Forum SettingsEpisode Information
Forums
Poll: Umineko no Naku Koro ni Episode 7 Discussion


Aug 13, 2009 2:25 PM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 372
noteDhero said:

Moreover, I don't see what Battler is trying to prove since this reality is nothing like the one he lived in. And he's not even surprised. I'd be shocked as hell if all of a sudden I start seeing myself do things I had never done...and yet he's trying arguing her existence? How do you even do that when she's actually there?

This just really kind of proves to me that Beatrice's existence isn't the most important thing going on here, and yet that is the main focus. I don't get it.

Here's a screenshot from EP1 of the VN that explains where some of his reasons for denying magic come from.


Battler is trying to prove that the murders conducted on Rokkenjima were done by humans and without magical means.
Modified by z-pak, Aug 13, 2009 2:49 PM
 
Aug 13, 2009 2:34 PM

Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3817
Another awesome episode as expected - although a bit confusing, as expected. I just love the psycho, schizophrenic Rosa slapping the crap out of Maria..

Can't wait for next week's episode.
 
Aug 13, 2009 2:35 PM

Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 467
Ahww, no bloodshed this episode. That's too bad, I was really looking forward to some. :(
 
Aug 13, 2009 2:49 PM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 281
HAPPY HALLOWEEN MARIA!
uu~uuu

 
Aug 13, 2009 2:58 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
noteDhero said:
Moreover, I don't see what Battler is trying to prove since this reality is nothing like the one he lived in. And he's not even surprised. I'd be shocked as hell if all of a sudden I start seeing myself do things I had never done...and yet he's trying arguing her existence? How do you even do that when she's actually there?

This just really kind of proves to me that Beatrice's existence isn't the most important thing going on here, and yet that is the main focus. I don't get it.


Think of it as a twisted version of Chess. Battler and Beatrice are playing the game and the game itself is the repeating world. The "game board" as they call it. Beatrice couldn't checkmate Battler with the mysteries in the first so she started a new game.

Battler is trying to disprove witches and magic existence in the game board. When time freezes and everything goes gray, that's the meta-world. Seeing magic and witches there doesn't prove that they exist outside it. You can't prove that magic and witches don't exist period because that's a devil's proof. But you can prove that all the murders and tricks happen because of human means without magic.

When Battler says he denies her existence, he's referring to in the real world. It's also possible that Beatrice only exists in the meta-world because people believe she does. It's like how Freddy Krueger can only exist when people believe he does. What the meta-world is and how it exists is a different mystery altogether. One that's not part of Battler and Beatrice's game.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:05 PM

Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4367
Dark_Requiem said:


Well you may say "repackaged in a different way" but honestly once the next episode is released it will be pretty much completely different. Can't say much about the voice acting since I personally like the majority of them but to each his own I guess (same goes for animation besides that one beatrice scene).

Basically Battler is still trying to prove witches don't exist in this scenario and isn't complaining that the reality is different since he has already denied her existence in arc one, why would that change if all the circumstances were the same (so Beatrice makes some changes to try to prove she exists) (plus how much fun would it be to have everything be the exact same, besides currently magic doesn't have to play a role at any point in either scenario). If it annoys you too much about the hypocrisy of Battler trying to prove Beatrice doesn't exist when shes right in front of him you can think of it more as Battlers trying to prove that magic wasn't involved at any point in the murders.


I get what he's trying to prove, but I don't see how he can prove it when he's using this magical game board as the basis for his proof. How do you fight this battle off of this clearly supernatural construct? I know I keep waviering between the two, but now, because of this totally new meta world, as opposed to just replaying the events as they happened, I don't see how he can make any justifications that don't use this large-scale piece of magic as the basis.

BakaOnna said:

Here's a screenshot from EP1 of the VN that explains where some of his reasons for denying magic come from.


Battler is trying to prove that the murders conducted on Rokkenjima were done by humans and without magical means.


