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Poll: Umineko no Naku Koro ni Episode 5 Discussion


Jul 30, 2009 1:22 PM

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InsaneZero said:
Nope. That place isn't the real world, it's purgatory. What goes on over there has nothing to do with the outside world.

That in itself is a pro-fantasy stance. Purgatory is a religious and therefor fantasy or paranormal concept. Just as the idea of witches and magic is also religious. Purgatory is a Christian concept, Witches and magic are Animistic concepts.

Both are fantasy.

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Jul 30, 2009 1:25 PM

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That was a really cool ending.
Was the Rika like character actually talking to the audience or to Battler.
It was interesting how they all came back to life and then died when he didn't believe.
So excited for next week.

Where there is no imagination there is no horror. || Arthur Conan Doyle || Happy Halloween!
 
Jul 30, 2009 1:41 PM

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ukonkivi said:
InsaneZero said:
Nope. That place isn't the real world, it's purgatory. What goes on over there has nothing to do with the outside world.

That in itself is a pro-fantasy stance. Purgatory is a religious and therefor fantasy or paranormal concept. Just as the idea of witches and magic is also religious. Purgatory is a Christian concept, Witches and magic are Animistic concepts.

Both are fantasy.[/quote
ukonkivi said:
InsaneZero said:
Nope. That place isn't the real world, it's purgatory. What goes on over there has nothing to do with the outside world.




You have a interesting point of view.
That in itself is a pro-fantasy stance. Purgatory is a religious and therefor fantasy or paranormal concept. Just as the idea of witches and magic is also religious. Purgatory is a Christian concept, Witches and magic are Animistic concepts.

Both are fantasy.
ukonkivi said:
InsaneZero said:
Nope. That place isn't the real world, it's purgatory. What goes on over there has nothing to do with the outside world.

That in itself is a pro-fantasy stance. Purgatory is a religious and therefor fantasy or paranormal concept. Just as the idea of witches and magic is also religious. Purgatory is a Christian concept, Witches and magic are Animistic concepts.

Both are fantasy.




You have a interessting point of view.

I would also say that Umineko is about diferent universes with different rules.
But I don't agree in your point that thee are no limits in scince.
There are... We only know the rules of our own solar system for sure.
Or we asume to....

And as I mentioned befor the exact genre of Umineko is may be
Weird fiction:



So it could be any thing from fantasy to scifi combined with psychological and its main subject realety vs surealety.

Its semilar to the Cthulu mythos. At the end you don't know if they are elder gods or alien with advanced technology or the main chars are just mad.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_fiction
Modified by ShogoKAWADA, Jul 30, 2009 1:46 PM
The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear ist the fear of the unknown.

H.P. Lovecraft
 
Jul 30, 2009 1:43 PM

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ukonkivi said:
InsaneZero said:
Nope. That place isn't the real world, it's purgatory. What goes on over there has nothing to do with the outside world.

That in itself is a pro-fantasy stance. Purgatory is a religious and therefor fantasy or paranormal concept. Just as the idea of witches and magic is also religious. Purgatory is a Christian concept, Witches and magic are Animistic concepts.

Both are fantasy.

I would say, that your point is true. But you know, most anit-fantasy believer don't deny witches or magic, they mostly deny magic in that world of Umineko, and say that the murders were carried out by a human being. To be honest, I'm mostly anti-fantasy too, but mostly because it's much more interesting to think about theories (like Cluedo: who? where? with what?" than just sitting back and watching the story and think "oh, it was done with magic".
 
Jul 30, 2009 1:45 PM
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ukonkivi said:
InsaneZero said:
Nope. That place isn't the real world, it's purgatory. What goes on over there has nothing to do with the outside world.

That in itself is a pro-fantasy stance. Purgatory is a religious and therefor fantasy or paranormal concept. Just as the idea of witches and magic is also religious. Purgatory is a Christian concept, Witches and magic are Animistic concepts.

Both are fantasy.


Let me correct myself:

That is a place that is called purgatory. It's unknown if that place actually exists in the form you see in this episode.

As a hardcore Anti-Fantasy person myself, I believe that such a place, and the events that transpire there, are completely metaphorical. But that's a discussion for another time, since I'm veering very dangerously into seriously insane spoiler territory.
 
Jul 30, 2009 1:48 PM

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SilentXenocide said:
What are you saying couldn't have been done by humans? Closed room murders?

Well, I suppose there are a few ways someone can kill someone without entering the room. For instance, every room could be rigged to shoot out ice picks at people and kill them with a mechanical device. And that there is an unknown control room for killing people. That would be nor paranormal or science fiction. Though that still doesn't explain some things.

