| The only real problem I see with it is the series lacking that harem tag even though it is 100% going that route. |
 |
| not all morals are social constructs though we got moral emotions like guilt and shame plus empathy |
deg said: not all morals are social constructs though we got moral emotions like guilt and shame plus empathy Those are evolutionary mistakes in our dna. Just survival instincts gone wrong. |
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Hazzardous2 said: ktg said: But we know that it is wrong even in their culture, because Paul also cheated on his wife and it was considered as a bad thing. Their culture has no issue with it, they make multiple mentions of polygamy families throughout the LN They explained that the followers of the Millis religion do not accept polygamy but it is accepted anywhere else. So just like in our world there are places that allow it and places that do not. |
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rohan121 said: The only real problem I see with it is the series lacking that harem tag even though it is 100% going that route. Now that you mention it, itz true. None of the entries have it. Definitely a war crime |
Reply to Hazzardous2
SimplyBrazen said:
They explained that the followers of the Millis religion do not accept polygamy but it is accepted anywhere else. So just like in our world there are places that allow it and places that do not.
Hazzardous2 said:
Their culture has no issue with it, they make multiple mentions of polygamy families throughout the LN
Their culture has no issue with it, they make multiple mentions of polygamy families throughout the LN
They explained that the followers of the Millis religion do not accept polygamy but it is accepted anywhere else. So just like in our world there are places that allow it and places that do not.
I've read the whole ln so not true, some of the nobles there are polygamists
| @Hazzardous2 Well I'm going off of what was explained in ep 11. |
|
| Innate morality is what keeps societies afloat. If you're just going to start killing or doing very bad stuff because you can, that's messed up. I'm not arguing against you, you're right, it totally depends on the culture. |
ktg said: But we know that it is wrong even in their culture, because Paul also cheated on his wife and it was considered as a bad thing. the rgb collection baby yeaaaaah! |
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| Morality came from God so now please repent and go to confession. |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| of all moral questions available, you just had to pick up polygamy 😭 |
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
| Well, that should be obvious but apparently it isn't for some people, so thanks for pointing it out in this topic. |
No, this isn't my signature~desu. |
ktg said: But we know that it is wrong even in their culture, because Paul also cheated on his wife and it was considered as a bad thing. not it's not wrong in their culture (exactly?) it's only millis religion that forbidden polygamy otherwise it's okay to have multiple wives or concubines also in whole greyrat family only zenith is millis follower, so yeah for zenith it was definately a cheating by paul. but only from zenith pov |
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Reply to removed-user
@Zarutaku But it's bullshit, that is, in some cultures it's natural to make human sacrifices so you're telling me that it's okay to do them just because it's a different culture? There is a substantial difference between morality and madness as in this shitty anime
OroficB06 said: @Zarutaku But it's bullshit, that is, in some cultures it's natural to make human sacrifices so you're telling me that it's okay to do them just because it's a different culture? There is a substantial difference between morality and madness as in this shitty anime Are you seriously trying to make a point by comparing polyamory with superstitious murdering of people? I wonder who is affected by madness here, because it seemingly isn't this anime. |
No, this isn't my signature~desu. |
egosumjkm said: Spoiler (E11) To give it a context morality the things that instinctively say to us that one of the example is “you already have a wife, you shouldn't get another one it's wrong ” it's probably rooted to our culture for example the bible it colonized our belief systems like only having 1 wife is acceptable but don't get me wrong i am never a fan of polygamy or cheating in general but just wanted to say that it is just a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and is not entirely wrong depending to the culture. I'm not justifying it just explaining things. But it is a good thing that we have this thing called a MORALITY because it helps the world in order. without morality or our belief systems doing their job preventing our desires i can imagine how the world will turn upside down lol. Here is a question, if animals in nature are promiscuous, have harems, or mate with the same partner for life, then why would humans make rules like no fornication, one wife, and no cheating / adultery? It does not make logical sense that animals named humans would make up “morality” that purposely restricts and restrains human behavior, so they don’t act like animals. Especially when most humans have the same idea of “morality” and “immorality”, which supports the existence of an overarching morality like the Bible explains, which humans agree with and want to follow. |
Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating.  |