Ehhhh, but if we "turn the chessboard around," then how does he explain all the movies and dramas made about real life events? And this is apart of my distaste for Battler: he's willing to totally disregard logic when it's convenient for him, but then condemn everyone else's logic to prove his point.

I feel like I go through a cycle every week with the show: I come off the show disliking the majority of what I see, then I talk about it here and am entertained much more than I was while watching the show, then I kind of convince myself that something much deeper is going on when I talk to others outside of the discussion forums, and then after a couple of days of forgetting about all of it. I'm not really enjoying any aspect of the show besides the community, so I guess I just have to come to terms with it.

MarthX said:


Think of it as a twisted version of Chess. Battler and Beatrice are playing the game and the game itself is the repeating world. The "game board" as they call it. Beatrice couldn't checkmate Battler with the mysteries in the first so she started a new game.

Battler is trying to disprove witches and magic existence in the game board. When time freezes and everything goes gray, that's the meta-world. Seeing magic and witches there doesn't prove that they exist outside it. You can't prove that magic and witches don't exist period because that's a devil's proof. But you can prove that all the murders and tricks happen because of human means without magic.

When Battler says he denies her existence, he's referring to in the real world. It's also possible that Beatrice only exists in the meta-world because people believe she does. It's like how Freddy Krueger can only exist when people believe he does. What the meta-world is and how it exists is a different mystery altogether. One that's not part of Battler and Beatrice's game.


Ok, then why was there nothing from Battler regarding game Beatrice fixing the sucker?

And why couldn't she checkmate Battler? He had no explanation to give for how she did anything. He just said no, and now we're here.
Modified by noteDhero, Aug 13, 2009 3:08 PM
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:12 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
noteDhero said:


I feel like I go through a cycle every week with the show: I come off the show disliking the majority of what I see, then I talk about it here and am entertained much more than I was while watching the show, then I kind of convince myself that something much deeper is going on when I talk to others outside of the discussion forums, and then after a couple of days of forgetting about all of it. I'm not really enjoying any aspect of the show besides the community, so I guess I just have to come to terms with it.


Sounds like you don't like being confused. Umineko likes to screw with your mind like Higurashi did early on. Being confused is really part of the ride.

noteDhero said:
And why couldn't she checkmate Battler? He had no explanation to give for how she did anything. He just said no, and now we're here.


I think he did comment on it in the VN; Said something along the lines that she had another one hidden and pulled it out. You should question why she made Maria close her eyes.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:12 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 140
noteDhero said:
I get what he's trying to prove, but I don't see how he can prove it when he's using this magical game board as the basis for his proof. How do you fight this battle off of this clearly supernatural construct? I know I keep waviering between the two, but now, because of this totally new meta world, as opposed to just replaying the events as they happened, I don't see how he can make any justifications that don't use this large-scale piece of magic as the basis.


I could tell you how you are actually correct about the game board being unfair, but unfortunately its a spoiler from the 3rd game so I cant. :(

edit: and for your edited part Battler's victory is considered proving everything "magical" can be accomplished by humans while Beatrice's victory is considered making Battler believe in witches and magic. Anything less is a tie.
Modified by Golden_Truth, Aug 13, 2009 3:16 PM
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:16 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 385
noteDhero said:
This...just isn't interesting. Maybe Endless Eight burned me out, but I just have no real interest in seeing the same things repacakged a different way, but with worse animation and worse voice acting, and worse characters. I'll continue to watch because it's something to do, but I just don't really care anymore. Maria got on my nerves with the "Uuuu"s, Rosa got on my nerves with her schizophrenic, bi-polar reactions, Kannon annoys me with his whininess, and Beatrice's voice actress just gets huskier and huskier, and Battler's still plain dumb.

Moreover, I don't see what Battler is trying to prove since this reality is nothing like the one he lived in. And he's not even surprised. I'd be shocked as hell if all of a sudden I start seeing myself do things I had never done...and yet he's trying arguing her existence? How do you even do that when she's actually there?