I'm just going with likelihoods.

SilentXenocide said:
Are you assuming that everything you've seen is true

It's bad animating and storytelling if they drew something that didn't happen.

SilentXenocide said:
and that there are no other means for the closed room murders to have taken place?

There's more to the issue here than just closed room murders.

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Jul 30, 2009 2:10 PM

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The golden butterflies and the fact that Beatrice talked to Maria while she was in the last closed room.
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:12 PM

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SilentXenocide said:
I can say right now that there are scenes in episode 1 that never happened. I won't say which because I don't want to spoil.

Then that in itself it proof of something fantasy or science fiction involved. Or bad writing on the part of the author.

SilentXenocide said:
For example?

There's more to the closed room murders than just being in closed rooms.

Mechanical rooms still shouldn't have made Natsuhi shoot herself.
Where did the letters come from?

I can't personally think of any way those butterflies could have existed with modern technology. If it's a hallucination, it's a mass hallucination, and mass hallucinations are unlikely.

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Jul 30, 2009 2:14 PM
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This episode is good, can't wait for the next. It's finally getting exciting :D
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:19 PM
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I just saw this episode subbed. Better than all the other episodes so far.

People should stop arguing over anti-mystery and anti-fantasy.

I'll use Battler's Devil Proof reasoning and say that it is impossible to prove either way, at least so far. Can't wait for the answer arcs to come~
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:20 PM

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If there is even a human involved at all at this point, I would say the most likely possibility is that Maria is at least a heavy key player in all of the killings.

SilentXenocide said:
Will they accept the witch? Or will they doubt what they see and follow Battler's line of reasoning

Battler's line of reasoning is a highly illogical and laughably stupid one.
It's only logical to doubt one's eyes when there is a scientific reason to believe there are limitations to what their eyes are seeing.

In this case, there should not be reason to doubt one's eyes unless there is either fantasy or sci-fi control of the situation involved.

You're really just repeating the obvious that others have said.

AntiDentite said:
I take it you've never read The Murder of Roger Ackroyd.

Are you saying we're seeing it through the eyes of an unreliable narrator?

That would be...better writing.
But if there's no "perspective" here to be tainted by insanity or some such, it's bad writing.
I still don't like the idea of this show using an unreliable narrator.
Modified by ukonkivi, Jul 30, 2009 2:36 PM

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Jul 30, 2009 2:30 PM
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I really feel like debunking all of your theories, but they're all spoils.

Anyways, I'll pick something easier.
The story is first relayed to the Endless Witch Beatrice. Whatever the story is, we do not know.

Beatrice then INTERPRETS the story, and relays it to Battler. Battler then attempts to debunk all supernatural, or prove that said murders can be done by human(s).

Thinking logically, and you shall never win the witch. Illogically, and you just may defeat the Endless Witch.

A ridiculous example of this...:


Anyways, at least how I think it goes. But thinking logically will make you lose.
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:33 PM
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ukonkivi said:
If there is even a human involved at all at this point, I would say the most likely possibility is that Maria is at least a heavy key player in all of the killings.

SilentXenocide said:
Will they accept the witch? Or will they doubt what they see and follow Battler's line of reasoning

Battler's line of reasoning is a highly illogical and laughable stupid one.
It's only logical to doubt one's eyes when there is a scientific reason to believe there are limitations to what their eyes are seeing.

In this case, there should not be reason to doubt one's eyes unless there is either fantasy or sci-fi control of the situation involved.

You're really just repeating the obvious that others have said.

AntiDentite said:
I take it you've never read The Murder of Roger Ackroyd.

Are you saying we're seeing it through the eyes of an unreliable narrator?

That would be...better writing.
But if there's no "perspective" here to be tainted by insanity or some such, it's bad writing.
I still don't like the idea of this show using an unreliable narrator.


Most of points you bring up are explained later on. But right now, keep in mind that the typhoon not only keeps people on the island, it also prevents people outside the island from knowing what goes on the island. That's the key to understanding why an unreliable narrator exists.
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:46 PM

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Lol, I don't know why, but I just feel like telling everyone to shut up, sit down, and watch the f***ing show. :D

[Edit] Hahaha Ukonkivi. You've already completely gone over to anti-mystery and given in to Beatrice? Maybe we anti-fantasy people, after reading through game 4, have had our minds so messed up that we can't think logically anymore. Or... maybe we know something you... don't. :P
Modified by DrZed, Jul 30, 2009 2:50 PM
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:51 PM

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Zedrane said:
Lol, I don't know why, but I just feel like telling everyone to shut up, sit down, and watch the f***ing show. :D


^ This. As long as people are not going to just quit watching the show after this episode, I have no urge to try and explain things to them that the show itself will explain in time.
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:51 PM

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SilentXenocide said:
Why does a perspective need to be tainted by insanity?