ejleon said: egosumjkm said: Spoiler (E11) To give it a context morality the things that instinctively say to us that one of the example is “you already have a wife, you shouldn't get another one it's wrong ” it's probably rooted to our culture for example the bible it colonized our belief systems like only having 1 wife is acceptable but don't get me wrong i am never a fan of polygamy or cheating in general but just wanted to say that it is just a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and is not entirely wrong depending to the culture. I'm not justifying it just explaining things. But it is a good thing that we have this thing called a MORALITY because it helps the world in order. without morality or our belief systems doing their job preventing our desires i can imagine how the world will turn upside down lol. Here is a question, if animals in nature are promiscuous, have harems, or mate with the same partner for life, then why would humans make rules like no fornication, one wife, and no cheating / adultery? It does not make logical sense that animals named humans would make up “morality” that purposely restricts and restrains human behavior, so they don’t act like animals. Especially when most humans have the same idea of “morality” and “immorality”, which supports the existence of an overarching morality like the Bible explains, which humans agree with and want to follow. Morality is a social construct, though at this point is it grown to be so engraved in us that it's hard to question. Morality is something that was implemented by ruling bodies, such as royalty and religion. The reason for this is that it is easier to rule and control a population who is following a moral codex, by their own violation. They make people follow this moral codex by implementing something that people easily agree with, like murder is wrong, and then between that put what they truly want, like a duty to donate to the church. A great example is nationalism. Where you introduce it as we stand together as a country, we always support each other, we are strongest together. Feelings that impovers social relations, which we humans enjoy as a social species. But what the ruling class get, is a population with extreme loyalty and trust, that they easily can call to war. Not saying morality is wrong though. |
| I was afraid this post was gonna be about the much more reprehensible stuff going on in this series, but thankfully it’s just about the polygamy. There are problems with this subplot, but the fact that it’s supportive of polyamory isn’t one of them, which I guess is the point of the post, so I’ll agree there. |
| Barely catching my breath! Lay my eyes on the crest! Gonna square up to all of the heat that is left! So I carry the torch! To Inferno! Inferno! |
Reply to ktg
But we know that it is wrong even in their culture, because Paul also cheated on his wife and it was considered as a bad thing.
ktg said: But we know that it is wrong even in their culture, because Paul also cheated on his wife and it was considered as a bad thing Zenith is a devotee of Millis, which is why she doesn't accept polygamy very well, but she is prepared for it, since she knew who Paul was. This is better explained in the light novel, in the anime this is the only indication we have.  Zenith is the only one that says a prayer before meals. |
1000-MAT said: ktg said: But we know that it is wrong even in their culture, because Paul also cheated on his wife and it was considered as a bad thing Zenith is a devotee of Millis, which is why she doesn't accept polygamy very well, but she is prepared for it, since she knew who Paul was. This is better explained in the light novel, in the anime this is the only indication we have. Zenith is the only one that says a prayer before meals. Don't repeat the already refuted takes. It doesn't look good. |
ktg said: 1000-MAT said: Zenith is a devotee of Millis, which is why she doesn't accept polygamy very well, but she is prepared for it, since she knew who Paul was. This is better explained in the light novel, in the anime this is the only indication we have. Zenith is the only one that says a prayer before meals. Don't repeat the already refuted takes. It doesn't look good. Sorry, but I won't read all the topics |
Reply to egosumjkm
ejleon said:
Here is a question, if animals in nature are promiscuous, have harems, or mate with the same partner for life, then why would humans make rules like no fornication, one wife, and no cheating / adultery?
It does not make logical sense that animals named humans would make up “morality” that purposely restricts and restrains human behavior, so they don’t act like animals.
Especially when most humans have the same idea of “morality” and “immorality”, which supports the existence of an overarching morality like the Bible explains, which humans agree with and want to follow.
egosumjkm said:
Spoiler (E11)
To give it a context morality the things that instinctively say to us that one of the example is “you already have a wife, you shouldn't get another one it's wrong ” it's probably rooted to our culture for example the bible it colonized our belief systems like only having 1 wife is acceptable but don't get me wrong i am never a fan of polygamy or cheating in general but just wanted to say that it is just a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and is not entirely wrong depending to the culture. I'm not justifying it just explaining things. But it is a good thing that we have this thing called a MORALITY because it helps the world in order. without morality or our belief systems doing their job preventing our desires i can imagine how the world will turn upside down lol.
