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Poll: Ookami to Koushinryou II Episode 6 Discussion


Jan 7, 2010 8:10 PM
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damn tht was quite the episode.
 
 
Feb 1, 2010 1:40 PM

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I am going to say something very original that no one thought of before "I am glad the problem was solved"

She is such a tease... that's why we all love her, right?
 
Feb 7, 2010 12:53 PM

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God damn, awesome arc! One more "The problem was solved, and I'm very happy" ^^

werr-y said:
She is such a tease... that's why we all love her, right?

Yes, Lawrence hasn't enough for her. She really like to tease us)
 
Jun 11, 2010 7:14 PM

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I don't really understand this arc but it's quite entertaining.
 
Jun 25, 2010 11:02 AM

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Well we all saw this coming , didn't we ?
 
Jul 16, 2010 11:45 PM

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Well I didn't see it coming. Maybe if I had taken time to reflect on it between episodes, but I got so excited I flushed this ark down in one go. Now it's past 1 am, but I am very satisfied :)

A bit generic, but heck, it was so exceedingly well done that I can forgive that. On to the next ark!
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Aug 21, 2010 6:21 AM
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poor lawrence always being abused. XD lovely ending lovely horo
 
 
Sep 1, 2010 4:14 PM

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What the unforgivable words Amanty said? I think it was something about Lawrence.

And what's a beautiful tale!
 
Oct 5, 2010 6:48 PM

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Thank heavens all the drama is over with. DX It was getting painful.

Even if it was all an act, I still don't like that Horo put Lawrence through so much [mental] agony. It was awesome, I have to admit, when Horo joined Lawrence when he went up to do the final sale. :)

All in all, a great episode! And finally one that ends on a happy note. :D
 
Oct 5, 2010 6:52 PM

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I so knew that Holo was plotting something when she disappeared from Amati's side.
I had faith in her :)

Aw I feel bad for the bird woman (Denna think she was called) :(
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Nov 16, 2010 1:06 PM

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I dont get why Horo didnt told Lawr that she wasn't going to stay with Am. If he would have known that at the end she would still end with him, he would have relax after that fight and earn the money and say good bye to Am.
~_~ anyways i good episode
huh?
 
Nov 18, 2010 2:32 AM
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rabbitpoets said:
Hmm, more Horo definitely makes for a much better episode, and it's not surprising Horo was the one who bought the pyrite and they ended up back together. But I kinda feel disappointed, because the way Horo explained it made it seem like a lot of the drama over the last couple episodes was unnecessary.



that's why they explained that

lawrence should have talked to holo instead of doing things on his own..

and why do people keep calling here "Horo" even in the anime

they spell it "Holo"

didn't you guys see the document?
 
Nov 18, 2010 7:48 PM
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Yeah, the whole point was that both of them needed to actually try talking to each other. Both were pretty much equally at fault, despite the fact that it's easy to pin the blame on Lawrence because we only see his point of view (he's happy to accept the blame, and she's happy to let him).

It was pure drama, solely for the sake of both of them realizing (to some degree) that they share a special bond that goes beyond fun and games, or what either of them obviously thought they had. The results are felt in the second half of the season.

@Jeetard: Holo, Horo.. it doesn't matter, does it? No need to fan those flames anymore :)
 
Nov 28, 2010 12:06 PM

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Hated the episode. Horo was such a bitch. Damn it, it might been her plan. But what a mess lawrence was it.
 
 
Dec 22, 2010 8:59 PM

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Thank god the whole drama stuff is over,at least for now...I was beginning to seriously hate Lawrence in the past episodes,for not being able to properly convey his feelings,and instead being such a coward...
 
Dec 28, 2010 11:26 AM
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DarthNicolas said:
Thank god the whole drama stuff is over,at least for now...I was beginning to seriously hate Lawrence in the past episodes,for not being able to properly convey his feelings,and instead being such a coward...


