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Poll: Kara no Kyoukai 7: Satsujin Kousatsu (Part 2) Episode 1 Discussion


Jan 5, 2011 12:27 PM

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KnK is excellent in many ways and I believe it accomplished what it aimed. It is a masterpiece, I think. Even though for me, I just can't understand why even here, a happy ending and the ultimate motif love. It's like the opposite is a taboo, even though I understand why everyone seems to prefer the other ones. For me this is what it makes it not perfect, but that's just me.
I think it's brilliant for what it is after all.
 
Jan 14, 2011 5:06 PM

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I agree with those that think the kiss would have been out of place, it would have been too much. Them hugging, and Shiki later wanting to hold his hand forever was perfect.

Drool freak was gross though, but part of me felt kind of sorry for him, but not sorry enough to be sad when Shiki dispatched him-it was self defense in any case even without the revenge factor because she thought he killed Mikiya.

I am glad it tied up some of the loose ends, maybe they will address more of those in the Epilogue in February.

 
Jan 20, 2011 9:47 AM

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was great 8/10 might have been 9 worthy if not for the drool.
Modified by Count-Chocula, Dec 5, 2011 6:25 AM
 
Jan 21, 2011 1:16 AM
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That's one bad ass drool lol
 
Feb 3, 2011 4:59 AM

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Some of the comments (besides the usual mindless drivel) in this thread have cracked me up. "Amazing romance", "Huge character development". Have we been watching the same set of films?

Anyway.

The poor prick loses almost gets murderstabbed and poisoned to death by mutated radioactive superweed (You go, Japan. Drugs are evil!), loses an eye in the process and all he gets is a hug and some holding hands like 10 year olds. Talk about an adequate reward for your efforts.

Overall there was way too much hype around this. Granted, the animation and sound was fantastic, but that's about everything that is outstanding about these movies. The characters are boring - all that ever happens is that the girl goes from completely emotionless to "hinting at the chance of some romance maybe happening someday in the future". I won't even start on the whole dual-personality bullshit. The story is not bad, but the pacing is horrible.You could have probably told the exact same story in one two-hour film. Good for the fans of this franchise, I guess - not terribly exciting for someone like me who has had no previous exposure to the material and isn't too crazy about the characters either.

I guess this sums it up for me:

Meh.
Modified by ballistique, Feb 5, 2011 8:37 AM
I don't know karate, but I know karazy
 
Feb 16, 2011 9:43 AM
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6/10

This entire series turned out to be a very bad mix of Rurouni Kenshin/Elfen Lied, both I actually cherish very much because of the theme, but it actually turned out even worse than any of these 2. I guess the writing style of this series isn't for everyone. I like simplistic and logic storytelling, not the "omg it's so complex it's looks deep and shit" type.

I did enjoy the eye-candy+music and I thank this series because it reminded me why I like series Rurouni Kenshin and Elfen Lied.

Here's my ranking:

3­>4>7>6>1>2>5
Modified by SuperSaiyen, Feb 16, 2011 9:50 AM
 
Mar 4, 2011 12:05 PM

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It can't be any better.
 
Mar 5, 2011 3:28 AM

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Finally done with all movies. I was expecting them to kiss, but whatever.
 
May 10, 2011 4:10 PM

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All the series looks like crap after watching this...

Now what the fuck im going to see?..

EPIC!
 
Jun 16, 2011 2:52 AM

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I already complete the Kara No Kyoukai series. This a very interest thing anime to me I will one of the best anime of 2009.
 
Jun 22, 2011 10:28 AM
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I strongly believe I might rate all the 7 movies up by at least one score difference for watching in 2009. Definitely one of the better show out of so many.
 
Jul 11, 2011 5:29 PM

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f0ut said:
Woh, how to butcher a great show in only 2 hours. Did you guys really like this movie? They left all the yandere

Shiki is not, nor was she ever, yandere. Don't use terms you don't understand.

LostHanyou said:
TyG3R said:
What happened with Aozaki ?

Possible spoiler for another type-moon/nasu work

Actually, the events of Kara no Kyoukai take place is an alternate parallel universe from Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime. Granted, the Aozaki family still exists so it could be her, but since KnK never took place in that universe it is no indication of what she is up to.

Good movie, Mujun Rasen was better but it was a satisfying end to a great series of movies.
Modified by Brustablett, Jul 11, 2011 5:32 PM
 
Jul 18, 2011 11:45 AM
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Script wise, not the best KnK movie. But overall, it achieved a really nice conclusion and even managed to get me a bit teary at some parts. 9/10
 
Jul 26, 2011 12:12 AM

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Dammit just finished watching the series... finally couldn't get enough time to glue my ass in the chair for 2 hours. Overall, I wouldn't say it's that bad but I do agree on those who think this was totally BS somehow. To be honest, the character development was poorly done and even with this 'masterpiece' story I still find it too vague and confusing. I was expecting much more for the ending but I think they all screwed up bringing up a perverted psycho jerking off.

Anyways, I would say it's worth watching it again if it wasn't for Lio gayish kiss to Mikiya and all those stuffs with salivas... (nice thing for you faggoty yaoi fans isn't it) I still can't imagine how this this series got such a high ranking even though it was a complete mindfuck (sorry my viewpoint). I mean, c'mon the story and the graphic art's where damn godly but there are too many other animes out there that you can enjoy even moar :D

Edit: Just a little question... Is there going to be another series of Type-Moon with its story/characters somehow connected? Or at least I would like to see more series which could explain more widely about the relationshipe between the two Aozaki sisters. How couldn't those Aozaki sisters (from Tsukihime the other one) meet up or got separated and why it says they can't get along....something like that IDK... maybe we might get another one that FSN can be dragged into this too XD
Modified by Jean_Claymore, Jul 27, 2011 11:02 PM
 
Aug 4, 2011 10:18 AM

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Really awesome movie. Loved this ep better than every other ones did. Mikiya's hair looked funny and a bit wrong at the end :P
10/10



 
Aug 16, 2011 7:37 PM

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Great conclusion to the movie from 1-7. It did accomplish what it did so far.

Some parts were EXTREMELY disturbing, but overall, this was a good movie.

8/10


 
Sep 11, 2011 9:24 AM

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This was simply awesome.

Tha yaoi kiss was pretty unexpected...dang lol
 
Oct 2, 2011 3:23 AM

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Quite disappointed by this one.
 
Dec 5, 2011 6:02 AM

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Can anyone tell me where did Touko went? Seems like she went to somewhere else, did she come back to her detective agency?
Honobono Log - best slice of life short
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most kawaii loli overlord
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Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control
 
Dec 10, 2011 11:44 AM

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It was okay. Nothing special. I don't really get the hype behind these movies. I mean, they're good, they're interesting, they're well written, but holy shit are they just boring half the time.

Doesn't help that I'm not a Type-Moon fanboy either I guess.


 
Dec 20, 2011 8:00 PM

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Mikiya: Why does a person kill another?