I didn't imply it needed to be tainted by insanity. I said "or some such".

SilentXenocide said:
What happens during the tea party is completely irrelevant.

Then they just gave us a bunch of annoying filler.

Also, Battler is looking for answers where there are none because it appears he desperately desires for witches NOT to exist. It's not based on logic. He bases his search on an emotional need not to believe.

All the evidence of the current situation he's in doesn't leave much room for non supernatural or science fiction means.

But he's searching for them anyway because he doesn't WANT there to be a witch.
Modified by ukonkivi, Jul 30, 2009 2:56 PM

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Jul 30, 2009 2:57 PM

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Wattson said:
Zedrane said:
Lol, I don't know why, but I just feel like telling everyone to shut up, sit down, and watch the f***ing show. :D


^ This. As long as people are not going to just quit watching the show after this episode, I have no urge to try and explain things to them that the show itself will explain in time.


^ This. Exactly. Argumentative people! There is probably a reason it has so many raving fans! I don't mind explaining things that have already happened if you have questions. But don't go raising arguments that we can't explain without spoiling. It's like an automatic lose unless we spoil you....
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:58 PM

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I don't follow the manga so i can't really say if it is better or worst...
I just loved this episode!
Battler is getting cooler and cooler for me *-*
And yay!
Beatrice apeared!
 
Jul 30, 2009 2:59 PM

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ukonkivi said:
SilentXenocide said:
Why does a perspective need to be tainted by insanity?

I didn't imply it needed to be tainted by insanity. I said "or some such".

SilentXenocide said:
What happens during the tea party is completely irrelevant.

Then they just gave us a bunch of annoying filler.

Also, Battler is looking for answers where there are none because it appears he desperately desires for witches NOT to exist. It's not based on logic. He bases his search on an emotional need not to believe.

All the evidence of the current situation he's in doesn't leave much room for non supernatural or science fiction means.

But he's searching for them anyway because he doesn't WANT there to be a witch.
ukonkivi said:
SilentXenocide said:
Why does a perspective need to be tainted by insanity?

I didn't imply it needed to be tainted by insanity. I said "or some such".

SilentXenocide said:
What happens during the tea party is completely irrelevant.

Then they just gave us a bunch of annoying filler.

Also, Battler is looking for answers where there are none because it appears he desperately desires for witches NOT to exist. It's not based on logic. He bases his search on an emotional need not to believe.

All the evidence of the current situation he's in doesn't leave much room for non supernatural or science fiction means.

But he's searching for them anyway because he doesn't WANT there to be a witch.


It was hardly filler. That scene set up the plot for the ENTIRE rest of the series. And exactly! "All the evidence of the CURRENT situation" doesn't.

Also, you are entirely missing the point. :P
Modified by DrZed, Jul 30, 2009 3:10 PM
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:00 PM

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SilentXenocide said:

Why would Battler doubt his eyes? When did he ever see magic killing someone on the island? What happens during the tea party is completely irrelevant. I don't even see how you can argue this after only watching episode 1.

My statement there there's no reason here to doubt one's eyes includes Battler.
And in this case, what he's seen my not have been directly paranormal seeming things, aside from the butterflies unless that was a lie made up by Beatrice.

But what he has seen has not left room to logically reach the conclusion he has made.
Zedrane said:
It was hardly filler. That scene set up the plot for the ENTIRE rest of the series.

Looks like I'm getting mixed messages here.

Well anyway, I at least appreciate y'alls effort not to mention spoilers. If I started seeing enough spoilers in this episode or others I would start reporting people.

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Jul 30, 2009 3:05 PM

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With the Golden Butterflies, I mean that Battler shoots one and it splits up into 4 or 5. That's not something simple to do. Moreover, the argument of perspective can't be made because it is something that Battler was in the room for.

Regarding Maria seeing Beatrice, unless you're trying to say that Maria killed everyone (which I have a very hard time believing happened unscathed) I do believe that unless this is all just massive suicide (still exempting the case of Natsuhi), then there is an extra person on the island. I will point out that I originally stated that there is a 19th person on the island. I do believe that Beatrice has a lot (if not everything to do with it) but if we want to split hairs, Beatrice doesn't necessarily have to be person 19.