That's a little harsh, given that Holo was also being a coward about conveying her own feelings, and was mostly responsible for the series of events that caused the drama. Not to mention that he was just coming off of nearly going bankrupt (because of trying to impress Holo), etc, so he had good reason to be a depressed and insecure.
 
 
Jan 5, 2011 6:57 PM

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merle_noir said:
Thank heavens all the drama is over with. DX It was getting painful.

Even if it was all an act, I still don't like that Horo put Lawrence through so much [mental] agony. It was awesome, I have to admit, when Horo joined Lawrence when he went up to do the final sale. :)


well his whole life, he has been thinking everything in terms of business, but he has to know, that there are somthing that money truely can't buy, and he also learned that even in business, u need "friends" or else you'll fail, weather u profit or not.
well just my opinion, im glad they made up, loved the line "will u be gentle" and "i'll work it out when im drunk" lol


 
Jan 17, 2011 11:52 AM

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A lot people have been saying that whatever Amati said that made Horo angry was that he said something about her that offended her, but i think he said something bad about Lawrence and she didn't like it

 
Jan 17, 2011 5:50 PM
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I lean towards the idea that it wasn't any single thing he did or said that pissed her off, because just about everything in this story was bound to piss her off on some level. And just about everything Amati says or does is likely to eat away at her and make her rage more and more.

But if he did say one last thing to finally drive her over the edge, I wouldn't be surprised if it was while he was proudly telling her about how he just decided to ruin Lawrence completely, after having let himself be baited by Lawrence into an obvious trap, thus forcing Holo to beg Deanna so Lawrence won't make a fool of himself and simultaneously ruin her plans.

The more I think about it, the more I laugh at the picture of Holo trying to contain herself, and trying to not just kill Amati and Lawrence for being such willing tools.
 
Jan 19, 2011 10:18 AM
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I read some of the comments and I think people are really viewing another show or have completely different sub translations.

I don't get the arc complaining either. This was really about Lawrence and his feelings toward Holo. And it does a good job with the situation presented. Some of you people make it sound like Holo ran to Kumerson and divised this whole thing prior to them getting there.

As for her contemplating leaving L (after Holo read the letter), there was no doubt that she still harbored strong feelings toward L. Never did I think she'd join Amarti (of course, the story would end if that happened).

And I enjoyed it more when the both put down there fools gold. They both thought the same thing (visiting the Alchemists - crash market). It didn't prove Holo's Freedom or $ to pay her debt to L (as some of you have written). It was to show the solidarity between this couple (and to a degree - help L out because he got them into this mess by letting Amarti & the other merchants bully him into the contract by not letting go of his stupid pride)

What really irritates me about Lawrence is his inability to "speak" his feelings. He's great at showing them to Holo, but when it comes to words, he's downright awful. (ex. When Holo asks him, "What am i to you?"). Then when he finally realizes how much Holo means to him and will do anything to keep her by his side, he says "Now I realize what I should have said). But at the end, when they reconcile. He's still as vague as ever ("I'll travel with you to Yoitze(sp?)") --- gee Lawrence, what a guy you are, thanks. I guess the writers need to drag out the budding romance for the story's sake. But, they need to stop making him looked "shocked" or "gasping for air" all the time.

I like the first arc, pretty intense at moments.
 
Jan 19, 2011 10:36 AM

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soh_vet said:
What really irritates me about Lawrence is his inability to "speak" his feelings.

That's the weakness of this season. It seems writers are afraid to progress the romances further and show us what happens after the confession and the first kiss. Laurence's inability and often harsh responses are merely a plot device to keep the romance in a loop.
 
Jan 19, 2011 3:35 PM
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The writers make it clear that Lawrence and Holo are both afraid to be honest about their feelings, and that it's not for the usual reasons you'd get in a romance anime. It's just difficult to tell the difference because the scenarios are every bit as cheesy as you'd get in your typical anime, and we're lacking much of the perspective that we probably should be getting.

