Vinland Saga Episode 19 Discussion

Stygian_Prisoner said:
I love how the manga readers were hyping the shit out of Thorfinn vs Thorkell II, but when it turns out that the battle wasn't nearly as good as they proclaimed it would be, they're quick to back-pedal into "oh, but Vinland Saga isn't about the fights, tho. The plot and characters are what really matter, not the bad animation. Go back to KnY if all you want is cool fights, shounen-fag!"
Fan-boyism at its finest.

I guess fuck my shallow ass for expecting great animation from WIT after their masterful handling of AoT, right?

So apparently Canute, a prissy royal boy who's never even picked up a blade in his life, now magically seems to have gained a mind-set/resolve/fearlessness on the same level as Thors, one of the greatest warriors of all time, and can now look at Thorkell straight in the eye without flinching; a man who can make hardened warriors shit themselves with his murderous presence alone. Fuck. Off.

Stygian_Prisoner said:
@hamza121419

Tell you what. Why don't you go ahead and take some time to edit your little essay? Break up your points into neat paragraphs, maybe even clean up some of your punctuation a bit while you're at it.

That way i don't have to waste my time straining my already-bad eyesight on your unreadable wall of text.

Only then will i consider your argument and give you a proper response.

hamza121419 said:
some people when they dont have the ability to argue with what others said, they try to attack the form of the message, This is just showing your low level of argumentation, i was right when i said in that 'wall of text' that you are seeing things from the surface level, and i feel sorry for myself for commenting on what a narrow minded like you has writen about a show that isnt meant for beings as retarded as you

Stygian_Prisoner said:


I'm not dismissing or avoiding your argument, though. I told you that i was willing to discuss this further if you could present your points in a more organized manner because, trust me, nobody likes reading long uninterrupted walls of text. That shit can give headaches and if you went to a decent college, they would have taught you that. I think your refusal to clean up your messy writing speaks more about your own lazyness, rather than mine for being unwilling to decipher it.

Funny thing is, i don't even hate this show. I just see some glaring issues with it that prevent me from enjoying it more and i hate how some fanboys are deflecting criticism with their "2deep4u" hypocrisy.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now. Ironically, despite accusing me of avoiding argumentation by attacking the form of your message, you then go on to call me a "narrow-minded retard". A completely uncalled for ad hominem, since i never insulted you personally. Just goes to show your level of "mature argumentation".

Thanks for dragging yourself through the mud and letting me know that i need not stoop down and waste my time arguing with a being as condescending and pretentious as you, after all.

Stygian_Prisoner said:


I'm not dismissing or avoiding your argument, though. I told you that i was willing to discuss this further if you could present your points in a more organized manner because, trust me, nobody likes reading long uninterrupted walls of text. That shit can give headaches and if you went to a decent college, they would have taught you that. I think your refusal to clean up your messy writing speaks more about your own lazyness, rather than mine for being unwilling to decipher it.

Funny thing is, i don't even hate this show. I just see some glaring issues with it that prevent me from enjoying it more and i hate how some fanboys are deflecting criticism with their "2deep4u" hypocrisy.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now. Ironically, despite accusing me of avoiding argumentation by attacking the form of your message, you then go on to call me a "narrow-minded retard". A completely uncalled for ad hominem, since i never insulted you personally. Just goes to show your level of "mature argumentation".

Thanks for dragging yourself through the mud and letting me know that i need not stoop down and waste my time arguing with a being as condescending and pretentious as you, after all.

hamza121419 said:
i dont know who are these manga readers you were listening to, but surly you were listening to wrong people, cause a true manga reader will never hype up the thorfin vs torkell 2 fight, as it was obvious from a long time that vinland saga isnt about fights.

hamza121419 said:
There already were situations were the fighting could happen and they resolve the shit with just talking, but it seems you just want to shit on the anime without any good reasons.