Touko: When the emotion you feel towards someone goes over your capacity.

--------------------

DAMN!!!!
That response just gave me a VERY LONG "My Mind Is Blown" type moment!!!
Modified by FifthAveSensei, Dec 20, 2011 8:10 PM
Too Much ANIME......Not enough LIFETIME!!!!!!
 
Jan 1, 2012 11:21 AM
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So.. after being stabbed several times, Kokuto survives? ..and he even manages to crawl all
the way over to Shiki. Kinda hard to believe.

These movies were indeed interesting, had great animation, and beautiful music,
but they were rather boring for the most part.
Modified by UserDeleted, Jan 1, 2012 11:24 AM
 
Jan 4, 2012 9:28 PM

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Everything.

I ... nevermind.

Shit I can't do this.

hi
 
Jan 12, 2012 4:22 PM

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The was probably the longest pile of nothing that I have ever seen.
How do you people find anything in this nothing?
Additionally, Kokutou’s as absurd as ever.
Modified by FauxAzn, Jan 12, 2012 4:34 PM
 
Jan 15, 2012 8:26 AM

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10/10- Amazing. While Movie 5 was such a masterpiece of film-making (cinematography, pacing, storytelling etc), this ended the series in such a beautiful way and it probably equals Movie 5 for me as my top favorite out of the whole series. Not only did it act as the perfect conclusion to the series, but it also had some of the most intricately-constructed and complex character portrayals. A lot of the stuff they say can be deceiving or misleading which is probably why some people find it either average or boring, since it really demands its audience to ponder on what the characters are thinking and feeling.

Mikiya's love and devotion for Shiki finally pays off. Shiki undergoes her final and most crucial development in the series as it finally reveals her feelings and true wishes (life of normalcy vs. life of the uncommon). Finally one that deserves a worthy mention, Lio as the final, and more importantly, the 'personal' villain was nothing short of amazing.

Also anyone who thought Mikiya was being stupid obviously missed the whole point of why he said he "wouldn't forgive" Shiki had she killed Lio. It's not so much because he cared about Lio (if anything he gave up on him later on), it was basically to stop Shiki from putting up a murderous mindset and embracing the life of a killer (especially given how she wasn't even planning to return after killing Lio and how she was willing to throw her life away afterwards). Anyways, truly an amazing film.

Oh and by the way, I'm not even a Type-Moon fan, heck I'm happy to say that this is the first time I've really watched/delved into anything Type-Moon-related.
Modified by ronri, Aug 5, 2012 8:41 AM
 
Feb 6, 2012 5:31 PM

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Kokutou is annoying as hell.
"No kill the maniac. I wont forgive you."
So stupid.

Anyway, this was a great show.
Good ost, nice art etc.
 
Mar 4, 2012 1:00 PM

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Wow, how is this the second highest rated out of all KnK movies? Really disappointing overall, this pretty much runed the interesting conflict about how the truth about Shiki's connection to murders will affect Mikiya's relationship with her. I mean, everything seemed to be building up to that and in the end we get blatant moralizing and pretentious philosophy over such a simple message. I have my complaints about how the narrative strayed to unnecessary parts when this kind of movie really screams for tighter narrative.

While Mikiya's recovery after all that is bullshit, I don't have any complaints about such a happy ending. I really started feeling Shiki deserves a good ending as her characterization became better, and even Mikiya deserves a good ending after everything he's gone through, although he is really inconceivable as a character.


4/5 anyway, it was a satisfying conclusion.

What's the significance of Shiki starting to use 'ore' at the end? Is it just to show that she's living out her and SHIKI's mutual dream to live peacefully with Mikiya in his place as well?
Modified by VictimOfFate, Mar 4, 2012 1:04 PM
 
Mar 4, 2012 5:16 PM

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VictimOfFate said:
Really disappointing overall, this pretty much runed the interesting conflict about how the truth about Shiki's connection to murders will affect Mikiya's relationship with her. I mean, everything seemed to be building up to that and in the end we get blatant moralizing and pretentious philosophy over such a simple message.


The conflict is still there. The idea is that Shiki always had it in her to become a killer (FYI Shiki is actually mentally unstable and borderline insane), it's her attachment and days spent with Mikiya that allowed her to soften up and resist her murderous urges.

The revelation in which she is shown to be innocent due to Lio actually committing the original murders further emphasizes this point. When Mikiya said "he wouldn't forgive her", it wasn't a question and test of morality, it was to see if Shiki truly cared about their deep connection. We already know that Mikiya is willing to forgive Shiki for anything she does, so that statement was him simply testing her and their relationship. In the novel, it's more simple in that Mikiya tells Shiki that "there's no going back" rather than the more subtle lie of "I won't forgive you". In the end it was shown that Shiki only truly desired a normal life, not the one she was born with and Mikiya gave her that which is why she wanted to preserve it. Why would she force herself to act differently (hunt Lio on her own without help or assitance from Mikiya and Touko) if she desired that? Why is she still trying to prove that she's not a homicidal maniac by killing a homicidal maniac? (see the contradiction here?)

The idea behind Shiki's murderous urge and her connection to Mikiya wasn't one of philosophical morality (it was completely justified to kill Lio, even the movie says so), it was one of self-denial and acceptance of what Shiki truly wanted (contrary to what some might think).

Shiki was on the brink of becoming a true killer (and willingly so) when she decided to hunt down Lio. If anything, it was Mikiya's words that saved her from becoming a killer, when by all means, she should've become one given her mental state.
Modified by ronri, Mar 6, 2012 6:15 PM
 
Mar 4, 2012 11:27 PM

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ronri said:

The idea is that Shiki always had it in her to become a killer (FYI Shiki is actually mentally unstable and borderline insane), it's her attachment and days spent with Mikiya that allowed her to soften up and resist her murderous urges.

That contradicts nothing what I wrote. The plot convenience and shallowness of the fact it's in the end possible for her to just resist her origin and find a new, more content way to "fill her heart" just by being Mikiya doesn't change.

ronri said:

The revelation in which she is shown to be innocent due to Lio actually committing the original murders further emphasizes this point.

I think that was left somewhat open, but it doesn't matter if Shiki or SHIKI murdered them or not. Mikiya wants to believe in the Shiki in front of him without regard to her past sins and wants to keep her from straying. Being in denial about Shiki's connection to the murders just means he believes Shiki can save herself from the fate of a murderer no matter what she has done in the past because she truly wants a normal life. The two of them didn't even have that much of a strong connection back when the first of the first murders happened so they wouldn't have been that much of a test on their relationship.

ronri said:

When Mikiya said "he wouldn't forgive her", it wasn't a question and test of morality, it was to see if Shiki truly cared about their deep connection. We already know that Mikiya is willing to forgive Shiki for anything she does, so that statement was him simply testing her and their relationship.