That's what I think is the biggest weakness. Lawrence KNOWS how pathetic he is, and is constantly working on improving himself despite Holo's often-ascerbic attitudes and the fact that his life's all business. The sense of his development is more subtle than in the novels, and it's painful because he's a very meek and pessimistic individual. He's so self-deprecating that many people actually believe it when he thinks everything's his fault, and when he thinks that Holo's a perfect being compared to him.

Even though it may feel like the story is artificially prolonging our misery, it bears repeating that the two characters aren't being honest with each other for very good reasons.. this isn't just two kids who don't know any better, it's about two adult characters who genuinely don't believe they will be together very long, have very real barriers between them, and are both constantly trying to avoid screwing up what they already have, because it's the happiest they've ever been.
 
Jan 19, 2011 5:03 PM

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BashZeStampeedo said:
.. , it's about two adult characters who genuinely don't believe they will be together very long, have very real barriers between them, and are both constantly trying to avoid screwing up what they already have, because it's the happiest they've ever been.

 
Jan 19, 2011 6:34 PM
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soh_vet said:
And I enjoyed it more when the both put down there fools gold. They both thought the same thing (visiting the Alchemists - crash market).


Actually, the point of the whole story was that Holo DID NOT want to crash the market (she went to Deanna to ask her to fabricate a lie to get Lawrence to talk to her, she didn't go there to buy Pyrite). Holo had set up the whole game with Amati, so Amati would pay Lawrence 1000 gold and Holo could just walk back to Lawrence in the end - the perfect con.

Holo was in full control of the situation, after all.. she had more than enough pyrite to crash the market on her own anytime, and by her own admission she knew that Lawrence wouldn't be financially hurt by it (she was even impressed by his scheme). If she wanted to, she could have just walked up to Lawrence, said "let's sell this here Pyrite, partner" and that would be it.

So why did she ultimately sell the Pyrite? Because it was clear that Lawrence didn't realize what Holo really wanted, and that he was hoping to crash the market (otherwise he could just sell Pyrite slowly and make more money that way). For her to not join him after he purposely went through all of that and gave up the profit, would just make her the villain.

soh_vet said:
But at the end, when they reconcile. He's still as vague as ever. gee Lawrence, what a guy you are, thanks


Yeah, he's exactly the guy she deserves :) It's all a matter of perspective, of course, but Holo's no better than he is. She demands he answer such a question, but she sure as hell doesn't want to answer it herself. The whole story they are dancing around each other, unable to be honest and just speak to each other. It's obvious with Lawrence, because we're following him around.
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Jan 19, 2011 6:38 PM
 
 
Jan 20, 2011 5:47 AM
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thanks for clearing up the pyrite scheme. (So Holo got Amarti to confront L in front of the merchants? It's a clever way to make money and get L to show his feelings - although a bit harsh on him) I do get frustrated with the way the writers back and forth L decision making on his feeling for horo. (ex. wants her by his side or wants to drop her off in a town near Yoitz(sp?)) But i get it, they cant' just come outright in S1 and declare their love for each other. The tension between the two is set (and obvious), but it's the teasing, bickering and playfulness (with hints of sexual tension) that we (I) enjoy with this couple.

Either way, I"m still excited to see where this prolonged romance ends (even if they don't continue the anime, I understand they are ending the LN next month, so hopefully there will be some closure (good closure of course) and it just doesn't end abruptly - like coming off another deal and riding off into the sunset)

Do you know the what the differences are between the Manga and Light Novels? Or is the manga basically the LN with more chapters?
Modified by soh_vet, Jan 20, 2011 6:00 AM
 
Jan 20, 2011 7:03 AM
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That's the gist of it, Holo used her charms to fool Amati into thinking that she was only with Lawrence because she owed him 1000 gold, and to kick him into "moron mode". Whether it was her intent to get Amati to try to "win her" like that, she sure played it that way in the story. Her primary motivations were probably for self-entertainment and to force Lawrence to pay more attention to her.