Spoiler (E11)
To give it a context morality the things that instinctively say to us that one of the example is “you already have a wife, you shouldn't get another one it's wrong ” it's probably rooted to our culture for example the bible it colonized our belief systems like only having 1 wife is acceptable but don't get me wrong i am never a fan of polygamy or cheating in general but just wanted to say that it is just a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and is not entirely wrong depending to the culture. I'm not justifying it just explaining things. But it is a good thing that we have this thing called a MORALITY because it helps the world in order. without morality or our belief systems doing their job preventing our desires i can imagine how the world will turn upside down lol.
Here is a question, if animals in nature are promiscuous, have harems, or mate with the same partner for life, then why would humans make rules like no fornication, one wife, and no cheating / adultery?
It does not make logical sense that animals named humans would make up “morality” that purposely restricts and restrains human behavior, so they don’t act like animals.
Especially when most humans have the same idea of “morality” and “immorality”, which supports the existence of an overarching morality like the Bible explains, which humans agree with and want to follow.
it's because we are rational that's what makes us different from animals
| @egosumjkm But having rationality does not make humans moral beings. History is filled with humans, who had the same ability for rationality as people today, but they still were still immoral beings, some even acted like animals. Rationality alone does not lead to the origin or the concept of morality in humans. |
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
Reply to Flacion
ejleon said:
Here is a question, if animals in nature are promiscuous, have harems, or mate with the same partner for life, then why would humans make rules like no fornication, one wife, and no cheating / adultery?
It does not make logical sense that animals named humans would make up “morality” that purposely restricts and restrains human behavior, so they don’t act like animals.
Especially when most humans have the same idea of “morality” and “immorality”, which supports the existence of an overarching morality like the Bible explains, which humans agree with and want to follow.
egosumjkm said:
Spoiler (E11)
To give it a context morality the things that instinctively say to us that one of the example is “you already have a wife, you shouldn't get another one it's wrong ” it's probably rooted to our culture for example the bible it colonized our belief systems like only having 1 wife is acceptable but don't get me wrong i am never a fan of polygamy or cheating in general but just wanted to say that it is just a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and is not entirely wrong depending to the culture. I'm not justifying it just explaining things. But it is a good thing that we have this thing called a MORALITY because it helps the world in order. without morality or our belief systems doing their job preventing our desires i can imagine how the world will turn upside down lol.
Spoiler (E11)
To give it a context morality the things that instinctively say to us that one of the example is “you already have a wife, you shouldn't get another one it's wrong ” it's probably rooted to our culture for example the bible it colonized our belief systems like only having 1 wife is acceptable but don't get me wrong i am never a fan of polygamy or cheating in general but just wanted to say that it is just a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and is not entirely wrong depending to the culture. I'm not justifying it just explaining things. But it is a good thing that we have this thing called a MORALITY because it helps the world in order. without morality or our belief systems doing their job preventing our desires i can imagine how the world will turn upside down lol.
Here is a question, if animals in nature are promiscuous, have harems, or mate with the same partner for life, then why would humans make rules like no fornication, one wife, and no cheating / adultery?
It does not make logical sense that animals named humans would make up “morality” that purposely restricts and restrains human behavior, so they don’t act like animals.
Especially when most humans have the same idea of “morality” and “immorality”, which supports the existence of an overarching morality like the Bible explains, which humans agree with and want to follow.
Morality is a social construct, though at this point is it grown to be so engraved in us that it's hard to question.
Morality is something that was implemented by ruling bodies, such as royalty and religion. The reason for this is that it is easier to rule and control a population who is following a moral codex, by their own violation. They make people follow this moral codex by implementing something that people easily agree with, like murder is wrong, and then between that put what they truly want, like a duty to donate to the church.
A great example is nationalism. Where you introduce it as we stand together as a country, we always support each other, we are strongest together. Feelings that impovers social relations, which we humans enjoy as a social species. But what the ruling class get, is a population with extreme loyalty and trust, that they easily can call to war.