This just really kind of proves to me that Beatrice's existence isn't the most important thing going on here, and yet that is the main focus. I don't get it.
good to know that there is someone like me who didnt get it :-)
plus, if an anime needs its audience to read the original source (VN in this case) to understand whats going on, then it failed for me... so for now, i am not reading anything from VN or any other spoiler to explain me whats going on, I'd like to see it in the show. And Im not dropping this show even though i "currently" dont get much, because there are indeed a lot of people who are positive that this show is (will be) great, and it indeed has some mysterious features.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:17 PM

Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7062
I want to know what kind of candy that was!
It seems to be a lollipop, but it didn't shatter after repeatedly stomped on.
What kind of magic is this!?
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:18 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
You think VN readers weren't confused at this point either? You would be wrong. Things are made clearer as the story progresses. I think people are really missing the whole point of what a mystery is.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:20 PM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 372
The whole existence of magic will be clearer once the 3rd game/arc starts, so it's normal to be questioning its existence. And heck, even after 4 games, the existence of the meta-world is still a mystery.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:21 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 140
HawthorneKitty said:
I want to know what kind of candy that was!
It seems to be a lollipop, but it didn't shatter after repeatedly stomped on.
What kind of magic is this!?


Pretty sure they said it was a marshmallow candy in the VN
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:23 PM
Offline
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 46
noteDhero said:
This just really kind of proves to me that Beatrice's existence isn't the most important thing going on here, and yet that is the main focus. I don't get it.


The focus will eventually shift as the arguments in the show develop, but as of now the ground rules for how Battler is exactly supposed to disprove Beatrice (and Beatrice to Battler likewise) haven't been officially established yet, which should happen around the next episode.

Just think for now: if Beatrice the witch isn't the real culprit, then who or what is game-piece Beatrice standing in for/replacing? Same goes for the use of magic as a murder weapon.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:25 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
Honestly, it's best not to ask any questions. It is a mystery. If everything made sense immediately then it wouldn't be a mystery. If you don't like mysteries then why are you watching one?

Just accept everything and enjoy the ride. Being confused is part of it.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:30 PM

Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 195
This episode just roks! just like the last one.

Beatrice's clothes were awsome. i can't wait to see more... her and Battler war is becoming amazing. i wonder who is going to win.

P.S: what the hell is going on maria's mother head?? she just keep beating her child up, no wonder she is such a sadist child.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:31 PM

Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4367
MarthX said:


Sounds like you don't like being confused. Umineko likes to screw with your mind like Higurashi did early on. Being confused is really part of the ride.


I think he did comment on it in the VN; Said something along the lines that she had another one hidden and pulled it out. You should question why she made Maria close her eyes.

I like being confused if I believe I'm watching a mystery. At this point in time, I don't believe I'm watching a mystery because the killer already came out and named herself. I think what I'm watching is a distraction in the same way Oyashiro was a distraction in Higurashi.

I did question that when it happened, but then we saw Beatrice toss the sucker in the air, turn into golden butterflies, and then saw one butterfly turn into a sucker. No explanation for any of that from Battler.
Dark_Requiem said:


I could tell you how you are actually correct about the game board being unfair, but unfortunately its a spoiler from the 3rd game so I cant. :(

edit: and for your edited part Battler's victory is considered proving everything "magical" can be accomplished by humans while Beatrice's victory is considered making Battler believe in witches and magic. Anything less is a tie.

Well I'm glad I'm on track about something.
SilentXenocide said:

Disregard logic? It would be illogical to believe in something like magic.

I don't know about the show, but in the VN Battler provides explanations for the trick. Either way, it's not like he really has to prove anything in regards to that. To win he has to prove the murders could be done by humans, not explain every sleight of hand trick.


Maybe in real life it would illogical to believe in magic, but after dying being in some weird purgatory where a woman appears after a flock of butterflies, I'm pretty sure I'd believe in magic.