My main point is that it's illogical to think that there isn't a 19th person as Battler seems to harp about. I accept Beatrice because it fits with the world created in the Naku Koro Ni series. So if she wants to accept the fanfare of the murders, that's totally fine. Something has to have sparked it, though, I really hope it isn't another disease.
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:07 PM

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ukonkivi said:
SilentXenocide said:

Why would Battler doubt his eyes? When did he ever see magic killing someone on the island? What happens during the tea party is completely irrelevant. I don't even see how you can argue this after only watching episode 1.

My statement there there's no reason here to doubt one's eyes includes Battler.
And in this case, what he's seen my not have been directly paranormal seeming things, aside from the butterflies unless that was a lie made up by Beatrice.

But what he has seen has not left room to logically reach the conclusion he has made.
Zedrane said:
It was hardly filler. That scene set up the plot for the ENTIRE rest of the series.

Looks like I'm getting mixed messages here.

Well anyway, I at least appreciate y'alls effort not to mention spoilers. If I started seeing enough spoilers in this episode or others I would start reporting people.


What he meant, I think, was that what happened during the tea party was completely irrelevant to whether or not the murders were done by a human or a witch, which it was in that respect. It is not, however, irrelevant to the series. at all

I think it is totally ridiculous to deny Beatrice's very existence as well. Beatrice obviously, at least in some form, exists. But I do believe the murders were carried out by humans. Battler is not so much not believing she exists as denying her. He does not want to give in to the witch. He thinks she's bullshit. And by denying her he will destroy her.
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:07 PM

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noteDhero said:
With the Golden Butterflies, I mean that Battler shoots one and it splits up into 4 or 5. That's not something simple to do. Moreover, the argument of perspective can't be made because it is something that Battler was in the room for.

I suppose the part about him shooting the butterflies could have been made up as well.
But I'm pretty much in agreement with you as well. Part of my point as well.

Not only were butterflies shown in the room. There were actively acknowledged by the people there left alive. Including Battler.

Or so says the narrator.

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Jul 30, 2009 3:08 PM

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ukonkivi, your whole attitude is horrible and pisses every VN-reader off.
We can't explain anything without spoiling yet you keep trying to prove your point.
Yes, I do find it amusing that the series manged to cause such a big argument whether it was a witch or not HOWEVER the forces arguing are on a total different scale. One being uninformed whilst the other can't use his information without ruining the experience for the first.
Believe what you believe, we believe what we believe.
Don't look down at anyone for believing in something else. If you do, keep it to yourself.

 
Jul 30, 2009 3:10 PM

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Am I the only one who starts to hate Battler A LOT? He's so annoying when he won't believe Maria and Beatrice -.- But if he's right I'm the dumb one but I don't like him any case :( So this is the "worst" episode so far. Even though it was a bit good.
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:12 PM

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Tsunami said:
ukonkivi, your whole attitude is horrible and pisses every VN-reader off.
We can't explain anything without spoiling yet you keep trying to prove your point.
Yes, I do find it amusing that the series manged to cause such a big argument whether it was a witch or not HOWEVER the forces arguing are on a total different scale. One being uninformed whilst the other can't use his information without ruining the experience for the first.
Believe what you believe, we believe what we believe.
Don't look down at anyone for believing in something else. If you do, keep it to yourself.

I kind of already covered that with this post:

Zedrane said:
Argumentative people! There is probably a reason it has so many raving fans! I don't mind explaining things that have already happened if you have questions. But don't go raising arguments that we can't explain without spoiling. It's like an automatic lose unless we spoil you....
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:12 PM

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Tsunami said:
ukonkivi, your whole attitude is horrible and pisses every VN-reader off.

Lol, "horrible".

I can't help the fact that y'all are a bunch of VN elitists who own the VNs, Manga, plushies, and ect., and have known about things that happen in here long before the anime was published.

I'm commenting on what I've seen on my viewing of the matter. These topics are for people who watch the anime. Not oh so superior VN people.

I'll look at the issue however I want.
If this is your attitude, then perhaps VN readers deserve to be pissed off.

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Jul 30, 2009 3:14 PM

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KeroroGunsou said:
Am I the only one who starts to hate Battler A LOT? He's so annoying when he won't believe Maria and Beatrice -.- But if he's right I'm the dumb one but I don't like him any case :( So this is the "worst" episode so far. Even though it was a bit good.

Yes, you are. Battler is f***king awesome, end of story.

ukonkivi said:
Tsunami said:
ukonkivi, your whole attitude is horrible and pisses every VN-reader off.

Lol, "horrible".

