Nobunaga the Fool Episode 22 Discussion

jfs said:
MITSU I AM YOUR FATHER

Come on dude, at least Alexander and Caesar saw legendary figures (achiles and Aphrodite)

honestly, that was pathetic how he cried and went 'daddy'- Caesar is right again on his daddy issues

Honestly, is anyone still surprised Ichi chose caesar over him? Compared to Mitsu caesar has the purest heart, and i meant that

Seems like former round table members were revived into perfectas and zombified, except caesar, Brutus took his place.. the other 4 seats is supposed to be nobu saru himiko and jeanne...

Guess they didnt have time to find caesars DNA to edo tensei him or whatever

BaiHu27 said:


Regardless of your bias against Mitsuhide, it doesn't change the fact that all of them, including Caesar, were manipulated by Arthur. The question now is what Nobunaga's next course of action is.

BaiHu27 said:


Regardless of your bias against Mitsuhide, it doesn't change the fact that all of them, including Caesar, were manipulated by Arthur. The question now is what Nobunaga's next course of action is.

jfs said:


And why am i biased against Mitsu in the first place? Because he is pathetic

Sniffing and crying and calling out 'daddy' at his age... is frankly pitiful

BaiHu27 said:

There's nothing wrong with crying for a father whom you've loved. Anyone would considering the person in question regardless of age. That is only my humble opinion.

jfs said:


Did Nobu sniff and cry 'daddy' when he saw his dad in ep 19? so nah not anyone

Mitsu is obsessed with his daddy issues, caesar confirmed this in ep 17

So what umad?

Did arthur also manipulate Mitsu to go betray Nobu, his supposed best friend, despite Ichihimes last words believing in him, to go to arthur on his own free will despite the entire thing being clearly arthurs doing, and arthus side being the one that caused Ichis death in the first place? please

And even with ceesar/ichi dead watching Mitsu suffer and becoming a fag is still hilarious and worth watching the show for me, eat your heart out

jfs said:


Did Nobu sniff and cry 'daddy' when he saw his dad in ep 19? so nah not anyone

Mitsu is obsessed with his daddy issues, caesar confirmed this in ep 17

So what umad?

Did arthur also manipulate Mitsu to go betray Nobu, his supposed best friend, despite Ichihimes last words believing in him, to go to arthur on his own free will despite the entire thing being clearly arthurs doing, and arthus side being the one that caused Ichis death in the first place? please

And even with ceesar/ichi dead watching Mitsu suffer and becoming a fag is still hilarious and worth watching the show for me, eat your heart out

BaiHu27 said:


Forgive me, but why ask me something along the lines of "umad"? You seem to believe that I take this on a personal level. To answer your question, no I am not mad. I am fairly indifferent to the events that are transpiring simply because it does not affect me whatsoever. Rather, forgive my abrupt analysis, but you seem like the passionate person who wears her emotions on her sleeves. While I maintain a rather cordial conversation, you seem quick to defend your views by slandering a fictional character in the hopes that it would hurt me emotionally. All I said was my view of Mitsuhide's reaction, yet you vehemently voice out negatives of said character. For future conversations, please try to remove your "fangirl" mentality and recognize the conversation for what it is rather than what you interpret it to be.

jfs said:


Did Nobu sniff and cry 'daddy' when he saw his dad in ep 19? so nah not anyone

Mitsu is obsessed with his daddy issues, caesar confirmed this in ep 17

So what umad?

Did arthur also manipulate Mitsu to go betray Nobu, his supposed best friend, despite Ichihimes last words believing in him, to go to arthur on his own free will despite the entire thing being clearly arthurs doing, and arthus side being the one that caused Ichis death in the first place? please

And even with ceesar/ichi dead watching Mitsu suffer and becoming a fag is still hilarious and worth watching the show for me, eat your heart out

BaiHu27 said:


Forgive me, but why ask me something along the lines of "umad"? You seem to believe that I take this on a personal level. To answer your question, no I am not mad. I am fairly indifferent to the events that are transpiring simply because it does not affect me whatsoever. Rather, forgive my abrupt analysis, but you seem like the passionate person who wears her emotions on her sleeves. While I maintain a rather cordial conversation, you seem quick to defend your views by slandering a fictional character in the hopes that it would hurt me emotionally. All I said was my view of Mitsuhide's reaction, yet you vehemently voice out negatives of said character. For future conversations, please try to remove your "fangirl" mentality and recognize the conversation for what it is rather than what you interpret it to be.

jfs said:


I was referring to the other guy whose rant i couldnt be bothered to quote directly

And to the other guy, how is she 'idiotic' and how does Nobu 'fail' to save her? you are the one who needs to take off your hate glasses... Nobu did everything right last episode, nobody could have predicted or stopped cesare from ordering his assasination...

