Ookami to Koushinryou II Episode 6 Discussion
Aug 26, 2012 8:41 AM
Sep 28, 2012 8:22 AM
Oct 17, 2012 2:20 AM
Horo being on Lawrence's side the entire time felt like a cope out by the author.
Just my personal opinion.
Pretty much how I feel. The whole build up was for nothing, no repercussions for the actions of anyone. Everything just went back to normal. Also it would be nice if Lawrence would solve a problem by himself for once.
Maybe if you had access to both sides it would be better, but to represent it fully from Lawrences side as this huge, dramatic event only to have it end with 0 repercussions is silly.
Oct 18, 2012 4:48 PM
It was a bit overwrought, but there were repercussions; Holo learned that she had to start paying attention to Lawrence, he learned that he loved her, and Amati was given the beating he so soundly deserved for being a pompous twit to everyone in town.
Also, if you pay attention, Lawrence DID solve his own "problem". Holo didn't help him at all this time, and the only reason he lost was because Diana gave Holo the Pyrite to mess with her (it wasn't that Holo went there for the Pyrite). Lawrence beat Amati on his own, and had no idea that Holo had set everything up in the first place, because she didn't tell him.
If nothing else, it's worth the time to consider what Holo was doing the whole time.. it adds an extra bit of amusement that might elevate it from being a disappointment. She was pretty much making the same mistakes he was, just for different reasons.
Oct 19, 2012 5:44 PM
Sometimes my pessimism doesn't translate well enough. The whole basis for the show is the interaction between Holo and Lawrence, while also focusing on them as characters. You give us the potential for one to be taken out of the equation and that's pretty dramatic. Drama in media is an illusion that is done to captivate an audience, to make them come back for more. However when you build this grand set, this elaborate stage in which the foundation of what makes a story interesting is destroyed then you need to have an end that feels satisfying.
The realizations that Lawrence and Holo had (in your words) are trivial, and cheap when looked at in comparison to the deal that was on the table over those 3 episodes (you yourself also mention the overly dramatic nature of those 3 episodes). In the end the outcome felt cheap and small. Any drama left in the show was easy to see through.
But that is the nature of most stories. The people who don't always like happy endings, or want some weight to the conclusion of such drama is probably quite slim. If Holo/Lawrence truly split then there would be no show, or there would at least be a decrease in viewers.
AS for Lawrence fixing the problem he didn't actually fix it per say. He had the blueprint, or idea. But it was based around many variables that could go wrong, and as mentioned he could still be outwitted by Armati.
At some point I'll probably go back and rewatch the series mainly out of enjoyment but also to get greater clarification on some points.
Modified by failedtoopen, Oct 19, 2012 5:49 PM
Oct 19, 2012 8:50 PM
You're perfectly right. If you just take what's being presented at face-value and don't actually piece together what's going on behind the scenes, why the characters are doing what they're doing, etc, then it all looks like Lawrence blunders around like an offensively tactless moron, Holo is wondering why he's acting that way, and it's all just misdirecting you into thinking it was something more than it was. But there's an onion of subtext for you to peel at until you're blue in the face, if you want to.
I simply disagree that it's "trivial" stuff when you put it into context. Just scratching the surface: Lawrence nearly went bankrupt (not a pleasant thing in medieval times) because of a mistake he just made. Now he's going through an identity crisis and only seeing his own mistakes. And the anime is good enough to not slap you in the face with these gigantic revelations, so I'm not surprised that when it finally does and you hear the "you're in love" line, you think "that's it?"
If you stop and try to figure out what the anime isn't showing you, but just hints at, it becomes clear that it was never about the Pyrite or Amati, and that the "trivial" things are the most important ones. Why didn't Holo confront Lawrence? Why didn't she just tell him of her plan, before he went and ruined it by coming up with his own plan? Why did Diana put them through that ridiculous game in the end? Why didn't Holo realize that her actions were just as dumb as Lawrence's?
And yes, Lawrence's plan would have been a success, because Diana was willing to give him the Pyrite. The only reason she didn't was because Holo had blundered in moments before he did, and pissed her off. Holo wasn't there for Pyrite. She was there to stop Lawrence from messing up her own plan, which she never told him in the first place. The clues are all given to you; Diana's human love interest rejected her, but Diana knew that Lawrence loved Holo despite what she was, etc.
These kinds of details are what elevates the story from trivial cop-out nonsense into a story about two idiots falling in love who needed to stop flirting and start talking with each other. It's not necessarily fantastic, but it's definitely a cut above the usual romance nonsense, and it's good enough to throw in some big dumb action to keep you entertaining while it does its thing.
Oct 25, 2012 4:21 PM
I enjoy abstractions and non direct forms of story telling immensely and although I feel there is sometimes too much fat within the dialogue, and that sometimes it never goes anywhere, the anime itself is very non direct. I may or may not go and rewatch the second season, mainly because I don't really rewatch shows or movies.