Lawrence's "back and forth" certainly is annoying (though I find Holo's implied behavior just as annoying). I'm just glad that it's done with some idea of why - it's not just standard anime hormonal nonsense and it never really "stands still" like they're stuck in this mode. These are two horribly lonely people who are genuinely scared of taking things to the next level, and both are way too practical and set in their ways to change overnight. They're also painfully aware of the difference in life span between them, and Lawrence doesn't want to hurt Holo in the long-run (she gets very emotional about the past, after all).

As for the manga, so far is basically the same as the light novels (with some fanservice) and i think it's only had one extra: a short alternate-universe side story. I haven't noticed any real differences so far.
 
Jan 20, 2011 8:31 AM
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nznznz said:
Yet you have those situations... (spoilered)


I don't recall him ever seriously thinking that? There is that one scene in episode one of this season where he asks her whether she could go to Yoitsu on her own if he gets her "close enough", but it was obvious that it was just half-drunkenly thinking out loud. He didn't really wash away any progress - he only felt he had. It was the first real moment when he got scared of losing Holo, and foreshadowed the rest of the story in this arc.
 
Jan 20, 2011 3:45 PM

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I might be mistaken, since I haven't found the time to watch it a 2nd time, but if I recall correctly it wasn't just a question if she could make it alone and Holo was pretty devasted for him even asking.
But I did love the mood, that the relation could break up anytime and Holo's companionship isn't set in stone. This arc did a great job of showing that fear of Lawrence.

Thanks to your posts I will take a look at the mangas to get some more insight for my rewatch. I like those subtle meanings hidden between the lines. So, thank you for that.
 
Jan 20, 2011 5:42 PM
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Yeah, this is the type of story that is well worth reading twice, because it doesn't go out of it's way to spell everything out for you.

The first time I watched the series I was just having trouble enough keeping up with Lawrence's point of view - but the second time around I actively tried to watch for Holo's point of view (what was she probably doing, how was she really feeling, etc), and I must admit that it changed my perspective of the series a great deal.

Even Deanna's role is surprisingly open-ended and intriguing. What was her motivation? Just desiring some entertainment? Or was she annoyed and/or jealous? Was she trying to hit *both* Holo and Lawrence with a cluebat? Did she intentionally put Holo in a position where she had to make it obvious to Lawrence how she felt, or run the risk of losing him by doing nothing? Surprisingly fun to speculate.

Edit: As for Holo being devastated, she bounces back really quickly from those moments. She's just got a bit of a hair-trigger having been isolated for hundreds of years. Lawrence had to learn that the hard way in this part of the story, just like she had to learn that her means of "intelligent communication" is often as vague and filled with double-meanings just as her teasing is.
Modified by BashZeStampeedo, Jan 20, 2011 6:08 PM
 
 
Jan 21, 2011 5:52 AM
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I know it's been implied that Diana (hulu) was sort of jealous of holo (and it would be understandable). But this isn't implied in the anime and the conversation revealed between the two is rather short. What was the "bothersome plan" holo refered to about Diana and what did holo try to "get by" Diana, but couldn't? How much of her story did she tell her (from the beginning or just from kumerson?) Is this put into greater detail in the LN or is this just fan speculation?

I wouldn't be surprised if we see Diana again in later chapters. Not only is she a deity, but she seems to have the knowledge they are looking for regarding relationships. Maybe she'll know a solution.
 
Jan 21, 2011 9:05 AM
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Most of what you'll read about is pure fan speculation based on what little we do know (from what I remember in the novels):
- Holo's side of the story: Deanna told her to relate everything that had happened, then Lawrence showed up and Deanna changed her mind and came up with her own plan.
- When Lawrence tells Deanna that his fight is with "his cargo" which "he can't afford to lose", Deanna reacts by blowing into her hair as though stunned to hear those words.
- Holo has precisely what Deanna couldn't have: a human she obviously has feelings for, who obviously has feelings for her, and who accepts her for what she really is.
- Lawrence and Holo *both* came to Deanna for help (at the same time no less) rather than just facing each other.
 
Jan 30, 2011 5:57 PM

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wasn't that kid she send to talk to Lawrence a hybrid? ... i mean... he looks wierd

ill try to post a scrn shot later... maybe
huh?
 