hamza121419 said:
And you attacking the animation is stupid, yeah i know there were highs and lows, but overall it was great, i dont know why would you expect AOT animation level as the fighting in AOT is way different than the few scenes of action in vinland. But even these few scenes were handled very well, have you forgoten forgot thors vs askelad duel, thorfin vs torkel in london, ep 17 is the only one with animation issues, but that wasnt a big deal when you look at the progression of the story. And animation isnt the only thing the studio is doing, have you forgoten the amazing backgrouds that wit has been consistently drawing, with all the details that you rarely find in a tv series, have you forgoten that the details in the faces and all the drawing details of the manga has been put in almost every scene.

hamza121419 said:
I cant understand why are you complaining cause it seems you dont know what are you talking about. And about canute character developement, it seems you keep missing the point of the show and you didnt understand what is really going on, his transformation was already forshadowed by a lot of hints, his transformation is psychological abd mental not physical, he is still the weakest one physicly, he gained resolve through a change in his subconsciousness, what is the meaning of ragnar's dream then, he was already ready to change and the priest only pushed him with his philosophycal words. Canute has always been inteligent, how did he survive in the royal court otherwise, he prefered the life with ragnar and wasnt intrested in the being a prince, he never wanted to be born like that, he was pretending to be shy just to avoid problems, we already saw him shout on the priest and we already saw him talking normaly with thorfin while cooking. It seems you dont pay attention to the details that were forshadoing the real personality of canute. This man has grown in the royal court, he knows what is it to be king, he has the blood of king sweyn in his veins, he just didnt want to act like because he had no motive to do that, he was learning and practising cristianity as he found in it a world of peace that goes with his life with ragnar, but when he lost every thing, when he realized that he can never attein the most important thing that is love, he began his rebellion against god, he now has to act like a king as he want to create a paradise in earth, he now has a clear objectif and has already inside him what he need to do that. The change was about how he viewed the world, and when you change your view about the world you change your bahaviour, but canute already knew how to act, he didnt just power up as you are thinking.

hamza121419 said:
It seems to me that you are not giving this show the amount of time and reflexion it deserves, as it's so deep and meaningful, you keep talking about things in the surface level and never try to analyse what the writer is trying to convey throught this piece of art. Vinland saga is a tale about love and being a true warrior, about peace and salvation, about violence and revenge, about slavery and despair, it was never about fights and action, you should open your eyes and analyse what is given to you, instead of complaining without even knowing what is happening.

Stygian_Prisoner said:
@hamza121419 Fine. admittedly, i was unnecessarily snarky in my first reply, i accept that and i apologize if i offended you. I still don't see how that warrants name-calling, but i'll just let it slide now so we can move past the pettiness.

Anyway, since you actually listened to me about the paragraph breaks in your latest reply, then as a show of good faith, i'll indulge you for once and read your initial argument. It's gonna be a pain in the ass, but i'll live:


You can go back to the Ep. 17 discussion and you'll find plenty of examples of those people in there. I don't think non-manga readers would have had any reason to hype up the fight, since they had no way of knowing how events would play out.


I kinda mentioned this already, but i'm not shitting on the anime as a whole; i've even enjoyed quite a few of the calmer Eps. There's just a few glaring issues i have with it, like Thorfinn's and Canute's character and some sloppy visuals in these latest episodes.


I didn't say the whole anime had bad animation, and i'm not criticizing the backgrounds (yes, they're beautiful) or the still shots either, so i don't know why you're bringing those up. Yes, those battle scenes you mentioned were great and i appreciate them. I've even been forgiving of sub-par animation for minor battles, like the one in Ep. 7.

However, i'm baffled that Wit hasn't brought that same animation quality for these last few pivotal episodes. If VS is much less action-centric than AoT, why is it so unreasonable to expect Wit to go all-out for these few crucial battles after so much build-up? It just pisses me off that if you dare complain about it, you get branded as an action-junkie shounenfag by people in this thread. It's condescending deflection.


I never claimed that Canute "powered up" physically though, i know that he still lacks combat skills. I just said that Canute seemed to gain his mind-set, resolve and fearlessness, which are on par with Thors' (as noted by Thorkell himself), out of thin air. It's not that i have a problem with Canute awakening to a new worldview, it's that his personality completely changes from one minute to the next along with it.