He knew she cared about their connection, he uses it to remind Shiki of what she loses if it happens. It's not a self-serving test to see if she loves him back enough.

ronri said:

Why would she force herself to act differently (hunt Lio on her own without help or assitance from Mikiya and Touko) if she desired that? Why is she still trying to prove that she's not a homicidal maniac by killing a homicidal maniac? (see the contradiction here?)

I don't think anyone would mistake those for murderous impulses caused by her origin. They are caused by her emotions, not the joy of killing, and killing in this case is a means to protect her new life. It's a conflict (other than because murder is wrong) either because denying all kinds of will to kill is a symbol of the relationship between Shiki and Mikiya, or because Mikiya fears killing may awaken Shiki's origin

ronri said:

The idea behind Shiki's murderous urge and her connection to Mikiya wasn't one of philosophical morality (it was completely justified to kill Lio, even the movie says so), it was one of self-denial and acceptance what Shiki truly wanted (contrary to what some might think).


Mikiya's view represents one moral view. Justification is philosophical because nothing has value without subjective viewpoint, and since the movie assumes it justified, it's a discussion between different views and therefore it's a part of the setting. I agree it's obviously less important than the role of murder in Shiki's character development and in the love story between her and Mikiya though. Moralization was just try hard and you become happy, and pretentious philosophy was that usual nasuverse crap, particularly 'you can only kill once' and the difference between murder and slaughter. It's pointless and lacks content or insight but it's glorified just to appear cool.

ronri said:

Shiki was on the brink of becoming a true killer (and willingly so) when she decided to hunt down Lio. If anything, it was Mikiya's words that saved her from becoming a killer, when by all means, she should've become one given her mental state.


Shiki was not going to become a true killer (one who stays true to her origin) rather than protecting her new life. She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger. Her origin would always lead her to pick murder as the alternative to anything, but her personality can control it. This is different, it's a conscious choice that is different from failing to resist her urges since it's the only thing she could have done. Like I said earlier, it becomes a conflict in this context either because never killing anyone is an important symbol for her clean start after coma and relationship between her and Mikiya, or because killing may awaken her origin
Modified by VictimOfFate, Mar 4, 2012 11:33 PM
 
Mar 5, 2012 1:24 AM

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VictimOfFate said:
I think that was left somewhat open, but it doesn't matter if Shiki or SHIKI murdered them or not. Mikiya wants to believe in the Shiki in front of him without regard to her past sins and wants to keep her from straying. Being in denial about Shiki's connection to the murders just means he believes Shiki can save herself from the fate of a murderer no matter what she has done in the past because she truly wants a normal life.

It was NEVER left open. Mikiya proved that it was all Lio's doing. Lio tried to lie by setting up Shiki/SHIKI as the killer, when in fact it was all his own doing.

VictimOfFate said:
The two of them didn't even have that much of a strong connection back when the first of the first murders happened so they wouldn't have been that much of a test on their relationship.

That in itself is very much debatable. A lot of their deep connection is implied, not spoken, you tend to forget that Mikiya and Shiki themselves (especially Shiki) started out as introverted characters. The fact that they could act so naturally towards each other over time was enough indication of Shiki's character growth.

VictimOfFate said:
He knew she cared about their connection, he uses it to remind Shiki of what she loses if it happens. It's not a self-serving test to see if she loves him back enough.

That's what I mean, I think you might have misinterpreted what I just said, and no when I said "test" I didn't mean it in a self-serving kind of way. You tend to forget that just because "he knows" that she cares, doesn't mean she realizes/admits it herself, hence the need of him actually bringing it up with her.

VictimOfFate said:
I don't think anyone would mistake those for murderous impulses caused by her origin. They are caused by her emotions, not the joy of killing, and killing in this case is a means to protect her new life. It's a conflict (other than because murder is wrong) either because denying all kinds of will to kill is a symbol of the relationship between Shiki and Mikiya, or because Mikiya fears killing may awaken Shiki's origin

I don't think you're getting this. Shiki (even the novel emphasizes this) was actually on the brink of murdering for the first time after such a long time. The fact that it wasn't just out of pure impulse just shows how emotionally unstable she truly was at that time. She was willing to actually throw her life away after murdering Lio and even potentially abandoning Mikiya (again they made this more obvious in the novel). It was Mikiya's words that reminded her of what she always had and wanted to protect which allowed her to abandon her pursuit of Lio at the end (until Lio showed that he "killed" Mikiya...)


VictimOfFate said:
I agree it's obviously less important than the role of murder in Shiki's character development and in the love story between her and Mikiya though. Moralization was just try hard and you become happy, and pretentious philosophy was that usual nasuverse crap, particularly 'you can only kill once' and the difference between murder and slaughter. It's pointless and lacks content or insight but it's glorified just to appear cool.


Regarding the philosophy and morality, I was talking about the point of the film, not the philosophical concepts behind the concept of murder. Now this sounds more like a matter of taste the way you're talking about it now, as I personally found the philosophies surrounding the muder/slaughter interesting, sufficiently entertaining and actually straightforward. To say that it lacks content or insight is just unfair as the philosophy used was truly needed to avoid the plot holes. Given the circumstances of Shiki's character, "glorifying" these concepts felt very appropriate as it gave more emphasis on Shiki's mindset (yet the fact that some people don't seem to get it just shows how much more it needed to be emphasized beyond what was already "glorified").

VictimOfFate said:
Shiki was not going to become a true killer (one who stays true to her origin) rather than protecting her new life. She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger. Her origin would always lead her to pick murder as the alternative to anything, but her personality can control it. This is different, it's a conscious choice that is different from failing to resist her urges since it's the only thing she could have done. Like I said earlier, it becomes a conflict in this context either because never killing anyone is an important symbol for her clean start after coma and relationship between her and Mikiya, or because killing may awaken her origin


I think you're missing the point again. At the time when she was just pursuing Lio, she was actually willing to kill Lio out of cold blood (the novel emphasizes her cruel and apathetic thoughts much more unlike the silent treatment she was giving in the movie). This is what most people didn't realize, in that Shiki only decided to act rationally during the final sequences of the film thanks to being reminded by Mikiya's words. That's why when she killed Lio she was able to maintain her current mindset, because her motives were different than before. Yes she wanted to protect Mikiya before, but it never dominated her thoughts as she was more furious of the very existence of Lio as he was the one who pretty much drove SHIKI to his death.

I'll try summarize some of my points in a more simpler way:

Mikiya's point is the psychological impact (that committing murder) will have on Shiki. Shiki didn’t have to go hunt Lio if it was just to stop him or punish him, she could have given the authorities the information or even asked for assistance from Touko and Mikiya (like what she usually would've done) instead, she WANTS to kill him, and Mikiya knows she won’t be the same if she crosses that line.

The point is not that killing is *absolutely wrong*, but that Shiki has unique circumstances that when triggered (i.e. actually killing someone) might actually send her off the brink into stab-happy homicidal mania (it's no lie to say that Shiki is actually borderline insane, even Nasu has referred to her as "tsungire" which he sees as a loose variation of the yandere archetype).

