Nobunaga the Fool Episode 21 Discussion

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Yeah, I agree, Caesar was planned from the start. I was just making a general reference there. (That is like the dream of all right there. XD)

Haha, that was epic (and I must say they must not know their French or it's intentional, (can't decide due to how Hannibal is XD) but MON is masculine and is only referred to males. XD) Caesar is awesome at trolling! (Caesar also trolled Saru. XD He trolls everyone he interacts with eventually. XD LOL)

Oh great! That is a rare find in fanfic world. XD I'm gonna read it then. :)

Jun 13, 2014 1:50 AM

#252

EratiK

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jfs said:
I wonder if the anime makers regret offing caesar so early, most forums and discussions died down since caesar died, even the 2ch and japanes forums are quiet now, he was a big reason for people to watch the show lol

I'm sure the anime makers are happy about it because they wouldn't want their work to be reduced to hyped convos about a single character.

Also >this early >ep 21. Yeah, right.

NiteBloomingRose said:
Yeah, I agree, Caesar was planned from the start.

Frankly, based on the pace at which characters were offed since the start, I can't see anyone make it out alive, except Hideyoshi. And maybe Jeanne.

Jun 13, 2014 1:56 AM

#253

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EratiK said:

I'm sure the anime makers are happy about it because they wouldn't want their work to be reduced to hyped convos about a single character.

Also >this early >ep 21. Yeah, right.

Well technically anime makers should only care about how much interest and money the anime generates, if most of the popularity (and $$) comes from 1 or 2 charas, it shouldnt matter to them...

I know ep 21 isnt early but im more referring to the fact that they built up caesars character with that ep 11 dragon powerup and all, i would think he would have an important role in the climax of the story, but instead his death was just part of the set up to the set up to the climax of the story

Jun 13, 2014 2:03 AM

#254

EratiK

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jfs said:
Well technically anime makers should only care about how much interest and money the anime generates, if most of the popularity (and $$) comes from 1 or 2 charas, it shouldnt matter to them...

I know ep 21 isnt early but im more referring to the fact that they built up caesars character with that ep 11 dragon powerup and all, i would think he would have an important role in the climax of the story, but instead his death was just part of the set up to the set up to the climax of the story

Not sure what you mean by "technically", but anime makers shouldn't only care about making money. Creators, like any craftmen, have a work ethic. A piece of art isn't an ordinary good.

Imo Caesar isn't treated differently than other characters. We had some nice insights about Machiavelli and Hannibal and both died in an expeditive way. And I think you might be disappointed in the climax because I doubt it'll be any different. Arthur doesn't even have a mech. Or has he? That would be a nice twist.

Jun 13, 2014 2:09 AM

#255

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Well, they will put in side characters they know will have appeal to get viewers (I've seen producers talk about a chara they added just to have appeal to the western audience). That is why we have fanservice in series. They put that in to get viewers and don't care if just their looks gets people to watch (do you seriously think we would have such scenes of Jeanne if that wasn't the case). So yeah, they don't care about the convos being reduced to one or two charas.

Jun 13, 2014 2:13 AM

#256

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EratiK said:
Not sure what you mean by "technically", but anime makers shouldn't only care about making money. Creators, like any craftmen, have a work ethic. A piece of art isn't an ordinary good.

Imo Caesar isn't treated differently than other characters. We had some nice insights about Machiavelli and Hannibal and both died in an expeditive way. And I think you might be disappointed in the climax because I doubt it'll be any different. Arthur doesn't even have a mech. Or has he? That would be a nice twist.

They do, but making money is the no.1 priority, if they dont make money, they will go bankrupt after all..and if a certain chara is more popular than others, it makes sense to milk it as much with merchandising that character and stuff like that with lots of official products, so taking advantage of a characters popularity is quite a normal strategy, some characters are even used as fanservice material, e.g the censoring of jeanne's 'torture' in ep 19, lots of people say are made to make people buy the DVD blu-ray which is uncensored..

Well caesar was the main 'villain' up to ep 12 and he even pulled a deus ex machina powerup to beat up the good guys, youd think this guy will have a bigger role, machiavelli only had proper lines in ep 15 and 16, though i must say her death was cheap (and weird)

IDK is arthur even real? i mean he doesnt seem to ever leave that room, there might be a reason for that, but maybe he has a secret mech, might even be one that sucks up the planets life as an energy source

Jun 13, 2014 2:21 AM

#257

EratiK

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Fanservice is one thing, and yes having a profitable anime is vital, but to think anime makers don't care about anything else is wrong imo, and no offense, makes me think you guys might have never created something by yourselves. To have people understand the show's intentions is as important, if not more, especially for an unconventional show like The Fool.

I think you're on the right track about having a special mech. Now that I think about it in Macross Plus there was a mech vs fortress fight and it was quite epic in its own right. Arthur doesn't need a standard mech.

