| Episode 17. Not going to add much from your reviews of this episode, although agree with you both @whiteflame55 @inim, 5 years is a long time to be an absent father and it seems like lazy writing (half a decade is a long time, maybe a couple of years might have been more realistic for Tomoya to get over Nagisa's death but then Ushio would have still been a toddler and not had much presence or agency of choice to act and so not as lively a character as she is at age 5). Tomoya doesn't even mention Ushio or her care in his "I'm depressed" opening monologue where we see how far he's fallen after Nagisa's passing. Kind of surprised he didn't hold onto Ushio as the last remnant of Nagisa, something still binding him to her memory. Also in terms of the writing, 5 years old is a good age to have a child be able to interact with someone without needing almost constant looking after (ie they can go toilet rather than nappies, they eat same food adults do, they can talk etc) so maybe that's why the writers decided on a 5 year time skip. Has Tomoya not even seen Ushio for 5 years or attended her birthdays etc, that would be pretty shitty of him. Noticed Tomoya started smoking and even smokes in the house with Ushio present. It's like he's turning into a version of Akio. I found the 2nd half of this episode a lot more emotionally moving than the previous one. Can't believe how much of a dick Tomoya is to Ushio, as you both pointed out not praising her for her toilet training, or adapting his cooking to a child's requirements, smoking in front of her and not playing with her. Then again I have 5 cousins, nephews and nieces all 5 y/o (plus baby Aria) and under so I've become a lot more conversant on looking after kids, maybe a 25 y/o me would have fared as bad as Tomoya looking after a 5 y/o, although i wouldn't have been so gruff. @inim thanks for the reminder on Usagi Drop and Barakamon, i also like well depicted adult-children relationships (Hinamasuri the only one I can think of off top of my head, also Kotaro Lives Alone but he isn't a normal child) so will pick one of these up next as was looking for next show anyway. |
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23feanor said: The four shows I've picked on top of the "child care / parent child" filter had two implicit ones: "no supernatural" and "no highly unusual situations / roles". I.e. they all depict more or less realistic lifes of normal people. My favorite parent-child drama in anime clearly is Wolf Children (2012). It has highly realistic children too, but those kids are werewolfs as well. Even with this the depiction is extremely realistic and if this is allowed, I'd instantly add it to my list. I've excluded Hinamatsuri (2018) because it has both "unusual situation" (kid does mafia work) and supernatural elements + slapstick comedy.thanks for the reminder on Usagi Drop and Barakamon, i also like well depicted adult-children relationships (Hinamasuri the only one I can think of off top of my head, also Kotaro Lives Alone but he isn't a normal child) so will pick one of these up next as was looking for next show anyway. This "hard realism" is something I really love in anime. We've had a similar discussion about Strawberry Marshmallow (2005), which I love and you had mixed feelings about. It's not super-realistic in that MC girl is snarky and a Cartman type, but I hope you agree everything else is normal to the point of boring. Speaking of which, the most extreme show of this type is Shouwa Monogatari (2011) and the war movies Who's Left Behind? (1991) and In This Corner of the World (2016). Shouwa Monogatari for example is as boring as it gets in terms of story. The ordinary life of a lower middle class family (grandma, hard working dad, housewife mom, teenage daughter and younger brother) in early 1960s Japan. I can literally see the ~70 year old target audience sitting in front of the TV in their pension homes with watery eyes saying "yes, I remember this well". Realism probably won't get more hard core than in that one. W/r to childcare themed realism, Wolf Children and Usagi Drop both are 9/10s for me. Maybe the realism bug bites, and they are a good start. |
inimSep 11, 2022 6:25 AM
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| @inim Wolf Children already on my ptw movie list, I've heard it gets pretty sad at points but a great movie. I've got so many good anime movies to get through, I try to pick up a movie every weekend, yday was Space Pirate Harlock 2013, cgi looked amazing, although cgi lends itself well to space settings, but materials (how light reflects off different substances in different ways), shading, explosions, hair movement, skin tone, action, all was perfect, easily as good as Avatar film i think. Hard realism is a strange one for me, i do really appreciate realistic depictions in anime (human relationships in Hibike Euphonium is a good example), but not all types of shows. After watching Akeba Sailor Uniform and Strawberry Marshmallow I've come to the conclusion I prefer my cgdct shows to be less realistic, I watch them for easy-to-watch escapism with little to no ability to self insert (ie no male-female romance or situations I've experienced/observed) so they are pure fun light entertainment for me. Strawberry Marshmallow I found too realistic and boring at times (I wouldn't call it a boring show though, there was lots of good moments, but my favourite character was the older sister by far), whilst Akebi made me feel like I was watching actual intimate moments from behind a bush at an all girls school. |
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| @inim just watched the first episode of Bunny Drop and it's both realistic and had me really choked up. The depiction of the two kids at the funeral, Reina and Rin is spot on. I remember the last funeral I went to, one kid was very subdued and seemed to read the atmosphere of the occasion and another was completely oblivious to the adults around and ranted and complained the whole time. The blue flower on grandpas coffin was heart breaking. Great visuals and OST, I'm going to love this show. |
