Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ Episode 25 Discussion
Sep 21, 2009 11:45 PM
Sep 22, 2009 11:41 AM
Sep 22, 2009 12:20 PM
Sep 22, 2009 3:08 PM
@ noteDheros: your argumentations seem logic and are making sense and i can unterstand your point of view but still i have to disagree in some points.
For example your argumentation of what Mio's mother said. Like Menar said, her line doesn't count for Cal because those two lived under different circumstances. Well both of them may have had a "normal" life compared to Reiji and Elen but if you compared under which circumstances Cal, Mio and her mother have lived, it is the same like living in different worlds. I assume that Mio's mother never experience any violent, murder or whatever and Mio even less and like Mentar said, she was never part of the underworld. Cal on the other hand experience them all from the beginning and then seeing how her sister has being murdered right before her eyes, that is not realy a normal life in my eyes^^. And with that event you could say, she was stepping in the underworld already especially after she stole the money.
I'll explain Mio's mothers' words again: If Cal really loved Reiji, she would have recognized his longing to live a normal life and instead of dirty herself to be with him, do that. She didn't love him. She longed to stay under the protection of someone else's watch. Cal is simple.
In my opinion this argument ist not really correctly because if she didn't really love him, then his betrayal wouldn't effect her that much and she would/ could try to search for someone else who may protect her.
I claim to say that the more important one is to you, the stronger are the negativ feeling (like despair/ hatred) you will bear for that person, when this person betrays you.
What we get in the third arc is a Cal who focuses her cunning mind and talent at weapons as the third Phantom incarnation, with her only goal to destroy Reiji. She does not use this mind to deduce what happens during the events of the night that significantly changed her life. Although being very fond of Reiji, she never outright asks him what happened. Though she was told a couple of times by Lizzie that she and Reiji were trying to protect her, she is totally blinded by her bloodlust and eventually kills her.
I understand your point of view but i have to disagree.
I think she wasn't really blinded by her bloodlust, it was more by her hatred and despair. Driving by the hatred she decided to become the phantom (maybe with the intention to find him and ask him. You can't deny that by becoming the Phantom it would be very convenient for her. She would get all the information she needs to track him down.). She may have believed what Lizzie said to her before she was in Japan. This may also be one of her reason, why she didn't kill Reiji right off. But then what Reiji said to her after 2 years brought her hatred to the peak. Do you really think that she would still be able to believe Lizzie when Reiji was pleading for guilty?
Reiji made things worse. I had already stated that, but Cal had enough information on her side to question Reiji's circumstances, and ask for an explanation. She meets him a number of times, and never asks for an explanation.
You stated it yourself, Reiji made things worse, but i think you missed the point or didnt' take it into account that he also messed up her emotions. His betrayal was comfirmed by himself. There was no point in asking him anymore. She had information and she may have believed im him but he plead for guilty so she comes to the conclusion that her information were false and Lizzie may also lie to her.
Well all i wanted to say is, that i can understand what you are trying to say and your arguments are also making sense if you look it from your point of view. But like wakka said try to evaluate the situation or charater from different perspectiv. As far as i have read your post so far they are all from the rational, logical point of view.
If my arguments are not good or wrong please tell me =D
Also i apologize for my bad english and grammar, I will try my best write my arguments in a decent grammar and manner.
Sep 22, 2009 5:02 PM
Sep 22, 2009 7:42 PM
Sep 22, 2009 11:44 PM
Sep 23, 2009 12:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
wow......I usually try to read all of a topic before I post....but f* that WAY to much text for my liking...
Anyway I think this was a pretty good episode I still hate Drei but the alternate reality it flashed too made me relate Cal to Drei and it did make me a bit sad to see her go.
I miss Cal though.......I think I'll go through the VN now and get the Cal ending where she doesn't lose her mind and become psychotic Drei.
Close the world,
.txƎᴎ ɘht ᴎɘpO
Sep 23, 2009 1:30 AM
Sep 23, 2009 5:10 AM
Joined: May 2008
Much better than the previous episode, but overall just decent. I did like the way they showed what would have happened if Reiji and Cal had never been separated. I also thought that the final scene with Reiji and Cal was handled in the best possible way to portray their strong bond, that even after all that time apart was still there.
Anyway, I'm kind of ready for this series to end... because imo for the most part it has become incredibly mediocre, at least compared to where it started.