But like I said, he didn't prove anything about the first set of murders before. Why are we starting with a new game when he didn't even attempt to solve the real or first murders?

vinesage said:
good to know that there is someone like me who didnt get it :-)
plus, if an anime needs its audience to read the original source (VN in this case) to understand whats going on, then it failed for me... so for now, i am not reading anything from VN or any other spoiler to explain me whats going on, I'd like to see it in the show. And Im not dropping this show even though i "currently" dont get much, because there are indeed a lot of people who are positive that this show is (will be) great, and it indeed has some mysterious features.


Exactly, I think it's fair at this point to say that this show has to be treated differently than the VN since so much character and background information just isn't present.

MarthX said:
You think VN readers weren't confused at this point either? You would be wrong. Things are made clearer as the story progresses. I think people are really missing the whole point of what a mystery is.


That's the thing. I don't think we're watching a mystery. I think we're watching a distraction from more pertinent plot development.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:35 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
Well..


Here's something to think on.

If witches and magic exists why can't Beatrice appear in front of piece Battler (the one on game board not meta) and use magic in front of him? That would instantly end the game because Battler saw magic outside the meta-world. Why go through all the trouble of having a game when she could end it that easily?
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:39 PM

Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4367
I'm counting the golden butterflies that he was firing at as magic, so I'd like to know that answer also, MarthX.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:43 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1514
oo and so the game begins XD
cant wait for the next episode XD
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:45 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
noteDhero said:
I'm counting the golden butterflies that he was firing at as magic, so I'd like to know that answer also, MarthX.


There's two assumations you're making.

1. Battler saw the butterflies
2. That the butterflies are magic

The first is based off because he shot one. But you can't deny the possibility that it hitting one was a coincidence. He just shot at the portrait and managed to hit one. When he fires a second time, he doesn't try to hit a butterfly, he just shoots the portrait again. If he was aiming at the butterflies, why did he not fire the second shot at them?

Let's say he did see the butterflies. The butterflies are certainly strange but how are they proof that magic exists? There could be some weird type of butterfly that you don't know about. You can't prove weird butterflies like those don't exist because that's a devil's proof.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:54 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
There's also the possibility that they weren't butterflies at all but weird lights. Hearing talk of golden butterflies and the paranoia of the situation could cause the human brain to perceive lights as butterflies.

There are lots of ways to explain it without magic being the cause.
 
Aug 13, 2009 3:58 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 96
vinesage said:
noteDhero said:
This...just isn't interesting. Maybe Endless Eight burned me out, but I just have no real interest in seeing the same things repacakged a different way, but with worse animation and worse voice acting, and worse characters. I'll continue to watch because it's something to do, but I just don't really care anymore. Maria got on my nerves with the "Uuuu"s, Rosa got on my nerves with her schizophrenic, bi-polar reactions, Kannon annoys me with his whininess, and Beatrice's voice actress just gets huskier and huskier, and Battler's still plain dumb.

Moreover, I don't see what Battler is trying to prove since this reality is nothing like the one he lived in. And he's not even surprised. I'd be shocked as hell if all of a sudden I start seeing myself do things I had never done...and yet he's trying arguing her existence? How do you even do that when she's actually there?

This just really kind of proves to me that Beatrice's existence isn't the most important thing going on here, and yet that is the main focus. I don't get it.
good to know that there is someone like me who didnt get it :-)
plus, if an anime needs its audience to read the original source (VN in this case) to understand whats going on, then it failed for me... so for now, i am not reading anything from VN or any other spoiler to explain me whats going on, I'd like to see it in the show. And Im not dropping this show even though i "currently" dont get much, because there are indeed a lot of people who are positive that this show is (will be) great, and it indeed has some mysterious features.

The game is better than the anime but you don't need to play it to understand the story. The anime is quite faithful to the original novel so far.
And it is confusing because that's what it's meant to be.
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:03 PM

Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4367
I could have sworn that there were comments about the butterflies, and other people interacting with them, but I could be wrong. Either way, a species of sparkling gold butterflies that leave fairy dust is ridiculous.