True, we do seem him lash out and speak up a few times, but never do they show him having any practical field/leadership skills before this point.
Any way you look at it, it's a jarring change to go from literally hiding behind your father figure when Thorfinn flashes you a nasty look, to staring a feared warrior like Thorkell in the eye in just the span of a few days. So if he really was faking his shy, cowardly persona all along and this "new" Canute was always the real one, then i feel that the author should have done a better job of clarifying that, because it certainly doesn't feel that way.
If his transition had been handled a lot more gradually, or if we had at least gotten a flashback episode dedicated to showing how Canute's life was like in the castle while growing up, i honestly wouldn't be hating on it.

Anyway, I disagree with his newfound philosophy of "universal love" and that's fine; i don't need to agree with a character's worldview in order to understand his reasons/motives. But the fact that he was inspired by his drunkard priest is pretty laughable.



All i can say is, like most people in Ep. discussions, i'm just posting my initial impressions here. Obviously,my mind is not infallible; my opinion on the show is always liable to change as i go along until i finish it. I used to dislike Berserk's slow-burn Golden Age arc until i figured out what the author was going for, and it's now one of my favorites. In the end, i might change my mind on VS, or i might not; that's just how it is.

hamza121419 said:
i've created a topic about canute's character developement, you can check it out if you want to see my complete breakdown.
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1844034&show=0#post1

Scordolo said:
Thorfinn and Thorkell's battle was underwhelming. Not because of lack of action but because he was so out of character. The battle just wasn't fair at all. Thorfinn isn't that kind of guy who uses Cheat codes to defeat someone in a battle. All he wants is a fair fight. The scene where he didn't kill Askelaad when he was sleeping, it literally proved he won't cheat at all but somehow he had a change of mind all of a sudden? Wtf?
Also, when Throkell asked what it means to be a true warrior, all Thorfinn had to say was, "A true warrior doesn't need a sword" I was itching him to say that.

Scordolo said:
Thorfinn and Thorkell's battle was underwhelming. Not because of lack of action but because he was so out of character. The battle just wasn't fair at all. Thorfinn isn't that kind of guy who uses Cheat codes to defeat someone in a battle. All he wants is a fair fight. The scene where he didn't kill Askelaad when he was sleeping, it literally proved he won't cheat at all but somehow he had a change of mind all of a sudden? Wtf?
Also, when Throkell asked what it means to be a true warrior, all Thorfinn had to say was, "A true warrior doesn't need a sword" I was itching him to say that.

FMmatron said:


Thorfinn wants to take revenge on Askeladd in a fair fight, but that doesn't apply Thorkell, he doesn't care about him. So it's not out of character when the circumstances are different.

hamza121419 said:
thorfin didn't cheat, using tricks in a fight isn't cheating, the battle was fair, thorkell didn't mind letting Askellad interfere so there wasn't a transgression of rules, the proof is that thorkell admited his defeat, he who is a proud viking warrior, if thorfin's win wasn't fair thorkel wouldn't have accepted it.

Thorfin saying "a true warrior doesn't need a sword" at this moment will be nonsensical because he doesn't understand what those words means yet, he truly didn't have any answers to thorkel's question because he has never thought of it, all he has been thinking of is getting his revenge and nothing more. Saying those words means he already went through a lot of thematic development which he hasn't yet achieved at a this point.

hamza121419 said:
thorfin didn't cheat, using tricks in a fight isn't cheating, the battle was fair, thorkell didn't mind letting Askellad interfere so there wasn't a transgression of rules, the proof is that thorkell admited his defeat, he who is a proud viking warrior, if thorfin's win wasn't fair thorkel wouldn't have accepted it.

Scordolo said:
Thorfinn and Thorkell's battle was underwhelming. Not because of lack of action but because he was so out of character. The battle just wasn't fair at all. Thorfinn isn't that kind of guy who uses Cheat codes to defeat someone in a battle. All he wants is a fair fight. The scene where he didn't kill Askelaad when he was sleeping, it literally proved he won't cheat at all but somehow he had a change of mind all of a sudden? Wtf?
Also, when Throkell asked what it means to be a true warrior, all Thorfinn had to say was, "A true warrior doesn't need a sword" I was itching him to say that.

yarwe said:
canute got that many followers easily what