 
Feb 20, 2011 12:57 AM

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Man when holo slammed down the bag i just couldnt help but scream yes
great episode
 
Feb 22, 2011 9:28 AM
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naww they are back together<3
 
May 12, 2011 2:38 AM

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I wonder what that kid had told Holo that make her angry?

 
 
Jul 13, 2011 7:32 PM

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Horo being on Lawrence's side the entire time felt like a cope out by the author.
Just my personal opinion.
 
Jul 14, 2011 7:10 AM
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It's strongly implied that she was partly serious, and that she just wasn't able to admit it to Lawrence. As I see it, the story insinuates that Horo got annoyed with Lawrence and set up the game with Amati as payback without fully thinking things through (both she and Lawrence were acting out of rash passion, but neither could admit it to the other).

Just like how Mark tried to get Lawrence to realize his feelings, Diana did the same to Horo by setting up that ridiculous endgame and making it look like it was Horo all along. Of course Horo would never admit any of it openly, and Lawrence is only too happy to ignore everything and take all the blame, so we get the ending we did.

It all hinges on things we can't be sure of, of course. But the fact is that she mentioned Amati did something unforgivable, implying that she chose Lawrence over Amati, and wasn't 100% on Lawrence's side the whole time.
 
Aug 6, 2011 7:02 PM

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Hmmphh.That was somehow lame.

Rated better than 1st season, ehh.Something really great is about to come..well, better be..
I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls.
 
Sep 7, 2011 3:05 PM

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I feel like I got fucking trolled hard by the anime. Was RAEGING so hard for 2-3 episodes, and I get this shit. Facepalm.
 
Dec 14, 2011 5:13 AM
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BashZeStampeedo said:

It all hinges on things we can't be sure of, of course. But the fact is that she mentioned Amati did something unforgivable, implying that she chose Lawrence over Amati, and wasn't 100% on Lawrence's side the whole time.


I don't see it that way. After re-watching the dubbed version. Her whole point of going to Diana was to get her to spread a rumor that Yoitz still exists and to make sure Lawrence caught wind of the rumor. why would she do that? She wants him to keep his promise to travel with her there (and fears his insecurities will make him leave her). That's when Lawrence knocked on the door and also why Diana stopped him from saying anything more after she heard his story ("cargo") and his question about spirits and human couples. It was a fun game for her because here she has 2 beings who share the same feelings with one another yet can't express it. she changed Horo's plan to the one we got (giving horo the pyrite and making her sell when Lawrence sells to crash the market).

Holo was scared she'd lose Lawrence. Afterward, she was furious with him when he says he thought she switched sides. I believe that shocked her and made her tail bristle in anger. She also mentions waiting for him upstairs (which she stops herself blushing) when she signed the contract, hoping he'd run to see her. What Amati said to her that was unforgivable, we'll never know, but I'll assume it had to be something bad about Lawrence. Canine's are loyal as is Holo to Lawrence (even if he let his own jealous/insecurities convolute the truth). Holo is/was always behind Lawrence 100%. but they both made a mess of things.
 
Dec 14, 2011 5:49 PM
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Before they met at Deannas, I think she was unconsciously testing Lawrence. She had ample opportunity to do what she normally would and smack sense into him (without anyone seeing her do it, including Amati). She doubted him in her moment of weakness, and that shook her to the core. It doesn't really mean she'd consider leaving with Amati, only that she needed affirmation that he was trustworthy and refused to acknowledge it.

It's even harder to buy that she was 100% loyal AFTER she heard him at Deanna's. There was no reason she couldn't face him, having heard that HE was scared, not angry. The ball was in her court, and she had all night to wake him up outside of Mark's place. I just can't think of a reason that she wouldn't face him, unless deep down she was testing Lawrence (not 100% sure about him) and rationalizing things to avoid coming to that conclusion.

Of course it seems clear-cut that she was surprised later because HER actions were interpreted as disloyalty. But I think that she was just realizing that she had been unconsciously testing Lawrence, instead of being completely loyal, and that's why she got angry.. it hit her pride that she had been reduced to acting as pathetically as he had.

