Suisei no Gargantia Episode 9 Discussion

katsucats said:

When you see people spraying down mosquitoes to prevent West Nile disease and malaria, you scream, "Damn rascists!!! How dare they justify genocide just because they're animals!"

Fai said:



And about Saya no Uta.
And Fate Zero was supposedly his try to "break away from depression"(over this though he had an emotional breakdown down the line when he realized that he psychologically lost the ability to write anything happy).

StopDropAndBowl said:

Are mosquitoes sentient beings? No, they aren't.

The Hideauze are, apparently, as sentient as humans. In fact, they are evolved humans. If I went around slaughtering black people because they look different than me and I find them to be disgusting, I would be called a racist and I would be committing genocide.

StopDropAndBowl said:
Are mosquitoes sentient beings? No, they aren't.

The Hideauze are, apparently, as sentient as humans. In fact, they are evolved humans. If I went around slaughtering black people because they look different than me and I find them to be disgusting, I would be called a racist and I would be committing genocide.

Pusswookie said:
Scuffykiwi you seem knowledgeable enough, mind answering my question from earlier? It's about halfway through the last page.

Also: Lol at StopDropandBowl for inadvertently admitting that he wants to genocide black people but can't because of negative social stigmas. First-world problems.

scruffykiwi said:


Is it the question about appearing to have different forms? Well there is an answer to that. The development on an embryo depends ALOT on the conditions within the womb, hence the health conditions that can appear due to abuse during pregnancy. Also by switching on and off just a few genes during development you can DRAMATICALLY change the final form. For instance, it only takes a knockout of one gene in fruit flys to make legs grow out where their wings are.

My guess is that if you wanted to do this to the human population there would be 2 steps. First applying symbiosis with the squid form on adults which could be reversable, then secondly using changes during embryo development for a more dramatic and permanent effect.

Gan_HOPE326 said:
For all the people who says "it isn't scientifically plausible". It seems to me the anime lays down the explanation in a pretty simple way:

1. Evolvers create symbiont squid-like creatures
2. Evolvers modify the human genome so that it can become more compatible with the metabolism/life cycle of the symbionts
3. Evolvers strive at creating 'a new organism' which actually the merging of the two symbiotic organisms - the human and the squid-like thingy. Such a symbiosis could be automatically triggered at birth, or even exist before that. For anyone who thinks this to be outlandish - we already live all our life long in symbiosis with organisms that we depend upon for our survival, those would be the bacteria in our bowels. Also, there are things called "mitocondria" that now exist in every cell of almost every living organism that I know of, and that are strongly suspected to have once been independent organisms (most likely bacteria themselves) which started living in symbiosis with other cells and ended up being absorbed and integrated in their own life cycle. The more you know.

And most importantly:

4. Evolvers call themselves like this because they appeal to the 'concept' of evolution, not the actual Darwinian natural selection process. They think that they have to 'imitate' and improve nature's evolutionary process in order to survive - sort of like an airplane can draw inspiration from a bird, but is not quite the same thing.

Said this, I don't think Gargantia has done a bad job with this plot twist, considering that it's somewhere in between "soft" and "hard" science fiction. It's nothing less plausible than wormholes - for those who don't know their physics, functioning wormholes are impossible too at the current state of our knowledge, since they would collapse as soon as something having mass tries to pass through them. And I'm talking about ABSOLUTE THEORETICAL IMPOSSIBILITY here. The only way to stabilize them would be with (for now assumed non-existent) exotic (negative mass) matter, and if we had that, we'd have also the Alcubierre drive for FTL travel. Said this, I am ok with these limitations. This isn't freaking Planetes (which was as realistic as it gets), it's a show with a mecha. The very idea that the most functional form for space combat could be the humanoid one is the most ludicrous of the bunch. Suspension of disbelief isn't broken by this kind of things for me.

One more thing. You should tailor your expectations of realism to the setting. I am a Physics PhD and I had no problem with QB's thermodynamics as they appeared in a series which had the word 'magic' twice in the freaking title alone. Suisei no Gargantia is clearly a not especially hard sci-fi series. Gradual human genetic modification is plausible in this context. I'd have been enraged if they had come up with a potion that upon being drank turned a human into a Hideauze in the space of a few seconds. Or, you know,

(Attack on Titan latest episode)

Darklight0303 said:


They're not anymore. They don't talk. They bite and eat. They stopped being human ages ago.

Pusswookie said:

Also: Lol at StopDropandBowl for inadvertently admitting that he wants to genocide black people but can't because of negative social stigmas. First-world problems.

AlexGK said:
Damn it, I must get that OST when it gets released. It has some really awesome tracks and it reminds me of Freelancer somehow. When Ledo faced the Squid mother I really felt I felt nostalgic somehow. I need to install Freelancer again, lol.