EratiKJun 13, 2014 2:27 AM

Jun 13, 2014 2:40 AM

#258

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EratiK said:
Fanservice is one thing, and yes having a profitable anime is vital, but to think anime makers don't care about anything else is wrong imo, and no offense, makes me think you guys might have never created something by yourselves. To have people understand the show's intentions is as important, if not more, especially for an unconventional show like The Fool.

I think you're on the right track about having a special mech. Now that I think about it in Macross Plus there was a mech vs fortress fight and it was quite epic in its own right. Arthur doesn't need a standard mech.

Well ofc, fanservice is not everything,in fact those kind of animes usually fail hard

Ill just say that a combination of captivating and coherent plot with substance and engaging characters is important to make an anime profitable in the first place, good animes usually have everything, thats how they get popular, and subsequently any merchandise they release will usually sell well- because the anime plot/characters are good

Tbh this show isnt that popular,i think mainly because the plot is weak, even though in terms of character designs and art its really good, and even the voice actors is an all star cast, yet the Blu ray vol 1-2 hasnt been selling that well

But for quite a few people, its clear that watching certain characters (for me its caesar) is the main reason to follow this show (i would still watch it either way, but now i might even buy the blu-ray volume that has caesar on the cover just because i like him, thats what i meant)

Arthur is clearly the main villain here (unless its da vinci) so i would like to think he CAN fight somehow

BTW the first chapter of the anime prologue web novel was translated and has a part where da vinci meets with caesar in a restaurant..

He described caesar as like this:

In fact, he was beautiful man. His body, which resembled a marble sculpture and was composed by means of a perfect golden ratio, overflowed in mathematical beauty. Neither concealing it or boasting it, this young man called Caesar watched the grey street through the rain.
(I see, he is worthy to be called a Knight of the Round Table...)

heres the link to the translation http://pastebin.com/NDsQHVUU

jfsJun 13, 2014 3:09 AM

Jun 13, 2014 4:02 AM

#259

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I have to say that Ichi and Caesar were the main reason why I stuck with this anime. Like Jfs said the plot is weak it does have it's moments but for the most part it's mediocre at best.

All anime nowadays have fanservice. I have to say until that Jeanne scene in ep 19 it was a pretty tame show, but that scene really left me just shaking my head.

Thanks for the link. I have to say Caesar really seems like a douche in this lol...

Jun 13, 2014 4:05 AM

#260

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Bodomschild said:
I have to say that Ichi and Caesar were the main reason why I stuck with this anime. Like Jfs said the plot is weak it does have it's moments but for the most part it's mediocre at best.

All anime nowadays have fanservice. I have to say until that Jeanne scene in ep 19 it was a pretty tame show, but that scene really left me just shaking my head.

Thanks for the link. I have to say Caesar really seems like a douche in this lol...

Those novels are a legit prologue to the anime, and i thought he seemed pretty nice, or are you talking about the fanfiction i linked?

Well what about jeannes 'torture' in ep 15 as well as that leg-licking play by machiavelli in the same ep if not fetish material?

Jun 13, 2014 4:15 AM

#261

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I guess I worded that kinda wrong. What I meant to say is he's a little pompous lol... You can tell he's a little full of himself in the prologue. I guess Ichi really did drop him down a peg or two.

I really didn't have a problem with that compared to the obvious censor bars of ep 19.

Jun 13, 2014 4:59 AM

#262

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Bodomschild said:
I guess I worded that kinda wrong. What I meant to say is he's a little pompous lol... You can tell he's a little full of himself in the prologue. I guess Ichi really did drop him down a peg or two.

I really didn't have a problem with that compared to the obvious censor bars of ep 19.

Well caesar wasnt exactly humble in ep 17 towards mitsu... but i think, as i said, being with ichi brings out his true personality

The moral of the story b/w caesar and ichi is that caesar was built up over 13 episodes to be this arrogant ass who lusts for women and power, but his true self turns out to be a gentle and kind and compassionate person (It would be wrong to say that Ichi changed him, he was always a good person, just that being with her he was able to be himself) and for all that ambition he showed in the first half of the show, in the end he just wanted to find true love , he doesnt care about wealth, social status etc etc, just spending time with her is enough for him

In the end he made her marry him not so he could possess her, but so he could devote his life to make her happy and do anything she asks, its funny but it seems that way to me

I think the same goes for Ichi, being with caesar brings out different emotions from her that she never knew with mitsu (acting like a normal girl, embarassment, anger etc) and in the end she realised that Mitsu will always put his personal goals/ambitions/daddy issues/ whatever ahead of her, while caesar is the opposite: he already has wealth, social status, rank, and is greedy for more, and yet he was able to put those aside for her, this along with his charm, looks, and charisma, was able to seduce her in the end... (and very quickly at that)

IMO Ichi never loved mitsu, its more like a high school girl crushing on an older guy, otherwise caesar wouldnt be able to win her over so quickly (or maybe caesar is that much of a ladykiller who knows)

https://24.media.tumblr.com/f8623201bf311ef888a90384637afb70/tumblr_n73vuouNrV1tv30d2o1_500.jpg

Ichihime is on the 4th Blu ray cover

Caesar chose his waifu well

jfsJun 13, 2014 5:06 AM

Jun 13, 2014 11:17 AM

#263

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Read the prequel thing and LOL at how Da Vinci describes Caesar. XD

I agree, Caesar & Ichi brings out each other's true personality. It wasn't being changed our anything. After all Caesar always thought what he was doing was saying the planet. He truly believed Arthur was the Savior King. So yeah, he was never bad, just ambitious.

