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| Melodrama over a simple school movie project? What's the point if one could have asked Hongou? I think this episode lays bare the central conflict over this arc: the importance of intentions. Let me explain. Irisu convinces Houtarou to solve this mystery because he is the best detective in the school. Houtarou is tricked into believing Irisu chose him because he can best solve this dilemma class 2F is in. Irisu never lies; after all, Houtarou is probably the best person to solve this mystery. Houtarou solves this mystery using the facts given to him (i.e. the movie). Now, when Houtarou gets angry, it's because he realizes that these were never Irisu's intentions. Irisu led him to believe that her intentions were for him to solve the script, when in fact, she wanted someone to write a better script. Why? Because she wanted the movie to be a success, she put the success of the movie over the intentions of the scriptwriter, Hongou. Now, as an analogy, imagine a politician preaching to a community about the virtues of donating their services. Upon hearing the speech, one would come under the impression that the politician is a kindly and generous fellow. What if the politician just spoke as such because he wanted your support in the upcoming elections. We are led to believe that the politician cares about each one of us, when in fact, the politician only sees each person as a possible vote. Now, who would not be raging when they find out the true intentions of the politician. What the remaining members of the Classics Club push Houtarou to realize is the importance of Hongou's intentions over the correct solution to the script. This is what brings Houtarou to realize Irisu's real intentions. No wonder Houtarou feels unspeakable rage over not only how she misled him in his belief of her true intentions but also how she played with his emotions during the process. Irisu, on the other hand, doesn't really care that she bullshit Houtarou. With a task ahead of her, she did everything she can to produce the best results. The chat between Irisu and Houtarou's sister is enlightening for this very reason. Irisu finally seems to have realized how contradictory her actions her. The point of the school movie project was really for everyone to have a good time. By believing that the point was for the movie to be a success, she failed to achieve the true goal. Everything comes to bit her back. Hence, the final phrase of each episode of this arc makes sense. Why didn't she ask Eba? Irisu didn't wish to reveal her true, but incorrect, intentions. In hindsight, it makes sense she should have revealed them to Eba, the one closest to Hongou (if not Hongou). Therefore, Irisu would have realized that the success of the movie comes second to the happiness of her classmates and would have never had to pursue her intentions using bullshit. This arc and the first both seem to repeatedly hit Hyouka's central theme: discovering intentions. In the first arc, we find out Chitanda's uncle's true intentions; in this arc, Hongou's true intentions. In both arcs, the victims are portrayed as unlucky heroes because of the manipulation of intentions. For those interested, I am using Harry Frankfurt definition of bullshit in his book, "On Bullshit." |
s2012k1993Jul 1, 2012 11:15 PM
| really didnt like how the crew kept telling off houtarou about how his theory was wrong, despite the fact that he had to think of the most logical ending by himself... (and a damn good ending at that) also surprising revelation when Irisu was the one who caused hongou's "illness" and trying to figure out the ending of the movie turning into a mystery by itself the chat log with "senpai" also confused me... so that was houtarou's sister who set him up using Irisu??? |
 <img src="http://i47.tinypic.com/2mw85l2.jpg" /> |
| Na i think the reason for the others being so hard on him is just "tough love?" or either a sense of motivation, since they did try to sugarcoat it abit by telling him its was a wonderful ending and kind of harshly telling him what was wrong, but I guess the main reason why is that they just had high expectations of him, thinking that because of who he is (conserve energy guy), they probably wanted him to feel some sort of regret in order to for him to act upon it instead of leaving it thinking it was to much of a hassle. But as others mentioned it wasn't his fault so the others didn't know. Nevertheless it was a great conclusion and luved seeing Oreki from another perspective from his usual persona :3 |
| I feel bad for Houtarou. (I saw this line everywhere in this thread) Yes. I feel bad for him. In the end, the rope is nothing because Kounosu can't use the right wing of the building if Kaitou died. That means Houtarou's deduction made perfect sense and also served as interesting plot. He might really have forgotten about the rope, but the film had already strayed from Hongou's original script making the rope trick invalid. In other words, contradiction in mystery. How can people expect him to deduce Hongou's thought given the false film? I think Houtarou did excellently, even found out what is in Hongou's and Irisu's mind. For other people. Irisu: I'm so damn disappointed. Mayaka: She pointed out about the rope, but I don't think she was harsh on him. Actually she did feel bad for him working alone too. Satoshi: Why so serious, man? Eru: Put in a lot of works to support Houtarou in her own way this time. Good job. |
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| Indeed.. too dramatic, i still don't know why they decided to animate SO WELL this novel since it lacks action and they're overreacting with so little.. I think this should be more like a slice of life since the big "problems" aren't really a big deal for most of the characters.. or shouldn't be O_O.. |
| . . . y o u f o u n d m e ♥ : icon's credit : |
| ive never seen Oreki lose his cool like that but one can understand, no one like being use, This episode did a complete 360, everthing one was told, turn out to be not true in a sense. O well, on to the next one (no pun intended) and Oreki is The Strength, alway ending up in one of Chi-chan adventures Chi-Chan is The Foo,l For more reason then one |