And we've seen the butterflies in moments that no one else was looking, and when no one was agitated.
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:07 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
noteDhero said:
And we've seen the butterflies in moments that no one else was looking, and when no one was agitated.


But the point was Battler never saw them. Battler's the type of guy that won't believe something unless he sees it himself.
Modified by LunarEmerald, Aug 13, 2009 4:11 PM
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:11 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 140
noteDhero said:
I could have sworn that there were comments about the butterflies, and other people interacting with them, but I could be wrong. Either way, a species of sparkling gold butterflies that leave fairy dust is ridiculous.

And we've seen the butterflies in moments that no one else was looking, and when no one was agitated.


Pretty sure the only times they actually talk about seeing butterflies are...

1. Servants see them while patrolling (like Marth said could just be light and since they are alone they automatically become afraid and think Beatrice)
2. Kanon sees butterflies (never verifies it with survivors)
3. Maria comments on how butterflies slipped through the crack of the door (its Maria should I say more?)
4. Natushi sees one (never verifies it with survivors)
5. Battler and friends see them (Marth explained how they might actually not be there. Plus if this arc is also considered a "game board" than it can be explained in the 3rd arc.)
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:12 PM

Offline
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5
Ok... First post in the forum...here goes! (quick note...I'm a VN reader and currently at the start of episode 3)

I don't really think there needs to be much of an explanation for the butterflies that Battler shot at... because the gameboard ended before they appeared, right?! In that episode, the clock struck midnight and the day ended before any butterflies appeared before Battler.
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:13 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4017
I have no fucking clue if this is spoiler or not. I managed to figure as much out during Turn, and some or all of it of it may or may not have been disproven, if addressed at all (I will say nothing of that, nor mention whatever ideas I have as of now, only those I had), so it should be innocent.

Everyone should skip this post anyway. Because I haven't seen the episode (by grace of my tsundere ISP) and am just a lone mad fanboy.

noteDhero said:
Moreover, I don't see what Battler is trying to prove since this reality is nothing like the one he lived in. And he's not even surprised. I'd be shocked as hell if all of a sudden I start seeing myself do things I had never done...and yet he's trying arguing her existence? How do you even do that when she's actually there?

That's... Backwards.

Insted of concluding that because of this, it makes no sense, you should conclude there are things implied which you aren't told. Sure, it won't work in all cases (see: Higashi no Eden), but sometimes it will.

Namely this one.


Recall episode five; Battler claimed that Beatrice could only exist as long as everyone believed in her. As long as he didn't, she would lead a half-existence. And Beatrice praised him on his insight into how magic works.

That's a pretty big damn clue right there, isn't it?


Picture the collection of all facts of the worrld in Umineko as a vast plate. Now add what humans know about it as a series of plates above it. There will be dark patches inbetween. Whatever the humans believe about these patches, will be, say, superimposed reality. It is a clumsy analogy. Still, essentially: there is an objective reality, and superimposed upon it is a subjective one formed from human belief. (To use philosophically incorrect but popularly comprehended terms, at least).

That is of course not the only possible explanation, but it is what I first had in mind when reading Turn. I have changed my mind a bit since then. It is a quite original metaphysics, at least, and one few would advance in real life, mostly because there sadly are no witches in real life.

Now as for Battler and Beatrice in the metaworld; they are not, well, the Battler, at least, is not, the one on the gameboard. As is evident. They are players and nothing more; they exist solely to play this game until someone loses. Beattler isn't a person as much as he is a Battler about Battler and being Beatrice's opponent. He doesn't exist in the world, only in a world about a world. He is intrinsic to the metaboard.

Sort of a spoiler. Not lethal, I think. Figured out as much early on but you'd probably need the next episode (? I don't think they used red text in this episode, but I have yet to see it) of the anime to get it. Since it includes references to a plot device which will be introduced soon, which is very meta.