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| @inim appreciate all the recs based on the last episode. I did like Kakushigoto and loved Wolf Children, so I'll have to add the rest to my ptw. Episode 18 These episodes have quickly become my favorite part of the series so far. The contrivances are falling away and all that's left is a deeply broken man and his one reason to keep going on. That 5 year period really stuck with me because I have to believe that his friends showed up and tried to help him during that time, but he could not bring himself to break out of his malaise, even if they offered some brief respite. Tomoya and Ushio's travels bring them to the countryside, which just so happens to be the home of Tomoya's estranged grandmother Shino (not a coincidence, as Sanae clearly planned this). The meeting between them offers a more direct connection between his and his father's story, as we find out about the many trials and travails of his father after his mother's death. Tomoya learns how much Naoyuki sacrificed to raise him. Shino shines a light on this to try to explain why Naoyuki became a drunkard and violent towards Tomoya. Tomoya even appears to forgive Naoyuki by the end of their conversation. Honestly... I found this rather frustrating. Tomoya has held onto these frustrations since the very first episode of S1, and having his feelings soften this much (I suppose it remains to be seen how he'll treat his father when they return) after learning of the good Naoyuki did for him that he just plum forgot doesn't really work for me. His anger towards his father was ingrained, far too primal to be defeated this easily. They were also at least partially justified and, while Shino doesn't say he's blameless, she does paper over the violence he committed towards his son. I'm hopeful that there's more to working this out and I suspect there will be, but this part of the resolution doesn't work for me. Before we get to that revelation, though, Tomoya goes on a train ride with Ushio where he once again lets his frustration get the better of him as he snaps at a child around Ushio's age. This causes Ushio to retreat to the lavatory, which is the one place Sanae apparently told her she could cry (a strange choice that may be linked to Sanae's own mourning). Tomoya encourages her to show her emotions, which is ironic as he has been hiding his own. At a stop and by way of apology for his previous outburst, Tomoya offers to buy her a toy, suggesting a handheld robot. Apparently, this is more commonly a boy's toy, but she quickly takes to it, proceeding to lose it in a field later in the episode. Tomoya reverts a bit to his previous frustrations in response, telling her that she just has to give it up and that he'll get her a new one. It becomes apparent, though, that her attachment to this specific toy was because it came from him. This is the first moment when we see true affection from him for his daughter, after which we see a change in his demeanor (far more understanding of her feelings) and a willingness to tell her a bit about Nagisa. The telling of it causes Tomoya to break down in tears, an open show of his emotions like what he encourages from her. Anyway, I don't like everything about this episode, but everything between Tomoya and Ushio really works for me. Their relationship is the centerpiece of this final arc for the series, and rightly so, as it builds so well on Tomoya's character. |
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| Episode 18. Agree wholeheartedly @whiteflame55, the past few eps have elevated my interest in and opinion of this show, from the pregnancy worries to Tomoya's interactions with Ushio. I'm guessing the lost robot toy is the garbage doll that we see in the other world, making the lonely girl Ushio. I had a different take on the revelations Tomoya heard from his grandmother about his dad. Personally I've found that the biggest realisations about how other people have acted towards me have come when I've experienced what they went through myself and then gone to myself "oh, that's why they did that or said that". Like the old saying "you can't understand someone until you walk a mile in their shoes". It may not excuse Tomoya's dads violence but gives Tomoya the framework to understand why his dad acted that way, mainly the loss and grief of his wife and hardship looking after Tomoya. Now Tomoya is in a similar position and can see how his own dad slid into negative patterns of behaviour like violence and alcohol, as he can see the same things in himself, neglecting Ushio and gambling/drinking etc. The scene in the sunflower meadow when Tomoya and Ushio cry got me and then when Tomoya talks about Nagisa on the train. It wasn't overly melodramatic, just touching. Some nice feels with lovely visuals. I'm glad Tomoya has adjusted his behaviour towards Ushio as he was acting like a stroppy teenager and taking out his frustration on Ushio. I always thought Tomoya was a fairly considerate person, but even if you're suffering, a young child shouldn't be your emotional punching bag. Hope he starts making it up to Ushio. Good episode. |
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23feanor said: I had a different take on the revelations Tomoya heard from his grandmother about his dad. Personally I've found that the biggest realisations about how other people have acted towards me have come when I've experienced what they went through myself and then gone to myself "oh, that's why they did that or said that". Like the old saying "you can't understand someone until you walk a mile in their shoes". It may not excuse Tomoya's dads violence but gives Tomoya the framework to understand why his dad acted that way, mainly the loss and grief of his wife and hardship looking after Tomoya. Now Tomoya is in a similar position and can see how his own dad slid into negative patterns of behaviour like violence and alcohol, as he can see the same things in himself, neglecting Ushio and gambling/drinking etc. I understand that perspective, particularly as it allows Tomoya to empathize with his father, though I suppose it just doesn't work as well for me. Feels like a long-running issue like this that actively brings out the worst in Tomoya would have a more direct resolution. Instead, we have to hear it from a character we hadn't met up until now who, admittedly, would be an authority on the subject. I know the more direct interaction with his father was yet to come in this episode, but it was a seismic mental shift for Tomoya and it felt a little unearned. Also, the insight about the garbage doll and the robot being one in the same is a good one. Episode 19 We get to spend more time with Akio and Sanae, with the former once again challenging Tomoya to hit his pitch and this time Tomoya absolutely smashes it... straight into a window. It shows his mental progress up to this point that he's not struggling at this stage, that he doesn't have anything he needs to prove because he's committed to his path now. It's unclear how Akio emotionally reacted to his daughter's death (though I would not be surprised if he was pretty emotional, as he doesn't appear to have the same pent up sadness that Sanae has), but Sanae has bottled it up. As I mentioned in the last episode summary, her instruction for Ushio to only cry in the bathroom and with her father likely stemmed from her own need to keep it together. We get a "you can finally let it go" moment, which is a bit tropey, but given her upbeat character and what she has clearly been through over the last 5 years (not to mention the reality that her main distraction from her sadness will not be around 24-7 any longer), it