Hence the point of Lio wanting her to kill (though it's not the only point why he wants it done), and Mikiya preventing her.

That Shiki actually didn’t devolve to follow her own origin (Death/Nothingness) after actually going through with killing someone had to do with her growth as a person and attachment to Mikiya. By all accounts, she should have. It was her connection to Mikiya that allowed her to remember and think differently in comparison to when she was hunting down Lio out of cold blooded revenge.

Now, part of the reason why I said the 5th movie is better than the 7th is that the 5th movie lays out the intended message much more clearly. In the 7th film, much of the intended message wasn't conveyed clearly enough as a lot of their thought process wasn't shown in the film, relying on deceiving dialogue and subtle expressions instead.

This made the 7th film seem much more average and harder to understand as it requires the viewer re-watch the film just to fully grasp the whole weight of the situation. By all means the filmmakers should've accounted for this, which is why I said before that I find the 5th movie to be a better-constructed film overall where in the novel, it was fairly obvious that the 7th chapter/movie should've been the best one due to the amount of content that they actually fleshed out for Shiki, Mikiya and Lio which sadly wasn't emphasized as much in the film version.
Modified by ronri, Mar 6, 2012 5:43 PM
 
Mar 5, 2012 8:29 AM

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ronri said:

It was NEVER left open. Mikiya proved that it was all Lio's doing. Lio tried to lie by setting up Shiki/SHIKI as the killer, when in fact it was all his own doing.

I must have missed some moment then, because I never saw any conclusive proof, only Mikiya's claim that Lio is lying


ronri said:

That in itself is very much debatable. A lot of their deep connection is implied, not spoken, you tend to forget that Mikiya and Shiki themselves (especially Shiki) started out as introverted characters. The fact that they could act so naturally towards each other over time was enough indication of Shiki's character growth.

What I mean is only that I don't think there's any reason to assume she found Mikiya her biggest support at that point simply because he had only recently entered her life. I'm sure his efforts to get close to her had a big impact on her, but not something that alone suffices to resist murder.

ronri said:

I don't think you're getting this. Shiki (even the novel emphasizes this) was actually on the brink of murdering for the first time after such a long time. The fact that it wasn't out of impulse just shows how emotionally unstable she truly was at that time. She was willing to actually throw her life away after murdering Lio and even potentially abandoning Mikiya (again they made this more obvious in the novel). It was Mikiya's words that reminded her of what she always had and wanted to protect which allowed her to abandon her pursuit of Lio at the end (until Lio showed that he "killed" Mikiya...)


I don't really see how I don't get it since that's the thing I wrote, except more analytical. She is burdened because killing Lio destroys the symbol of interdependency and trust between them, and then there's a high risk it awakens her origin. I made one big mistake though; I confused Touko's definition of murder where your emotions overboil and you to momentarily lose reason with slaughter, which is cold-blooded and calculated. This is because although Shiki's action is a combination of both; she was not acting totally spontaneously and without reason when she went to kill Lio, yet she was affected by extreme emotion. But I agree that the action itself can cause her origin to awaken.

ronri said:

[To say that it lacks content or insight is just unfair as the philosophy used was truly needed to avoid the plot holes.

That's my biggest issue with it. A pretty baseless philosophy is assumed by everyone like an universal truth and it's somehow one of the most important plot devices.

ronri said:

I think you're missing the point again. At the time when she was just pursuing Lio, she was actually willing to kill Lio out of cold blood (the novel emphasizes her cruel and apathetic thoughts much more unlike the silent treatment she was giving in the movie). This is what most people didn't realize, in that Shiki only decided to act rationally during the final sequences of the film thanks to being reminded by Mikiya's words. That's why when she killed Lio she was able to maintain her current mindset, because her motives were different than before. Yes she wanted to protect Mikiya before, but it never dominated her thoughts as she was more furious of the very existence of Lio as he was the one who pretty much drove SHIKI to his death.


Thanks, that's informative. I understood that the combination of the killing being because of her spontaneous hatred rather than being calculated, combined with her feeligns towards Mikiya were what let her keep her sanity

and btw
victimoffate said:

She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger.


has a huge writing error from me. It's should be saying "She set out to kill Lio in the end because there was no other choice" (referring to the attempt she stopped because of Mikiya) That's what I referred to earlier with a combination of spontaneity and cold-bloodedness that confused me a bit earlier.


ronri said:

Mikiya's point is the psychological impact (that committing murder) will have on Shiki. Shiki didn’t have to go hunt Lio if it was just to stop him or punish him, she could have given the authorities the information or even asked for assistance from Touko and Mikiya (like what she usually would've done) instead, she WANTS to kill him, and Mikiya knows she won’t be the same if she crosses that line.

Mikiya's role is pretty obvious, and I thought that was mostly the influence of her origin. Since I don't remember Shiki really asking for assistance earlier other than spare arms, I pinned not relying on others on her both her origin and proud personality. But you've read the novels so I believe you are right she would usually ask for help and it made things more clear to me.

ronri said:

The point is not that killing is *absolutely wrong*, but that Shiki has unique circumstances that when triggered (i.e. actually killing someone) might actually send her off the brink into stab-happy homicidal mania (it's no lie to say that Shiki is actually borderline insane, even Nasu has referred to her as "tsungire" which he sees as a loose variation of the yandere archetype).

Thanks, though I already listed that as one of the two primary reasons.

ronri said:

That Shiki actually didn’t devolve to follow her own origin (Death/Nothingness) after actually going through with killing someone had to do with her growth as a person and attachment to Mikiya. By all accounts, she should have. It was her connection to Mikiya that allowed her to remember and think differently in comparison to when she was hunting down Lio out of cold blooded revenge.

Man, the way I phrased things must have been really awkward for you to think I didn't understand anything.

ronri said:

Now, part of the reason why I said the 5th movie is better than the 7th is that the 5th movie lays out the intended message much more clearly. In the 7th film, much of the intended message wasn't conveyed clearly enough as a lot of their thought process wasn't shown in the film, relying on deceiving dialogue and subtle expressions instead.

This made the 7th film seem much more average and harder to understand as it requires the viewer re-watch the film just to fully grasp the whole weight of the situation. By all means the filmmakers should've accounted for this, which is why I said before that I find the 5th movie to be a better-constructed film overall where in the novel, it was fairly obvious that the 7th chapter/movie should've been the best one due to the amount of content that they actually fleshed out for Shiki, Mikiya and Lio which sadly wasn't emphasized as much in the film version.


I completely agree. The content was there in the 7th movie, but the narrative strayed to completely wrong parts at times at the expense of internal characterization which I think would be helpful to understand some of Shiki's subtlest motivations and emotions. I liked Shiki's character, it's a really interesting concept although it relies on pretty weird Nasuverse stuff that I don't really like.