Also possible is that they are playing a pen and paper roleplaying game.

I get what he's trying to prove, but I don't see how he can prove it when he's using this magical game board as the basis for his proof. How do you fight this battle off of this clearly supernatural construct? I know I keep waviering between the two, but now, because of this totally new meta world, as opposed to just replaying the events as they happened, I don't see how he can make any justifications that don't use this large-scale piece of magic as the basis.

Yeah, I refer to my nonsense above.

Ehhhh, but if we "turn the chessboard around," then how does he explain all the movies and dramas made about real life events? And this is apart of my distaste for Battler: he's willing to totally disregard logic when it's convenient for him, but then condemn everyone else's logic to prove his point.

Maybe in real life it would illogical to believe in magic, but after dying being in some weird purgatory where a woman appears after a flock of butterflies, I'm pretty sure I'd believe in magic.

While Umineko itself is occasionally, though very intermittenly, guilty of this too, you are misusing "logic". "Logic" does not equate to "common sense", nor to "makes sense", or anything like it. Logic is about contradictions, tautological equivalence, and logical truth, nothing else.

Battler is quite rational. Almost too rational. He has an insanely high demand of proof, one most would consider ridiculous, but still, he demands something quite rational to demand:

Deductive evidence.

Not inductive. How would he know what Beatrice was? He could be on a drug trip. He could be in the most well-staged theatre ever. He could be in the future and in a MMORPG. Not that he would know what these were, but still. Point rests: Just because it is something he can't explain, it does not mean the first explanation offered him is true. Any could. He's trying to find which. Ridiculous options, of course. But a witch is as ridiculous, we're just softened to it because it is hammered into us. If Beatrice came and said she was an alien using mind-control devices and holographic nanobots and whatnot, I imagine you would be as fast to assume she's an alien... When really, in that case, she might have actually been a witch.

As said, ridiculous cases, Battler is more down-to-earth. But the basic structure remains: She hasn't shown she is a witch. She has shown other things.

And to append my own theory of superimposed subjective reality (which weighs heavier in this case): If he can disprove Beatrice, she'd disappear. Well, if she really did not exist. If she really did exist without the superimposed subjective reality, he'd be fucking screwed.

And I'd like that.


Still:

You trust what you see and what you are told far too much.

Distrust everything. Don't gobble it up.

That's the path to being rational.
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent
<img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" />
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:13 PM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1499
Interesting... a bit confused, but still looking forward to next episode :)
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:22 PM
Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2193
yer me t00 lookin forward to next ep, but im confused as hell.
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:30 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 167
Clarsiso said:
Rosa your the best mom EVER.

YEAH! I know tell me about it >.<

BakaOnna said:

Next preview is up! *SPOILER HEAVY!!!* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94Oxi2LFzM

WOW! Looks awesome!

MarthX said:
The next episode is when the series takes a turn for awesome and stays that way.
People who haven't read the VN will finally get to see why people like this series so much. And that's just the beginning. It only gets better. But that's not to say that the previous 7 episodes were bad. They were good and I enjoyed them but if that's all Umineko was then the series wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.
I really hope the anime can pull it off. They've been doing a really good job the past 3 episodes so I think they can do it.

AHHHHHH your post just makes me shiver with excitement to see what's coming! So it gets even better :) I can't wait. I sure hope the anime can pull it off too, because I sure don't want to be disappointed.
MarthX said:

When Battler says he denies her existence, he's referring to in the real world. It's also possible that Beatrice only exists in the meta-world because people believe she does. It's like how Freddy Krueger can only exist when people believe he does.