I agree that's why he made her marry him. It is funny. XD

I agree that Ichi never loved Mitsu, at most it was a crush (Caesar could be that good XD).

Caesar did choose well. Ichi is clearly the prettiest chara in the show with the best personality too.

Jun 13, 2014 11:00 PM

#264

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My guess is Caesar is on the 5th or 7th cover. Ichi's feelings for Mitsu is probably that of a crush but also a very close friend. I like how the three ninja girls have a different shade of pink hair. A nod to them being Ichi's historic daughters. Also do you think that Caesar noticed Ichi was speared alongside him? BTW was Ichi crying because of Caesar's death or because it was the last time she was seeing everyone?

One thing I also want to bring up is Ichi and if she might have known or had a feeling that it was Mitsu that killed Nobukatsu. I mean they did leave it kind of ambiguous. Ichi's not a stupid person far from it actually so my personal opinion is she might have known. That would explain more her confession in ep 9. I also remember that talk she had with Mitsu and how she even said Nobukatsu would be a bad leader and that the Oda clan needed to unite under Nobu. They also put in that scene with her and Mitsu watching over Nobukatsu's body telling Mitsu to continue serving Nobu etc...

BodomschildJun 14, 2014 12:39 AM

Jun 14, 2014 12:31 AM

#265

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Bodomschild said:
My guess is Caesar is on the 5th or 7th cover. Ichi's feelings for Mitsu is probably of a crush but also a very close friend. I like how the three ninja girls have a different shade of pink hair. A nod to them being Ichi's historic daughters? Also do you think that Caesar noticed Ichi was speared alongside him?

I think he knew after all she was right behind her and she cried out and groaned when the spear pierced her...

Ichi was really determined though, she didnt cough blood or succumb to her wounds until he died, you can tell she really wanted to be with him, poor ichi

And I doubt she knew, she did say that, which might have spurred mitsu, but she never intended to make him kill her brother, but her words probably played a part in mitsus decision, even hideyoshi who is closest to him was shocked at it, trust me, neither nobu saru nor ichi would have an idea that mitsu was capable of something like that

jfsJun 14, 2014 2:42 AM

Jun 14, 2014 4:19 AM

#266

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True, I so wanted to know what Ichi would have said to Caesar. It looked like she was about to say something before he died. I would have loved if they died right at the same exact time. Make it more romantic lol...

While I agree that Nobu and Saru would never think Mitsu would do such a thing I think Ichi would. The scene in ep 9 where she talks about being Mitsu's light and sharing his burden while I think is more like a confession. I think it was also made to show that she knows he's troubled and might suspect something. I also feel like that's the reason why she never found out because she already suspected it was him. This can also explain that part in the character song about a sin being committed over and over yet she will still care for him. Again, I think she probably didn't know it was him but it's a good food for thought.

Jun 14, 2014 4:51 AM

#267

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Bodomschild said:
True, I so wanted to know what Ichi would have said to Caesar. It looked like she was about to say something before he died. I would have loved if they died right at the same exact time. Make it more romantic lol...

While I agree that Nobu and Saru would never think Mitsu would do such a thing I think Ichi would. The scene in ep 9 where she talks about being Mitsu's light and sharing his burden while I think is more like a confession. I think it was also made to show that she knows he's troubled and might suspect something. I also feel like that's the reason why she never found out because she already suspected it was him. This can also explain that part in the character song about a sin being committed over and over yet she will still care for him. Again, I think she probably didn't know it was him but it's a good food for thought.

Saru and nobu is far closer to mitsu than ichi, so I think they would know first, like I said she probably just saw mitsus dark and troubled expressions and worries for him or something.. but yeah I guess maybe she does but doesnt matter, I doubt it though since if she knows he has no reason to feel so haunted by guilt if he can share it with her, after all if she really was aware she was instigating mitsu to kill nobukatsu she should be equally guilty but she didnt show signs of guilt after ordering her own bros assasination so its unlikely she knows..

Well the girl resisted her fatal injuries and even found the strength to crawl and hold her beloved until he dies, and saved only enough strength to say goodbye to her family, thats more romantic if you look at it, besides they died maybr 30 seconds apart.. besides she has to live long enough to tell everyone (including mitsu) that she was happy because of caesar lol

The part with ichi coughing blood and weeping and sobbing for caesar right after he died hurts my heart though

Well its like romeo and juliet isnt it... the guy dies first and the girl shortly after... and they were both on opposing sides too...