I think I've heard that the movies are primarily targeted at already existing fans of the novels instead of everyone. It assumes the audience to know some things in advance to fully understand it. For example I don't think I would have understood some of the stuff about Araya's plans if I hadn't read Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime. The same assumtion of some familiarity of characters and their relationships might have been what led them to convey some things using only atmosphere and gestures.
Modified by VictimOfFate, Mar 5, 2012 8:33 AM
 
Mar 5, 2012 10:00 AM

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VictimOfFate said:

I must have missed some moment then, because I never saw any conclusive proof, only Mikiya's claim that Lio is lying

Most of the evidence can be seen by watching Movie 2, a lot of the imagery is done in such a way (the killer using a knife) distracts you from the fact that the killer isn't wearing a kimono. Also in one of the murder scenes, you get to see a quick flash of Lio walking by (initially implying as if he was one of the first victims). Lio himself makes his first appearance as he was attempting to manipulate Shiki's mental state (disguised from the audience as one of Mikiya's random friends, his dialogue hints at Shiki as the cause of the murders as if he's loosely accusing her).

Also in Movie 7, when Mikiya was reading Lio's diary, videotape recordings are played and you see the different times in which Lio was spying on Shiki most of which contained scenes from Movie 2 except this time they're from Lio's point of view (all the more showing how much of a stalker he is).

VictimOfFate said:
I don't really see how I don't get it since that's the thing I wrote, except more analytical. She is burdened because killing Lio destroys the symbol of interdependency and trust between them, and then there's a high risk it awakens her origin. I made one big mistake though; I confused Touko's definition of murder where your emotions overboil and you to momentarily lose reason with slaughter, which is cold-blooded and calculated. This is because although Shiki's action is a combination of both; she was not acting totally spontaneously and without reason when she went to kill Lio, yet she was affected by extreme emotion. But I agree that the action itself can cause her origin to awaken.

My bad for sounding rude beforehand, but yes you pretty much nailed it now. Touko's definition of "murder" is pretty much what Shiki was going through when she was chasing down Lio. I can see why you'd assume that way though. The movie doesn't exactly emphasize much of Shiki's internal thoughts which is a real shame as she was actually very emotionally affected by Lio's very existence to the point that even after talking to Mikiya, she thought very harshly of him (some of her thoughts were actually pretty bad to the point that you'd feel kinda bad for Mikiya, which goes to show that she was really acting impulsively).

VictimOfFate said:
That's my biggest issue with it. A pretty baseless philosophy is assumed by everyone like an universal truth and it's somehow one of the most important plot devices.

Fair enough, though what makes this acceptable to me is the fact that a lot of Touko's philosophical ramblings and concepts are mentioned as being her own assumptions of people. The novel makes it a bit clearer that Touko is not all-knowing, and she even goes out of her way to say that to Mikiya and for him not to take her beliefs as the ultimate/universal truth.

VictimOfFate said:
Since I don't remember Shiki really asking for assistance earlier other than spare arms, I pinned not relying on others on her both her origin and proud personality. But you've read the novels so I believe you are right she would usually ask for help and it made things more clear to me.

I can't blame you, Movie 7 doesn't emphasize as much on showcasing/mentioning the actual weaknesses and anti-social nature of Shiki's character. It's a shame really, because in doing so, a lot of people assume that Shiki was being headstrong making the right decisions in this film (thus making Mikiya look like the moral-idiot), whereas the novel makes it rather obvious that she was actually being reckless and impulsive.

VictimOfFate said:
Man, the way I phrased things must have been really awkward for you to think I didn't understand anything.

If that's the case, then my bad for sounding rather rude about it, t'was not my intention. >_<

VictimOfFate said:
I completely agree. The content was there in the 7th movie, but the narrative strayed to completely wrong parts at times at the expense of internal characterization which I think would be helpful to understand some of Shiki's subtlest motivations and emotions. I liked Shiki's character, it's a really interesting concept although it relies on pretty weird Nasuverse stuff that I don't really like.

It's actually rather strange as a lot of the internal thoughts of other characters are present in the other films, yet in Movie 7 some of them were left out in favor of subtle changes in their expression to get the point across (which sadly makes it harder for viewers to get what's going on).

VictimOfFate said:

I think I've heard that the movies are primarily targeted at already existing fans of the novels instead of everyone. It assumes the audience to know some things in advance to fully understand it. For example I don't think I would have understood some of the stuff about Araya's plans if I hadn't read Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime. The same assumtion of some familiarity of characters and their relationships might have been what led them to convey some things using only atmosphere and gestures.

Actually the movies aren't meant to be targeted to the fans (I've read the preview and Blu-Ray interviews with Nasu), and even Nasu has admitted that it's not the easiest thing in the world to digest and for that he feels bad as a writer who's catering to new fans (he's even said that he prefers it if people watch the series twice as he knows that some may not get it the first time around and if need be, even read the novels for more clarification). I won't lie in saying that I had no prior knowledge about the Nasuverse (Kara no Kyoukai was my first experience) yet I still enjoyed all 7 films (I guess it's really just my kind of thing).

Now again, I'm sorry if I sounded rude in some of my comments before, as I honestly just wanted to clear up some stuff so that there's no further confusion. But yeah glad I was able to help with providing explanation as I love the KNK series. I actually have a hard time in completely getting into the other works within the Nasuverse as much as I did in getting further into KNK. :D
Modified by ronri, Aug 5, 2012 8:47 AM
 
Mar 5, 2012 12:04 PM

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Nah, we are fine, bro. You definitely don't need to apologize =) It was about me being too sensitive, anyway. I don't think you were that blunt, I probably just reflected negativity from myself as my initial comments here were insulting towards many merits of the movie. I was a bit offensive in my comments because I was still a bit disappointed I didn't enjoy it as much as 3 or 5, though you helped me see some things KnK that I disliked or misunderstood in a different light. Those were polite, well-written and informative posts that opened the whole series to me a lot more, thanks.
 
Apr 22, 2012 5:10 AM

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Posting this same reply I had from the other thread simply because it clears up so many things:

I finally had the chance to watch the 7th movie with retail subs but holy crap it has changed my view on it! For Movie 7 (I can't say for sure with the other movies), I highly recommend the retail subtitles as it is far superior than the fansubs.

The fansubs not only make Lio (the final villain) seem petty/annoying, but it makes him sound as if he was just rambling and talking in circles. The retail subs make his goals and intentions clear, and his dialogue has a more condescending tone and finesse that the fansubs completely neglected.

The worst part of all, the fansubs presented Shiki's intentions and dialogue with Mikiya to be very vague whereas the retail subs outline it very clearly (she clearly tells him that she "can't" return as a normal person, and is supposedly willing to become a bloodthirsty killer). Even worse is that there are parts where it's quite obvious that the fansubs mistranslated some of the dialogue very differently, to the point that it throws off the whole scene (the main cause to people's confusion).