Not saying morality is wrong though.
| @Flacion You are assuming the concept of morality did not exist before royalty and religions, but there is no evidence to support that claim. And humans don’t need morality, royalty, or religion to control other humans. |
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
Reply to ejleon
@Flacion You are assuming the concept of morality did not exist before royalty and religions, but there is no evidence to support that claim.
And humans don’t need morality, royalty, or religion to control other humans.
And humans don’t need morality, royalty, or religion to control other humans.
| @ejleon You are right i didn't provide any sources as evidence for my claims, but would like to point out that neither did you in your original statement. But i will gladly now come with a more indepth look at my opinion with sources. So my claim is that our moral is a construct from our cultural development, though with this would i like to point out that some traits that is now included in modern moral is originally natural traits. Some examples for this is murder and hurting other people in your flock is wrong, since we are original a very social species. This is because it gives an adventages situation to have people support you and disadvanteges if your in a weak flock [1]. An example we can take on something being a social construct is how western societies are mostly monogamous, a proof on this not being nessecarily a natural for us that only 186 out of 1231 was truly monogamous [2]. Also the whole idea about when something is cheating is also very different, for example most people in western contries would say being married and having sex with a protitude is cheating. But if you look at Japan for example is that not the case, where most women find it okay that their husband is with a protitude [3]. We can also go back to killing someone else, which is generally seen as morally wrong, but if we look at a situation such as the crusades. Here it was seen as a duty for a christian to kill muslims and even seen as a good deed, where other sins were forgiven if you went to try and retake the holy land [4]. With all of this do i hope to have shown how much of our morality is a construct from our society, that is ever changing and therefor always affect our moral codex. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-origins-of-human-morality/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogamy [3] https://nypost.com/2023/09/20/japans-perspective-on-whether-sex-work-is-cheating/ [4] https://www.theosu.ca/theos-resource/crusades-justification-arguments |
Reply to Flacion
@ejleon
You are right i didn't provide any sources as evidence for my claims, but would like to point out that neither did you in your original statement. But i will gladly now come with a more indepth look at my opinion with sources.
So my claim is that our moral is a construct from our cultural development, though with this would i like to point out that some traits that is now included in modern moral is originally natural traits. Some examples for this is murder and hurting other people in your flock is wrong, since we are original a very social species. This is because it gives an adventages situation to have people support you and disadvanteges if your in a weak flock [1].
An example we can take on something being a social construct is how western societies are mostly monogamous, a proof on this not being nessecarily a natural for us that only 186 out of 1231 was truly monogamous [2]. Also the whole idea about when something is cheating is also very different, for example most people in western contries would say being married and having sex with a protitude is cheating. But if you look at Japan for example is that not the case, where most women find it okay that their husband is with a protitude [3].
We can also go back to killing someone else, which is generally seen as morally wrong, but if we look at a situation such as the crusades. Here it was seen as a duty for a christian to kill muslims and even seen as a good deed, where other sins were forgiven if you went to try and retake the holy land [4].
With all of this do i hope to have shown how much of our morality is a construct from our society, that is ever changing and therefor always affect our moral codex.
[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-origins-of-human-morality/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogamy
[3] https://nypost.com/2023/09/20/japans-perspective-on-whether-sex-work-is-cheating/
[4] https://www.theosu.ca/theos-resource/crusades-justification-arguments
You are right i didn't provide any sources as evidence for my claims, but would like to point out that neither did you in your original statement. But i will gladly now come with a more indepth look at my opinion with sources.
So my claim is that our moral is a construct from our cultural development, though with this would i like to point out that some traits that is now included in modern moral is originally natural traits. Some examples for this is murder and hurting other people in your flock is wrong, since we are original a very social species. This is because it gives an adventages situation to have people support you and disadvanteges if your in a weak flock [1].
An example we can take on something being a social construct is how western societies are mostly monogamous, a proof on this not being nessecarily a natural for us that only 186 out of 1231 was truly monogamous [2]. Also the whole idea about when something is cheating is also very different, for example most people in western contries would say being married and having sex with a protitude is cheating. But if you look at Japan for example is that not the case, where most women find it okay that their husband is with a protitude [3].