I can't help the fact that y'all are a bunch of VN elitists who own the VNs, Manga, plushies, and ect., and have known about things that happen in here long before the anime was published.

I'm commenting on what I've seen on my viewing of the matter. These topics are for people who watch the anime. Not oh so superior VN people.

I'll look at the issue however I want.
If this is your attitude, then perhaps VN readers deserve to be pissed off.

Well, first off I don't think many of us own the manga since it's not translated and we don't own any plushies cause there aren't any. Lolz, I could'nt help myself. :P

Ignore Tsunami. I understand where you are coming from completely and I rather had the same opinion at first. I'm sure I would have the same opinion as you if I was just watching the anime without prior knowledge also.

I'm sure you can imagine how annoying it is to be able to explain things to people easily, but you can't because of spoilers. All I can say is just watch the show and all will come out. If you still think it's dumb then probably Umineko just isn't your thing.
Modified by DrZed, Jul 30, 2009 3:28 PM
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:20 PM

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@Tsunami
I disagree. I don't think that ukonkivi has a horrible attitude. I've seen a few of his posts here and there, and he's definitely being very respectful, if not a little argumentative, which breeds the really good discussion that is going on.

I personally think there is a problem if there is an argument to be made that can't take evidence from the past 5 episodes, because, once again, I feel like everything has to make sense all of the time, and you just can't erase much of what has happened to prove a point.

I'd like to hear thoughts on the "anti-fantasy" side that can use what we have seen so far as a basis for their conclusions.

@Keroro
Nope, I hate him too, you said a lot of what I did in my first post.
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:21 PM

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------------------------

I just remark that... But have you real life ? XD (it's not a insult. ^^')
Because like 100 posts by day... :p
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:22 PM

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noteDhero said:
I feel like everything has to make sense all of the time.


Okay you can stop watching Umineko right now. It will never make sense until the end when it all comes together. :P The whole fun of the series is to try and make sense of it until the answers. I've read up to episode 4 and it makes even less sense then than it does now.
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:22 PM

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ukonkivi said:
Tsunami said:
ukonkivi, your whole attitude is horrible and pisses every VN-reader off.

Lol, "horrible".

I can't help the fact that y'all are a bunch of VN elitists who own the VNs, Manga, plushies, and ect., and have known about things that happen in here long before the anime was published.

I'm commenting on what I've seen on my viewing of the matter. These topics are for people who watch the anime. Not oh so superior VN people.

I'll look at the issue however I want.
If this is your attitude, then perhaps VN readers deserve to be pissed off.

This is anime-related discussion. We, "VN Elitists" don't have any problems with random speculations, on the contrary, that's awesome. But throwing off an argument about something that hasn't been revealed yet, acting as if you know everything is no better. You have found out who the culprit is, haven't you? It's the witch Beatrice right? Well then. Fine, it was accepted. The thing which annoys everyone is the fact that you won't take any other opinions on the matter. Not that it matters, I guess you've already gone to the other side. The point of the argument was proving if it was a witch or a human but you aren't even giving it a chance... I tihnk you won't see what I mean anyway.
*sigh

noteDhero said:
@Tsunami
I disagree. I don't think that ukonkivi has a horrible attitude. I've seen a few of his posts here and there, and he's definitely being very respectful, if not a little argumentative, which breeds the really good discussion that is going on.

I personally think there is a problem if there is an argument to be made that can't take evidence from the past 5 episodes, because, once again, I feel like everything has to make sense all of the time, and you just can't erase much of what has happened to prove a point.

I'd like to hear thoughts on the "anti-fantasy" side that can use what we have seen so far as a basis for their conclusions.

Ofcourse, I believed it was Beatrice at first and then after the story progressed I changed my mind. Around the 2nd/3rd episode. Nevertheless, I never looked down at people who held different opinions.
Modified by Tsunami, Jul 30, 2009 3:26 PM

 
Jul 30, 2009 3:26 PM

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noteDhero said:
@Keroro
Nope, I hate him too, you said a lot of what I did in my first post.


Like I said Battler isn't really not believing that Beatrice exists, at least in some form. He is denying her to save his family and get rid of her and her bullshit "golden land".
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:30 PM

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xoxo said:
wtf this became totally stupid in an instant?!
waiting for ep6 before judging, but i don't have high hopes...

why does everyone remember their death's and nobody really cares.. how could someone actually not believe in a witch after so many people got killed and revived omg i'm so disappointed because this was the anime i was most excited about this season....


this is Beatrice's first attempt to get Battler to acknowledge the existence of magic. the tea party takes place in the meta world (the world above the repeating cycle) so its unlikely that the members (save for Battler) were anything but magical constructs to implement peer pressure/bandwagon tactics.