Sep 23, 2009 12:10 PM
Sep 23, 2009 1:01 PM
Sep 23, 2009 2:21 PM
The thing is that a lot of your disagreements are based wholly on specualation, and they run both ways. I think people who defend Cal in this instance give her way too much benefit of the doubt and totally ignore the fact that she is supposed to be a bright character capable of simple deduction and making choices of her own accord.
Well I agree with what you are saying, it is correct that I may sympahtisize with her a little bit too much and may ignore some facts. But I still think if one is controlled by his/ her emotion that person will not be able to deduct the correct reason and is easily manipulated. But all in all I can say is that I agree. You are right.
Cal was not being held as a hostage. She chose to be there. Reiji never held her against her will, and if I remember correctly, never even told her about becoming Phantom since she was already steeped in taking revenge against what's her names' murder. There is no comparison to be made. I see no reason to believe that Inferno was worried about Cal at all. They were already in pursuit of Reiji, and three days after the explosion, only SM was looking for her. Since she was only an apprentice, and never vetted, Cal could have gotten off scott free. This was yet another out for her to live a normal life. But that didn't happen. She chose to believe yet another stranger and join Inferno for real.
Well it makes sense what you are saying, but I still held on my theorie =D since it sounds interesting xD But there is still one point where I have to disagree. If she might not believed SM then there would be still the possibility that SM might let her kidnapped and makes her into Phantom by brainwashing her. This could be also an option because SM knew her (well according to what he said, maybe I missunderstood something^^)
No. Cal would have never accepted losing Reiji gradually. She has anger issues after this when she had every reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think she would have accepted Reiji trying to reject her. But now that's going into speculation about two characters (one of which would be totally out of character) so there's little point arguing.
You might be right she might not accept a rejection but she would not turn that way she was shown in the 3rd arc. She might protest at the beginning but I think that she would accept it later than.
You can't compare Cal's reactions to that of a normal girl, and then say she isn't a normal girl in another sentence. This is another problem that I think people who sympathize with Cal have, not admitting the fact that Cal is insane by the start of this third arc. She confronted Reiji during Mio's first and second dates, shortly after Mio's first date, and in the church twice. Not to mention a phone call. Not once did she ask him a single question. She wasn't looking for an explanation because she was obsessed with killing/being killed by Reiji.
I admit that she was insane blinded by her hatred with the beginning of the 3rd arc.
But then I could say that it is more a "normal" reaction of her for not asking for any explanation because people often tends to not ask for explanation when one is angry at someone. They throw their anger at first at that person by yelling or whatever. After their anger reduced by the time they will ask for an explanation or them come to the conclusion that they missunderstood each other or their reaction was exaggerated (that is something I often observe in my enviroment) and like you later said she was insane, maybe because of that insanity her anger didn't reduced by the time so she could not ask him because she is still in the state of throwing her anger at him. But I still don't think that she was really obsessed with killing/ being killed by him. I assume that it was more of an excuse to search for him, like it was being mentioned in that alternative world scene, she said that she would follow/ search for him even if she has go to hell. But all in all I have nothing to oppose your arguments.
Here's what those two possibilities hinge on: 1) Believing in Reiji and Lizzie who wanted a better life for her, and moving on. 2) Believing a total stranger who only has something to gain by taking her in. She trusted SM more than Reiji's feelings for her, and that's why I don't think she loved him. She never asked for an explanation, so that only solidifies that for me. She was intent on living a short, lonely life, destroying everything around her and being used by Inferno, rather than to create a life of her own. I don't believe that Reiji betrayed her. He saw the house that he told her not to leave from blow up. He got back the girl he actually loves, and since they had to be on the run, left. He betrayed her by lying/failing to disclose about Ein, but that's it. There was little, if any malicious intent. If there is anyone to be labled with betrayal, it's Cal. She wanted Reiji dead and only pushed him into a corner. This goes back to my thought that people want to absolve Cal of all her actions (or lack thereof) because of her immature delusions and having to finally face reality.
Nothing to oppose, just one thing, there is still the possibility that SM would let her kidnapped to make her into Phantom like I said before =D He may be or was interested in her since she was an apprentice of Reiji.
The leap was totally on purpose, it's the second one in the show. My biggest thing about the leap is that it leaves such a huge gap in a character that wasn't really explored, and doesn't venture to explore the character unil she's drunk and hallucinating. The most work they did on Cal as a character was in this episode, but it was quite empty because we see her talking to people she killed and running at the mouth, in a hollowly sympathetic manner. Some people really buy into the the sympathy that is shown on her here, and then remembering her in the second arc, want to side with her despite all of her crazy actions. Reiji is to blame, Scythe Master is to blame, but Cal holds the brunt of it.