But then, no matter how much I over-analyze it, any theory I come up with is just as full of holes as the rest. I'd ultimately like to think that she was avoiding Lawrence after he said those words at Deanna's because he had hit her weak spot, and she was worried he might notice it and see her true feelings.
 
 
Jan 15, 2012 6:55 AM

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Epic arc, I loved every bit out of it! Holo put up an act... that was nice thing to hear, 'cause otherwise even if Lawrence has won the duel, I don't think he'd be able to win her back(easily).
Anyway, Lawrence is surely my most favorite character out of this show.
 
Jan 21, 2012 8:09 AM

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This whole arc failed miserable in my opinion.

First of all, Holo was in the wrong the entire time and yet they made it seem like Lawrence was the one that messed up.

Holo accused Lawrence of knowing about Yoitsu from the very beginning and enjoying her suffering. When she knows damn well that he is the nicest person ever and he couldn't possibly have known.

Obviously anyone would doubt her sanity after Holo said all that shit, so why in the world would Holo expect Lawrence to realize her "cunning plan", when in fact it just looked like the work of an insane woman?

What pisses me off the most is that it wasted like 4 episodes on this shit and made Lawrence out to be the bad guy (When Holo was the one who fucked up)
 
Jan 21, 2012 1:35 PM
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Well, Lawrence DID screw up (in part). He DID know about Yoitsu, and didn't tell her. The "enjoying her suffering" scene was because she DID lose her mind for a few minutes (and apologized in the most pathetic way possible).

And yes, while she screwed up more than Lawrence did when all's said and done, the story's not blaming him. He's blaming himself, and she's still too proud to admit her rather stupid mistakes to him.

If that's too much of a downer, then consider just how schooled Holo got this story. Lawrence beat her plan entirely on his own, and he didn't even realize it. Deanna forced her to watch him and worry about losing him for a change. And she clearly wasn't having fun with Amarti either. So really Holo was getting her just desserts during the entire arc.
 
Jan 22, 2012 6:24 AM

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I suppose I can settle for that, also he knew about Yoitsu for like 1 day, I would consider that just making sure the facts were straight and getting up the courage to tell her.

Oh well, it was still a great series. (I just finished it)
 
Jan 22, 2012 2:58 PM
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Yeah. It's easy to miss it in the anime, but it's implied that he knew about Yoitsu before he even met Holo. In the anime he overheard a kid asking his mom about Yoitsu one night, and since Holo wasn't with him it implies it was before they met. In the novels his thoughts reveal he knows it's been destroyed right from the start when they first meet, he just chooses not to tell her.
 
 
Feb 23, 2012 6:22 AM
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"BE GENTLE WITH ME"


LOL Holo is goddamn ready Lawrence 'whyd u no grab d chance?'
 
Feb 29, 2012 11:33 PM

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Holy shit I was on the edge of my seat while watching this episode! >:( And Horo is such a good tease. :3
 
Mar 9, 2012 1:26 PM

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I feel so stupid, that's what I get for underestimating Horo. This is definitely on a higher level than the first season. It's very interesting that Deanna gave it to Horo instead, like she's guiding their relationship to some direction based on what she experienced with that priest... probably not as that relationship was ruined by the priest's faith, but whatever. I already give up trying to keep up with the cunning of deities in this series. This was a very good arc. 5/5
Modified by VictimOfFate, Mar 9, 2012 1:33 PM
 
Mar 9, 2012 6:04 PM
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VictimOfFate said:
It's very interesting that Deanna gave it to Horo instead, like she's guiding their relationship to some direction based on what she experienced with that priest


Yeah, it's my favorite aspect of this whole arc. We don't know anything except that Deanna tried to get the truth out of Holo, and when Lawrence came around she realized what was going on. Then, she came up with that game.. was it for Holo's sake? Lawrence's? Both of them? Just to have some fun with these two idiots? Either way, she sure pwned Holo.
 
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