In one scene from the fansubs Shiki says "What a blessed man...", whereas in the retail subs she actually says "What an idiotic optimist..." which makes more sense in context.

All of this pretty much clarifies a lot of the points I had been making in my past posts.
Modified by ronri, May 30, 2012 5:52 AM
 
May 5, 2012 1:40 AM

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I wanted to like this movie, I really did, but there just wasn't much for me to like. There were plenty of good things the film did. And while I like how the film was able to make me feel sympathy for Lio, I really do wish they elaborated more on the inner workings of their universe, such as the instincts or "the core" of everyone. The one point that ruined the film for me; however, was Mikiya surviving the head wound, it was just far too ridiculous for my taste. (At least in Touko's case, we were given an explanation.) I do; however, respect the fact that they didn't force a kiss scene.

All in all, aside from the fantastic fifth movie, the rest of the movies fell flat, for me.
Modified by AzureBlues, May 5, 2012 1:46 AM
 
May 5, 2012 6:52 AM

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@SeraVerte:

I love this movie as it delves more into the human drama between Shiki, Mikiya and Lio, and it even strays away a bit from its own universe despite introducing new concepts (like fully unleashing your Origin). Still, from the sounds of it, it's pretty understandable why you didn't like it as it didn't seem to strike your preferences in where this movie could have headed (whereas for me it hit it right on the mark).While I do agree that Mikiya's survival seemed out of nowhere, I don't think it was that far-fetched (I have many reasons for this). However I do think that having a sad ending would actually have felt more like a cop-out as it would've felt rather cliched (yes, for once in a series like this, I think that a sad ending would've been jarringly cliched). So I was pleasantly surprised that it went for a happy ending as I thought it's what the characters really deserved (especially considering the dark tone of the whole series and Type-Moon in general).
 
May 7, 2012 6:16 PM

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ronri said:
@SeraVerte:

I love this movie as it delves more into the human drama between Shiki, Mikiya and Lio, and it even strays away a bit from its own universe despite introducing new concepts (like fully unleashing your Origin). Still, from the sounds of it, it's pretty understandable why you didn't like it as it didn't seem to strike your preferences in where this movie could have headed (whereas for me it hit it right on the mark).While I do agree that Mikiya's survival seemed out of nowhere, I don't think it was that far-fetched (I have many reasons for this). However I do think that having a sad ending would actually have felt more like a cop-out as it would've felt rather cliched (yes, for once in a series like this, I think that a sad ending would've been jarringly cliched). So I was pleasantly surprised that it went for a happy ending as I thought it's what the characters really deserved (especially considering the dark tone of the whole series and Type-Moon in general).


Agreed. Even though I didn't rate the other movies very highly, this was a perfect conclusion to the series. 9/10
 
May 26, 2012 4:27 PM

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Not the best movie IMO (I liked 3 the most, very closely followed by 5).

Glad to see that Kokuto is still alive, and Shiki didn't commit the murders in the 2nd movie (altough I was quite positive she did).
Anyway, Shiki should just have cut his limbs off and let him suffer for the rest of his life, instead of killing him and giving him what he wants; that's a so much better revenge then just killing him.
 
May 30, 2012 12:12 AM

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I really was not impressed with this one, visually and sound wise, yes it was quite a treat but I found some of the dialogue laughable. The fact that Mikiya might really be dead never had an effect on me, so that tells me a lot about how this series managed to develop its characters, also I found Mikiya to be so naive at times that it borders stupidity, even so, I liked some of the interaction between him and Shiki.

So overall, the producers were quite ambitious with this one but in the end everything was kinda hit and miss, they tried too much to shock us, and so I felt that logic and realism were forgotten.
 
May 30, 2012 1:19 AM

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Zero said:
I really was not impressed with this one, visually and sound wise, yes it was quite a treat but I found some of the dialogue laughable. The fact that Mikiya might really be dead never had an effect on me, so that tells me a lot about how this series managed to develop its characters, also I found Mikiya to be so naive at times that it borders stupidity, even so, I liked some of the interaction between him and Shiki.

So overall, the producers were quite ambitious with this one but in the end everything was kinda hit and miss, they tried too much to shock us, and so I felt that logic and realism were forgotten.


Hmmm not too sure about that one. Depends on what you were watching. The fansubs done for Movie 7 is almost laughable to the point that some characters almost seemed to have mood swings or were practically incoherent, not to mention they even mistranslated some parts whereas the retail subs actually did a really great job. This surprised me as the fansubs did a pretty good job with the past couple of films yet the quality went down so much for the final film (which pisses me off as it gives the wrong impression to people about the film).

Regarding logic and realism. Logic-wise everything should've made sense, even Mikiya's decisions. This is partly the fault of the fansubs (if it was the version you watched) as it actually screwed up some of the key conversations and ended up making Mikiya look like the idiot of the story (whereas the one at fault is actually meant to be Shiki and the retail subs makes this far more obvious). As for realism, I'm curious which aspects bothered you about it? Lio shouldn't count because the guy was practically influenced by the supernatural....
Modified by ronri, Dec 15, 2013 3:09 PM
 
May 30, 2012 2:24 AM

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ronri said:
Zero said:
I really was not impressed with this one, visually and sound wise, yes it was quite a treat but I found some of the dialogue laughable. The fact that Mikiya might really be dead never had an effect on me, so that tells me a lot about how this series managed to develop its characters, also I found Mikiya to be so naive at times that it borders stupidity, even so, I liked some of the interaction between him and Shiki.

So overall, the producers were quite ambitious with this one but in the end everything was kinda hit and miss, they tried too much to shock us, and so I felt that logic and realism were forgotten.


Hmmm not too sure about that one. Depends on what you were watching. The fansubs done for Movie 7 is almost laughable to point that some characters almost seemed to have mood swings or incoherent, not to mention they even mistranslated some parts whereas the retail subs actually did a really great job. This surprised me as the fansubs did a pretty good job with the past couple of films yet the quality went down so much for the final film (which pisses me off as it gives the wrong impression to people about the film).

Regarding logic and realism. Logic-wise everything should've made sense, even Mikiya's decisions. This is partly the fault of the fansubs (if it was the version you watched) as it actually screwed up some of the key conversations and ended up making Mikiya look like the idiot of the story (whereas the one at fault is actually meant to be Shiki and the retail subs make it far more obvious). As for realism, I'm curious which aspects bothered you about it? Lio shouldn't count because the guy was practically influenced by the supernatural....


One example of dialogue that I found bad:
Mikiya finds Shirazumi's apartment and even if Shirazumi is into drugs and has clearly just lost an arm, Mikiya says:
"Shirazumi, are you all right? You're not acting normal."

Also, I don't remember drugs being a major theme in any anime so I do congratulate them from trying something that is kinda taboo even for anime, but I think they could have worked a lot more on the scene with Mikiya in the alleys looking for that special drug, I think they intended that scene to be disturbing but for me it wasn't anything.

Then there's the effect of drugs, on Mikiya, supposedly he ingested a fatal dose, also his leg suffered quite an injury before being stabbed in the eye, yet he only remembered it hurts once he got over those stairs.

btw, I know one of the reasons why I did not think much of this last part, it's been quite some time since I watched the other 6 parts but even so, I still find this 7th part to be quite flawed compared to most of the other parts.
 
May 30, 2012 3:11 AM

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Zero said:

One example of dialogue that I found bad:
Mikiya finds Shirazumi's apartment and even if Shirazumi is into drugs and has clearly just lost an arm, Mikiya says:
"Shirazumi, are you all right? You're not acting normal."

Also, I don't remember drugs being a major theme in any anime so I do congratulate them from trying something that is kinda taboo even for anime, but I think they could have worked a lot more on the scene with Mikiya in the alleys looking for that special drug, I think they intended that scene to be disturbing but for me it wasn't anything.

Then there's the effect of drugs, on Mikiya, supposedly he ingested a fatal dose, also his leg suffered quite an injury before being stabbed in the eye, yet he only remembered it hurts once he got over those stairs.

btw, I know one of the reasons why I did not think much of this last part, it's been quite some time since I watched the other 6 parts but even so, I still find this 7th part to be quite flawed compared to most of the other parts.


Ah ok cool. I can give you a few explanations for those ones.

Fair enough about that segment, and yes Mikiya does indeed say:
"Shirazumi, are you all right? You're not acting normal."

Just to explain the idea behind this line of dialogue (mind you, not necessarily to defend it), this is actually in part due to the director's choice to omit Mikiya's thoughts. The novel basically has him actually being nervous and cautious about Lio, to the point that he actually wanted to leave but couldn't due to Lio being closer to the door that led outside. Mikiya asking that stupidly obvious question was his way of faking/stalling the situation as he himself was quite aware how dangerous it was to be around Lio. So yeah, that was a bad move on the director's part for pretty much removing Mikiya's thoughts. In fact, the whole movie chose to omit much of the various characters' inner thoughts which while I didn't mind for most parts, can definitely lead to a lot of confusion in some scenes. Admittedly it's worded much better in the retail subs as he says something closer to: "Shirazumi, are you all right? You're acting strange."

The drug thing.... I can definitely see what you mean. While I don't have the novel in hand, making the drug-alley-scenes less cryptic could've elevated its significance. Admittedly I'm not too sure about the shock factor though, as some have argued that it wasn't really the point or maybe it was. So even for me that's sort of up in the air (personally I just took it as stylish cinematography and I myself honestly liked it)

Finally there's the Mikiya-ingesting-drugs-finale-scene. This has been point of contention among many viewers. I will say that both the movie and novel don’t make it very clear if Lio was actually being truthful (or if he even knew about the full extent of the effect of the drugs) so it’s really left ambiguous which is fine by me. I guess it’s left to suspension of disbelief at this point, since by the logic of the narrative (both in the movie and the novel) it indicates that despite the "fatal" nature of the drugs, since both Mikiya and Shiki endured as best as they could anyway, that meant they were able to get some help in time before anything truly bad happened. As for Mikiya not reacting to his injuries that much? Haha that’s just his heart of steel, though if you’re referring to him forgetting about his injuries you can easily attribute it to his loss of consciousness thus his memory about the situation going hazy.

Well I hope that my explanations cleared some stuff and helped you understand and maybe even see the film in a better light. :)
Modified by ronri, Aug 5, 2012 8:32 AM
 
May 31, 2012 2:26 AM

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@ronri: thanks, that was quite an informative post, really helpful, especially explaining that scene in Shirazumi's apartment and how it was in the novel. The director definitely should have tried to show us that Mikiya was nervous and cautious in that scene, maybe through body language if he decided to leave inner thoughts out of that scene, since as it is, that scene was really awkward to watch.
 
Jun 12, 2012 12:47 AM
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Jun 15, 2012 5:19 AM

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This movie was a delicious end to a delicious series, although Mujun Rasen still remains my favorite. I'm also glad that I had the Epilogue to watch immediately following this, or I might have gone mad in wait for it... Although I'm still pretty upset there's no more.

Before this, I had only watched Fate/Stay Night (which I also loved), but this series has definitely turned me on to Type-Moon productions and the Nasuverse, and I will definitely be delving deep into the rest of their works very soon.
 
Jul 11, 2012 11:58 AM

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The first half of the movie was quite enjoyable, normal mystery for this series. But the second half made me think that this is the first time the pacing of the movie was really off as they spent too much time on introspection and making things clear. It's actually a huge contrast as the entire second half takes place in one warehouse with only three characters when the first half had changing scenery and more characters. I didn't have problem with the way they established Shirazumi's madness as the revelation of his origin was interesting. While the concept was influenced by Buddhism, the fact that the origin was consumption (or for other people, something else) made it seem like people have as origin negative feelings which then get repeated. That was actually closer to Christianity with the idea of Original Sin. While philosophically speaking it was a mishmash, inside the movie the theme was used consistently.

Here are my main complaints:

1. Why did they spend so much time going on about how Shiki must not have her first kill? Firstly, she already killed Araya in the fifth movie. Secondly, I think they made too big a deal out of the symbolic value of that abhorred first killing. She was never a stable young woman and even if she had never killed before, the intent had been there, particularly in the first movie when she killed that spirit manifestation. In the third movie there was Asagami, who in the end wasn't worth killing anymore. But Shiki wasn't fighting just to wound her. Yet they went on and on about it as if Shiki could only become crazy after killing someone.

2. So, Shiki originally had a split personality, one side of which was killed four years ago, and now she's had to build up something to replace that. In part she has discovered some of those traits in herself, in part she's relying on Mikiya. While psychologically this is rubbish, it was consistently told so I can accept that. However, that situation leaves too many questions. Why did not Mikiya run at any point when she revealed her murderous desires? The whole series made it look like Mikiya, upon finding out about her madness, decided to keep on hoping that if he loves her and believes in her, she will not act on murderous impulses, and he chose not to do the sensible thing and convince her to seek help. If she herself tried to struggle with it, why did she not seek professional help? Why did nobody else have her committed? Is there no mental health care in Japan?

3. The drooling. Of course it wasn't meant to be pleasant to watch. My problem with it is that I've seen it before in anime when there's a villain who needs to be absolutely evil. At one point Shirazumi licks his hand. It's probably meant to express some kind of perversion as well. It's not exactly a subtle way to make someone look crazy.

4. The fake death. Particularly after they already did it in the fifth movie. As I recall, Mikiya didn't even scream when he was stabbed in the eye, and the blade was covered in blood, implying the knife went in quite deep. So there was no reason to believe he just went unconscious. And yet a few minutes later it's obvious the knife didn't enter his brains. This kind of thing makes me think that the viewer is just being manipulated to feel grief and then relief. And if you can see manipulation from a mile away, it has no effect.

5. Why did Shiki bite her thumb off? It didn't look like she was tied to anything, she was just handcuffed. So technically she could have just stood up and left the place. At that point Shizuka hadn't told her he finished off Mikiya so it did look like she was intending to just leave without killing him. I can't see the reason for such self-mutilation.

While I found many problems with the movie, it was a fine conclusion to the series. All the movies were enjoyable enough to watch and I even managed to like the mystery parts, unlike normally.
 
Jul 11, 2012 10:34 PM

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Movie 7 is the one out of the whole that I've pretty much dissected into pieces, so I think I can actually answer your questions much more easily.

Feorg said:
While the concept was influenced by Buddhism, the fact that the origin was consumption (or for other people, something else) made it seem like people have as origin negative feelings which then get repeated. That was actually closer to Christianity with the idea of Original Sin.


Actually that's where the subtitle "The Garden of Sinners" comes from. Specifically this is highlighted in the novel, as Lio actually describes the warehouse as his "garden of sin". Now as for your issues with the film:

1. I gave an answer about this to someone else before:
The idea behind Shiki's murderous urge and her connection to Mikiya wasn't so much about morality (it was completely justified to kill Lio, even the movie says so on many occasions), it was one of self-denial and acceptance of what Shiki truly wanted (which is to simply have a normal life with somebody.)

Shiki was on the brink of becoming a true killer (and willingly so) when she decided to hunt down Lio. If anything, it was her time with Mikiya and his words of concern that saved her from becoming a killer. With that realization in mind, she was able to kill Lio with a sound mind whereas back then, by all means she should've become a murderer given her mental state.

To be fair, the multiple reiteration of "Shiki will go crazy if she kills" felt a bit necessary. This is because A) it provides context if you were to watch the film separately from the rest of the series after a long time B) Not many people actually got the fact that Shiki was truly insane and murderous, which actually still surprises me even to this day.

2. This isn't so much about Mikiya hoping that Shiki would truly change (well he did), rather he originally simply recognized her inner loneliness. Mikiya wanted to be the one to protect her from hurting herself, and over time he grew to love her and thus, hoped that he could change her (which he did.)

Also Shiki is actually insane (author even approves) and going by traditionalist mentality I'm not even sure if she'd actually seek any medical help about it.

3. This was only semi-obvious in the film, but the novel describes that at that point, Lio couldn't actually control himself and it was his Origin that was slowly taking over his mind as he was becoming more of a beast than a man. In other words, it wasn't so much out of perversion/fan-service as he really he wanted to eat her, but didn't because he believes that he had already conquered his impulses (or so he thinks.) The same could be said about Lio force-feeding Mikiya with his mouth, it wasn't so much that it was done as some sort of twisted fan-service as he was really losing all forms of human reasoning.

The author actually seemed to like his character a lot, describing him to be both sympathetic and someone you could still hate. Essentially a tragic villain but a villain nonetheless. Having read many mixed reactions about his character (along with yours), I think the film succeeds in achieving just that.

4. I always thought that Mikiya's wounds weren't that bad (except for the eye) and the movie would've actually felt more like a cop-out had Mikiya died then and there. Now the main thing is I wouldn't exactly say that particular scene was used to play on the viewer's grief, rather I always thought that it primarily highlighted Lio's breakdown more than anything else (after checking the novel it seemed like that was the point behind it as well.) In particular it was at that moment that Lio's role in the film becomes truly established as a main character in the film, with that scene acting as the finality of what was left of his sane mind.

Now mind you, the novel does explain that Mikiya had actually coughed out the drug when he woke up, and the bleeding was hinted to have sort of helped in pushing out the chemicals so there's that.

5. To be fair, it's her artificial hand. Also because she probably did it so she can move herself more easily. You have to remember that she still couldn't move well enough since her body was drugged with a muscle relaxant, so having both of her hands free would've been a good precaution.

Regarding Movie 7 as a whole, I think a common issue is how viewers might approach as it's actually more the kind of thing where you're supposed take it all in as a spectator. You're essentially just watching these three individuals (Shiki, Lio, and Mikiya) act out based on conscious decisions/impulses, and that's part of the beauty of Movie 7. Where the film stands in terms of moral ground is rather obvious, so if anything it's the characters' interactions and the way they carry out their desires that makes Movie 7 quite different from the other films. Basically it plays out very similarly to a theatre play. Well I'm glad you enjoyed this movie even with those issues. I hope my answers cleared up some of your questions or at least provided you with a new perspective of the film. ^_^
Modified by ronri, Jul 11, 2012 11:07 PM
 
Jul 12, 2012 2:34 AM

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Thanks for the reply. It did clear up some things, even if I still think most of those issues exist. It also made me think that my main complaint with the movie isn't the writing as such but the direction. So I can understand why certain things were done, but I didn't like the way the scenes were presented or the amount of time used on them.

1. The problem is not the fact that they were making clear that Shiki was at crossroads between normal life and insanity. The problem is that since it was clear to me from the very first movie that she was unhinged, this movie spent an awful lot of time driving that point home. Because I didn't need that explained to me, those scenes seemed too long and contributed the most to my judgment of poor pacing.

2. Mikiya's actions still seem illogical. In a way it's funny that it's easier to accept the unrealistic split personality thing than how Mikiya behaved. It just seems too incredible that anyone would react the way he did to Shiki's madness.

3. Lio wasn't a bad villain, rather I was disturbed by the visuals (and not only in the sense I was supposed to be). I just thought that the way they visually showed his madness was clichéd and too blatant. There's a villain/opponent in Hajime no Ippo: New Challenger who did the same thing with licking his hand, and the whole gesture just seems too obvious in showing someone is crazy.

Issues 4 and 5 are the same in that those too could have been resolved by showing things a bit differently. I agree that it is quite similar to a theatre play towards the end and the interaction between the three characters is quite complex in the way their thought processes reflect on each other and how they change. That complexity also makes Shiki's transformation to "normal" girl seem credible enough even though it was not realistic (someone with a long history of such severe mental health problems doesn't get well that easily).
 
Jul 12, 2012 6:17 AM

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Posts: 888
Regarding Lio's drooling, like I said it wasn't meant to be the traditional crazy slasher kind of vibe with all the licking. He was truly becoming bestial, like how a predator would play with its meal before eating it which is why he's even drooling so inhumanly and heavily to begin with. To be fair, I find that the off-putting nature of it was actually a highlight in his character (many people were truly disgusted by it so you're not the only one), so I treat its blatant straightforwardness in its presentation more as a positive rather than a negative.

As for issues for 4 and 5, I thought they were simple enough that they didn't really require any detailed explanation.
Modified by ronri, Aug 5, 2012 8:27 AM
 
Jul 16, 2012 11:55 AM

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Posts: 1276
wow, fantastic, that dude did have a lot of saliva haha, not sure weather this is going to be a 9/10 or a 10/10, as a series it would be a 10/10 but by it self it isn't so good, hmmm, i need to think this over
 
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