 
Jul 30, 2009 3:34 PM

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ukonkivi said:

Well, I suppose there are a few ways someone can kill someone without entering the room. For instance, every room could be rigged to shoot out ice picks at people and kill them with a mechanical device. And that there is an unknown control room for killing people. That would be nor paranormal or science fiction. Though that still doesn't explain some things.

I'm just going with likelihoods.


Wait... I just came back to this post. Are you sure you haven't read the VN? Ahahahahaahahahahahaahhaahah that's the first thing Battler thinks of to try and explain the murders.
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:34 PM

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Tsunami said:
This is anime-related discussion. We, "VN Elitists" don't have any problems with random speculations, on the contrary, that's awesome.

Sure seems like a bunch of "well you only believe that because you haven't seen as much as we have, so just accept the fact we're right until you see more" to me.

I say something about what it seems like to me is going on, someone disagrees, and because my mind doesn't come to the same conclusion, I respond back with argument and rebuttal. In search to at least try to get the most logical conclusion one can come to about the series. That's just the way it works.

The stuff we're debating in this thread really shouldn't have to contain spoilers to debate.

MasterOot said:
this is Beatrice's first attempt to get Battler to acknowledge the existence of magic. the tea party takes place in the meta world (the world above the repeating cycle) so its unlikely that the members (save for Battler) were anything but magical constructs to implement peer pressure/bandwagon tactics.

The very idea of a meta world is essentially magical.

ShiroiRyu said:
But have you real life ?

I'm a witch. I'm as real as Beatrice. Take that how you will.
Perhaps I don't exist and I'm just trying to get you to think I do.:P
Modified by ukonkivi, Jul 30, 2009 3:42 PM

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Jul 30, 2009 3:40 PM

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ukonkivi said:
Tsunami said:
This is anime-related discussion. We, "VN Elitists" don't have any problems with random speculations, on the contrary, that's awesome.

Sure seems like a bunch of "well you only believe that because you haven't seen as much as we have, so just accept the fact we're right until you see more" to me.

I say something about what it seems like to me is going on, someone disagrees, and because my mind doesn't come to the same conclusion, I respond back with argument and rebuttal. In search to at least try to get the most logical conclusion one can come to about the series. That's just the way it works.

The stuff we're debating in this thread really shouldn't have to contain spoilers to debate.
You get that idea because you're not agreeing to see anything past your point of view. I haven't tried to convince you that an anti-fantasy side exists. I honestly didn't care. But then at one point I read that you said you'd flame and look down at people with different (illogical) opinions or something along those lines. That's what triggered me to actually try and put some sense in you. Then again, this is still not Episode 2 and at your point all of the "VN Elitists" reached more or less the same logical conclusion. The only reason (I can see) people might go anti-fantasy at this point of the story is simply the influence of the forum.
ukonkivi said:

MasterOot said:
this is Beatrice's first attempt to get Battler to acknowledge the existence of magic. the tea party takes place in the meta world (the world above the repeating cycle) so its unlikely that the members (save for Battler) were anything but magical constructs to implement peer pressure/bandwagon tactics.

The very idea of a meta world is essentially magical.

Let people believe what they want. Eventually they will see the whole picture regarding the difference between the existence of magic and the massacre done with the use of magic.
Modified by Tsunami, Jul 30, 2009 3:45 PM

 
Jul 30, 2009 3:42 PM

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I feel so left out because everyone seem to have played/read the VN and the manga.
I have no clue what you're all talking about...

I don't understand shit, but it's awesome.

edit: Battler saw the witch come out of nowhere, he even speaks to her but still doesn't believe she exists? WHAT?
Everyone seems to look very lightly on the fact that they've all DIED. WHAT?
Modified by stAtic91, Jul 30, 2009 3:47 PM
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:47 PM

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stAtic91 said:
I feel so left out because everyone seem to have played/read the VN and the manga.
I have no clue what you're all talking about...

I don't understand shit, but it's awesome.


If you keep that attitude you will greatly enjoy Umineko my friend! No one really understands shit in Umineko. Except maybe the writer.

@Ukonkivi: I honestly completely forgot what you were trying to prove again.... Was it that Battler was being illogical?
Modified by DrZed, Jul 30, 2009 3:50 PM
 
Jul 30, 2009 3:51 PM

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Tsunami said:
But throwing off an argument about something that hasn't been revealed yet,

I am acting upon the logic of what has been presented so far, and responding to things with logic.