Still I wish I could see an Ichihime-Caesar-Arthur love triangle with him falling in love with 'king' arthur, it would be hilarious, wonder how ichi will react lol

I mean imagine if in ep 21 when she asked him ' what is it you desire' caesar replied with ' I wish to be king arthurs husband... btw can we get a divorce?' lol that would be priceless

jfsJun 14, 2014 6:54 AM

Jun 14, 2014 9:51 AM

#268

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I agree, Ichi didn't know that Mitsu killed her bro. She just saw how troubled he was and wanted to help.

That is a tough scene to watch.

It really is like Romeo and Juliet and I had a feeling they would be doing something like that...

Oh, gosh, that would be hilarious! LOL If Caesar had said that... LOL XD Ichi's reaction would definitely be priceless. XD LOL Also Nobunaga's reaction. XD

NiteBloomingRoseJun 14, 2014 10:02 AM

Jun 14, 2014 12:04 PM

#269

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Yeah, I guess she did need to say a final goodbye lol... What surprised me is how she didn't pay no mind to Mitsu in the end. I thought she might have left him a letter or something in ep 22 that says she chose Caesar lol... I liked seeing how even though Caesar was gone Ichi and everyone else still thought of him as her husband. I mean for all the crap I give Mitsu at least he didn't try anything to woo her over.

I actually thought something like that would happen. Seriously they made it seem like Caesar had fallen for Arthur in ep 20.

J do they talk about anything relevant here.
http://i.imgur.com/fQeyjVF.jpg

BodomschildJun 14, 2014 12:09 PM

Jun 14, 2014 2:47 PM

#270

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Bodomschild said:
Yeah, I guess she did need to say a final goodbye lol... What surprised me is how she didn't pay no mind to Mitsu in the end. I thought she might have left him a letter or something in ep 22 that says she chose Caesar lol... I liked seeing how even though Caesar was gone Ichi and everyone else still thought of him as her husband. I mean for all the crap I give Mitsu at least he didn't try anything to woo her over.

I actually thought something like that would happen. Seriously they made it seem like Caesar had fallen for Arthur in ep 20.

J do they talk about anything relevant here.
http://i.imgur.com/fQeyjVF.jpg

He tried to hug her in ep 18, but caesar cockblocked him, he probably realised she has feelings for him then..

Well we didnt even see a wedding ceremony and caesar went back to the enemy, but she still considers her his wife even though even the takeda lands are destroyed, they can easily break the marriage thing since it seems almost informal to me.. I guess she quickly got attached and fond of him...

Caesar seemingly falling for arthur is clearly a misdirection to surprise us of his true motives in the next ep, just like brutus is in the show to make us think caesar has plot armor until he reappears, making his sudden death more shocking...

Well the first point of view is by ichihimes VA (who seems to like mitsu) note that she made it clear its her personal opinion, she basically saya that ichihime is a very strong willed and resolved person to marry caesar and to be prepared to live in an unfamiliar and far away culture and place like the star of the west (I guess shes talking about the long term possibility if they survived) and sacrifice herself for the oda, she also says that caesar truly loved ichihime from the bottom of the heart, and that she (as in the seiyuu, not ichihime) wished that she could hear mitsu say it too before she died, she also says she is grateful for the opportunity to play an amazing woman like ichihime

Interestingly, she also says that mitsus love for ichi is different from caesar, and I think its true, for me mitsu seems to rely on her emotionally like he said in ep 22 he cant be at peace anymore, I mean its obvious that he has romantic feelings for her but its more like he does all this dark things and she gives him a refuge from all that, and I think for her its the same, he is more like a close friend and confidant first and foremost before anything romantic..

Caesar is a different story, he clearly loves her very much in a romantic sense, but he is also emotionally very mature ( he never gets emo like mitsu and ep 17 also highlights how easily mitsu gets emotional while caesar remained cool and assured in his retorts to both cesare and mitsu, while mitsu lost his cool to both of them) and he just wants to devote himself to her and make her happy, so he doesnt rely on her for emotional support, he is happy just being with her, and its clear that ichis feelings for him at the end were almost purely romantic love and physical attraction,, im not saying they dont care about each other emotionally, just that both ichi and caesar are emotionally independent enough, after all, they come from vastly different backgrounds and culture, so it makes sense that for example when it comes to worrying about her brother, ichi would prefer to discuss it with mitsu instead of caesar

I guess to put it bluntly her relationship with mitsu focuses on close friendship and supporting each other, but with caesar its about romance/sex

Btw the chara description for ichi in the top left starts off with ' for caesar with whom marriage was political, affections were quickly developed'

jfsJun 14, 2014 4:02 PM

Jun 14, 2014 4:09 PM

#271

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So Minorin is a Ichi/Mitsu shipper this makes me sad lol... I agree Caesar and Mitsu love Ichi differently. Like you said Mitsu is more for support while Caesar is more romantic. With Ichi she does look at Mitsu as a close friend while Caesar is more of a lover? I mean I want to say she does care for him emotionaly with her going out to see him and crying when she thought he was gone. I wonder how Minorin interpreted the character songs. Since she's a Mitsu fan and all.

