Steins;Gate 0 Episode 12 Discussion

red-tomato said:
Eh? Wasn't that the place where Kurisu became a shotacon in the movie?

InefableAtaraxia said:
hmmm I don't remember this part of the VN I missed some routes, but I found this episode interesting, I might need to read the rest of the VN to get a better understanding. But I do remember the music that turned a switch inside Kagari's mind. Also yes this chapter gave me some Clannad vibes I think is because the song. Also in the end Kagari seem not much younger than now, and wow Okarin learned the song from Kagari, it forms a full loop and big mama Mayuri! (K6205)

ShadowZ_AnimeZ said:

They didn't really fully explain how Okabe, or should I say, the teenager Okabe managed to know the song yet his present self doesn't recall knowing the song.

SheevPalpatine said:

And the reason of that why Okabe in the present didn't remember the song and the young Kagari from 2005 is that he experienced many worldline shift and Reading Steiner. And when Reading Steiner kicks in, he can only remember to the previous worldline, but he can't remember to the events of the new worldline. So Okabe's memories before 2010 July 28th are from a worldline where he didn't met Kagari in 2005.

SheevPalpatine said:


The song is not a loop, it just seems to be a loop. You can read more about this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/steinsgate/comments/8ucqql/song_for_the_stars_about_the_song_in_sg_0_episode/

Toma400 said:
I get that "Steins;Gate Movie: Fuka Ryouiki no Déjà vu" isn't canon, but maybe - just a theory - Okabe met Kurisu, because he remembered Kagari's song heard in this place, and he was just coming back to hear it again?
And it leaded that he just became mad scientist (helping Mayuri) after meeting with Kurisu, what was explained in this episode, and shown in the ending of "Fuka Ryouki...". It all makes logical sense.. at least for now.

In the end, this meeting with Kurisu was laconic enough that he didn't say anything like "who you are" - he could think he met Kagari, therefore he asked if she got lost. Like he knew her enough to not ask about her identity.

Reapermask said:
So Okarin was the origin of the song but he only got to know it from Kagari, looks like we got a time paradox of some sorts.

Really hope that Yuki got injured in her cooking class and not because she is the motorcycle girl

No it is not a time paradox, and not a closed loop either. Time travel changes the worldlines, so Kagari is from the previous worldline's future, which means she brought the song from a previous worldline's future

You can read more about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/steinsgate/comments/8ucqql/song_for_the_stars_about_the_song_in_sg_0_episode/

Meritas said:
Let's see how the time paradox around the song gets resolved though.

Toma400 said:
I get that "Steins;Gate Movie: Fuka Ryouiki no Déjà vu" isn't canon, but maybe - just a theory - Okabe met Kurisu, because he remembered Kagari's song heard in this place, and he was just coming back to hear it again?
And it leaded that he just became mad scientist (helping Mayuri) after meeting with Kurisu, what was explained in this episode, and shown in the ending of "Fuka Ryouki...". It all makes logical sense.. at least for now.

In the end, this meeting with Kurisu was laconic enough that he didn't say anything like "who you are" - he could think he met Kagari, therefore he asked if she got lost. Like he knew her enough to not ask about her identity.

Solidgearmara said:


I thought that Load Region of Deja Vu is the true ending of the Steins;Gate series and everything else takes place before those events. Why the heck wouldn't it be canon? It's friggin brilliant and has a perfect ending.

SheevPalpatine said:


Because it contradicts with the rules which were established in the anime and its source material, the VN.

Solidgearmara said:


Because of the strange ending?

Sharpedon said:
A good episode overall. I would like to point out something about the song they were trying to trace the origin of.
It is interesting that while the writers take care to avoid major or at least obvious time paradoxes like the Americans not being able to discover Suzuka's time machine because building a time machine from a future time machine would represent a major time paradox (specifically a predestination or bootstrap paradox), they are far less careful with more minor -or less obvious- time paradoxes of exactly the same kind.

That song is a predestination / bootstrap paradox (in other words it was created out of thin air; it has no creator and no creation point, it only exists in an eternal time loop) just like building a time machine today from a future one would be (or, in the original Terminator film, creating Skynet out of the future CPU of Arnie, which was also never designed and built by anyone and thus is a major bootstrap paradox as well). It is just less evident that it is exactly the same time paradox.

If there had been no post-credit scene, thus suggesting that the song originated with young Okabe, there would have been no time paradox, despite the fact that the song went back and forth in time. Since young Okabe heard it from a younger Shiina Kagari he is not the source of the song either, that point in time was just the oldest part of the time loop. To summarize, the time loop of the song is this :
Kagari from Mayuri --> Mayuri from Suzuha -->Suzuha from Yuki -->Yuki from Okabe's mom --> Okabe's mom from Okabe --> Okabe from Kagari --> Kagari from Mayuri ..... etc etc etc, eternally.
Invoking world lines won't save this either, since everything clearly happens in the same world line.

edit/p.s.: Since the Americans(?) are apparently the ones who captured young Shiina Kagari when Suzuka lost her, judging from that post-credit scene, this is probably how they learned that time travel is possible and that she was from the future. So they've been in this game for quite a while but apparently have not developed a time machine as of yet. Though the Russians probably have, or are testing one, with the help of Kurisu's paper that her poor excuse of a father stole from her.

SheevPalpatine said:


The song IS NOT a bootstrap paradox. It just seems to be a bootstrap paradox. In Steins Gate, bootstrap paradoxes are impossible, since every kind of time travel changes the worldlines.

This is a great summary about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/steinsgate/comments/8ucqql/song_for_the_stars_about_the_song_in_sg_0_episode/

Even in your 'route', it doesn't happen in the same worldline. The very fist entry (Kagari learned from Mayuri) happened in a previous worldline, since a time traveler always come from a previous worldline. Therefore it can't be a loop.

Sharpedon said:
Of course it can; nothing stops loops from jumping world lines and generating bootstrap paradoxes. What makes the song a predestination paradox (or not) is not whether it originates from the same world line or not but whether it has an original source or not, in any world line (even if the source is five, ten or fifty word lines apart; it doesn't matter).

Sharpedon said:
Woute in the thread you posted understands this, which is why they propose a music box as the original source of the song despite suggesting (in their third post in the thread) that the song jumped through no less than five world lines

Sharpedon said:
We have not yet seen a scene where Mayuri-chan gifted Maho-san that music box as far as I recall.

Sharpedon said:
If it only happens in the VN then it is a time paradox only in the anime.

Sharpedon said:
World lines alone are not enough to avoid predestination paradoxes because they are irrelevant to the nature of the paradox

Sharpedon said:
My key point is that even if you move the original source thousands of world lines apart you still need to show that original source, origin and creation point for something/anything to occur. If you do not point out what/where/who that source is and merely claim "Well, it must be a few tens or hundreds world lines apart, who cares?" then it is still a predestination paradox, because simply adding world lines does not remedy the problem.

Sharpedon said:
I am also skeptical about needing to look up the VN to fill such plot or logic gaps or to understand the anime better

Sharpedon said:
there is no scene of Mayuri gifting Maho the music box

Sharpedon said:
You appear to think that a time travel story cannot have time paradoxes. That is, of course, impossible

Sharpedon said:
o I assume (to clarify, in this example I am a sci-fi writer) that I must have been sent the novel from another timeline where I actually wrote the novel. Wait a minute.. If in that timeline I wrote and finished the novel why would I send it to the past? That makes no sense. So myself in that second timeline must have got it from another, third timeline. Then my third timeline self must have got it from a fourth timeline and so and so on, ad infinitum.