Kara no Kyoukai 7: Satsujin Kousatsu (Part 2) Episode 1 Discussion

f0ut said:
Woh, how to butcher a great show in only 2 hours. Did you guys really like this movie? They left all the yandere

LostHanyou said:

Possible spoiler for another type-moon/nasu work

VictimOfFate said:
Really disappointing overall, this pretty much runed the interesting conflict about how the truth about Shiki's connection to murders will affect Mikiya's relationship with her. I mean, everything seemed to be building up to that and in the end we get blatant moralizing and pretentious philosophy over such a simple message.

ronri said:

The idea is that Shiki always had it in her to become a killer (FYI Shiki is actually mentally unstable and borderline insane), it's her attachment and days spent with Mikiya that allowed her to soften up and resist her murderous urges.

ronri said:

The revelation in which she is shown to be innocent due to Lio actually committing the original murders further emphasizes this point.

ronri said:

When Mikiya said "he wouldn't forgive her", it wasn't a question and test of morality, it was to see if Shiki truly cared about their deep connection. We already know that Mikiya is willing to forgive Shiki for anything she does, so that statement was him simply testing her and their relationship.

ronri said:

Why would she force herself to act differently (hunt Lio on her own without help or assitance from Mikiya and Touko) if she desired that? Why is she still trying to prove that she's not a homicidal maniac by killing a homicidal maniac? (see the contradiction here?)

ronri said:

The idea behind Shiki's murderous urge and her connection to Mikiya wasn't one of philosophical morality (it was completely justified to kill Lio, even the movie says so), it was one of self-denial and acceptance what Shiki truly wanted (contrary to what some might think).

ronri said:

Shiki was on the brink of becoming a true killer (and willingly so) when she decided to hunt down Lio. If anything, it was Mikiya's words that saved her from becoming a killer, when by all means, she should've become one given her mental state.

VictimOfFate said:
I think that was left somewhat open, but it doesn't matter if Shiki or SHIKI murdered them or not. Mikiya wants to believe in the Shiki in front of him without regard to her past sins and wants to keep her from straying. Being in denial about Shiki's connection to the murders just means he believes Shiki can save herself from the fate of a murderer no matter what she has done in the past because she truly wants a normal life.

VictimOfFate said:
The two of them didn't even have that much of a strong connection back when the first of the first murders happened so they wouldn't have been that much of a test on their relationship.

VictimOfFate said:
He knew she cared about their connection, he uses it to remind Shiki of what she loses if it happens. It's not a self-serving test to see if she loves him back enough.

VictimOfFate said:
I don't think anyone would mistake those for murderous impulses caused by her origin. They are caused by her emotions, not the joy of killing, and killing in this case is a means to protect her new life. It's a conflict (other than because murder is wrong) either because denying all kinds of will to kill is a symbol of the relationship between Shiki and Mikiya, or because Mikiya fears killing may awaken Shiki's origin

VictimOfFate said:
I agree it's obviously less important than the role of murder in Shiki's character development and in the love story between her and Mikiya though. Moralization was just try hard and you become happy, and pretentious philosophy was that usual nasuverse crap, particularly 'you can only kill once' and the difference between murder and slaughter. It's pointless and lacks content or insight but it's glorified just to appear cool.

VictimOfFate said:
Shiki was not going to become a true killer (one who stays true to her origin) rather than protecting her new life. She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger. Her origin would always lead her to pick murder as the alternative to anything, but her personality can control it. This is different, it's a conscious choice that is different from failing to resist her urges since it's the only thing she could have done. Like I said earlier, it becomes a conflict in this context either because never killing anyone is an important symbol for her clean start after coma and relationship between her and Mikiya, or because killing may awaken her origin

ronri said:

It was NEVER left open. Mikiya proved that it was all Lio's doing. Lio tried to lie by setting up Shiki/SHIKI as the killer, when in fact it was all his own doing.

ronri said:

That in itself is very much debatable. A lot of their deep connection is implied, not spoken, you tend to forget that Mikiya and Shiki themselves (especially Shiki) started out as introverted characters. The fact that they could act so naturally towards each other over time was enough indication of Shiki's character growth.