Fai said:

That's an assumption you don't know to be true.

I am pretty sure no one in alliance would ever try to talk to them and they might not need external communication to communicate with each other.

Not to mention that EVEN IF the present hideauze would be non-sentient, what was done would still be genocide since it started when they were sentient. .

katsucats said:
First, as another user mentioned, the Hideauze aren't any more sentient than fish from what we can tell. Second, it doesn't matter if they are sentient, they are hostile. If all black people unanimously attacked anything in sight, then you would be justified in annihilating them at the roots. Unfortunately your analogy doesn't really work, does it?

More immediately, and on a higher order, what is the relevance of sentience, exactly? The definition of sentience notwithstanding, does it somehow fit into your world view that annihilation of a non-sentient species is justifiable, but annihilation of a sentient species become racist? So where is this cut off point in intelligence between where you can just kill a being without batting an eyelash, and where killing one makes you a murderer?

I charge that your moral prescriptions aren't very consistent, and that you really just have no clue what racism even is. It makes no difference whether Hideauze are evolved human beings or evolved mosquitoes. As long as we accept the narrative that they are a threat to the human race, then that is all the justification a human being needs to eliminate them.

By the way: OMG Killer squid is actually a human child!!1111 Cheap manipulation. It's like expecting us to get shocked at the sight of a starving African child. It seems like this is working for a lot of you... but hey, different strokes for different folks...

Darklight0303 said:


Except you're wrong about that. Just wait until Hanji starts explaining about Titans. The fact that they evaporate and so does their blood is already a huge clue to the nature of their mass and overall physiology.

Darklight0303 said:

And since then the Hideauze have started being the dominant force with CU unable to do a damn thing to stop their expansion. Hideauze are no poor abused victims just as much as the CU aren't. They were adapted to live in space. They didn't HAVE to steal from the CU. They with their precious new race could have colonized any other planet in the solar system but instead they got all "OH NO YOU DON'T" at the CU and wanted to steal it. When it comes to space survival the Hideauze had it best and the most options. CU was gonna leave and never come back hence why destroy the gate. You're telling me those amazing geniuses wouldn't be able to use the pieces of the destroyed gate to make their own eventually? No they wanted the easy way out and after that they continued to hunt the CU instead of going into teritory where the CU didn't go to. There is no Coexistance in the vocabulary of Hideauze either. Stop trying to make either side look like the good guys. They are both bad but the lesser evil once you weigh everything IS the CU.

scruffykiwi said:
They mention very clearly it's a symbiotic relationship between the squid and human. BTW I work with GMO's every day in the lab and yes while this is is clearly impossible with current technologies there is a hell of a lot we do not understand with genetics and we are still in very early stages with gene therapy.

Oh yeah and as to the misuse of the word evolution, well I admit that the way the general press uses it pisses me off and it usually is used incorrectly. We are certainly not talking about darwinean evolution here! However, the term 'evolvers' seems to be a derogatory term applied by the humans.

Edit:

One final comment, It is very likely that the symbiont has had human genes incorporated to avoid rejection, so that is the starting point for your "human genome experiments". :)

Pusswookie said:

Though that didn't really answer my question(s), it was along the same vein, so I'll just ask you to elaborate.
Are you saying that the cute one is an abnormality and might be the result of it's cephaloparents dropping acid during the pregnancy or spousal abuse? I doubt that's true, because it seems like they all start out looking vaguely human, and then gradually(?) turn in to rave party monsters. What I'm asking is, how in the growth process do they get from the humanoid kawaii squid to Mama mollusk with the Sarlacc mouth?
Do they just accrue more and more squid parts [as they mature] until they no longer look human, but in fact it's just an organic shell that's genetically melded to the wearer? Actually, let me try and word this in a less confusing way: is there the semblance of a human at the center of every hideauze, encased in and melded to squid flesh, or have they done away with human similarities almost altogether and are now an entirely separate life form? Probably the latter, though that still doesn't explain how they make such a drastic metamorphosis from humanoid child to Obviously a Squid and Nothing Else adults.

Speaking of, weren't they originally meant to be able to shed their cephalopodic exterior post space flight, or was the complete lack of opposable thumbs and other such nifty bits a design oversight?

Wordsmith said:


Target identified as Hideauze. Enemy. Zenmetsu.

They don't program their AI's to suddenly feel for the enemy.