When you used this example it got me thinking that I have heard this reasoning before actually a few times.. but the one time I can pin point would be in another anime, Ghost Stories (English dub was MUCH better, more funnier). " Resembling the infamous Grim Reaper in all aspects, Babasare has the power of altering reality. He haunts children that are lonely in their homes and believe in and fear him. Aside from this, he cannot appear to adults or brave children since they don't believe in his existence, thus won't fear him" so this adds some interesting thoughts.

okay, so now some thoughts of my own for this episode! :)
First off I would like to say I LOVED..
I also loved the stop time and take a different view aspect. I'm still determined to say I don't believe in witches :) Until I see some hard proof. I have my theories, I've posted them before. I did see someone was asking about the butterflies, I liked MarthX's idea's that maybe it was lights, I was thinking maybe someone implants a hypnotic suggestion in their minds.. there are just to many to list, so its still easy to think of other explanations.
I mean hey don't get me wrong I'm probably more confused than all of you lol but that's what makes this anime different and entertaining, since I've never read the VN I'm taking it one episode at a time and it's going pretty good.
Modified by Sigyn, Aug 13, 2009 4:39 PM
- Noblesse Oblige -

And I'm saying a prayer for the desperate heart's tonight

 
Aug 13, 2009 4:39 PM

Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 924
I love those butterflies~
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:44 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1006
mewants to read the VN now... i wonder if there is any english translation floating around the net...

anyways, i loved this episode, just shows the japanese how bad of a beating kids had in the old days...

now, to hunt those translations....
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:44 PM
Offline
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 529
Good episode, Beatrice appearing in front of everyone like this will prove to be a big piece for Beatrice for the upcoming episodes. I can tell from the episode 8 preview this series is going to take a turn for the awesome. Heck I should know, I read the VN.

Richard_Omega said:
mewants to read the VN now... i wonder if there is any english translation floating around the net...

anyways, i loved this episode, just shows the japanese how bad of a beating kids had in the old days...

now, to hunt those translations....


You can buy the VN at Himeya shop or you can download a torrent somewhere although I don't condemn it. It'll be called EP4 with all 4 episodes so don't be fooled.

www.witch-hunt.com Has an english patch for it and they'll guide you on how to get everything set up.
Modified by HaiShang, Aug 13, 2009 4:47 PM
 
Aug 13, 2009 4:46 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4017
Richard_Omega said:
mewants to read the VN now... i wonder if there is any english translation floating around the net...

anyways, i loved this episode, just shows the japanese how bad of a beating kids had in the old days...

now, to hunt those translations....
http://witch-hunt.com/

Not the most beautiful translation out there, but Umineko is not read for its lyrical depth.
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent
<img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" />
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:04 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 66
Call me a psycho, but when Rosa kicks Maria's butt a large smile appears on my face.
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:21 PM

Offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2400
Oh man..Rosa is such a bitch. No wonder Maria has behaviour problems. Some people shouldn't have kids. I'm sick of Rosa's mood swings as well. Going from abusive to apologetic and whatnot.

Beatrice's cackles amuse me :)
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:24 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 634
Good episode, but I still need more episodes to understand what's happening completely like Higurashi. And haha in the preview for next episode Maria was watching Higurashi on TV.

Looking foreword to next episode, and did anyone notice the subs for this episode sucked?
Modified by Meh_93, Aug 13, 2009 5:28 PM
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:35 PM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
Meh_93 said:
Good episode, but I still need more episodes to understand what's happening completely like Higurashi. And haha in the preview for next episode Maria was watching Higurashi on TV.

Looking foreword to next episode, and did anyone notice the subs for this episode sucked?


What was wrong with them?
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:43 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4017
Finally saw the episode. Bloody internets.

And, well.

I can't say much but HNNNNNNNG BEATO
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent
<img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" />
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:44 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 634
MarthX said:
Meh_93 said:
Good episode, but I still need more episodes to understand what's happening completely like Higurashi. And haha in the preview for next episode Maria was watching Higurashi on TV.

Looking foreword to next episode, and did anyone notice the subs for this episode sucked?


What was wrong with them?


The typesetting was off for some of the words and the translation wasn't great.
 