ronri said:

I don't think you're getting this. Shiki (even the novel emphasizes this) was actually on the brink of murdering for the first time after such a long time. The fact that it wasn't out of impulse just shows how emotionally unstable she truly was at that time. She was willing to actually throw her life away after murdering Lio and even potentially abandoning Mikiya (again they made this more obvious in the novel). It was Mikiya's words that reminded her of what she always had and wanted to protect which allowed her to abandon her pursuit of Lio at the end (until Lio showed that he "killed" Mikiya...)

ronri said:

[To say that it lacks content or insight is just unfair as the philosophy used was truly needed to avoid the plot holes.

ronri said:

I think you're missing the point again. At the time when she was just pursuing Lio, she was actually willing to kill Lio out of cold blood (the novel emphasizes her cruel and apathetic thoughts much more unlike the silent treatment she was giving in the movie). This is what most people didn't realize, in that Shiki only decided to act rationally during the final sequences of the film thanks to being reminded by Mikiya's words. That's why when she killed Lio she was able to maintain her current mindset, because her motives were different than before. Yes she wanted to protect Mikiya before, but it never dominated her thoughts as she was more furious of the very existence of Lio as he was the one who pretty much drove SHIKI to his death.

victimoffate said:

She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger.

ronri said:

Mikiya's point is the psychological impact (that committing murder) will have on Shiki. Shiki didn’t have to go hunt Lio if it was just to stop him or punish him, she could have given the authorities the information or even asked for assistance from Touko and Mikiya (like what she usually would've done) instead, she WANTS to kill him, and Mikiya knows she won’t be the same if she crosses that line.

ronri said:

The point is not that killing is *absolutely wrong*, but that Shiki has unique circumstances that when triggered (i.e. actually killing someone) might actually send her off the brink into stab-happy homicidal mania (it's no lie to say that Shiki is actually borderline insane, even Nasu has referred to her as "tsungire" which he sees as a loose variation of the yandere archetype).

ronri said:

That Shiki actually didn’t devolve to follow her own origin (Death/Nothingness) after actually going through with killing someone had to do with her growth as a person and attachment to Mikiya. By all accounts, she should have. It was her connection to Mikiya that allowed her to remember and think differently in comparison to when she was hunting down Lio out of cold blooded revenge.

ronri said:

Now, part of the reason why I said the 5th movie is better than the 7th is that the 5th movie lays out the intended message much more clearly. In the 7th film, much of the intended message wasn't conveyed clearly enough as a lot of their thought process wasn't shown in the film, relying on deceiving dialogue and subtle expressions instead.

This made the 7th film seem much more average and harder to understand as it requires the viewer re-watch the film just to fully grasp the whole weight of the situation. By all means the filmmakers should've accounted for this, which is why I said before that I find the 5th movie to be a better-constructed film overall where in the novel, it was fairly obvious that the 7th chapter/movie should've been the best one due to the amount of content that they actually fleshed out for Shiki, Mikiya and Lio which sadly wasn't emphasized as much in the film version.

VictimOfFate said:

I must have missed some moment then, because I never saw any conclusive proof, only Mikiya's claim that Lio is lying

VictimOfFate said:
I don't really see how I don't get it since that's the thing I wrote, except more analytical. She is burdened because killing Lio destroys the symbol of interdependency and trust between them, and then there's a high risk it awakens her origin. I made one big mistake though; I confused Touko's definition of murder where your emotions overboil and you to momentarily lose reason with slaughter, which is cold-blooded and calculated. This is because although Shiki's action is a combination of both; she was not acting totally spontaneously and without reason when she went to kill Lio, yet she was affected by extreme emotion. But I agree that the action itself can cause her origin to awaken.

VictimOfFate said:
That's my biggest issue with it. A pretty baseless philosophy is assumed by everyone like an universal truth and it's somehow one of the most important plot devices.

VictimOfFate said:
Since I don't remember Shiki really asking for assistance earlier other than spare arms, I pinned not relying on others on her both her origin and proud personality. But you've read the novels so I believe you are right she would usually ask for help and it made things more clear to me.