We can also go back to killing someone else, which is generally seen as morally wrong, but if we look at a situation such as the crusades. Here it was seen as a duty for a christian to kill muslims and even seen as a good deed, where other sins were forgiven if you went to try and retake the holy land [4].
With all of this do i hope to have shown how much of our morality is a construct from our society, that is ever changing and therefor always affect our moral codex.
[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-origins-of-human-morality/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogamy
[3] https://nypost.com/2023/09/20/japans-perspective-on-whether-sex-work-is-cheating/
[4] https://www.theosu.ca/theos-resource/crusades-justification-arguments
| @Flacion I was more trying to point out that morality, religion, leadership are not independent of each other, assuming one lead to another does not follow the evidence we have in history. You haven't proven that it is a social construct, you are using circular reasoning. It existed in societies, so societies must have made it up to control, but that doesn't answer the origin of such a concept in the first place, especially when history reveals that humans just did whatever was ok in their own eyes. You are assuming societies considered "murder" to be immoral, but historically that is incorrect, even today, there are societies that muder others and think that they are doing a good thing. There were societies where murder was seen as good, like for human sacrifice, or cannibalism, or to show a person's strength in battle, while there were other societies that did not allow it seeing it as bad. But that only proves that deciding what is wrong or right is completely up to each human or group, which changes over time. What I am asking is why humans would ever think "murder" is bad in the first place, when animals in the wild murder all the time, meaning why would morality develop when there is no basis for it in nature. |
ejleonJun 28, 6:27 PM
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
Reply to Flacion
@ejleon
ah I see, sorry then, I understood what you wrote as you inferring that morality was a complete natural thing and was always as it was.
But what you are referring to is, why humanity found the need to develop morality, unlike other species, correct?
ah I see, sorry then, I understood what you wrote as you inferring that morality was a complete natural thing and was always as it was.
But what you are referring to is, why humanity found the need to develop morality, unlike other species, correct?
| @Flacion Exactly, glad to be on the same page now. |
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
| @ejleon Alright then, if we work from that, I think I can make an educated guess. So originally we were a flock of animals, which were weaker and slower then other animals. Where our traits was that we learned to use tools, we were smart, and had a fairly high endurance. Based on that we had to work together to hunt, and it would be more optimal to work together with people in good condition. This would result in you wanting to help the people around you, so they would be healthy and uninjured so they could help you. This would probably count as a basis for the morality in wanting other people to be happy. I can then imagine as we grew from hunters to farmers and a flock to a tribe. Did more complicated situation arise which would then lead to new standards and thereby new morale to evolve. How does that sound? |
Flacion said: @ejleon Alright then, if we work from that, I think I can make an educated guess. So originally we were a flock of animals, which were weaker and slower then other animals. Where our traits was that we learned to use tools, we were smart, and had a fairly high endurance. Based on that we had to work together to hunt, and it would be more optimal to work together with people in good condition. This would result in you wanting to help the people around you, so they would be healthy and uninjured so they could help you. This would probably count as a basis for the morality in wanting other people to be happy. I can then imagine as we grew from hunters to farmers and a flock to a tribe. Did more complicated situation arise which would then lead to new standards and thereby new morale to evolve. How does that sound? Thank you for trying to reason this out. However, a Wolfpack would do this, to support the group? It doesn’t seem like morality would develop just from wanting to help another animal hunting with you. |
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
rohan121 said: The only real problem I see with it is the series lacking that harem tag even though it is 100% going that route. Harem anime are about having a selection of multiple haremettes (usually five) that the protagonist can choose from, but usually doesn't. This anime doesn't do that type of stuff. He just ends up marrying multiple girls. |
Reply to TransferUser
rohan121 said:
The only real problem I see with it is the series lacking that harem tag even though it is 100% going that route.
The only real problem I see with it is the series lacking that harem tag even though it is 100% going that route.
Harem anime are about having a selection of multiple haremettes (usually five) that the protagonist can choose from, but usually doesn't.
This anime doesn't do that type of stuff. He just ends up marrying multiple girls.
| @TransferUser In japanese websites even the ln is tagged harem for mushoku. Many true harem anime exist with harem tag like Highschool dxd and isekai smartphone. True harems should obviously include harem tag. |
|
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