About this episode.... I could stuffed dynamite into both my ears and my mind wouldn't be as blown as it is now. And seeing dem "Evolvers" slowly turn into hideous monsters left a very unpleasant feeling in my tummy. Not only because they are all mutaed space spquids now, but because it means the whole war was, once again, humanity against itself.

leeo268 said:
Meh, they shared common ancestor with human, but they are not human.
I mean we human wipe out all our cousin species many thousands years ago to survive. Won't surprise me if we did it again, but I would have expected the Hidezu to win overwhelming with their genetic advantage. I guess they fail because they abandon their technology to become more zerg like.

uniquelyme91 said:
Well it makes sense now why the "enemies" are called Hideauze sounding like hideous because that's what a group of people who hate evolvers call them. To them they are hideous because they are no longer completely human. Which now is pretty ironic since now they are the hideous people who kill their own because they are not "good" enough. I guess the irony is really who are the hideous people, the people who look "hideous" or the people who kill them because they are different.

Takuan_Soho said:

Not sure about this whole concept: if humanity is intelligent enough to create wormholes and perform genetic manipulation to this degree, couldn't they have built some sort of satellite array to channel more sunlight to Earth, preventing the ice age? Yes, I know this would require extreme science, but more so than wormhole technology? And the design of these "space humans", who thought that was a good idea? Cautionary tale on human cloning and genetic manipulation. Can't argue with that, science isn't always on the side of good or particularly wise.

Monad said:

Well to be fair to the Galactic empire when it started the war was something like a world nations coalition and they had a point. Those scientist created their own small nation where they felt free to make every twisted experiment they thought without any respect to international laws about limits of what you should and shouldn't do.
Transforming humans into huge space breathing monsters isn't exactly a very logical way of using their science.
They have some legitimacy to attack them but i guess after that they just fought and fought and where it all started kind of got lost.

neontaster said:


How about you spoiler that post since it's a pretty big deal? Jesus Christ. It's not that hard to say to yourself: "Hmmm... If someone hadn't watched that show then maybe they don't want to know this right now."

Show some courtesy to other people. This isn't your private message board.

el_putazo said:



But yeah I'm an "a$$hole" alright...

@neontaster, slow your roll guy/girl...
OK so I made a mistake... my bad.

el_putazo said:
How did I spoil it?


But yeah I'm an "a$$hole" alright...

@neontaster, slow your roll guy/girl...
OK so I made a mistake... my bad.

el_putazo said:
I get it honest mistake.
My bad, didn't mean to do that...

I've been burned before so I know that feeling...
Again, honest mistake didn't mean to offend you guys.

neontaster said:


OK cool. I only got mad because it's a topic I care a lot about. Thanks for adding spoiler tags.

el_putazo said:
Well It Is a pretty good show.

Darklight0303 said:


They're not anymore. They don't talk. They bite and eat. They stopped being human ages ago.

DawnJ said:


I wish it had 24 ep... It would have been much more enjoyable with more foreshadowing/drama/Ledo growing-up scenes.

Gan_HOPE326 said:
Why is everyone saying the Hideauze aren't sentient?

Fai said:

Evolvers wanted to preserve humanity via forced evolution/gene manipulation.
Continental Alliance wanted to retain "PURE" humanity (sounds familiar? yeah it should, that's logic right out of Hitler's handbook) and lo and behold thousands of years latter Alliance is full of white haired purple eyed perfect condition ubermensch(clearly a parallel to Hitler's blond blue eyed "perfect german citizen" idea) living in an utilitarian sparta-like military regime , treating another species as "inferior" and justifying the was with the said species via saying they are inferior.

Fai said:

Humans were leaving to EXPAND, by the time Hideauze would reach outside solar system, the glorious master-race woul dbe already prepared to "cleanse" them just like they tried before.

So Hideauze chose to hitch a ride and continue the war on equal conditions instead of giving tactical and territorial advantage to the enemy and staying behind in what essentially is concentration camp.

So while the REASONS behind actions of both are very understandable and survival-based, both side sof humanity were thinking in same conquest logic that dominated the world during the discovery of New World.

Had Continental Alliance NOT had a HUGE hard-on on eradicated the "impure", the both species most likely would just went into different sides of space and coexisted - the term which Alliance erased from their vocabulary.

Fai said:

Alliance never HAD a way - they fired the first shots out of hatred against differently-looking part of humanity, they started the whole mess and they kept it up.

AS for devolution - insufficient data to tell - its quite clear that no one in the "glorious master race" would even bother on EVEN TRYING to communicate.

Hell I am convinced that "Avalon" is not even real - and the soldiers sent to Avalon are simply disposed of.



I am sorry but not the law bullshit again - disobeying laws is not a justification for a genocide, NOTHING IS.

Ncrdrg said:
As for the de-evolution. I think the evidence is there. When they're younger, they seem more intelligent, more capable of independent thought, they seem to communicate. But as they mature, they turn into whalesquids, become of a hive mind and lose all ability to communicate as their bestial instincts take over. Their reactions so far points towards that.