makes sense. It also makes sense as a parallel to Tomoya's father's experience in this episode, but I'm getting ahead of myself. Tomoya leaves with Ushio to make a go at raising her on his own now that he is dedicated to the cause. And it really shows in more subtle changes to his behavior, though I wish it was more show than tell, e.g. Tomoya didn't have to mentally exposit that he would have previously gotten mad about the women talking badly of his family behind his back and approaches them instead in a more friendly and open manner. Still, it works to show how much he has progressed. There's a brief interlude where they run into Fuko and her sister, the former finally out of her coma and behaving just as she was when she manifested herself on school grounds, though she appears to have no memory of that. It's cute, though I'll admit that I tired of her as a character in S1. Then we get around to his meeting with his father. He still hesitates outside, his father's home almost appearing abandoned from the outside with mail stuffed haphazardly in his mailbox and around his door. At first, his father doesn't even recognize that he has arrived. He's in the throes of his gambling addiction, listening to a horse race on the radio. Tomoya turns it off, drawing his attention before sitting down and looking at him, the only time I can recall him directly confronting his father without prison glass separating them. Any sense of anger towards his father has washed away (again, don't really like this happened prior to this scene, since he has essentially reconciled his feelings with regards to his father entirely in the latter's absence), replaced by a desire to unburden him of the duty he took to raise Tomoya. Tomoya continues to make clear in this scene that he doesn't see much value in himself (a trait that he and his father share) and remarks later about his concern that his father had no joy in raising him, a statement belied by a light orb floating out of the sky and going into his chest, something only his daughter can see. The rest of the scene with his father plays out almost robotically for his father, with him asking whether he was really done. Something in Tomoya's response tells him that he is well and truly done, but we get little in the way of emotional catharsis out of that revelation. There's an appreciative smile, Tomoya cleans him up (literally washing his back) and sends him on his way, with his father never looking back, likely the last time they will see each other. Meanwhile, Tomoya is in tears at one point, regretting his spiteful role in his father's life and his prior lack of gratitude. Perhaps Naoyuki's response can be chalked up to his utter exhaustion after so many years of carrying this burden, perhaps it has more to do with him emotionally walling himself off from the pain of his wife's death and his son's prior reproaches, making it difficult for him to truly absorb what was going on. Like I said earlier, I appreciate the parallels with Sanae, another person with a self-imposed burden that she had to let go, but the differences here are stark as well. Another good episode. |
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| Episode 19. Tomoya seems like a different person to the last couple of episodes. The song that was playing during the opening scene sounded lovely, sung in English, but the sentences made absolutely no sense at all. So Sanae is finally able to cry. Quite surprised Tomoya leaves Ushio home alone at her age (5 or 6), not sure that's legal here in the UK. The meeting between Tomoya and his dad was pretty sweet. The dad felt like his job of looking after Tomoya, or being around in that town, wasn't finished, just in case Tomoya needed him, but on hearing Tomoya speak he realises his boy is all grown up and he can look after himself. There's a reoccurring theme in anime about sacrificing yourself for your children, it's mentioned a lot in Usagi Drop as well. Basically the idea that children take time away from you and your pursuit of happiness, whether that be a career (in anime it's often the career that suffers), a relationship, a hobby. I haven't really heard the same sentiment in UK/European/US shows (or more accurately to the same extent), children are often viewed as a blessing and something to be cherished, rather than viewed as what they take away from the parents lives. Of course being a single parent, either Japan or any other country and working to raise a child is a big deal and must be all kinds of hell at times. Tomoya's dad is almost an advert for not raising a child alone, raising Tomoya basically destroyed him (along with the loss of his wife, but that was a long time ago now, he could've remarried) and now he is a hollow shell of the man he was, not really a great advert for doing the right thing here. Or maybe a reflection of the crushing expectations placed on the Japanese work force and how it destroys people and families. OST seemed especially moving in this episode. Also mention of a miracle, Fuuko finally waking up. Are we going to see the same opportunity for a miracle offered to Tomoya. The end scene of the OP shows Nagisa in a field of sunflowers, I'm guessing the same one that Tomoya and Ushio visited where Ushio lost the robot toy (aka garbage doll), so I wonder if that's a hint. Looks like Ushio has inherited her dads ability to see the light orbs. |
23feanorSep 13, 2022 3:09 AM
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| Episode 18-19 Tomoya's great redemption arc, where he comes to terms with his dad, Ushio, Nagisa's parents and even his grandmother. There are rivers of tears shed by pretty much every person in every scene. It's like spring has come to Tomoya's life in the form of Ushio and years of standstill are over for everybody involved with him. The trip started in episode 17 leads to the countryside, where Tomoya meets his paternal grandmother and learns his own dad did sacrifices for him not unlike what he now does for Ushio. Tomoya's dad's wife also died young. On the road he buys a toy robot for Ushio, which she loses in a field. She searches for the toy tirelessly for hours,cherishing it as the first gift her dad ever gave her. As both @23feanor and @whiteflame55 point out the field and the robot strongly mirror the "imaginary world" from which we've see scenes throughout the show. The girl may well stand for Ushio and the garbage doll for Tomoya. Ushio and Tomoya's distance breaks down in this scene and they hug, producing the first river of tears in this arc. The moment is well prepared with previous "mom said I am only allowed to cry at the toilet" scenes. On the train back Tomoya tells Ushio about her mom, something he wasn't able to do just the day before. He embraces his role as a father and next episode he takes his daughter to his home, away from her grandparents. They both are happy. This outcome trigggers the next