I'm not throwing anything out, I'm trying to debate with logic.
People so far have even done a good job of avoiding spoilers by coming up with alternate examples and comparison.

"Throwing off" implies to ignore something. I'm not ignoring anything.

Tsunami said:
acting as if you know everything is no better.

I'm just trying to debate and see things from a logical perspective.

Tsunami said:
You have found out who the culprit is, haven't you? It's the witch Beatrice right?

Actually, I still have a few theories that Beatrice isn't the culprit. Or at least isn't the only one. It even seems possible that she's the biggest victim in this whole thing.

I'm saying that the highest likelyhood is that there is a paranormal element or at least science fiction to this if not paranormal.

Tsunami said:
The thing which annoys everyone is the fact that you won't take any other opinions on the matter.

What on earth do you mean by "other opinions"? Either something is illogical or it's not.
My brain still sees the "anti-fantasy" side as illogical. As in a disagree with them.

Opinion is something of subjective taste. I simply don't think there is or will be room for theirs. If I believed it were left open, I would just think it's their taste or "opinion".

Zedrane said:
@Ukonkivi: I honestly completely forgot what you were trying to prove again.... Was it that Battler was being illogical?

I would appear he's completely throwing out the paranormal from what can be seen so far because he has an emotional desire for it not to exist. For instance, witches, or magic, which would including the meta world because the idea of a meta world is a magical thing.

Instead of putting even the most likely options as possible, he opts for the highly improbable. It's not logical to assume the improbable.

Even when faced with the extraordinary, he want to find a typical solution.

It's about like a scientist seeing balled lighting right in from of them and claiming that this is just preposterous and balled lighting couldn't exist. When s/he has no other viable means of explanation.
Modified by ukonkivi, Jul 30, 2009 4:01 PM

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Jul 30, 2009 3:59 PM

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I've already said it before, there's nothing wrong with not accepting other opinions if you don't think they are possible (after considering them of course). However, don't look down on people for having other opinions. At this point nothing is revealed and after the 4th Episode (arc) you will still have many many questions yet you will be capable of seeing far far more than just a glimpse.
Since we don't want to spoil you we can't give you an explanation that will satisfy you, thus, you will not accept our explanations.
From the beginning I just wanted to help you understand that other opinions are possible and you still haven't seen the whole picture, even if at the moment this is not possible. This might not seem anime-related but even with influence from the forum there seem to be people who are anti-fantasy at this point (god knows how). Have fun watching Umineko and good luck with your theories.

 
Jul 30, 2009 4:02 PM
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Love to see everyone (including me) thrown into such confusion.
There may be a slight difference, which side to stand on, but we are totally trapped by Ryukishi.
All I hope is that the following arcs plunge all of us into a even more chaotic mystery and we all enjoy it (I'm still on the 3rd arc of VN).
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:03 PM

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Wow.

What just happened...
<img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/kitsu_ayame/Untitled-6.png" />
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:04 PM

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Ukonkivi said:
Zedrane said:
@Ukonkivi: I honestly completely forgot what you were trying to prove again.... Was it that Battler was being illogical?

I would appear he's completely throwing out the paranormal from what can be seen so far because he has an emotional desire for it not to exist. For instance, witches, or magic, which would including the meta world because the idea of a meta world is a magical thing.

Instead of putting even the most likely options as possible, he opts for the highly improbable. It's not logical to assume the improbable.

Even when faced with the extraordinary, he want to find a typical solution.

It's about like a scientist seeing balled lighting right in from of them and claiming that this is just preposterous and balled lighting couldn't exist. When s/he has no other viable means of explanation.


You just don't get Battler.... I don't believe that at this point Battler really does not believe that Beatrice does actually not exist at all. The whole point is that if he accepts her she could do whatever she wanted. She is obviously evil so he's calling her bluff that it was all magic. He is fighting back by denying the witch because he thinks there is more going on then she's letting on and he won't let her do as she pleases.
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:09 PM

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Tsunami said:
However, don't look down on people for having other opinions.

It's perfectly natural to look down upon logic you think is wrong.
Though perhaps that's the wrong choice of words. Whatever the case, I've simple possibly developed a paranoia about people's lack of understanding or willingness to understand paranormal concepts.

I suppose I'll think of a better word latter to describe the matter when this series is all over and I'm caught up.

I've had in my life, a, frustrating experience of many people not only knowing and misusing paranormal terminology, but after much attempt to explain the situation, they remain ignorant of matters. Almost as if some people have a psychological resistance to understanding certain concepts of philosophy or the paranormal.