Jun 14, 2014 4:48 PM

#272

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Bodomschild said:
So Minorin is a Ichi/Mitsu shipper this makes me sad lol... I agree Caesar and Mitsu love Ichi differently. Like you said Mitsu is more for support while Caesar is more romantic. With Ichi she does look at Mitsu as a close friend while Caesar is more of a lover? I mean I want to say she doees care for him emotionaly with her going out to see him and crying when she thought he was gone. I wonder how Minorin interpreted the character songs. Since she's a Mitsu fan and all.

Well dpes it matter what a VA who follows the script thinks? But I guess she knows the song is about 2 ppl, even if she wont analyse it for us, she sang it after all...but as I said most people who understand jap can tell its about 2 different people

Yeah ichi is clearly worried and cares about caesar emotionally, its just that im general , with mitsu knowing her for a long time and is also close to her dear brother and her clan, there are plenty of things important to her that mitsu understands or symphatise more than caesar can, understandably since caesar is a complete foreigner, but ofc if caesar needs emotional support she would be there for him too, just that he is unlikely to go all depressed and mopey towards her, he very mature, and she isnt likely to go all emo on him as well, last episode was an exception since caesar was insane, and it clearly bothered her that caesar was missing in ep 18, but in normal circumstances, they are more of a romantic couple/lovers than anything else

Jun 14, 2014 5:11 PM

#273

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Yeah, Mitsu/Ichi is definitely more of friends than anything else definitely. And probably Ichi had just mistaken her feelings for him as romantic since after Mitsu's return she didn't show any interest in him. Well, she definitely doesn't love him then anyways. Caesar/Ichi is definitely lovers and love is all they need.

All around Caesar is more mature as he's been in so many battles. He's battle-hardened, which explains some of his cold approach to things and he does what needs to be done. None of this is new for him, unlike Mitsu and Nobu who have just started.

I would have loved to have seen Caesar/Ichi living on the West Star and how it would be for her.

Jun 14, 2014 5:13 PM

#274

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I guess she might be a little bias with maybe preferring the stage play. That character song really gave me hope for a great romantic reunion with her talking about wanting to be Caesar's home to return to. I wonder don't they usually do picture dramas in anime events? Hopefully they do a Ichi/Caesar one for the one that is supposed to come up... BTW what's your thought on Ichi's convo with Mitsu in ep 20 about dominion?

Jun 14, 2014 6:43 PM

#275

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Bodomschild said:
I guess she might be a little bias with maybe preferring the stage play. That character song really gave me hope for a great romantic reunion with her talking about wanting to be Caesar's home to return to. I wonder don't they usually do picture dramas in anime events? Hopefully they do a Ichi/Caesar one for the one that is supposed to come up... BTW what's your thought on Ichi's convo with Mitsu in ep 20 about dominion?

or maybe she is just a fan of emo guys with dark personalities like mitsu or a fan of first love romance or whatever..I can see the appeal for some of them, though mitsus latest behavior makes this questionable

I thought the convo would push his betrayal, since she basically says mitsu can be savior king too, or even her lol, it just follows up on mitsus betrayal route in ep 19, and might make mitsu realize he doesnt have to always follow nobu and instead be the savior himself

In the end he still needed papa to give him the final push though

Well she did become his home in the end, since arthur and the twins betrayed him, in the end she was all he had left to live for, and she was able to accept him (he even said she was the only one he had to save, which implies he has no family or other important people out there)

jfsJun 14, 2014 7:48 PM

Jun 14, 2014 9:02 PM

#276

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You know, Mitsu's love for Ichi did get confessed... by Caesar. XD LOL

There are definitely fans of emo guys out there. I have a friend who loves them and I know she would like Mitsu a lot till his betrayal and then she would hate him. XD No matter how you look at it, Mitsu's definitely questionable now, and brain dead. His brain got fried and that was BEFORE he met Arthur. XD

LOL, Ichi, the savior king. XD I was hoping this would mean that Mitsu would betray Nobu because of that or because Ichi chooses Caesar. Not because she died and somehow he connects that to Nobu...

He always needs Papa...

Iin ep 11 Caesar told Brutus he was the only one he could trust and they had more of a leader/subordinate relationship. So yeah, Ichi was all Caesar had.

Jun 14, 2014 9:49 PM

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Being emo and brooding isnt bad, it can be somewhat cool.. like cloud or vincent in ff7, but mitsus emo is defo not one of those...

Incidentally, the exact comment that ichis seiyuu wrote on that article is something like 'personally, I want to see mitsu confess his love to ichi from his own mouth(lol)' or something like that, note that the lol was written by her too... so she might be poking fun at the fact caesar had to confess for him lmao

Well after caesar betrayed the west star he probably lost his rank , territory, and social status and his subordinates are probably loyal to arthur too so yeah

Jun 14, 2014 10:43 PM

#278

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You know I wonder what Ichi would have done if Mitsu actually confessed his love for her. I mean in ep 9 if he actually accepted her light lol.., or during the episodes Caesar was in the west star. Though technically ep 13 counts as their confession scene.