river of tears in Sanae, who now is able to cry about the loss of Nagisa. She as well had a frozen reality, symbolized by Nagisa's room which was not touched since. Tomoya moves the Dangos from there to his own home, along with a photo of Nagisa and the typical prayer scene for her. Everybody is over that in a good way now. Next stop the reconciliation with his dad. Tomoya apologizes to him, forgives him, and talks him into moving back to his mother and the country for healing. Tomoya takes his house and debt. We also meet Fuuko again, the starfish ghost girl of S1 ep1-9. She recovered from coma recently and while being Tomoya's age her mind remained that of a primary school girl due to lack of development. She bonds with Ushio. The supernatural is back in the form of the flower field in the country, the robot and Fuuko. The last scene of the episode hass another orb of light appearing and going into Tomoya's chest. Only Ushio can see this, when she asks Tomoya about the light he is not aware. It's mayb e his reward for mastering his life. Like "Insert coin" for future miracles? Overall, now that were actual tear jerker episodes now. But it were mostly tears of joy and relief, not misery. They are shed because misery was overcome. The show itself keeps going strong with it's realism light. Which starts to take a twist towards the supernatural again. |
inimSep 13, 2022 8:35 AM
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| Episode 20. First a little quibble. Watching Cardcaptor Sakura and Usagi Drop have spoiled child characters for me, both have child actors for their VA and it improves on the performance so damn much. The difference between Sakura/Rin and Ushio is night and day. Ushio sounds like an adult playing a child (Nagisa's VA in the English dub). This may be obvious to say but I don't think i would have noticed this if I hadn't seen/heard child characters played by children in recent anime. Not sure about the tone change in this episode, we go from songs suddenly playing in the background (when Tomoya is talking to Yusuke and the Dango song) to Fuuko messing around and joking about being similar to Nagisa, then Tomoya tearing up. We see Tomoya spacing out and having visions of his life with Ushio if Nagisa had still been alive. This follows on from the conversation that Tomoya, Nagisa and the gang had on the last new year before Nagisa died about parallel dimensions. Another breadcrumb. Then we see Ushio has been going out (I knew leaving her alone wasn't a good idea, why doesn't she stay with Sanae/Akio until Tomoya finishes work?) to the same spot that Akio took Nagisa when she was sick as a child and saw a miracle happen as Nagisa recovered as the sun rose. This is now a hospital parking lot, same place Akio and Tomoya visited when Nagisa was pregnant and Akio said "you have tough times ahead". I have a feeling we're in for another dose of tragedy seeing Ushio fall sick. She said "i can't do it alone", maybe referring to her other persona in the other world and saying she needs her dads help to finish the garbage copter so they can fulfil their wish to what, see Nagisa brought back from the dead, not sure but guessing so (they'll shift to a parallel world where Nagisa is alive and they are all living as a family). |
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| Good point about the VA. I had noticed that Ushio didn't really sound like a child, and yeah, it's a minor quibble but it kind of pulls you out of it. Episode 20 Most of the episode is a bit of a palette cleanser involving Fuuko who, to her credit, pulls some decent weight this episode. She both functions as a quirky playmate for Ushio and as a third party to Tomoya's pain, asking questions that many of the other characters would skirt around or avoid. That being said, I still am not the biggest fan of her character, and the tonal shifts resulting from her presence don't really work for me. We also get some time between Kyou and Tomoya, which gives us some solid indications about how both of them have grown. It's notable that, despite being told that his friends had worried about him so much during his time in reclusion, Tomoya doesn't reach out to anyone else. His focus is entirely on Ushio and he's trying to make a good life for her, so everything else takes a backseat. That kind of thing might be good for her, but I feel like it will have consequences for him. This episode foreshadows its conclusion by showing that Ushio has been drawn to walk to the new hospital, which resides on the same spot that Nagisa's miracle recovery occurred. This brings back the concept that Tomoya mentioned about the town changing and how that's affecting the people therein, though it's still left extremely vague. There's no sense of why this effect would occur, so we're just kind of left to imagine that replacing nature with manmade structures is bad, though I don't think that's the message they're going for. Anyway, Ushio falls ill, very clearly suffering from the same weak constitution her mother had. Much as Tomoya keeps trying to move past his tragic past, it catches up with him once again. Episode 21 Tomoya does everything he can for his daughter, including quitting his job (really not sure how he keeps his finances up after this, since he refuses money from Akio and he says that he's out of it for months), though that does lead to a rather sweet scene of his exchanging his screw driver for Yusuke's in the latter's gesture of support. He has a brief conversation with Akio where they start to tackle the issue of the town changing, with both seeming to acknowledge that the changes to the town may be affecting Ushio somehow, but coming to very different conclusions. Tomoya pushes the view that the town doesn't need to change, that doing so causes pain so they should just stop. Akio is more fatalistic, arguing that the town will change regardless and that the hospital built there was to address the pain it would cause. No idea how it could be causative of the pain that Nagisa and Ushio have experienced. The hint we get at that has more to do with this other world. For a brief moment in Tomoya's exhaustion, he sees a landscape of snow that blankets the other world. And the other shoe drops. Ushio tells her father that, despite her illness, she needs to go on the trip they had planned now, appearing to sense that her life is soon coming to an end. Not sure I agree with this, since doing so might actively put her in physical danger even if they're careful. Maybe Tomoya agrees in the hopes of achieving a similar kind of miracle to the one Akio achieved with Nagisa. Snow begins to fall, and... yeah, the parallels to Nagisa's death start coming out of the woodwork. Ushio collapses, they're isolated, and Tomoya does his best to convince Ushio that they're already in a warmer place with flowers all around. She says "I love you" then dies in his arms. Seriously, dude