I honestly don't want to be proven right here. And I'll feel slightly irritated if I end up saying the same things after I'm done with everything Umineko.

Honestly looking down upon something is not logical, but neither is not doing so. It's an emotional reaction to where you feel you have a better understanding somewhere along the lines. I feel that others understand the storyline of Umineko no Naku Koro ni better than I do, but I get the feeling, or rather, the notion from responses in this thread that others are not quite treating the area of the paranormal logically.

I don't see room for the current possibilities that have been given against my theory.
And thanks for the well luck wishes.

Zedrane said:
You just don't get Battler.... I don't believe that at this point Battler really does not believe that Beatrice does actually not exist at all. The whole point is that if he accepts her she could do whatever she wanted. She is obviously evil so he's calling her bluff that it was all magic. He is fighting back by denying the witch because he thinks there is more going on then she's letting on and he won't let her do as she pleases.

Well then I suppose Battler is using his own form of paranormal magic.
Magic of will. Or chaos magic. Though what he's said implies he literally doesn't believe what would appear to be right in front of him.
Modified by ukonkivi, Jul 30, 2009 4:16 PM

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Jul 30, 2009 4:15 PM

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For anyone that believes strongly that a witch was behind it, let me say a theory that could turn everything around. It was already mentioned but it seems many have overlooked it.

This isn't a spoiler, just a theory

What proof do you have that 6 people died in the first twilight? Nanjo? So you automatically rule out the possibility that Nanjo could be lying? He could be an accomplice you know.

Because you see the bodies? Who's to say that those are all real corpses? There could be a doll made to look like one put along the real ones. Unless you actually touch and examine the body, you wouldn't be able to tell one is fake.

And the most interesting one. Only Kanon and Hideyoshi saw Shannon's corpse because it was partially hidden behind some things. What if Hideyoshi and Kanon were lying? Then there'd be no proof whatsoever that Shannon died.

If someone was lying and there weren't 6 people dead there then that extra person could have hidden themself and killed the others when they separated. This theory smashes the illusion that it was only possible for a 19th person, Witch

As for the golden butterflies, that's not important. The main point is explaining how the murders could have been accomplished with human means.
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:20 PM

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Even if others did it, I still think there's a strong possibility the witch drove them to do it in the first place. Making her really the murderer.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:33 PM

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ukonkivi said:
Even if others did it, I still think there's a strong possibility the witch drove them to do it in the first place. Making her really the murderer.


I for my self would say that no one is rigth or wrong.
Every thing is possibile or impossibile.

It belongs to your natur and taste and point of view.

And I don't think that the ansaw arc will solve the war between antifantasy or antimystery.
When the writing is good. Maybe the end is something difrent.


Oh and I understand Battler point.
For example:
You open your door and rigth befor you is a creature you never seen befor.
It has a human shape but a squit like head.
Most people would close the door and just say :"Its just my imagination".
Modified by ShogoKAWADA, Jul 30, 2009 4:42 PM
The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear ist the fear of the unknown.

H.P. Lovecraft
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:39 PM

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ukonkivi said:
Even if others did it, I still think there's a strong possibility the witch drove them to do it in the first place. Making her really the murderer.
That is a possibility. Though I personally don't believe that one to be true I can not deny it.

One of the rules stated in their game is that
*edit* Whoops sorry. Some might consider this a spoiler so I added a spoiler tag:
Whether Battler believes that magic exists or no at this point really does not matter. He is denying that the witch is the culprit. Which is the same as denying her very self. Which means, if he's right, she was also not controlling the family members. Which is why I don't believe that theory.

At this point I'd say it's rather a thing of pride about Battler not accepting the witch. If admits magic exists he is admitting he was wrong and Beatrice was there all along.
Modified by DrZed, Jul 30, 2009 4:48 PM
 
Jul 30, 2009 4:40 PM

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MarthX said:
xoxo said:
wtf this became totally stupid in an instant?!
waiting for ep6 before judging, but i don't have high hopes...

why does everyone remember their death's and nobody really cares.. how could someone actually not believe in a witch after so many people got killed and revived omg i'm so disappointed because this was the anime i was most excited about this season....


I'm fine with people accepting the witch and thinking she did it but if you insult the series or belittle it then it makes me want to smack you with spoilers to show how little that you know. Don't act like that you know everything. The real story has just started.
Whoa there...calm yourself.

As for the rest of the thread, I really enjoyed reading ukonkivi's, Zedrane's, etc posts. Thank you for having that discussion without spoilers; it helped me to understand some things and was just fun to read. :)
 
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