VictimOfFate said:
Man, the way I phrased things must have been really awkward for you to think I didn't understand anything.

VictimOfFate said:
I completely agree. The content was there in the 7th movie, but the narrative strayed to completely wrong parts at times at the expense of internal characterization which I think would be helpful to understand some of Shiki's subtlest motivations and emotions. I liked Shiki's character, it's a really interesting concept although it relies on pretty weird Nasuverse stuff that I don't really like.

VictimOfFate said:

I think I've heard that the movies are primarily targeted at already existing fans of the novels instead of everyone. It assumes the audience to know some things in advance to fully understand it. For example I don't think I would have understood some of the stuff about Araya's plans if I hadn't read Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime. The same assumtion of some familiarity of characters and their relationships might have been what led them to convey some things using only atmosphere and gestures.

ronri said:
@SeraVerte:

I love this movie as it delves more into the human drama between Shiki, Mikiya and Lio, and it even strays away a bit from its own universe despite introducing new concepts (like fully unleashing your Origin). Still, from the sounds of it, it's pretty understandable why you didn't like it as it didn't seem to strike your preferences in where this movie could have headed (whereas for me it hit it right on the mark).While I do agree that Mikiya's survival seemed out of nowhere, I don't think it was that far-fetched (I have many reasons for this). However I do think that having a sad ending would actually have felt more like a cop-out as it would've felt rather cliched (yes, for once in a series like this, I think that a sad ending would've been jarringly cliched). So I was pleasantly surprised that it went for a happy ending as I thought it's what the characters really deserved (especially considering the dark tone of the whole series and Type-Moon in general).

Zero said:
I really was not impressed with this one, visually and sound wise, yes it was quite a treat but I found some of the dialogue laughable. The fact that Mikiya might really be dead never had an effect on me, so that tells me a lot about how this series managed to develop its characters, also I found Mikiya to be so naive at times that it borders stupidity, even so, I liked some of the interaction between him and Shiki.

So overall, the producers were quite ambitious with this one but in the end everything was kinda hit and miss, they tried too much to shock us, and so I felt that logic and realism were forgotten.

ronri said:


Hmmm not too sure about that one. Depends on what you were watching. The fansubs done for Movie 7 is almost laughable to point that some characters almost seemed to have mood swings or incoherent, not to mention they even mistranslated some parts whereas the retail subs actually did a really great job. This surprised me as the fansubs did a pretty good job with the past couple of films yet the quality went down so much for the final film (which pisses me off as it gives the wrong impression to people about the film).

Regarding logic and realism. Logic-wise everything should've made sense, even Mikiya's decisions. This is partly the fault of the fansubs (if it was the version you watched) as it actually screwed up some of the key conversations and ended up making Mikiya look like the idiot of the story (whereas the one at fault is actually meant to be Shiki and the retail subs make it far more obvious). As for realism, I'm curious which aspects bothered you about it? Lio shouldn't count because the guy was practically influenced by the supernatural....

Zero said:

One example of dialogue that I found bad:
Mikiya finds Shirazumi's apartment and even if Shirazumi is into drugs and has clearly just lost an arm, Mikiya says:
"Shirazumi, are you all right? You're not acting normal."

Also, I don't remember drugs being a major theme in any anime so I do congratulate them from trying something that is kinda taboo even for anime, but I think they could have worked a lot more on the scene with Mikiya in the alleys looking for that special drug, I think they intended that scene to be disturbing but for me it wasn't anything.

Then there's the effect of drugs, on Mikiya, supposedly he ingested a fatal dose, also his leg suffered quite an injury before being stabbed in the eye, yet he only remembered it hurts once he got over those stairs.

btw, I know one of the reasons why I did not think much of this last part, it's been quite some time since I watched the other 6 parts but even so, I still find this 7th part to be quite flawed compared to most of the other parts.

Feorg said:
While the concept was influenced by Buddhism, the fact that the origin was consumption (or for other people, something else) made it seem like people have as origin negative feelings which then get repeated. That was actually closer to Christianity with the idea of Original Sin.