cannot catch a break. The scene fades to white before opening on the other world again where the young girl has collapsed, though she rises once again with the help of her garbage doll. We flash back to Tomoya's first meeting with Nagisa, the scene all faded and colorless, with modern day Tomoya narrating, wondering if it was best if they had never met. My thoughts on this are a little mixed. It's an affecting scene to be sure, but it doesn't feel real. It does mirror Nagisa's own experience when she was young, so maybe this is meant to parallel that experience (though Nagisa had tried to follow Akio and Sanae and had collapsed in the snow on her own), but I don't know what they're trying to show as a result. Is it that Tomoya lacked something that Akio didn't? Is it something about the town changing that caused this? Not saying its impossible for a little girl to collapse and die from genetic disease or illness after a prolonged bout with it, but this show has been telegraphing that there's some x-factor behind all of this, a mystery that still hasn't been unraveled. It's hard to focus on the death here when this keeps coming up in relation to it. Anyway, wasn't expecting her to die this early. Still three episodes to go and I'm guessing that those will cover these issues, perhaps even somehow pulling off a miracle and bringing Ushio back. We'll have to see. |
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| Episode 20 Back to slice of life and tonal shift comedy, and the return of Fuuko and Kyou (the martial arts one of the two sisters from S1) and her pet pig. There are multiple memory lane montages with stills and emotional music ("Dango Daikazoku" in particular). Fuuko has her character driven comedy based on her mental age being that of a child (to avoid saying the show is making fun of her mental disability...). Kyou still likes to tease Tomoya and they revive their old friendship quickly. She convinces Tomoya to participate in a parent-child sports event and he starts training. Which both Akio and Ushio greatly enjoy. The angsty mood returns when Ushio for no good reason is attracted to the place where her mom was brought back to life 20 years ago trough the miracle. The hospital construction is complete by now and the meadow gone. Of all people she meets another close-to-supernatural character Fuuko there, and when asked tells her she doesn't know why she likes this place but she does. Then disaster is back: Ushio collapses with high fever. She had been compared to a more lively version of her mom multiple times in this episode. But why of all things she also has to inherit her fragile health and illness? Stay tuned ... |
inimSep 14, 2022 2:06 PM
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| Episode 21. I'm also not sure what the show is saying about the town @whiteflame55 and it's changing in connection with Nagisa and Tomoya. Tomoya tells Akio that people are destroying nature to expand the town, but doesn't that show the town is growing and thriving and a positive for a rural Japanese town when so many rural towns are losing their young population? Akio retorts by saying that change is inevitable and that Nagisa's pain and illness aren't connected to the town and the destruction of the meadow for a new hospital. Tomoya certainly has an aversion to the town Ushio's death was sad, it's always going to be sad watching a child die in her dads arms, but it felt a lot more emotionally manipulative than Nagisa's passing, ie Ushio tells Tomoya they have to make the trip now before it's too late foreshadowing her own death, snow flakes falling down as she tells her dad she loves him. The thing that gets me is that the family take the word of one doctor and then keep Ushio in the flat, and Tomoya watches her get weaker and finally die. Surely any parent would want every medical test under the sun for their child to find out what was wrong and reverse it, and that means going to hospital. Are we going to get a situation where Tomoya is taken back to the beginning of the LN and his first meeting with Nagisa and that's how the show will end, with a new beginning, or a new chance at a new beginning? Or will it be Tomoya gets taken back, choses the same but with a different outcome and Tomoya, Nagisa and Ushio are a family? How will the wish/miracle factor into this, not sure. |
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| Episode 21 Just as @23feanor and @whiteflame55 described it, the story telling in this episode is messy. Starting with the diagnosis given after merely looking at her in Tomoya's living room (no tests, no 2nd opinion, no hospital) Ushio is left deteriorating and without medical attention for months. How fatalistic you can get as a parent? "No use putting her in a hospital, there's no cure anyway". It better be terminal cancer she suffers from to justify this nonsense stance. Otoh, the details really don't matter. Nagisa died as a human, Ushio dies as a plot device, unnecessary and forced. Just as needed to drag Tomoya down to set up the catharsis. But I'm not sold for it. Then there's the attempt on mystery and symbolism. The hospital built on the holy meadow of Saint Nagisa's resurrection. The hills defiled by a shopping center. Change is bad? I'm not completely sure what the author wants to tell, but I probably don't care. It's too far fetched and forced. In parallel to the urgency of the "illusionary world" story, Ushio feels she needs to go on a trip. Tomoya and the robot comply. In both worlds she dies in the snow, just as she prophesied herself. Some cuts blur the worlds, using the themes "white out" and "snow". To go full circle, Tomoya collapses as well. He's better off dead now so why not. I don't care either. Overall, the previous few episodes were quite great. This one is not, the quality within Clannad is quite mixed. And no, I'm not an insensitive clod to not be moved by the forced death of a cartoon girl. Never blame the character, blame the writers. Planetarian remains at #1 Key adaptions after this episode ;) |
inimSep 15, 2022 11:34 AM