I didn't know there was an lol in the japanese language. That part was pretty funny but judging by Ichi's reaction she either didn't care or already knew. Do the other pov's talk about the episodes of Ichi's death or just about their character's.

Jun 14, 2014 11:56 PM

#279

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There is the equivalent of lol in every language.. the other pov talks about mitsu and nobu, no mention of ichi there

And who knows but I dont care personally, mitsu had his chance thrown into his lap even though up to ep 9 she never showed more than platonic feelings for him, while caesar made his own chance and actually wooed her and made her happy...

And for all their supposed tragic unspoken confession in ep 13, she sure did a quick 180 in the next episode, so I have to question whether in ep 13 her actions were motivated by fear of getting married to an apparently cruel man, and even that scene in ep 9 might be motivated by her feeling sad and lonely at losing her dad and brother all of a sudden..

I doubt it would make a diff if he confessed to her while caesar was gone, first she is his wife and he has more than kept his promise so her sense of duty and honor alone would leave her loyal to caesar, but in their reunion in ep 18 its clear she has already fallen for him so I doubt she would leave her husband who she already has feelings for...

Well she probably knows mitsus feelings even when caesar said it out but like I said by that point she was already in love with another guy.. rather than saying she doesnt care its more like 'well this is awkward' kind of atmosphere, besides at that point she was busy getting annoyed at caesar for his equal love thing

Jun 15, 2014 12:23 AM

#280

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Yeah, it can be like Vincent and Cloud or Alucard in Castlevania (with the wave of ones who do it bad I've seen lately, I have forgotten. XD). But they have perfectly good reasons to be like that. Mitsu definitely isn't one of them, though his suffering is funny. XD

LOLOLOLOL, that's hilarious! XD It does sound like she is. XD (I got to say, in that pic it does look like Mitsu is going to attack Ichi with a comb. XD)

Yeah, even with Brutus seeming to be so loyal to Caesar he would put Arthur and the West Star ahead of him. Well, Caesar did have some subordinates from the West with him, but like they have any choice in the matter of where they are. I guess if Brutus had been with Caesar, Caesar might have died earlier, so he was smart to leave him behind. LOL

That scene in ep 9 came out of nowhere. I was already shipping Caesar/Ichi and that scene didn't concern me at all. XD So random.

Yeah... you don't do a tragic unspoken confession only to have the girl having a nice time with the other guy in the next ep. XD Hm, I have to agree, that fear was probably playing a huge part in that. And besides she was talking about dying to Mitsu, so yeah, I think it's safe to say it was fear motivated not so much of her "love" for Mitsu. Hm, that also might be it for what happened in ep 9. Cause seriously it makes no sense for her to do such a 180 if she really loved Mitsu.

Yeah, Ichi's sense of honor and duty alone would keep her loyal to Caesar. Mitsu thought he had a window of opportunity, but she immediately closed it. I do believe Mitsu even saw her love for Caesar. And probably Mitsu didn't make a move on her because he was fearing rejection (along with guilt and all his other problems), as I can't see him confessing if he think he'll be rejected. But really their scene after that was quite formal.

Jun 15, 2014 1:14 AM

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Mitsu does look pretty retarded a comb on one hand a gun on the other. Ichi does have that awkward expression during that scene lol... The way they showed her crying when she slapped Caesar too loved it. I wonder what Caesar was exactly in the west? I mean all of the knights of the round table are referred to as generals. He said he has a territory and wanted Ichi to be his queen so was he a king?

Jun 15, 2014 1:54 AM

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Mitsu's choice of weapons... a gun and a COMB!!! He can't have a regalia so the comb is his next choice. XD Don't let the look fool you, it is imbued with his deadly emo power of deadly doom guaranteed to turn your brain to mush. XD

Hm, with him saying he wanted Ichi to be his queen it does sound like he is a king. And he could be too. Like in the German Empire, there was multiple territories and some of them were kingdoms with a king, but they had a Emperor of it all and he was also king of the largest territory. So with how they seem to be set up it does seem like Arthur is both a king and an emperor with his own territory while being higher than all the rulers of the others.

Jun 15, 2014 2:01 AM

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Well its clear that each round table member rules their own territory so caesar is a lord in his own right, not to mention he is also the lord of the takeda technically

And based on the web novel, caesar clearly has very high social status in the west, he was eating at an exclusive area in an exclusive restaurant so I guess he is like a noble/aristocrat, I think all round table members are

Jun 15, 2014 5:20 AM

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Something I barely noticed. I remember reading somewhere that anata is a formal way of saying you or when a wife refers to her husband. It's probably nothing but I don't remember Ichi referring to Caesar as anata until ep 21. Granted they only had a few scenes. What's your thoughts about this J.

Jun 15, 2014 5:38 AM

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Bodomschild said:
Something I barely noticed. I remember reading somewhere that anata is a formal way of saying you or when a wife refers to her husband. It's probably nothing but I don't remember Ichi referring to Caesar as anata until ep 21. Granted they only had a few scenes. What's your thoughts about this J.

Nope anata she uses in 21 is clearly just a normal you, in ep 12 when she threathened to kill him she also uses anata, I think anata to mean darling is a modern term so its definitely not dear or darling in the context, that said ichi in ep 14 refers to caesar as caesae dono and not you, like when she asked him about the cake and when she asks him to go save her brother she says it like 'did caesar dono make it ?' And 'if caesar dono will not go' rather than 'did you make it' and 'if you will not go' ,l

I think in old times this is a respectful and formal way to refer to her husband in 3rd person, in ep 21 she refers to caesar with anata (you) instead of caesar dono im not sure what this means but I think in ep 14 she was very formal with him and referring to him in the 3rd person as she did in 14 is very polite and respectful and formal (after all in old japanese times wifes are supposed to serve and obey men without question so it might be her way to show formal respect to him as her husband and her lord) not that he would care, he clearly has fallen under her spell from the start

Tbh ep 14 is quite hilarious since traditionally japanese women were submissive and obeys the husband so ichi whipping caesar and having him under her thumb is quite funny in that context (after all traditionally women who were sent as arranged marriage usually just ended as child bearers to produce heirs and to please the men to keep the alliance) note that im sure ichi was prepared to 'please' caesar in any way she could since the alliance was important for odas survival, and its also her duty as his wife, the fact that caesar didnt make a move on her right away must have surprised her since she was clearly expecting him to demand xxx right away

jfsJun 15, 2014 5:46 AM

Jun 15, 2014 5:01 PM

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I guess that's one of the things that get lost in translation. I mean the japanese language has all these different ways to refer to oneself and someone.

Yeah, like her VA pointed out she was prepared to be a perfect wife like Himiko lol... BTW the other song oath for my dears is there a mention of Caesar or does it just refer to the people important to her.

Jun 15, 2014 6:27 PM

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Bodomschild said:
I guess that's one of the things that get lost in translation. I mean the japanese language has all these different ways to refer to oneself and someone.

Yeah, like her VA pointed out she was prepared to be a perfect wife like Himiko lol... BTW the other song oath for my dears is there a mention of Caesar or does it just refer to the people important to her.

bunch of crap and metaphors about wanting peace...

Well as i maintained, theres defo more to caesar/ichis wedding night than we saw... i mean i mentioned that for a wife in those days to just make demands like she did to ceasar (choose me or ur king) thats considered very bold or even inappropriate in terms of deference and respect japanese wifes traditionally are taught to show their husband, if ichis opinion of him stayed the same (like how she was sad and afraid of him at the start) she would probably ask him formally while seating down or maybe just flat out pleading with him..

But whatever happened was enough to convince her that there was a good chance that caesar would choose her over his king, and she became bold enough to even make those kind of demands from him (note that she was asking him to make enemies of his king and fight/kill his former friends)

I would even go as far as to say that in ep 21 (going by the chara song, she already knew she was in love with him at this point) her motivations for seeking caesar out for answers was driven mainly by her insecurities about his feelings for her more than anything (she mostly asked him about his desires and about love after all)

jfsJun 15, 2014 7:35 PM

Jun 15, 2014 7:38 PM

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I don't think she was afraid of him maybe just nervous of what was to come. Yeah, I was definitely surprised when she appeared with her naginata on hand.

The character song really does a good job at showing Ichi's inner turmoil that we really don't see in the anime. I mean to me it sounds like she feels a little guilty for developing feelings for Caesar? What was that whole business with the flower blooming in her heart?

Speaking of character songs Caesar's comes out next week I think. Both songs are probably gonna be about Ichi lol...

Jun 15, 2014 7:56 PM

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Well she was an innocent princess and now she has to sleep with a seemingly evil and cruel man who she doesnt know, so shes probably scared but her sense of duty forces her to hide it...

There was no turmoil there, the 2nd part that talks about caesar she talks about not hesitating anymore, so she has firmly made her decision in her heart... and about the flower blooming is related to the songs title 'name of flower' , and she is saying that she wants to accept the name of the flower that has bloomed in her heart, which is called Love

So basically she is saying she has fallen in love with caesar, but the first part about mitsu doesnt have any mention of love so....

Note that the last line of the song that says love can be intepreted as 'the person (caesar obviously) will surely call it (the name of the flower) love' or 'people will surely call it love' but im going for 'the person' since the pronoun used is generally singular and also used to describe a single person in the song, so im going for 'the person' version, especially since caesar just happens to talk alot about love, and its more romantic in that context

Jun 15, 2014 10:04 PM

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I was surprised how Ichi appeared with naginata in hand making demands. XD Even though she was how she was she was more cute than anything though. LOL

Well, I think its safe to say that it is "person" too just based on how Caesar talks about love. XD

And now I guess Caesar & Ichihime are like the saints that Jeanne had visions of, I suppose.

Jun 15, 2014 10:34 PM

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NiteBloomingRose said:
I was surprised how Ichi appeared with naginata in hand making demands. XD Even though she was how she was she was more cute than anything though. LOL

Well, I think its safe to say that it is "person" too just based on how Caesar talks about love. XD

And now I guess Caesar & Ichihime are like the saints that Jeanne had visions of, I suppose.

Yeah it was kinda cute actually with how she wears that headband LOL, defo needs more caesar x ichi moments they are fun to watch, even when he was brainwashed it was still funny when he trolled her about the equal love thing

Alot of people argued in 2ch about how caesar x ichi doesnt make sense since they only know each other for a few days, but IMO even romeo and juliet, the most famous love story, took place only in 4 days, i.e they only knew each other for a day, fell in love, get married and died together in that time, so tbh its nothing new, if anything, their story might be based on romeo and juliet

Well yeah its nice to see jeanne seemingly acknowledging ichi and caesar as 'an item' though, i guess everyone knew those 2 loved each other and thats probably why their funeral were held together, so i guess nobu did end up taking caesars regalias

With how himiko talked about being nobus wife in the afterlife, i guess its comforting to know that it really might have been caesar/ichi who answered her prayers, and that theyre now together in the next life lol

Jun 15, 2014 10:49 PM

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That headband! LOL Indeed, they are very fun to watch no matter what the circumstances are. They are really one of the most natural pairings I've seen.

I don't think how long they knew each other was a problem. I understand and see how they fell in love so quickly. Oh, really, it took place in 4 days? Wow. With that knowledge I am pretty sure that they were based off of Romeo and Juliet.

It was, though, indeed, everyone knew. Yeah, guess Nobu did and gave them to Jeanne (well those two anyways).

I do believe that confirmed that Caesar/Ichi did and confirmed or else they wouldn't have had that. LOL They even showed Caesar & Ichi when she said that. XD

Jun 16, 2014 12:03 AM

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Honestly during that scene all I was thinking of was what she was planning to do to the mechs with that thing lol... What is the current attitude the jap fans have toward Caesar/Ichihime? Well like I said that praying scene in ep 23 was my favorite of the episode... BTW was it confirmed that it was a dual funeral. I mean it was held in Ichi's room and I only saw what I presume is an urn.

Jun 16, 2014 12:17 AM

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Bodomschild said:
Honestly during that scene all I was thinking of was what she was planning to do to the mechs with that thing lol... What is the current attitude the jap fans have toward Caesar/Ichihime? Well like I said that praying scene in ep 23 was my favorite of the episode... BTW was it confirmed that it was a dual funeral. I mean it was held in Ichi's room and I only saw what I presume is an urn.

There were 2 owari symbols on it at the back while there was only one for nobuhides funeral, its definitely for 2 people

Caesar/ichi is quite popular and they like to troll mitsu in japanese 2ch threads... not much different really..

In fact caesar is quite popular, idk if there is a character popularity poll, but one guy said there was and caesar topped the poll, but i saw it in a forum so idk if its true

Jun 16, 2014 12:27 AM

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If Ichi is like her brother, she will be way more effective with that than a mech. XD

So their ashes were together? That's sweet.

Oh really? I hope that is true. I know on an Eng wikia he is in the lead, but that doesn't really count for anything. XD

Jun 16, 2014 12:31 AM

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NiteBloomingRose said:
If Ichi is like her brother, she will be way more effective with that than a mech. XD

So their ashes were together? That's sweet.

Oh really? I hope that is true. I know on an Eng wikia he is in the lead, but that doesn't really count for anything. XD

IDK about ashes, just that there were 2 symbols instead of one on the background like for the fathers funeral, not sure about jap funeral traditions, but defo the funeral was for the both of them

Jun 16, 2014 1:03 AM

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Nobuhide's did only have one. It definitely would be nice if it was a double funeral, maybe that's why Mitsu only showed up for a second lol... I'm surprised they had her funeral in her room though. I mean they had Nobuhide's in that council area, but I do remember reading somewhere that for a japanese funeral the wake is supposed to be held in the room of the deceased or something like that.

Jun 16, 2014 1:08 AM

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I just assumed the urn held ashes. Well, at least it was for both together.

Haha, perhaps that's why Mitsu only did. LOL

Jun 16, 2014 1:12 AM

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Meh, caesar saved his sorry ass and got brainwashed and died because of it, he shouldve let mitsu die in hindsight, look at the damage he is doing now...

Nobuhide is the clan lord after all, ichis funeral was more of a private funeral among close friends/family, and caesar is her husband and everyone knows they loved each other, im sure nobu cremated/buried them together, after all the west clearly didnt have ceasars body, otherwise he would be turned into a zombie (since one of the twins who died there was turned into one) but brutus took caesars place instead

Oh Mitsu... EP 22: 'What peace is worth Ichihimes life'

*Kills Pure and Innocent Shota*

Jun 16, 2014 1:26 AM

#300