If nothing else I should rewatch those 3 episodes when in order to see all the subtleties that can be missed when you're wrapped up in the drama. I don';t have the background to argue with your perception but it has motivated me to at least go back and rewatch those 3 episodes.
Oct 29, 2012 4:16 AM
Jan 11, 2013 10:06 PM
Feb 10, 2013 6:57 PM
Feb 10, 2013 7:06 PM
how did lawrence won if amarty sold the pyrita before the prices went down?
Because he didn't sell enough before the prices went down. He was selling it off slowly, because selling it off too quickly would crash the market. Lawrence didn't care about that, and crashed the market simply so Amarti wouldn't win, not to make money (as Amarti assumed).
Feb 10, 2013 9:59 PM
May 5, 2013 3:01 PM
May 15, 2013 9:10 AM
May 15, 2013 8:02 PM
May 16, 2013 12:33 PM
May 31, 2013 11:56 AM
Jul 29, 2013 11:09 AM
Nov 12, 2013 8:00 PM
Nov 16, 2013 5:02 PM
Dec 8, 2013 8:09 PM
Jan 13, 2014 9:50 PM
Jan 15, 2014 7:35 AM
the thing that was buging me and is still buging me is where did she find all the money to buy all this pyrite? Did she told her that Lawrence would pay for all the expense?
Holo only went to Diana to get her to tell Lawrence that Yoitsu might still not be destroyed, because she was mad that he wasn't talking to her and overthinking things on his own. Diana said no, and came up with her own idea because she realized that Holo was doing exactly the same thing to Lawrence (remember, Diana had fallen in love with a human priest who didn't reciprocate her love, so she would probably be annoyed that Holo was screwing around when she had a human who obviously loved her).
From Holo's perspective, Diana could either give Lawrence the pyrite and he would learn nothing, or she could give Amarti the pyrite and ruin everything, or she could give Holo the pyrite and Holo could save the day (and save face, because she didn't have to tell Lawrence the whole truth). Lawrence, of course, just took Holo's word for it and took all of the blame because he was just glad it was over (and he thinks Holo is incapable of acting the way she did).
Or, if you don't like that interpretation and want Holo to be as perfect as Lawrence thinks she is, then Holo simply bought the Pyrite the same way Lawrence bought his from Amarti, and Diana decided to let her so that both she and Lawrence would learn a harsh lesson in how stupid they were being.
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Jan 15, 2014 7:38 AM
Feb 27, 2014 5:20 AM
Feb 27, 2014 8:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
This episode had me sitting up-right on my bed at 4am in the morning with my heart racing. Grr, that damn market too! FU, hands-down the latest anime to have me right off the edge.
"Once you miss the opportunity to say something, the words become increasingly toxic."
Jun 3, 2014 7:06 PM
Jun 13, 2014 7:49 PM
Jun 13, 2014 8:42 PM
Nov 26, 2014 4:27 PM
Dec 2, 2014 1:32 AM
Dec 2, 2014 12:13 PM
Jan 3, 2015 8:01 PM
Jan 10, 2015 9:43 PM
Jan 11, 2015 9:27 AM
What do you guys think Horo wanted to say when she said "That time I was upstairs and..." "Nevermind, continue!" seeming embarrassed by what she was about to say?
She purposely wanted to piss him so he would run up the stairs and confront her, because it would hurt her pride too much to confront him instead or just let him think things over and come back to her in due time. Of course that was a mistake, and it only ended up wounding her pride even more and escalating things beyond her control, as we saw.
Jan 27, 2015 9:31 PM
Feb 10, 2015 5:32 AM
Feb 10, 2015 9:14 AM
Lawrence is not much of a merchant I must say. He makes some very foolish decisions. Acts cool and composed when he should should show some passion, and loses his composure when he should be cool and composed.
I disagree. Merchants aren't robots, and Lawrence isn't some wish-fulfillment perfect character. He's a fine merchant when he isn't being lead around the nose by Holo (or trying to impress her). If we're going to apply such standards to Lawrence, then Holo is an equally terrible Wise Wolf. But that's part of the fun of Spice and Wolf - you get to see smart people acting like twits because they're in love.
Feb 11, 2015 4:03 AM
Feb 11, 2015 7:36 PM
But then again as you rightly point out, people do act like twits because they in love.
Exactly. Watch how Lawrence seems to want to impress Holo at every turn without even realizing it, making every wrong business decision because of it (especially in the second arc when he lets his greed take over, despite being so guarded in the first story). Then watch Holo make every wrong decision in this arc in Kumerson, and yet still be unable to admit it, making Lawrence take the blame for everything despite her own actions driving him to being even stupider. Sometimes it's the little things :)
Mar 1, 2015 3:47 AM
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Nov 1, 2015 5:51 PM
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Jan 4, 2016 5:54 PM