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| Good to hear we're on the same page about Ushio's death being rather frustrating. It's unfortunate because I think that the series knows how to run a good arc when it's just spending time with its characters. Killing Ushio may have been necessary for other elements that come after (still searching for those...), but at this point, it just felt like it pulled the rug out from under what was an incredibly genuine and heartfelt run from the series. Episode 22 It feels like every time that the focus becomes about something bigger than the actual relationships between these characters, it falters or just confuses. Case in point: this episode begins on the girl in the alternate world and the garbage robot. We have it clarified that, yes, the girl is Ushio and, yes, the robot represents her father (I still think the connection to the robot he got her is on point, given that that's how he's represented in this world). Felt a little unnecessary to clarify that, as by this point it was pretty clear, but that's OK. This other world starts to collapse as the girl dies in that other world. Strangely, it doesn't coincide with Ushio's death in the regular world, just from... you know... wandering out in the snow in a light gown and apparently not turning blue but just sort of slowly dying. Anyway, she is apparently aware that there is an alternate world and that they both once existed in that world. Not really sure what that means, since this Ushio looks so much older than the other one and the connection between the robot and Tomoya isn't so much clarified as assumed, but apparently they are some fragment of themselves from the other world. Turns out that the girl couldn't hear the robot this whole time (honestly, did anyone else catch this? Because I didn't), but now she can, just in time for her to die and for the robot to be torn apart as the world collapses. This triggers some change in the other world, the one where Tomoya is calling back to his younger days. It's unclear if this is all in Tomoya's mind or if he's actually reliving those events, but the world that was basically all black, white and grey suddenly becomes flushed with color as Tomoya realizes his mistake in not calling out to Nagisa. Again, this seems confusing. The robot was clearly some aspect of him that suddenly became a part of him... in whatever dream or fugue-like state he's currently in... and made him realize he had to call out to Nagisa. I guess it somehow made him realize that avoiding painful outcomes is not a reason to avoid joy with the ones you love altogether, though coming to this revelation in this way just doesn't make sense to me. What also doesn't make sense is the subsequent events. I would have to assume that this is Tomoya living out his dream life while unconscious to make it work, but as it is, things proceed like they did over the course of this season just... without all the bad stuff for some reason? His voice and the robot's say that they're at the end of a long journey, but then he's suddenly at the moment of Ushio's birth, and everything went fine this time. Nagisa's not in danger, he bathes the baby, everyone's so happy that there's a literal meteor shower of orbs of light outside their window. They live a very happy life together with their daughter (who apparently isn't sick), then Fuuko shows up out of nowhere and finds Ushio asleep (by... smelling her?), saying she wants to be friends. This was a weird one, guys. I knew there'd be a wish in here somewhere, but this is just like a hard reset on everything bad and it's all fixed somehow. If this is just a fever dream or something, then I don't know why we get to see any of this from Fuuko's perspective. If this is their way of giving the series a happy ending, it doesn't work for me, but then there are two more episodes. Maybe this will make sense by the end. Edit: Nope. Will still post reviews of the remaining episodes, but looking at the summaries... nope. This is what we're left on guys. |
whiteflame55Sep 15, 2022 3:42 PM
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| Was going to hide this, but given the contents of this episode, I'd say that it's not much of a spoiler if at all. Episode 23 I call it "23" but it's listed as a summary episode because that's what it is. For the vast majority of it, this is just Tomoya summarizing the events of the series. It does give some small insights from his perspective, but nothing too groundbreaking. His explanation for what happened at the end of the last episode is that, after Ushio died, just as he was falling into despair, he returned to the day of her birth. So that means that the Ushio of the other world did die at the same time, which does clarify things a bit, while adding in the "it just kinda happened" reason for her death and the collapse of the other world somehow changing the course of events by removing Nagisa's and Ushio's deaths. Tomoya apparently does believe that their deaths did happen, though, so alternate realities I guess. The only novel scene we get is at the very end, and it's nothing. Just a continuation from the finale of the previous episode where Fuuko and Ushio are asleep where Tomoya found them and started telling this story. Nagisa arrives to collect them and we end. So yeah, not the worst recap episode I've seen, but largely pointless.[/spoiler] Yes, there's more, but the remaining episodes appear to be an alt-world story about Ryou and Tomoya ending up together instead and an extra prequel episode taking place one year before the start of the series. I'll get to them (as well as other OVAs I believe are attached to S1), though they almost certainly won't affect my score, so I'll just score it now. I'll admit to being rather conflicted with this season. I found the first season pretty banal, didn't really appreciate much of the character development or even the central characters. A lot of it felt contrived and I stand by that - the moments meant to tug at your emotions just don't make sense to me and I kept wondering why the characters were choosing to behave the way they were. It ended up around a 6.5/10. What points it got were partially out of the potential I saw for these characters and partially because there were some genuinely good moments along the way to the finale for each arc, even if I found myself dissatisfied with how they worked out. After Story has many of the same problems, but also some distinct ones. I feel like the split between the real big moments (the deaths of Nagisa and Ushio, but also cap-off moments like the end of Sunohara's arc) and the actual substance of those arcs was even more distinct, with some incredibly beautiful and moving episodes in the interim when compared with those big moments that either fell flat coming off of some potentially strong character growth (Sunohara), contrived and emotion-exploiting moments that didn't hit (Ushio's death), or just bafflingly frustrating wrap-ups to plot threads that should have gotten more explanation and/or substance (the ending). It really doesn't help that this season almost completely sidelines their friends from the previous seasons, leaving loose threads all over the place and inserting characters like Kotomi to just give one-off lines about how she's beginning to understand the existence of another world. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now and assume that some of the OVAs give some more depth to these characters, but they barely feel like characters at all after Tomoya graduates, present largely as window dressing. Narrowing the focus makes sense, but nixing them almost entirely felt excessive. I still think that After Story is substantially better than the first season, but far less so than I was hoping. It has a lot going for it that S1 didn't, including far more maturity in how it approaches relationships, but I found myself frustrated far too often. 7.5/10. |