Well I did not say that I blame SM or Reiji or someone just because Cal ended that way and ended up being killed by Reiji. (Nevertherless I still wished that it would end up in a different way like he being killed =D that would be for my taste a nice bad ending (muahaha) xD)
I just said that his attitude wanting a normal life but killing in order to survive contradict. That is something that in my opinion does not fit together. But I have to wait for the last episode to make solid opinion of him.
All in all you convinced me ;) thought I will still held on some of my theses so it would be much more fun for the future :D
Modified by Tomoharu, Sep 23, 2009 2:38 PM
Sep 24, 2009 2:53 AM
Sep 24, 2009 10:16 AM
Sep 24, 2009 1:49 PM
Sep 25, 2009 4:25 AM
Sep 25, 2009 5:09 AM
Sep 25, 2009 5:35 AM
Oh my gawd, so much discussion over really simple anime. I dunno, maybe VN had more depth, but without knowing that.. Well, it's still best action theme I've seen ever, but idolizing and putting it too high really doesn't suit it. It's not NGE ffs
please don't say that. people have different taste, opinion, point of view and standards when watching animes. Just because you like NGE and think highly of it doesn't mean that everyone automatically agree with you. I have met enough people who dislike NGE. I have watched NGE and I liked, it was very interesting but I do not say that people who idolize this anime are idiots and if people think that this anime is not simple like you claim then it is their opinion and their right to think so.
You may not had any ill intention but your post sounds ignorant and arrogant by saying "It's not NGE ffs"
Sorry, but that would just be stupid. For one thing Cal would have just shot him if he missed her. Besides Cal needed to die because she was just so whiny. You didn't see Ein constantly bitching about how she had been experimented on, drugged so much that she had no memory, forced to be the puppet/plaything of some demented german scientist and probably raped and humiliated in bizarre ways no sane mind would ever want to imagine. Cal on the other hand cannot forgive Ein and Zwei for running off together when Zwei thought she was dead.
sorry to say that DrHouse but you are wrong. you can't compare those two with each other.
Ein has been force to be become a puppet, that is correct and the result is that she lost her emotion and her own will. If one does not have any emotion one cannot complain, whine because you don't feel disgust, hate or sadness or whatever. If her emotion has not being erased than she might also be whiny like Cal but than she wouldn't be Phantom.
Cal's emotion on the other hand has not being erased. So she is able to be whiny because Reiji and Elen run off together etc.
Puppets do not feel and do not complain but human do.
Modified by Tomoharu, Sep 25, 2009 6:13 AM
Sep 25, 2009 6:25 AM
Sep 25, 2009 7:21 AM
I understand what you are saying i agree. Philosophy/psychology animes like NGE have more room for discussions and the story itself is one of the best that i have seen so far^^
but it's still the viewer's opinion to think if an anime is that deep and worth 100post over one ep regardless of the genre.
well thats my opinion^^
Sep 25, 2009 3:43 PM
Sep 29, 2009 10:23 AM
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Jan 8, 2010 12:52 PM
Jan 10, 2010 7:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Hmm... a lot of reply... but I guess the ep itself worth a reply like this.
I myself is like Drei / Cal, I must admit. But I think the episode is right to what it's must. I mean, even Drei is dead, but she died in the hand of the one she really looking into. And somehow I must agree with noteDhero, for Cal is still egoistic and childish ^^a Th'x anyway for bring me some new view of this anime, all the one who already make a debate here.
I like it when Drei meet 3 ghosts of the past.
Jan 21, 2010 2:56 AM
Feb 21, 2010 8:36 AM
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May 12, 2012 11:57 AM
May 22, 2012 10:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Wow, Cal was my favorite character and they just wrote her off the show like that... Was expecting a happy ending for her, at least. Nevertheless, this episode was wonderful.
What can you do, they were animating Elen's ending from the Visual Novel instead of Mio's or Cal's (Cal only dies in Elen's ending)
However, I really didn't understand the vision Reiji had when him and Cal were still in LA and in a car. Explanations would be nice XD
He or/and Cal were imagining how it could have been if Reiji returned to the apartment and found Cal (in the game, should Reiji find Cal after the apartment is destroyed, you get the ending where he and Cal start traveling the USA, running from Inferno and their Phantom Ein... tough it might also be an Easter Egg for Cal's True End).
You can see other endings from the game here
Modified by Nayrael, May 22, 2012 10:31 AM
Jul 10, 2012 2:59 PM