Aug 13, 2009 5:54 PM

Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 353
I just gotta say I'm really enjoying the discussion between Kaiserpingvin, NoteDhero and Marthx. It's made me notice things I'd missed before and raised new possibilities that I hadn't considered as well. Bravo!
 
Aug 13, 2009 6:05 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 205
naganje said:
Call me a psycho, but when Rosa kicks Maria's butt a large smile appears on my face.


Nah, I felt the same way. Maria's so damn annoying and batshit that I honestly didn't sympathize with her at all.

And all this talk makes me realllly want to play the VN. :3
 
Aug 13, 2009 6:49 PM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 438
Kaiserpingvin said:
I can't say much but HNNNNNNNG BEATO

YES. Oh hot damn. Though I did spot some ~quality~, Deen.

 
Aug 13, 2009 6:54 PM
Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 162
bellpickle said:
And all this talk makes me realllly want to play the VN. :3

Do it! It's a good!
 
Aug 13, 2009 6:59 PM
Offline
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 46
noteDhero said:
But like I said, he didn't prove anything about the first set of murders before. Why are we starting with a new game when he didn't even attempt to solve the real or first murders?


Basically, the game doesn't end for Beatrice until Battler concedes defeat- meaning, he acknowledges Beatrice the witch as the culprit of the Rokkenjima murders. As they were standing at the end of the first arc, Battler refused to concede to Beatrice even though he couldn't explain the murders; he just left it at the assumption that a real-life solution did exist, but that he couldn't explain it yet. So, Beatrice decided to keep the game going by continuing to conjure game boards until Battler finally does concede defeat (which, given Battler's stubbornness, could take lord knows how long).

In order for Battler to win at all, however, he has to be able to explain the mysteries of EVERY board game. Meaning, the first murders will be addressed eventually by Battler, but in the meantime he's just going to be stockpiled with even more mysteries to deal with. It may seem like an endless diversion right now, but actually, the developments of this arc onwards will provide Battler with the tools/means he needs to be able to counterattack Beatrice on all of the board games. It just remains to be seen how the anime will show that.
Modified by JackFrost, Aug 14, 2009 1:50 AM
 
Aug 13, 2009 7:07 PM

Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6640
Very happy with this ep, it set up for the craziness of the next pretty damn well. One week is too long to wait for 8!
Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines.
 
Aug 13, 2009 7:15 PM

Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4367
@JackFrost & everyone

I guess that's fair...it's just not entertaining in the slightest for me. I'd like Beatrice to take him to task more, but it seems like she's fine toying with him.

Another question:
Everyone familiar with the VNs seem to point that there will be information that shows that anti-fantasy is a strong possiblity...even though we know that Beatrice's magic gets stronger when more people believe in her, and in this game she has all of the adult children on her side, plus the servants (minus Shannon perhaps), Kinzo, and Maria. Won't this game be a bust because of that? Perhaps that's more of a rhetorical question.
 
Aug 13, 2009 7:30 PM

Offline
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 429
Okay, having not read the manga, played the video games, or seen the anime which is similar to this, I'm pretty confused. What I gather is, Beatrice is showing Battler a different version of what happened originally on the island that didn't happen? And I still haven't figured out, did he and the other three die at the end of episode 5? @.@ I have a feeling Beatrice wouldn't kill Maria, but I'm at a loss to what exactly is going on, having no background knowledge.
Eleven years on MAL!
()__()
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
Aug 13, 2009 8:36 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 256
noteDhero said:
even though we know that Beatrice's magic gets stronger when more people believe in her, and in this game she has all of the adult children on her side, plus the servants (minus Shannon perhaps), Kinzo, and Maria. Won't this game be a bust because of that? Perhaps that's more of a rhetorical question.


Well, judging by the preview, I would say your speculation seems rather on the money...

BTW... About watching a preview = a spoiler... that's why they exist, don't they? Unless people really think THIS preview in particular is spilling too much, but hey, it's just one episode anyway. Even if everything hits the fan in this particular episode.
 
Top
Pages (6) « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »