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Poll: Ookami to Koushinryou II Episode 6 Discussion


Aug 26, 2012 8:41 AM

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Hmph, I knew I could trust Holo! Well, I guess she gave Holo the pyrite just to give Lawrence a heart attack haha.

"I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika
 
Sep 28, 2012 8:22 AM

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Great episode! It's good that they made up and that accompanied with some interesting facts and information!

Definitely a nice episode! Up to the second half of this Anime!
 
Oct 17, 2012 2:20 AM
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peix said:
Horo being on Lawrence's side the entire time felt like a cope out by the author.
Just my personal opinion.


Pretty much how I feel. The whole build up was for nothing, no repercussions for the actions of anyone. Everything just went back to normal. Also it would be nice if Lawrence would solve a problem by himself for once.

Maybe if you had access to both sides it would be better, but to represent it fully from Lawrences side as this huge, dramatic event only to have it end with 0 repercussions is silly.
 
Oct 18, 2012 4:48 PM
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It was a bit overwrought, but there were repercussions; Holo learned that she had to start paying attention to Lawrence, he learned that he loved her, and Amati was given the beating he so soundly deserved for being a pompous twit to everyone in town.

Also, if you pay attention, Lawrence DID solve his own "problem". Holo didn't help him at all this time, and the only reason he lost was because Diana gave Holo the Pyrite to mess with her (it wasn't that Holo went there for the Pyrite). Lawrence beat Amati on his own, and had no idea that Holo had set everything up in the first place, because she didn't tell him.

If nothing else, it's worth the time to consider what Holo was doing the whole time.. it adds an extra bit of amusement that might elevate it from being a disappointment. She was pretty much making the same mistakes he was, just for different reasons.
 
 
Oct 19, 2012 5:44 PM
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Sometimes my pessimism doesn't translate well enough. The whole basis for the show is the interaction between Holo and Lawrence, while also focusing on them as characters. You give us the potential for one to be taken out of the equation and that's pretty dramatic. Drama in media is an illusion that is done to captivate an audience, to make them come back for more. However when you build this grand set, this elaborate stage in which the foundation of what makes a story interesting is destroyed then you need to have an end that feels satisfying.

The realizations that Lawrence and Holo had (in your words) are trivial, and cheap when looked at in comparison to the deal that was on the table over those 3 episodes (you yourself also mention the overly dramatic nature of those 3 episodes). In the end the outcome felt cheap and small. Any drama left in the show was easy to see through.

But that is the nature of most stories. The people who don't always like happy endings, or want some weight to the conclusion of such drama is probably quite slim. If Holo/Lawrence truly split then there would be no show, or there would at least be a decrease in viewers.

AS for Lawrence fixing the problem he didn't actually fix it per say. He had the blueprint, or idea. But it was based around many variables that could go wrong, and as mentioned he could still be outwitted by Armati.


At some point I'll probably go back and rewatch the series mainly out of enjoyment but also to get greater clarification on some points.
Modified by failedtoopen, Oct 19, 2012 5:49 PM
 
Oct 19, 2012 8:50 PM
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You're perfectly right. If you just take what's being presented at face-value and don't actually piece together what's going on behind the scenes, why the characters are doing what they're doing, etc, then it all looks like Lawrence blunders around like an offensively tactless moron, Holo is wondering why he's acting that way, and it's all just misdirecting you into thinking it was something more than it was. But there's an onion of subtext for you to peel at until you're blue in the face, if you want to.

I simply disagree that it's "trivial" stuff when you put it into context. Just scratching the surface: Lawrence nearly went bankrupt (not a pleasant thing in medieval times) because of a mistake he just made. Now he's going through an identity crisis and only seeing his own mistakes. And the anime is good enough to not slap you in the face with these gigantic revelations, so I'm not surprised that when it finally does and you hear the "you're in love" line, you think "that's it?"

If you stop and try to figure out what the anime isn't showing you, but just hints at, it becomes clear that it was never about the Pyrite or Amati, and that the "trivial" things are the most important ones. Why didn't Holo confront Lawrence? Why didn't she just tell him of her plan, before he went and ruined it by coming up with his own plan? Why did Diana put them through that ridiculous game in the end? Why didn't Holo realize that her actions were just as dumb as Lawrence's?

