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Poll: Umineko no Naku Koro ni Episode 7 Discussion


Aug 14, 2009 2:48 PM

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It was a good episode, I loved it^-^



And...-
BakaOnna said:

Next preview is up! *SPOILER HEAVY!!!* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94Oxi2LFzM!

Oo Okay... this will be interesting^-^
deadoptimist said:
Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes.
 
Aug 14, 2009 2:52 PM

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The reason Jessica is in love with Kanon is because he's the only male on the island around her age. It's a big reason why people hate that pairing. It's incredibly forced.

How you think of the characters is pretty much how a VN reader at this point in time would think of them. Umineko has a large cast so it can't focus on everyone at once. More characters will be developed later on.

You forgot Rosa though. Rosa has a lot more to her character than the other siblings.
Modified by LunarEmerald, Aug 14, 2009 2:55 PM
 
Aug 14, 2009 2:59 PM

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But Jessica does go to school...and she seemed to clearly be popular, so that doesn't really hold any weight.

The thing is that there isn't much to develop since there really isn't much a sense of any of the characters besides Natsuhi, Eva, and Battler. We know only one (or two) solid facts about any character. The only place to develop is in some of the strained interactions like Maria/Rosa...Battler/Beatrice...Kanon/everyone else? Hmm, I guess Kanon is the one in the biggest position to develop...I just don't really care about him.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:05 PM

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Some things you missed about Maria. Maria doesn't blame her mother when she starts abusing her. She blames it on the "black witch." It's apparent that Rosa has been mistreating Maria for quite some time which would explain why Maria is so screwed up in the head.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:06 PM

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noteDhero said:
But Jessica does go to school...and she seemed to clearly be popular, so that doesn't really hold any weight.

The thing is that there isn't much to develop since there really isn't much a sense of any of the characters besides Natsuhi, Eva, and Battler. We know only one (or two) solid facts about any character. The only place to develop is in some of the strained interactions like Maria/Rosa...Battler/Beatrice...Kanon/everyone else? Hmm, I guess Kanon is the one in the biggest position to develop...I just don't really care about him.

IMO Kanon has some redeeming qualities later in Turn of the Golden Witch (the arc the anime is currently on) it made me like him better. Happens in the next episode.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:14 PM

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noteDhero said:
Ok, so now that most everyone is saying that this isn't a bad adaptation (despite the fact that characterization and tone is being altered) what is with the majority of the complaints thrown at the show from VN players?

Everyone has some favourite scenes in the gane, and if they are cut they'll be pissed off. I think that's all.

Renza said:
I guess Studio Deen wasn't fit to do adaptations of ANYTHING really. Off topic I know but I heard they also butchered Fate/Stay Night badly. My friend told me they did Higurashi badly.

Fate/Stay Night is not that bad. I see that most of the complaint is about DEEN didn't animate their favourite route.
Higurashi maybe not a good adaption but it is a good anime (best anime to me)
I think you should watch them yourseld and decide, not just hear others.

noteDhero said:
I've gone into detalis many times...including my first post in this thread. I didn't know that comments don't carry over.

But piggybacking on what Kasperpingvin has already said, here we go:

Battler: He perhaps isn't as wooden as everyone else, but I will say that when he isn't being a smug think he knows it all, he fails. See the reveal of his parents being dead as proof.

Kanon: He's emo furniture.

Shannon: just a plain nice girl...the little time that they spent on her in the last episode didn't do much to give any insight on her character, or importance besides smashing the mirror.

Jessica: I think it says something when I'm not impressed by Maria Inoue's performance. She's the only voice actress that does a good job with the sceaming and portraying general shock, but the whole "creating a person within yourself" just didn't hold any weight. Nor do we see any reason for why she's so in love with Kanon, but I'm sure that will be glossed over later.

Maria: Do I need to say anything? Higurashi face, and the voice actress ruin much of the point to this character to me. This seems to be mostly Deen's fault since she seems to be the biggest exaggeration in this world....and I really need a reason for why she acts like a 2 year old.

George: Who? Oh the guy who lost Shannon, and who, after we find out last episode is supposed to be perfect? Ok. Moving along...

Natsuhi: Good character, best job of giving motivation and characterization goes to her. Genuinely interesting.

Eva: Second best job, still a little too over the top when they first introduced her, and that goes for the last episode too.

Other siblings and spouses: Yeah, we can group them all together, because nothing has been done here.

Servants: Just that.

Kinzo: Crazy and on his deathbed.

Beatrice: Intriguing, but really, all we know is that she likes to toy around with people and she's less powerful than Bernkastel. Don't know much about her. The real mystery of the show lies here.

Most of these comments can be applied to the game too (at this point of course)
In the first arc, Natsuhi is the most developed character. Even Battler is not developed much, he is more like a narrator. Maria is just annoying even if the game has no voice. And Beatrice is just plain evil when she first appeared.

Umineko (and Higurashi) don't develop their characters right away but do it slowly with the progress of the story.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:15 PM

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MarthX said:
Some things you missed about Maria. Maria doesn't blame her mother when she starts abusing her. She blames it on the "black witch." It's apparent that Rosa has been mistreating Maria for quite some time which would explain why Maria is so screwed up in the head.


I didn't really miss it...I found it interesting that she blamed it on the witch in this episode, and it did a better job of portraying the fact that Rosa is a psycho, but I don't think that really changes anything about Maria. For whatever reason she blames everything bad on Beatrice, yet reveres her anyways. That's not an understandable reaction, even for a, what, 8-10 year old? At this point Maria should be able to know how to act in public, and what her mother's consequences for her outlandish behavior will be. Instead, she looks shocked when her mom snaps as though she makes herself forget Rosa's split personality.

I'd really need to hear that Maria is autistic to waive off most of her actions in the show. She's too old to act the way she does without knowing that it isn't appropriate.

edit:
@4_saken
I actutually think that Higurashi did a good job of introducing and characterizing the major players in the show. By the end of that first arc, I pretty much understood a lot of where the characters were coming from while being nicely thrown off by Higurashi face every now and then. But by the plot's nature, there was no real devlopment in the characters until the end of the show which, made most of everything outside of the first arc a bit of a pain to watch.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:17 PM

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What makes you think she's blaming it on Beatrice? To Maria Beatrice is a close friend. Someone she trusts completely. Maria doesn't believe in a witch, she believes in witches.

There is a reason why Maria acts the way she does but that's a spoiler for much later.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:19 PM

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She said the bad witch and I just assumed she meant Beatrice since I haven't seen her talk about any other witches on the show.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:26 PM

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@noteDhero Just wondering, but it almost seems as if you consider that everything has to be plain text? You didn't catch that you were supposed to think about game/metaboard on your own but just assumed it made no sense, and just assumed that Maria made no sense with her bad witch-Beatrice dichotomy. If there is a contradiction, try to resolve it. Only if you can't, assume the ridiculous.

(Hope I don't come off as condescending/overly assumptive/whatnot. Just an observation.)
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Aug 14, 2009 3:31 PM

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What do you mean?
I saw this as a "meta board" when Beatrice and Battler popped out of nowhere and started talking about a new game. My thing was that I had a problem with understanding why it was a totally new game since I was under the impression that they were going to go through the events of the first episode with Battler trying to explain the murders since he didn't try to do that during the tea party.

As for Maria, she doesn't make sense. She's totally underdeveloped socially and mentally for her age...even though she has times where she speaks beyond her age. Had she talked about other witches besides Beatrice, I wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that she just meant Beatrice.

I think you're taking for granted that you are aware of the source material.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:40 PM

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noteDhero said:


The character, which I'm most disappointed with, is Battler. In VN, he was pretty well developed (coz he's the main char), but in anime he's got personality as deep as a paddling pool. He is all "there are no witches, lalala, i cant hear you" and he gives no reasons for this. IMHO DEEN used too little time to develop him further and therefore we get a boob-grabbing anti-magic wooden marionette. I can't wait for the next ep - DEEN has an opportunity to improve that.

The second place for wasted opportunities for making a good char goes to Maria. I probably don't need to explain that. DEEN went along "*** no Naku Koro ni => crazy lolis with wicked faces". IMHO Maria should always have her normal expression - magic is something normal for her, no need to pull out the Hinamizawa Syndrome face. Her smile shouldn't be evil as often as in the anime - instead, it should be a happy, peaceful smile, as in ep1, or in ep5, when stretching her arms and being asked what happened to the victims.

Jessica and Natsuhi do pretty well. Natsuhi is at least less annoying than in VN and that's good - I hated her headaches and complaints. Jessica got a human face because of the school festival scenes, and her conversation with Shannon.

Eva and Rosa - well, not bad. It's hard to put into the words why.

Other parents, Gohda and Kumasawa are currently useful only for bloodbath, so they are meant to be undeveloped for now. However, Kumasawa in this ep was like a wound-up speaking automaton loaded with the legend of Beatrice. BTW, the scene in the chapel sucked because of parents' dull responses.

Genji is like he was in VN - indifferent, emotionless, devoted, always in shadows. Very well.

Kinzo needs more of his craziness. It's a shame that his lines in anime are so short - we need at least one longer maniacal monologue about magic, Beatrice and his family. But nevertheless, not bad.

Shannon, Kanon and Nanjo aren't bad. Kanon is really meant to be a emotionless guy with an inferiority complex, Shannon

George - I personally don't think of him as of a main character, but rather as a secondary character, so I wouldn't mind if he was even left out from the adaptation. Don't ask why.

And I don't know what to think about Beatrice. She is a talking enigma and I can't recall if she were like that on this point of VN. And as with Battler - next ep please!

And finally, the dialogues. The conversations are sometimes made of unrelated sentences, and one line of thought is not finished when a new one is started. Of course, it's not a Hollywood film, when almost everything has to be clearly stated by the characters, and also the quality of [gg] speedsubs can have something to do with this. (examples - ending of Shannon-Beatrice conversation in this ep, Beatrice-Shannon 'love is the only element' in ep 6, Kyrie-Battler in ep2, almost everything in the 1st tea party etc.)

And boobs. Why so much boobs? They keep me distracted...

TL;DR version:
* Battler and Maria suck
* others are OK
* unnatural dialogues
* too much boobs
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:40 PM

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I am talking about how you do not try to think about why things are odd, but presume they are errors on part of the writers, until there is a plain text explanation of it. I do not think it takes a long leap of thought to conclude that bad wicth != Beatrice given that you know Maria does not hold Beatrice to be a bad witch, and thus conclude that there are at least two witches Maria believed in.

Given how often is is the case that the writers just suck, that might be a useful heuristic, of course. But it's like saying that the tower dialogue in the beginning of Ulysses makes no sense and as thus that it's badly written, or something like that.

Eeh, I feel uncomfortable being so assumptive about someone. Sorry about that :/
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Aug 14, 2009 3:43 PM

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noteDhero said:
What do you mean?
I saw this as a "meta board" when Beatrice and Battler popped out of nowhere and started talking about a new game. My thing was that I had a problem with understanding why it was a totally new game since I was under the impression that they were going to go through the events of the first episode with Battler trying to explain the murders since he didn't try to do that during the tea party.

As for Maria, she doesn't make sense. She's totally underdeveloped socially and mentally for her age...even though she has times where she speaks beyond her age. Had she talked about other witches besides Beatrice, I wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that she just meant Beatrice.

I think you're taking for granted that you are aware of the source material.

I have to agree that it's true.
The VN players just tell what they think, and that maybe not the right answer.
For now in the game there are no proper explanation about the Meta world yet. We just know that Beatrice claimed that she is the one doing the whole thing, we don't know how much truthful it is.
I think we just accept it because of Higurashi :D

About Maria, I think they are talking with the knowledge of the later arcs. I remember when I played the 2nd game, I was very confused about the witch thing. The good witch/evil witch stuff is only clear in the 4th arc.
 
Aug 14, 2009 3:51 PM

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(That first part was a little over the line for me)

No. The thing is that I clearly don't see the show in as bright a light as most people here. To me, it's a lot of random nonsense with the connector being Beatrice. As I've said a million times before, I think that this game is a diversion, to mask the bigger mystery that is Beatrice and maybe her relation with Kinzo and the servants. I feel like Battler stands in the way of the bigger picture of the series in about the same way that Oyashiro did in Higurashi. To me, what goes on between Beatrice and Bernkastel is much more important than what I've seen in the past two epiosdes.

But I will admit, it was faulty of me to assume that Maria was talking about Beatrice, I just don't take much stock in what Maria has to say as a character because I just think that she's off.
Modified by noteDhero, Aug 14, 2009 3:57 PM
 
Aug 14, 2009 4:07 PM

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I think the VN players talked too much with the knowledge of the later arcs. The "anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy" are only clear in the 3rd arc (I think that's when that term is first used) but they talk about it right in the end of the 1st arc.
 
Aug 14, 2009 4:14 PM

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I don't know. Part of me wants to be blazing wrong about everything I'm seeing...but I can't fathom how that could be the case, and actually be coherent. I guess I'm at the next phase in Umineko Syndrome.
 
Aug 14, 2009 8:06 PM

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Okay, let me state that I have NOT played through the VN.

Basically, I really can't see where this show can go. It's a game between "LALALALA MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA" Battler and "Omoshiroi" Beatrice. What is it other than an Endless Eight of endurance?
Maybe I should give them a chance to flesh out the story more... but still, episode 7 and they've done next to nothing? Eh...
Don't forget.
Always, somewhere,
someone is fighting for you.
As long as you remember her,
you are not alone.
 
Aug 14, 2009 8:26 PM

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It is not like EE. It has a plot and it gets better as it goes.
 
Aug 14, 2009 10:36 PM
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Battler actually has reasons why he doesn't accept witches. Reasons stated during the first tea party. Reasons that DEEN have decided to completely ignore at this time.

The total lack of them showing Battler's thoughts outside of dialogue so far is a bit...
 
Aug 14, 2009 10:42 PM
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noteDhero said:
I'd really need to hear that Maria is autistic to waive off most of her actions in the show. She's too old to act the way she does without knowing that it isn't appropriate.


It''s interesting that you mentioned Maria and autism, because one of the theories people had from reading the VN was that Maria had Asperger's syndrome/some form of autism. It would explain a lot of her behavior, actually.

For now it may seem like random nonsense, but part of the mystery is actually making sense out of the nonsense. It doesn't seem so interesting right now because the current arc thus far is basically following the same formula as the previous one with the characters rotated around, but that should change next week.
 
Aug 15, 2009 1:29 AM

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wheresthehandle said:
Okay, let me state that I have NOT played through the VN.

Basically, I really can't see where this show can go. It's a game between "LALALALA MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA" Battler and "Omoshiroi" Beatrice. What is it other than an Endless Eight of endurance?
Maybe I should give them a chance to flesh out the story more... but still, episode 7 and they've done next to nothing? Eh...


Episodes 1-5 were creating the basic structure of the series. The epitaph and twilights. 6 and 7 were build up for what's to come. Saying next to nothing has happened is a laugh though. A lot has happened just not with the meta-world because that only started 2 episodes ago.

GarLogan78 said:
It is not like EE. It has a plot and it gets better as it goes.


Yeah. Umineko is a series where it keeps getting better as it goes along. EP2 is better than EP1, EP3 is way better than EP2 and EP4 is a mixed bag with some parts better than EP3 and some worse than EP1

z2000 said:
Battler actually has reasons why he doesn't accept witches. Reasons stated during the first tea party. Reasons that DEEN have decided to completely ignore at this time.

The total lack of them showing Battler's thoughts outside of dialogue so far is a bit...


That was explained before the tea party in EP1. Even though, he has his reasons, they aren't very good. It pretty much comes down to Battler being stubborn. Don't make it sound like there's a deep reason behind it and if you knew it, you'd be along Battler's side. Because that's not the case at all.
Modified by LunarEmerald, Aug 15, 2009 1:37 AM
 
Aug 15, 2009 2:34 AM

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awesome xD yea~ cant wait to see the next episode


 
Aug 15, 2009 2:38 AM

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I read through this thread and saw that there is a lot of confusion coming from anime-only watchers, to which most SN players simply said that 'It will be explained later on'. Well I disagree; a great part can still be explained right now as well without spoiling anything.

To noteDhero (I hope you read this!) and whoever else says that anti-fantasy is pretty illogical when magic is so obvious, well, you are inclined to take everything you see for granted - which really doesn't work in the case of Umineko.

Anti-mystery says that magic exists. Period.
Anti-fantasy denies magic. Well then, what me must ask ourselves at this point is, what is the equivalent of magic in anti-fantasy? The answer: a concept.

Now this concept may very well vary depending on the person and circumstance, but usually it's among the lines of lying, omitting and/or altering part of the truth. What you actually see in Umineko is the materialization of said concept. (Example: I believe there's a witch behind my back => I turn around and see said witch.)

To prove my point; let's take the scene with Maria and Rosa in the garden.
What do we know? Rosa runs to Maria and hugs her, Beatrice appears, fixes Maria's candy through magic, gives her and her mother each an envelope and disappears, leaving Rosa with a 'wtf' face (oh yes, an obvious reaction from a fully grown adult.) How do you explain something so obvious in a logical way then? There are several possibilities.

1. Rosa felt sorry for slapping Maria and wanted to make up to her. She asked someone (say, Shannon) to wear a suit resembling that of Beatrice and perform a little trick to cheer Maria up. Now, Maria is a nine year old kid very inclined to think that everything around her is magic, so anything she sees that distantly resembles magic, she will consider magic. (And there was no need for a trick either. Remember how Maria closed her eyes while the candy was being 'repaired'? It could have very well be switched to a new one during this time.)

My point being: Maria wanted to see the witch, Rosa pretended that to be a witch, therefore the concept materialized and was depicted as 'suit-Beato'.

2. Who else sees this scene? Meta-Battler. Now I do not think it is wise to deny that the meta-world is a magical one (and no, this does not contradict the game itself, since it is beyond the game), therefore Beatrice can do as she pleases. And Beatrice is determined to win - therefore the whole scene could be actually something she altered to tease Battler.

3. What proof do you have that this scene happened at all?
Real Battler (the only one able to confirm it at this point) did not see it.
Meta-Battler could be toyed with by Beato.
Maria will take anything she sees and cannot explain as magic.
Rosa might very well be lying for various reasons (create an alibi?).

Well then, prove it to me. Give me an argument that this scene really did happen.

As a piece of advice: honestly, do not take anything you are shown as 'real' unless real Battler is there as well. Right now he's the only trustful source.

On another note: Chiaki Kon, or whoever is directing this, would you give it a rest with the Higurashi faces already?
Modified by Sii_Kei, Aug 15, 2009 2:41 AM
 
Aug 15, 2009 2:52 AM

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after watching 7 episodes i still don't get this series.. it's maybe because i did not play the game, it just feels weird watching this,, and why doessnt anyone bothered on how mary or whatever the little girl's name speak when she's in 'higurashi' mode
 
Aug 15, 2009 3:03 AM

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And another point to the theory above:

When they were talking about the new guest and Beatrice, now come ROsa, who supposedely was the one who had seen her and ner magic didn't even say anything.
I mean, you are Rosa and you have seen Beato, you just say it to your siblings.
The reason she didn't say anything it's because she didn't see anything and Maria just told her all that and gave her the letter.
 
Aug 15, 2009 4:32 AM

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Hard to care about the mystery in this show when I don't care about the characters involved in said mystery. I do hope it gets better like everyone claims it will.
 
Aug 15, 2009 4:57 AM

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Good episode, maybe a little too fast paced. Can't wait for the next one.
 
Aug 15, 2009 6:10 AM

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rosa is mean :/

at least i love beato in her new outfit though =3=
 
Aug 15, 2009 8:01 AM

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suzuka_pew said:
at least i love beato in her new outfit though =3=

Seconded, I love her new outfit <3
deadoptimist said:
Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes.
 
Aug 15, 2009 8:10 AM

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wheresthehandle said:
Okay, let me state that I have NOT played through the VN.

Basically, I really can't see where this show can go. It's a game between "LALALALA MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA" Battler and "Omoshiroi" Beatrice. What is it other than an Endless Eight of endurance?

Their game is about the murders, there is no murder yet so of course there are nothing to play for now. It'll begin next week.

It's just 2 episode and people are complaining that nothing happens, I wonder what'll happen if the anime has the same pace as the game.


topzki47 said:
after watching 7 episodes i still don't get this series.. it's maybe because i did not play the game, it just feels weird watching this,, and why doessnt anyone bothered on how mary or whatever the little girl's name speak when she's in 'higurashi' mode

No, the game is the same, it's very very wierd ^^
 
Aug 15, 2009 9:26 AM

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confused_kitsune said:
I read through this thread and saw that there is a lot of confusion coming from anime-only watchers, to which most SN players simply said that 'It will be explained later on'. Well I disagree; a great part can still be explained right now as well without spoiling anything.

To noteDhero (I hope you read this!) and whoever else says that anti-fantasy is pretty illogical when magic is so obvious, well, you are inclined to take everything you see for granted - which really doesn't work in the case of Umineko.

Anti-mystery says that magic exists. Period.
Anti-fantasy denies magic. Well then, what me must ask ourselves at this point is, what is the equivalent of magic in anti-fantasy? The answer: a concept.

Now this concept may very well vary depending on the person and circumstance, but usually it's among the lines of lying, omitting and/or altering part of the truth. What you actually see in Umineko is the materialization of said concept. (Example: I believe there's a witch behind my back => I turn around and see said witch.)

To prove my point; let's take the scene with Maria and Rosa in the garden.
What do we know? Rosa runs to Maria and hugs her, Beatrice appears, fixes Maria's candy through magic, gives her and her mother each an envelope and disappears, leaving Rosa with a 'wtf' face (oh yes, an obvious reaction from a fully grown adult.) How do you explain something so obvious in a logical way then? There are several possibilities.

1. Rosa felt sorry for slapping Maria and wanted to make up to her. She asked someone (say, Shannon) to wear a suit resembling that of Beatrice and perform a little trick to cheer Maria up. Now, Maria is a nine year old kid very inclined to think that everything around her is magic, so anything she sees that distantly resembles magic, she will consider magic. (And there was no need for a trick either. Remember how Maria closed her eyes while the candy was being 'repaired'? It could have very well be switched to a new one during this time.)

My point being: Maria wanted to see the witch, Rosa pretended that to be a witch, therefore the concept materialized and was depicted as 'suit-Beato'.

2. Who else sees this scene? Meta-Battler. Now I do not think it is wise to deny that the meta-world is a magical one (and no, this does not contradict the game itself, since it is beyond the game), therefore Beatrice can do as she pleases. And Beatrice is determined to win - therefore the whole scene could be actually something she altered to tease Battler.

3. What proof do you have that this scene happened at all?
Real Battler (the only one able to confirm it at this point) did not see it.
Meta-Battler could be toyed with by Beato.
Maria will take anything she sees and cannot explain as magic.
Rosa might very well be lying for various reasons (create an alibi?).

Well then, prove it to me. Give me an argument that this scene really did happen.

As a piece of advice: honestly, do not take anything you are shown as 'real' unless real Battler is there as well. Right now he's the only trustful source.

On another note: Chiaki Kon, or whoever is directing this, would you give it a rest with the Higurashi faces already?


I'll say this:
What you've said is really nothing new in the discussion of the show. It may be new for this particular episode discussion, but not generally unheard. But I would like to talk about a few of these things anyways.

a) I have no reason to believe that the fuzzy narration/perspective outside of Battler is untrustworthy. I'm given little inconsistencies in the way of this to believe so. What I've seen is a straight-forward presentation of events with little or no contradiction from other characters as to what has happened. Further, what is so trustworthy about Battler for me to take to heart what he sees? As far as I've seen, he is the most biased, least trustworthy character in the show.

b) As far as this concept is concerned, I think that you can be anti fantasy and still believe somewhat in this half-hearted concept that they are creating. Jessica has already talked about creating a person inside of herself, and the whole notion of Beatrice's power hinges on the belief of the people in the real world. I personally think that the idea of witches not existing in this world flies in the face of the the Naku Koro Ni Metaverse, and that's why I'm anti-mystery. Even though I think that the real mystery of the show has to deal with Beatrice and the witches.

c) What is the point of watching a show where we can't believe 70% of what we're seeing. That's not a mystery, it's just poor storytelling. Battler hasn't witnessed the majority of what has happened on screen. Maybe Umineko is trying something radically different where they just create a story in the answer arcs, and most of the question arcs are total redherrings. I'd like to believe that there is a more competent story than that, and that there is something beyond Battler's whiny protests.

d) It's ridiculous for me, or anyone, to try and prove that what we saw happened. Especially when the burden of proof is on Battler, and therefore anti-fantasy to prove that it didn't. What I'm hearing from the majority of anti-fantasy believers is that we can't believe anything we see except for a totally biased main character who barely witnesses anything...but even then he could be being toyed around with Beatrice, so we don't even know there.

To me a good mystery is where there is a solid, straightforward set up with good/suspicious characters, and you go along trying to work out what is actually presented into a conclusion.

What we seem to have here is a jumbled real-meta-game world with wooden characters that are all the victim, and a presentation that is supposed to not be trusted. That's not mystery. It's just a diversion, and we're waiting for the outcome to be told to us by the answer arcs.
Modified by noteDhero, Aug 15, 2009 9:30 AM
 
Aug 15, 2009 9:59 AM

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One thing to keep in mind is that no one knows the right answer because the series is only half finished. VN readers know more and have more information to work with but we don't have solid answers either. It may seem like someone is trying to guide or tell you the correct answer but it's more along the lines of guiding you to their train of thought.
 
Aug 15, 2009 10:09 AM

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It seems like noteDhero is really busy in here. You guys made this episode much better now.


"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie."
 
Aug 15, 2009 10:16 AM

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MarthX said:
One thing to keep in mind is that no one knows the right answer because the series is only half finished. VN readers know more and have more information to work with but we don't have solid answers either. It may seem like someone is trying to guide or tell you the correct answer but it's more along the lines of guiding you to their train of thought.


Oh, no, I totally understand that. I just find it amusing, and therefore worthy of discussion. To me, the a lot anti-fantasy side is dismissing a lot of what's happened as untrustworthy, and I find that fascinating.

As I said, the best thing about this show is the community. Discussing all of this as I watch a new episode is a little thrilling for me.

Lol @ Siva
 
Aug 15, 2009 10:23 AM

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I went through and some of the comments people had when reading through EP2.

Pretty much the same. Many people wondering where's the mystery, why would the series kill its own mystery so early. It's the thought process most people have at this stage. As you can see, the thought process has dramatically changed since then.
 
Aug 15, 2009 10:28 AM

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noteDhero said:
Oh, no, I totally understand that. I just find it amusing, and therefore worthy of discussion. To me, the a lot anti-fantasy side is dismissing a lot of what's happened as untrustworthy, and I find that fascinating.


You'll understand why people on the anti-fantasy side are so dismissive once EP3 roles in. Right now you probably have the correct mindset in the why should I believe everyone but Battler aspect.
 
Aug 15, 2009 10:58 AM

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MarthX said:
I went through and some of the comments people had when reading through EP2.

Pretty much the same. Many people wondering where's the mystery, why would the series kill its own mystery so early. It's the thought process most people have at this stage. As you can see, the thought process has dramatically changed since then.
Dark_Requiem said:

You'll understand why people on the anti-fantasy side are so dismissive once EP3 roles in. Right now you probably have the correct mindset in the why should I believe everyone but Battler aspect.

And that's why I'm so intrigued at what could possibly happen that would make me believe otherwise.
 
Aug 15, 2009 11:05 AM

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noteDhero said:
And that's why I'm so intrigued at what could possibly happen that would make me believe otherwise.


HAHA I guess that's why your gonna have to wait ;)

(Though EP2 is my favorite one since it's probably the hardest to solve besides maybe EP4)
Modified by Golden_Truth, Aug 15, 2009 11:09 AM
 
Aug 15, 2009 12:36 PM

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A little unrelated, but a word of advice: The chan boards are exploding with spoilers for End of The Golden Witch, so take care. Unless you want to be spoilered into oblvion, of course.
 
Aug 15, 2009 1:19 PM

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@OmegaDenmad Half of them are fake spoilers though T_T...

I do hope people enjoy this chapter of Umineko when episode 8 comes out and the murders are shown to them. It might seem like "There's nothing so far for 2 episodes!!!" but from the preview I am looking very forward to episode 8. :)


 
Aug 15, 2009 1:53 PM

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OmegaDenmad said:
A little unrelated, but a word of advice: The chan boards are exploding with spoilers for End of The Golden Witch, so take care. Unless you want to be spoilered into oblvion, of course.


I'm going to keep 4chan blocked until it's translated. Hopefully it won't take too long.

*prays for an October release*
 
Aug 15, 2009 1:54 PM

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I don't know what's true and what's false. Posting in those topics is exactly like reading the novel! X__x

Though the screencaps are enough to know a lot of it is true.

And you are right. It's too tempting, so gone it is. xD Like they always says, the forbidden fruit is the most tempting...
 
Aug 15, 2009 1:55 PM

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Let's not bring EP5 spoilers here, even in spoiler tags.

I'd hate to have to avoid this place too.
 
Aug 15, 2009 2:04 PM

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I really hope witch-hunt translates EP5 fast. I'm on EP3 right now but i'll be finished by then XD
 
Aug 15, 2009 7:44 PM

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Well whatever the case, plz not to bring any unrelated spoiler to the anime episode discussion. It is far too early to spoil us here. And this is not a spoiler discussion thread either.


"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie."
 
Aug 16, 2009 2:12 AM

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Breatrice looked weird in school uniform. <.<
 
Aug 16, 2009 2:55 AM

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Aug 16, 2009 4:18 AM

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CUNTDESTROYER666 said:
What the fuck is the point of this show?

THIS.
Having not read the vn, I have NO clue what's going on and very tempted to drop it.
.
 
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