Nobu does not deserve being doubted after last episode, at least Jeanne has her visions and was arguably influenced by arthur, but mitsu has always doubted Nobu since episode 19, where da vinci put ideas in his head

Besides its much more sensible to blame caesar, he is her husband and was supposed to protect her, but what, he blames Nobu instead? or why not blame himself since he swore so confidently 'i wont let anything happen to you, ichihime-sama'

jfs said:


I was referring to the other guy whose rant i couldnt be bothered to quote directly

And to the other guy, how is she 'idiotic' and how does Nobu 'fail' to save her? you are the one who needs to take off your hate glasses... Nobu did everything right last episode, nobody could have predicted or stopped cesare from ordering his assasination...

Nobu does not deserve being doubted after last episode, at least Jeanne has her visions and was arguably influenced by arthur, but mitsu has always doubted Nobu since episode 19, where da vinci put ideas in his head

Besides its much more sensible to blame caesar, he is her husband and was supposed to protect her, but what, he blames Nobu instead? or why not blame himself since he swore so confidently 'i wont let anything happen to you, ichihime-sama'

jfs said:

Nobu does not deserve being doubted after last episode, at least Jeanne has her visions and was arguably influenced by arthur, but mitsu has always doubted Nobu since episode 19, where da vinci put ideas in his head

Besides its much more sensible to blame caesar, he is her husband and was supposed to protect her, but what, he blames Nobu instead? or why not blame himself since he swore so confidently 'i wont let anything happen to you, ichihime-sama'

uran10 said:


For the love of god... In mitsuhide's eyes, nobunaga failed to save the woman who he was in love with, on top of that he has been hearing that nobunaga is the destroyer king. Nobunaga was right there with ceaser and ichi and in his eyes he didn't save them.

Add grief and regret into that equation and you can understand where Mitsu is coming from. I'm not saying what he did was justified but at that point in time there was enough doubt in his heart for him to go forward. He wanted to dispell his doubts once and for all so he went to arthur. (speculation) No one really sees that arthur has manipulative powers because once you stand in front of him it automatically begins to work on you.(speculation) You are watching from the angle of "I hate mitsuhide" and I am watching from the angle, "mitsu, is being an idiot but I can see where he is coming from, still doesn't change the fact that hes being an idiot"

You need to take of your hate goggles and take a good look at the episode again.

jfs said:

Um so let me ask you, who was it that swore 'i will never let anything happen to you Ichihime sama' , Nobu or Mitsu?

Mitsu was the one who failed to protect her... he shouldnt blame Nobu, now i agree that i may have been to biased in speaking out against Mitsu, but you cant deny he was UNREASONABLE to blame Nobu in any way for Ichis death

Mitsu was there too along with jeanne, maybe if he wasnt so busy drawing his sword towards nobu and getting all angsty about it he couldve gotten there in time, Nobu is not God, he cant save 2 people who were ambushed so suddenly, if anything he noticed the danger before anyone else

Anyway with my main reason for watching this show gone, im going to tone it down from now, so that should be enough for you

jfs said:


Ill just blame it on Plot induced stupidity, but its kinda obvious who is the destroyer king here... Arthurs Palace sucks the very life out of the planet and is causing the destruction.. how can Mitsu think arthur can POSSIBLY a good guy-_-

Anyway with my main reason for watching this show gone, im going to tone it down from now, so that should be enough for you

uran10 said:

All of them technically failed to protect her. He was in that instance also acting under the impression that nobu is the destroyer king. No one could have gotten there int ime is right, but nobu did try and he did FAIL. Mitsu also failed. Everyone who was present failed to save her.

I already said that mitsu was an idiot in this episode didn't I? what I meant by that was him blaming nobu but he was grieving. Its not forgivable, but he was in his moment of weakness. From the outside watching we can see clearly. But if you were there, you might have done the exact same thing.

Anyway 2 more episodes left, let's see how this ends because I really don't see it wrapping up properly right now.

jfs said:


You are probably right, Just that its Mitsu who several times mentioned protecting her like its his duty, so to see him blame nobu like this is hard to accept, but i guess they have to give him a reason for his betrayal, maybe, idk how Mitsu might feel last ep, i guess mitsu was always the impulsive emotional type (remember when he tried to punch cesare in ep 17), so i guess it fits his character

I agree with the guy above i guess, Ichi decided to meet caesar with little protection and she knew she was risking her life, its her life tbh, she chose to risk it and lost it, and i dont think she regretted it

Yeah there is alot of unresolved plotlines for 2 episodes, Like Kenshin, is he like really going to be trapped there forever? 2 eps left and we have yet to see his rematch with alexander

Im most interested in how Palais Natura (arthurs thing) is related to Honnouji... Will the betrayal occur during the last supper? (ie when the 12 chosen meet) after all in the painting Mitsu is depicted as Judas

Well Honnouji is a temple and arthurs palace seemed like a church, so i guess they can relate it that way, its kind of loose, but this anime isnt one to worry about those things

BaiHu27 said:


Speaking of Kenshin, will he show up? I also feel that maybe Da Vinci could be manipulating the whole thing.

MiyuBunny said:
Now I'm really wondering what's under Arthur's mask. Apparently the mask can change in every way possible, to every person possible. I'm wondering if the 'real' Arthur is a she (However, I doubt it, posture looks a bit too manly), a he (Mostly likely) or maybe even an 'it'. BTW, from the moment Mitsuhide assassinated Nobunaga's brother, I already started disliking him. I mean, the one moment he is praising Nobunaga, and the other moment he is hating him and blaming him...

Bodomschild said:
Honestly I don't see a good ending for Mitsu. He's been setup as a tragic character since ep 1. I agree that line that Mitsu said had me scratching my head. Ichi clearly died in love with Caesar if she had lived it would have been weird, but if we go by the character song she did still have feelings for Mitsu so you never know.

Vooo said:
Mitsuhide's role is of a coward just like in history. Always hiding behind the physical and emotional mask. He will always be remembered for his cowardice. Good adaptation.

BaiHu27 said:


Now you're taking things out of context. While you can argue that this defines Mitsuhide's character here, there is no indication of the historical Mitsuhide ever being remembered as a coward. In the first place, there are many theories as to why Mitsuhide betrayed Nobunaga. There are arguments by scholars that his betrayal may have been justified, owing to Nobunaga's brutality during his campaign. Don't talk about things you have no knowledge of.

Bodomschild said:
I took that verse and song to mean that she still has feelings for Mitsu "the scent of those past days never forgotten" blah blah, but now she has found Caesar who is precious to her and wants to be there for him. It makes it seem too me that if Caesar had only died then Ichi would have gone back too Mitsu since she hasn't forgotten her feelings for him.

Vooo said:


Wow, did not know you were around during the Sengoku period...

freaking moron lol.

jfs said:
I wont argue about history which i lack knowledge of, but the historical mitsuhide was remembered by most people as the guy who betrayed and caused oda nobunagas death (obviously) and was killed by a peasant 13 days later

BaiHu27 said:

Yes he is remembered for causing Nobunaga's death, but not many records view him as a coward. There are also multiple accounts to his fate after the battle of Yamazaki. As you stated, one story was that he was killed by a peasant after the battle. Another was that he committed suicide after the battle. Yet another theorizes that he survived the battle and may have lived as a priest. None of these are confirmed.

jfs said:


I know, but thats the most common way people remember him as (traitor who betrayed nobunaga, caused his death, died soon after)

In most fiction, Nobunaga is actually portrayed as a demonic/evil man (see samurai warriors, Onimusha series etc) so mitsus betrayal is actually quite justified like in onimusha, but there are lots of nobunaga fiction out there so IDK those are the 2 i remember

That said, wikipedia theories for his reasons for betrayal has only one that states that he betrayed nobunaga out of his ruthlessness...

The other theories generally doesnt reflect well on him... they are more or less

-Personal ambition-tired of waiting for promotion
-Personal Grudge- Nobunaga throws Mitsuhide's priceless dinnerware into the garden pond.
- Mitsuhide's mother died for Nobunaga's cause.
-Nobunaga accused Mitsuhide of superficially praising his allies after their victory over the Takeda and physically kicked him.
-because he was deceived/asked to

Anyway who cares this isnt a show that cares much about historical accuracy

BaiHu27 said:

I know, but my problem with Vooo's statement was that he stated it as if it were a complete fact regarding the historical Mitsuhide. No one can really say how he was viewed because there are many interpretations to his betrayal. I could care less what he thinks about Mitsuhide in this show since that one is based on opinion.

jfs said:


Im just saying that While there are many intepretations, in GENERAL, most common people in japan (and im saying this as someone who is studying there) just know him as a historical figure who 'betrays nobunaga, caused his death, died soon after' thats just the most common intepretation and most widely accepted i dare say

Like i said, though, in general, when you mention nobunaga to jap people, they will remember something like 'cruel evil domineering warlord' though fiction stories probably plays a big part in this image of nobunaga

BaiHu27 said:

Oh its nice that you're studying there. Where, may I ask? I lived in Kyoto with my aunt for 4 years, so I'm curious where you're currently studying.