And yes, Lawrence's plan would have been a success, because Diana was willing to give him the Pyrite. The only reason she didn't was because Holo had blundered in moments before he did, and pissed her off. Holo wasn't there for Pyrite. She was there to stop Lawrence from messing up her own plan, which she never told him in the first place. The clues are all given to you; Diana's human love interest rejected her, but Diana knew that Lawrence loved Holo despite what she was, etc.

These kinds of details are what elevates the story from trivial cop-out nonsense into a story about two idiots falling in love who needed to stop flirting and start talking with each other. It's not necessarily fantastic, but it's definitely a cut above the usual romance nonsense, and it's good enough to throw in some big dumb action to keep you entertaining while it does its thing.
 
Oct 25, 2012 4:21 PM
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I enjoy abstractions and non direct forms of story telling immensely and although I feel there is sometimes too much fat within the dialogue, and that sometimes it never goes anywhere, the anime itself is very non direct. I may or may not go and rewatch the second season, mainly because I don't really rewatch shows or movies.

If nothing else I should rewatch those 3 episodes when in order to see all the subtleties that can be missed when you're wrapped up in the drama. I don';t have the background to argue with your perception but it has motivated me to at least go back and rewatch those 3 episodes.
 
Oct 29, 2012 4:16 AM

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Jan 11, 2013 10:06 PM
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i was abit confused from the merchant talk but anyway tbh i kinda got annoyed at how holo turned her back on lawrence but it was a happy ending which was good :]
 
 
Feb 10, 2013 6:57 PM

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how did lawrence win if amarty sold the pyrita before the prices went down?
Modified by felipekorbes, Feb 10, 2013 7:02 PM
 
 
Feb 10, 2013 7:06 PM
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felipekorbes said:
how did lawrence won if amarty sold the pyrita before the prices went down?


Because he didn't sell enough before the prices went down. He was selling it off slowly, because selling it off too quickly would crash the market. Lawrence didn't care about that, and crashed the market simply so Amarti wouldn't win, not to make money (as Amarti assumed).
 
Feb 10, 2013 9:59 PM

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BashZeStampeedo said:
felipekorbes said:
how did lawrence won if amarty sold the pyrita before the prices went down?


Because he didn't sell enough before the prices went down. He was selling it off slowly, because selling it off too quickly would crash the market. Lawrence didn't care about that, and crashed the market simply so Amarti wouldn't win, not to make money (as Amarti assumed).


I thought somehting like that, but now all is clear, thanks for the help.
 
May 5, 2013 3:01 PM

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Great episode. Though the love confession wasn't as direct as I wanted, and no kiss yet.
 
May 15, 2013 9:10 AM

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This was a nice episode. I really did enjoy it. Cant wait to see more of Horo.
 
May 15, 2013 8:02 PM

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I LOVED this episode!!

I've been giving Lawrence too much credit and Holo not enough. She was looking out for him the whole time and believed in him to pick up on her clues. While I do think she was speaking from the heart in the hotel room, she still didn't want them to separate - for her to be alone again. Lawrence, on the other hand, didn't believe in her, which he admitted. The line that Holo said perfectly summed it up: (Paraphrased) "I know we met recently but I thought our bond wasn't that shallow". Lawrence really is a slow/dense guy but at least Holo is changing him so that he is able to see things more from a life perspective than a business one.

I'm glad Holo was there to hear the things Lawrence said about her during his talk with Deena. I'm sure she knows he was talking about her being his "cargo" that he couldn't leave behind. Also, his question on gods and humans mating. If I was him when Holo said "please me gentle with me", I probably would have c*me right then XD

Next episode looks like a more relaxed and fun one. Can't wait to see more of them together
-What do you mean life doesn't work like my Chinese cartoons!?
 
May 16, 2013 12:33 PM
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Now you're giving Holo too much credit, phantom19 :)

Think about what she had to have been doing this whole time, and how little she involved herself. If Lawrence is dense, then what does that make her?
 
May 31, 2013 11:56 AM

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I thought Holo was gonna snap when the guard commented on her tail being cheap quality fur.
 
 
Jul 29, 2013 11:09 AM

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Gyahh!
I really didn't feel like the resolution to the duel was enough for me! I wanted Amarti to be humiliated and thrown out of town and then eaten by Holo!

All of this was well made up for by the last bit.