whiteflame55Sep 15, 2022 8:05 PM
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| Alright, quick thoughts on the OVAs. They're both alt world stand-alones involving Tomoya getting together with a different side character from the cast. Nagisa is absent in both stories. This more closely follows the light novel which gives him multiple paths. They both are sweet, though I'll admit a preference for the Tomoyo-focused story. Not quite as sweet on the whole, but gives more opportunity for character moments that are actually in line with these characters (though I didn't appreciate that Tomoyo herself was rather simplified in this one, given that her only motivations are to love Tomoya and save the cherry trees - Tomoya was more interesting). The Kyou story felt like we were dealing with a largely different cast of characters that just looked like the ones we knew, utilizing some of the bare bones of these characters but stripping away what made them interesting. Neither is really necessary, both both have a really nice moment (strangely enough, both taking place in bad weather - snow and rain, respectively). |
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| Episode 22. Well we got the happy ending where Nagisa doesn't die in childbirth and Ushio grows up healthy but not sure the supernatural element made much sense tbh. Nagisa says "the town is alive and i like to think it brought us all miracles and makes our wishes come true". My takeaway from that episode was the lovely OST, heavenly choral singing in the other world at the beginning and a nice insert song. @whiteflame55 i just assumed we were hearing the robots inner monologue when it spoke and it could only communicate to other world Ushio through it's actions, like when she asked if it was cold or is it leaving again and it nodded or shook it's head or gestured. Think you're right about Tomoya calling out to Nagisa and likely the message of the show, you shouldn't avoid chances life gives you just in case things don't turn out well, and you shouldn't regret the good times even if tragedy does strike. However, it then counters this melancholy statement by giving the cast the happy ending. I think ending it with Nagisa and Tomoya starting over, not knowing whether Nagisa/Ushio would live again would have been a better conclusion. You take your chances in life and reap what you sow type deal, and enjoy the moments of happiness along the way. My best guess is that Tomoya's wish was granted and he gets the happy life with Nagisa and Ushio. The Ushio under the tree is the ghost/other world image of the sickly Ushio we know from this season and who passed away, but only Fuuko can see her for some reason (maybe because they were friends?). Bit of a flat finish. Will watch last reminding recap/filler eps tomorrow so we can start Gundam S1 on Sunday. |
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| Episode 22-24 The finale episode resolves the tragedy with a cosmic reset, merging the illusionary and the real world. Both the girl and the robot die in the illusionary world, which then itself falls apart into light orbs. It seems that the girl had used her time to collect those from events of the real world, to which she's more consciously linked than the robot. Maybe she was aware of that, the upcoming cosmic reset, and the requirement to have collected a "sufficient amount" of light orb magic until then. That's my hypothesis and it helps to make sense out of the events. In the last moments of the existence of the illusionary world, the girl reveals herself as an aged up version of Ushio. She info dumps a bit to the robot, whom she calls dad and by this identifies as Tomoya. After the collapse of the illusionary world, both inhabitants resurface in the real world. For Tomoya at his "how I met your mother" scene on school hill during cherry blossom time, in which he first speaks to Nagisa. This version the scene is a bit more dramatic than in the first cut, including a hug and a dropped shoe. Then the events continue as we know them, which is really well summarized in recap episode 24. Which is pretty much an "insert episode" for this arc. The alternative time line diverts at Ushio's birth, in which Nagisa doesn't die. The first scene of ths new and improved happy world is daddy bathing the newborn baby, with a weak Nagisa and her parents watching and commenting. Outside, the air is filled with the magic light orbs which look a bit like snow falling upwards to the sky. This is followed by another stills montage with emotional music showing scenes of the life and development of all harem girls. We see the family of three stepping towards the camera, holding hands, into the future with the ca. 5 y/o Ushio at the end of the montage. The final arc is what I'd call "the merger of the old soul and the new body" for Ushio. Five years after Ushio's birth an adult yet childish Fuuko (typecast by her illeism) "smells" something on the way to the hospital. A few minutes are played as comedic relief before. She goes into nature near the hospital, maybe the place where Nagisa was revived back in the day. She sees the girl from the illusionary world lying there (aged up version in the white dress), who instantly turns into the 5 year old Ushio. My interpretation is that at this moment the old soul entered the real world and merges with Ushio. It would be a bit more sound if this took place in winter on the day of her death, but it's summer in the scene. So the "sync" is slightly out of sync, maybe adding 9 months will fix the math. Who cares, she's back. Overall, somewhat rushed and open to interpretation. But who am I to complain when I rated Ergo Proxy and Utena that high, stories can be good despite symbolism and open to interpretation endings. The recap episode is rather useful here, because it gives spotlights on what the writers considered to be clues and foreshadowing moments. Like Nagisa's theater play seems to have been intended to be. I don't feel the ends don't come together all smoothly and naturally, but it's short of annoying deus-ex-machina. Episode 23 (the filler) also is quite nice and shows the early romance from the POV of Nagisa. We share her experience and emotions while trying to make friends after repeating her class, with the "age gap" and her shy nature being problematic. Tomoya and blonde delinquent guy's prank breaks the ice for her, the rest is history. So episodes 22-24 form some out-of-order larger finale of sorts and may have better been cut into a different order as a 1:15h movie. 256 char verdict: Clannad S2 follows one harem route for a decade, well into young adulthood. Tone changes from silly school comedy to tragedy and family drama. The writing is mixed quality, there's both great natural melodrama and cringe supernatural nonsense and kitsch. (7/10) |
