mean) speaking of those wouldn't tanaka actually know? O.o People have said it's technically been "mentioned" before according to certain translators. Like Madame red says "my lovely nephews" at one point and Joker says "The Earl along with his children were killed." But yes it'd be nice to see it more obivously mentioned at some point~ I think it's also worthy to mention that there was an entire two years after Ciel and Sebastian get back that we don't see :o Time skips ahead from 1888 to 1890. So if the twin was ever mentioned more, it likely more so then than now. And yeah I think Tanaka definitely knows. But since he always calls Ciel young master it's never obvious :o I think Madame Red and maybe Frances would know too, but that'd probably be it I mean aside from Sebastian obv And Lizzie may be slowly figuring it out. Klaus couldn't tell them apart in the first place so I'm not betting he realizes it xD |
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| Yeah, though all if that has been too vague for me now, because different translators do interpret things as they translate (naturally) to be able to make it sound fluently in english (or any other language) Madame Red though I's like to think at least liked them the same and I think she was just happy to see anyone alive after what happens, so I don't think we would have been able to distrinctly tell from her comments, just like you said with tanaka (I always love it when he kicks some ass btw xD), Francis is a good one, she wouldn't keep quite about it, though, would she? O.o because I'm assuming it would have most likely been the other ciel who was lizzie's fiance, lizzie I think already noticed that he was "somehow different" after the incident, I think? and well, I don't think Klaus really cares either way as long as they leave him alone xD You know, what a friend of mine said today about the picture? What if that was a picture of ciel and his dog o.O and it's just a huuuuge mean bait xD |
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| I forgot if it already has been posted and disappeared or if it never was posted, but... from the Green witch arc Watch yourself being stabbed, yo. from the SECOND CHAPTER:  the "and then.." seems to imply that he will be the next one, but it also coud mean that the last master of the rign was real ciel. Then there is always the possibility that Toboso read through her works again one day and noticed that some scenes could be used as foreshadowing for a twin so she went and retconned everything. Sebastian might bend the truth from time to time, but he never tells outright lies. He always calls our Ciel "Young Master" or "(Earl) Phantomhive", never by his first name. Is it because calling him Ciel Phantomhive would be a lie? |
Mycelis_TsukiyoDec 10, 2015 7:52 PM
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| Wow never even considered this. This theory is awesome I almost kinda want it to be true. |
Mycelis_Tsukiyo said: Then there is always the possibility that Toboso read through her works again one day and noticed that some scenes could be used as foreshadowing for a twin so she went and retconned everything. Nah, I believe she planned it all out before starting with it. Should the theory be confirmed anytime, the fact that the Ciel we know is not the actual Ciel Phantomhive, is a very crucial plotpoint that you can't just butt in in the middle of the story. From the clues above, it seems like she had left sublte hints here and there from the second arc already, so she must had planned this. I also believe that the theory will be confirmed and that it will be used at the very end, when Ciel will have achieved his goals, will have taken revenge and it's time to give Sebastian his soul. Something like "Welp, I can't give you my soul because I'm not the actual Ciel Phantomhive" which Sebastian will not be able to deny and therefore will not proceed to take his soul. Soemthing along these lines. But we'll see. |
| “In all things, the heart must take precedence. The heart rules over all things, and all things come from the heart.”  |
| If the theory is confirmed & she reveals Ciel had a twin it'd be a retcon, it was an established fact that Ciel was an only child who list his parents on his birthday. Now I don't know if she plans on using these inconsistent flashbacks for a potential reveal but either way it'd be a retcon because before the Circus arc nothing hinted at a deceased twin, more like the opposite. I don't believe in it, but assuming it's true, I hope she reveals it soon so I can drop the series. |
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| I also found another clue in chapter 103, page 22. Though it is a little bit too subtle and ti might be Toboso's mistake or did-not-care design. |
| “In all things, the heart must take precedence. The heart rules over all things, and all things come from the heart.” |
StarsOfRust said: What makes you say that? I agree with someone earlier that I think it's probably going to be revealed late in the manga, tho I don't think right at the very very end bc it would feel kinda cheap and I think she's a better writer than that. Then again I recall this so it could be that the big thing that moves the main story forward is the 2ct being confirmed.Hey, anyone get the feeling that the twin Ciel theory is gonna be confirmed in the blue sect arc? |
| Sorry for double posting, but this just occurred to me. So I've been bothered for a while by the end of chapter 108 (where Undertaker is pouring a fluid into Ciel's mouth), like, what is it, and that sort of thing. And then I was thinking, well it kind of bothers me too in that Sebastian doesn't even notice Undertaker's presence. Also, I find it cheap that Ciel just doesn't remember seeing him when he stirred. Well, what if Undertaker has the other Ciel? I mean look at this: Could just be artsy but the gears/designs in the corner of the bed strike me as odd. Could just be representative of Undertaker's machinations... or it could be telling that they're not in our Ciel's bedroom, but somewhere else. Everything is dark, save for the windows... could be to show that it's night time, but then again, why are the windows so bright then? Additionally, on the next page Ciel's eye is covered by his hand so obviously we don't see his contract symbol. Undertaker says it's too early for him to wake up, which if we think about in the context that this is (possibly) the other Ciel is very much more telling and makes a lot of sense. Maybe the fluid is repairing this Ciel's body from when it was stabbed. I'm sure that Ciel must have died then, but Undertake has revived him for whatever reason. |
| Honestly, my MIND is blown. wth Yana, I never picked up on these things until I read this thread. This is crazy, but it seems to legit to be false. The evidence is there. wow. |
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jocelyn123 said: dont you think lizzy would notice if he wast the "real ciel" Did you read Roth's post? Under #3 it explains that Lizzie is indeed shown to be suspicious of Ciel, and tests him during the egg hunt. When she asked him to find her egg first like it's a tradition it's clearly a lie, since at the end she says "This is the first time that I... made my own Easter egg." However Ciel went along with it, insinuating that he doesn't actually know about the past Easters at all. This fits well with the two ciels theory since the real Ciel would have spent more of Easter day with Lizzie. |
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| As for the latest chapter (ch124) we have some more possible clues to the "two Ciels theory". One with the family photographer, and one with Bravat at the end of the chapter. Under the spoiler: This also explains that the reveal may come sooner than we thought, maybe at the end of this arc. 2 clues (as far as I can see) in one chapter. That's too much considering the length of the series and the clues so far.. Where the Undertaker once mentioned that it was "still early for the Earl to wake up", it's been 20ish chapters passed after that scene. So.. Also Bravat says that it's all over now. So could it mean that the real!Ciel is healthy enough to wake up? I'm so excited to see the "real" story behind all these. :D |
| The lovely Nezushi in usericon is from zxs1103@dA |
| woaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah this is awesome i always wondered why ciel never had any scars on his stomach or anything although i always thought it possible he was having a nightmare over what could have been him, but was the person he saw sacrificed instead. this is really interesting omg |
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