I want a kiss!!! Stop the beating around the bush and at least touch noses or something!
 
Nov 12, 2013 8:00 PM

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And the most stressful arc is over. Thank the lord. I, too, doubted Holo when I shouldn't have. She always comes out on top! I <3 her so much..

 
Nov 16, 2013 5:02 PM

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I found it so stupid that Lawrence had no faith in Horo. I knew she would be scheming something, she is the wise and proud Horo after all. But seeing her make her grand entrance made it all worthwhile. Loved, loved, loved this episode. The Horo and Lawrence moment at the end made everything perfect.

One thing I really don't like about this season is that there are so many flashbacks and referrals to the previous season. They are really repetitive and in some cases quite unnecessary.
Pirates are evil? The Marines are righteous? These terms have always changed throughout the course of history! Kids who have never seen peace and kids who have never seen war have different values! Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right! This very place is neutral ground! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!
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Dec 8, 2013 8:09 PM
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Phew it was all just an act. I thought my heart wouldve burst out my chest from all the anticipation
 
Jan 13, 2014 9:50 PM

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Awwwwwwnnnnnnn :)

Now I feel bad to have doubt about Holo... :(

So Diana was another deity and it was Holo her mysterious buyer. For some reason, I had some suspicion, but the thing that was buging me and is still buging me is where did she find all the money to buy all this pyrite? Did she told her that Lawrence would pay for all the expense?

Lawrence reaction when she said that she even heard his stupid question was hilarious and so cute xD
It was a very sweet ending :)
«Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.»
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Jan 15, 2014 7:35 AM
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minouneetzoe said:
the thing that was buging me and is still buging me is where did she find all the money to buy all this pyrite? Did she told her that Lawrence would pay for all the expense?


Holo only went to Diana to get her to tell Lawrence that Yoitsu might still not be destroyed, because she was mad that he wasn't talking to her and overthinking things on his own. Diana said no, and came up with her own idea because she realized that Holo was doing exactly the same thing to Lawrence (remember, Diana had fallen in love with a human priest who didn't reciprocate her love, so she would probably be annoyed that Holo was screwing around when she had a human who obviously loved her).

From Holo's perspective, Diana could either give Lawrence the pyrite and he would learn nothing, or she could give Amarti the pyrite and ruin everything, or she could give Holo the pyrite and Holo could save the day (and save face, because she didn't have to tell Lawrence the whole truth). Lawrence, of course, just took Holo's word for it and took all of the blame because he was just glad it was over (and he thinks Holo is incapable of acting the way she did).

Or, if you don't like that interpretation and want Holo to be as perfect as Lawrence thinks she is, then Holo simply bought the Pyrite the same way Lawrence bought his from Amarti, and Diana decided to let her so that both she and Lawrence would learn a harsh lesson in how stupid they were being.
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Jan 15, 2014 7:38 AM
 
Feb 27, 2014 5:20 AM

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This "arc" was really great, and i really like most of the supporting characters and their roles in helping Lawrence throughout the story, especially Mark and Diana. So far, 2nd season looks so much better than the 1st, and i hope from the next ep onward it will stay this way.


and still waiting patiently for a 3rd season of Spice & Wolf :'|
 
Feb 27, 2014 8:20 PM
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This episode had me sitting up-right on my bed at 4am in the morning with my heart racing. Grr, that damn market too! FU, hands-down the latest anime to have me right off the edge.
"Once you miss the opportunity to say something, the words become increasingly toxic."
 
 
Jun 3, 2014 7:06 PM

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horo x lawrence ftw
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Jun 13, 2014 7:49 PM

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THANK GOD. I couldn't take the tension between those 2 this arc, I felt like I watched the past 3-4 episodes while holding my breath the entire time. It was frustrating that Horo was planning to leave Lawrence (even tho it was a trick), and it was frustrating that Lawrence won't man up to his own feelings. Best part of this show is the relationship between those 2. Show just isn't as good when Horo has almost no screentime and the tension between them is bad.
 
Jun 13, 2014 8:42 PM

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Such suspense! What a great end to this arc (or, at least, I think it's the end O__O), I'm so glad that Holo and Lawrence are back together! :3
Also, screw that blonde-haired kid.
Life has meaning.
 
Nov 26, 2014 4:27 PM

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So in the end, Deanna was the mastermind behind the plot. That's some pretty brilliant writing; the ending makes more sense the more you think about it.

There's no way one could expect Lawrence to definitively assume Holo was still on his side given her emotional outburst. I do appreciate that she was trying to reconcile, but she was being far too stubborn and indirect- signing a marriage contract to make him angry enough to confront her? What the crap?

Seriously, she's as foolish as Lawrence is sometimes. Haha.

Anyway, while I do wish she would fess up to her own contributions to the problem, I'm glad it worked out. Major props to the writers for using Deanna's character in such a meaningful way. After all that, I'm pretty comfortable with assuming the best of Holo going forward.

In the end, it came down to what currycurry and I agreed on when this first started- they just needed to talk it out. Still, the misunderstandings lead to good character growth, so the time spent on this development wasn't wasted.

Awesome.
 
Dec 2, 2014 1:32 AM

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Ahh~ Holo never ceases to amaze me.. So she figured out Lawrence's plan (more or less) and set up Amarty into a pinch.. That, is WISE indeed.. What a sly and mischievous wolf~ It's scary to cross path with this girl lol..

After the bitter taste that the last EP gave me (when Holo was beside Amarty), the second half of this EP made up for it and more.. I can never get enough of Holo's teasing and her interaction with Lawrence.. I'm glad everything is back to normal.. Oh wait, maybe more than normal? 'Cos their relationship certainly rose drastically.. Well anyways, I'm happy with this development..
 
 
Dec 2, 2014 12:13 PM
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That planning and that level of trust.
Never doubt the wise wolf...

But I must admit, I would've definitely acted similar to Lawrence's thinking...
 
Jan 3, 2015 8:01 PM
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rabbitpoets said:
Hmm, more Horo definitely makes for a much better episode, and it's not surprising Horo was the one who bought the pyrite and they ended up back together. But I kinda feel disappointed, because the way Horo explained it made it seem like a lot of the drama over the last couple episodes was unnecessary.
^This.


 
Jan 10, 2015 9:43 PM

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What do you guys think Horo wanted to say when she said "That time I was upstairs and..." "Nevermind, continue!" seeming embarrassed by what she was about to say?
Whao.
 
Jan 11, 2015 9:27 AM
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iZBlazed said:
What do you guys think Horo wanted to say when she said "That time I was upstairs and..." "Nevermind, continue!" seeming embarrassed by what she was about to say?


She purposely wanted to piss him so he would run up the stairs and confront her, because it would hurt her pride too much to confront him instead or just let him think things over and come back to her in due time. Of course that was a mistake, and it only ended up wounding her pride even more and escalating things beyond her control, as we saw.
 
Jan 27, 2015 9:31 PM

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I'll just say I feel a relief.

(And I'll just leave this here for the whole arc.)
 
Feb 10, 2015 5:32 AM
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I feel a bit cheated to be honest. All this drama was for naught. She had it all planned out. Then again, Holo is the wise old wolf so I shouldn't underestimate her. I'm glad Amarty got his comeuppance.
Lawrence is not much of a merchant I must say. He makes some very foolish decisions. Acts cool and composed when he should should show some passion, and loses his composure when he should be cool and composed.
"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

 
Feb 10, 2015 9:14 AM
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Farabeuf said:
Lawrence is not much of a merchant I must say. He makes some very foolish decisions. Acts cool and composed when he should should show some passion, and loses his composure when he should be cool and composed.


I disagree. Merchants aren't robots, and Lawrence isn't some wish-fulfillment perfect character. He's a fine merchant when he isn't being lead around the nose by Holo (or trying to impress her). If we're going to apply such standards to Lawrence, then Holo is an equally terrible Wise Wolf. But that's part of the fun of Spice and Wolf - you get to see smart people acting like twits because they're in love.
 
Feb 11, 2015 4:03 AM
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BashZeStampeedo said:
Farabeuf said:
Lawrence is not much of a merchant I must say. He makes some very foolish decisions. Acts cool and composed when he should should show some passion, and loses his composure when he should be cool and composed.


I disagree. Merchants aren't robots, and Lawrence isn't some wish-fulfillment perfect character. He's a fine merchant when he isn't being lead around the nose by Holo (or trying to impress her). If we're going to apply such standards to Lawrence, then Holo is an equally terrible Wise Wolf. But that's part of the fun of Spice and Wolf - you get to see smart people acting like twits because they're in love.


Oh, no doubt that Holo has plenty of flaws too. In that sense they are both terrific and highly enjoyable characters. Gifted and flawed in equal measure (which I prefer to the current trend of flawless MC's). I just think that a lot of the "operations" that Lawrence does sometimes come closer to gambling that to trading and hence my low opinion of his merchantile talents. But then again as you rightly point out, people do act like twits because they in love.
"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

 
 
Feb 11, 2015 7:36 PM
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Farabeuf said:
But then again as you rightly point out, people do act like twits because they in love.


Exactly. Watch how Lawrence seems to want to impress Holo at every turn without even realizing it, making every wrong business decision because of it (especially in the second arc when he lets his greed take over, despite being so guarded in the first story). Then watch Holo make every wrong decision in this arc in Kumerson, and yet still be unable to admit it, making Lawrence take the blame for everything despite her own actions driving him to being even stupider. Sometimes it's the little things :)
 
Mar 1, 2015 3:47 AM

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Satisfying conclusion, I'm impressed
 
Mar 15, 2015 9:48 AM

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Finally, all of this unnecessary drama is over now. I think the best part about this arc was the confirmation of the existence of other deities besides wolf deities like Holo. I wonder if they'll encounter more during their travels.
 
May 3, 2015 3:20 PM

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So it was all an act by Horo ? Brilliant. ( take that you blonde brat :P ) That ending scene + dat ost = amazing.

Great episode overall, much more enjoyable when Horo is getting some screentime.
 
May 8, 2015 10:55 AM

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Douchey blond kid gets owned, Lawrence and Holo are back together, all is right with the world once more.

Seriously though, Holo just makes these episodes so much better, I'm glad shes back. It was also nice to find out that Holo was actually helping Lawrence the entire time, and them making up was sweet.

I had also guessed the Alchemist lady wasn't human, though I gotta say Id much prefer a wolf deity over a bird. At least Holo doesn't seem to shed everywhere lol.
 
May 14, 2015 3:55 PM

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I'm so happy, fuck Amarty I hate him.
Hi there
 
 
Jun 9, 2015 11:42 AM

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The last 3 episodes were tense as hell. i'm glad all ended up good for both of them but ..a hell of an emotional ride, having to root for Lawrence and Holo.
 
Oct 15, 2015 6:59 AM

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Honestly I don't see a happy ending at this point. Even if they were to become an item he would still eventually die and Holo would be all alone again. I don't want a bittersweet ending. I want a happy ending, dang it! >.<
"It's a tragic misunderstanding that could have been easily avoided if he just finished his sentence in time!"

— Richard Watterson (The Amazing World of Gumball)
 
Nov 1, 2015 5:51 PM

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This arc was really getting to me, I had no idea what to do. I felt as if I was the one about to lose the love of my life Thank you lawrence and Holo <3 . The bird lady was a BIRD LADY O_O wuttt. Hahahhahaha I love the fact that Holo her when lawrance asked if there were any pagan stories about gods and humans mating hahahahaha that was awesome!!! closes holo has come to hearing a confession
[/quote]
 
Dec 13, 2015 3:51 AM

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I really enjoyed the intensity of this arc and I'm glad they got back together and seem to have gotten closer but.....

the drama during these past few episodes seems overly complicated and unnecessary now. It would have been a lot easier if Lawrence was simply straight forward with Holo. It was still a nice ride though.
 
Dec 29, 2015 6:31 PM

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One thing that is important to note is, that for Horo, the whole situation wasn't as bad it it presented itself to Lawrence. After all, even if Amarty had won, she still could have said "thanks, but no" and walked off with Lawrence anyways. They even mentioned that possibility now and then.

Heck, that actually might have been a better outcome. Basically, Lawrence and Horo would have one thousand silver more, thats it. Of course, the emotions involved didn't make that solution viable..

Also, Deanna being a bird deity or similar explains quite some things. Her knowledge of such stories, especially about mating between gods and humans, why Horo was showing off her ears and tail while she was there, it might also be the reason why Deanna gave the stones to Horo or agreed to help Lawrence.
Modified by NwAurion, Dec 29, 2015 6:37 PM
 
 
Jan 4, 2016 5:54 PM
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Awesome episode! Lawrence should tell Horo what he feel..
 
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