inimSep 17, 2022 1:26 AM
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| I quite enjoyed ep 23 seeing Nagisa, Tomoya and co before the shows start. Episode 24 gave us some helpful insights into the story. Firstly that the content of the drama clubs play is the basis for the supernatural element in C:AS, somehow Nagisa's story for the play about another world comes true. We hear Tomoya narrating the story of how he and Nagisa met (@inim were you referring to the "How I Met Your Mother" tv series, if so nice reference, that show has one of most interesting narrative styles for an American sitcom I've ever seen, especially the last season where all the threads come together) to Ushio and learn that the timeline where Nagisa and Ushio pass away seems like a dream to Tomoya now, but one he feels was all too real. We end hearing Tomoya describe how the town is made up of the people and their wishes and dreams, very different from alternate timeline Tomoya who hated the town. @whiteflame55 you made a good point about the highschool friends, they just disappeared in the second half of the show, apart from the new years meet up. Didn't see them at the wedding or turn up to see how Tomoya was doing after Nagisa's death. Misae was my best girl. Lastly a particular thank you @inim @whiteflame55 I'd avoided this show for years (without much cause it seems) but watching on my own would have been tough going. I found our discussions more fruitful and fun than the actual show. Onto the Gundam franchise tomorrow. The first show I can watch on my smart tv for ages (well without using an hdmi cable from my laptop). Last daily watch i used a smart tv app was Fruits Basket which I watched on Funimation (RIP). Since then all the shows have been on my usual sailing seas streaming site. Funny nearly every show I'm watching atm isn't available legally in the UK, InuYasha, Railgun S2 (this is one Funimation still but their Roku app is terrible and they stopped fixing the bugs ages ago when they knew about the merger, so annoying they still haven't transferred all their show catalog to CR yet and its been over half a year!), Bunny Drop, Spice & Wolf S2, Rage of Bahamut S2. |
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| It was interesting following this through without rewatching the show myself. I also loved the Ushio arc and felt it was perhaps the only amazing part in the entire franchise, culminating in that incredible scene in the sunflower field. As much as I loved it though, Ushio's death invoked very little in me - the death just felt artificial and manipulative in typical Clannad form. Regarding the last couple of episodes, I was well confused at first, but then someone pointed me to an explanation which made perfect sense. I don't remember exactly what happened, but the gist is that the collected orbs resulted in a redemptive reset of the whole story. The alternative timelines and the recaps are basically the "replays" after the reset. Once Tomoya saves all the girls, the power of the complete set of orbs enables a miracle to occur and everyone lives happily ever after. This is essentially an attempt to translate the visual novel mechanics (play through all the paths before unlocking the true ending) into a linear story telling form. |
| Take off every SIG!! |
| What a thread. I thought someone could explain the good side of the last arc to me, but none of the options worked for me. I still think I was deceived. Also because I was very confused by rewinding to the last save, I can say I was inattentive during the last episodes. So I still have a question: at the true end of Nagisa's path, Tomoya didn't fix his relationship with his father? |
| Quick internet search found this: https://www.thebobaculture.com/anime/a-simple-explanation-of-clannads-ending Browsed trough it quickly and at least it addresses many questions. Here's a list of story "head scratchers" https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/Clannad Some more weird fan theories https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/Clannad |
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jdvz said: What a thread. I thought someone could explain the good side of the last arc to me, but none of the options worked for me. I still think I was deceived. Also because I was very confused by rewinding to the last save, I can say I was inattentive during the last episodes. So I still have a question: at the true end of Nagisa's path, Tomoya didn't fix his relationship with his father? Iirc Tomoya reconciled with his father (Naoyuki) after visiting his grandmother in the show, Naoyuki's mum. She told him about the sacrifices Naoyuki had made to raise him as a single father and Tomoya realised he was no better as he had neglected Ushio after Nagisa's death. That's a good question, if Ushio and Nagisa don't die then does Tomoya still harbour resentment for his father? I think Tomoya says in the final episode where we hear him narrating the tale of how he met Nagisa to Ushio, that he remembers everything that happened in the parallel world where Nagisa/Ushio died, so maybe that prompts him to seek his father out in this timeline. |
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inim said: Quick internet search found this: https://www.thebobaculture.com/anime/a-simple-explanation-of-clannads-ending Browsed trough it quickly and at least it addresses many questions. Oh, no, I don't want to read fan theory from anonymous. Also for me "First Thing To Know Clannad is based off a visual novel" means author wants to cheat on me, because the source of the story is not an excuse for its quality. Making a good story based on good non-linear VN is very difficult, almost impossible. It's understandable that it's hard to kick something good from the alternative branches out, but if you don't know how to deal with it, this will be a problem. I think the case with 6-episodes for alternative dead-end path and return back to the 2-episodes correct way is something completely wrong. They were able to rewind, but, guys, how can I get my tears back? And I am a fan of fan theories, but if I watch anything I want to get something that editor put to it. I'm ready to watch carefully, not to miss editor hints, but this is a two way contract: I watch, he does not cheat. As you know there are two opinions: mine and the wrong one. So I don't want to find the only answer. I simply try to find an answer suitable for me only and definitely I want to find this answer among the opinions of those people whom I understand. @23feanor in my memory, something like in your explanation, as a result, the answer was hidden in the branches. That's why I prefer the story from the movie even if this movie is very average. |
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