HydnlifeJul 2, 2012 1:41 AM
| Hmmm... Good episode But it's a bit too dramatic |
Oreki was wrong,but in the end he discovered the truth and saved the day. Great episode like always. |
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| Nice arc, it was well done and the twist about this episode was pretty innovative. |
| Yesssssssssss,the girl I thought was the one who would do it if they chose that script. |
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| i'm so so soooooo curious about that 'senpai' Irisu was chatting with |
| The overly dramatic argument: While yes I also thought it was a bit heavy, there needs to be some perspective. Remember this is Japanese culture. They are prone to extremes. They take things WAY seriously compared to western culture. This is culture of "gan batte" and "responsibility". In Episode #8, Oreki even discusses not wanting to "take responsibility". It's because when you get involved in something in Japan you always need to go ALL OUT on it. And if you mess it up you could end up blacklisted by it. It's a very perfectionist culture. Heck, it's not uncommon to see school kids practicing graduation ceremonies for hours every day for a month before the actual event. With that out of the way, Wrecking Oreki and two-faced Irisu: Damn, was everyone busting on Oreki. Talk about kicking him when he's already down. I do think that Oreki does deserve some blame. It's out of character for him to lie or make excuses. I think Ibara and Satoshi knew it and were a bit disappointed by it. But I think they both were also blaming themselves for not sticking by Oreki when he was saddled with the problem by himself, cause they all had other commitments and Eri was recovering from a drunken stupor. I had this gut feeling that Irisu was setting up to be the villain in the arc. We all got played by her, including Oreki. She is quite charming and manipulative. Satoshi warned us that she had a reputation of using people as pawns. Sadly, this all came to fruition in this arc. She indeed used Oreki and the Classics club to solve her dilemma. On top of it, she lied to them the entire way. I know Yumekichi11 had it bad for Irisu. I haven't seen him post on this episode yet; so I figure he still might be raging at how her character got fleshed out by the authors. I feel his pain; I wanted to like her as well. In the end. I think we all were fooled because we didn't stop to realize that the movie scene itself wasn't what Hongou wanted. On top of it, Hongou was getting sabotaged because everyone thought her script was boring, including Irisu. I think the only way Irisu could redeem herself now is if she flat out apologizes to those she wronged publicly. I'm talking down on the knees "face losing" type apology. Since doing that would be an incredibly damaging thing to a young woman in her social position. At least find a way to make things right. Cause not only did she burn a few bridges she also may have lost a friend and mentor. The movie mystery: So, I got the part about Yuri climbing down to a reception room and attacking Saitou part right. The problem is props guy and the cast sabotaged it and made Saitou "dead" with a decapitated arm in a locked room so Hongou couldn't fix her script. What Hongou wanted a script to be about a violent lovers spat that both victim and attacker would deny so that the other group and audience would have to figure it out using clues. Essentially the movie was setting up to be a disaster. Because everyone didn't like Hongou's ideas and were doing their own thing. I think it was understandable for Irisu who was stuck with the mess to need help desperately. Irisu's problem is how she went about handling it. The arc title "why didn't they ask EBA?" was the big clue. The clue that what Irisu was telling them was bullshit. That even if Hongou was on her deathbed she could be asked for the details by her close friend EBA, and they wouldn't need to involve other groups. Oreki was being setup to fail from the onset. He could never solve the mystery given that he was lied to about the reasons behind him being asked to help with the project. He was under the premise that Hongou couldn't finish the script due to her health. The reality was that Hongou couldn't finish the script cause her script wasn't being followed. Irisu didn't want him to solve the Hongou's mystery. She wanted him to make a new and better script which he unwittingly gave her. In the end, the movie was something that the masses would consider "interesting". Overall: Actually in the end it turned out really good. We got sucked into thinking solely about the clues as it pertained to the movie; when it reality, we were being served clues as to why Hongou needed help and the faults in the movie project. It was a multilayer mystery. The TRUE mystery is the reason why Irisu was involving the Classics Club in the first place. The movie itself was the secondary mystery. While I knew there was shenanigans involved, I really didn't think about it to THAT extent and realize that without solving the Hongou/Irisu riddle, you couldn't solve the movie one. Once Oreki figured out that he needed to change his way of thinking about the script. He solved the original Hongou script mystery quite easily. Still it sucks how irisu's character played out. They really made her into a horrible villain. I do hope they salvage her character. But at this point i doubt it. Mystery chatter Hekshi_Sekshi said: i'm so so soooooo curious about that 'senpai' Irisu was chatting with I'm still surprised people ask who the orange text "atashi" person is when it's actually the easiest mystery to solve. - he/she is "halfway around the world" - he/she knows Oreki very well and also about the classics club. - he/she is Irisu's "senpai" so she is older than Irisu and went to the same school. most likely graduated since she's abroad. You figured it out?! it's obvious the only person it can possibly be is Oreki's sister. Irisu is the blue text. The green text is Hongou. |
CirrisJul 2, 2012 11:18 AM
| WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT SHOW, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!! I love Hyouka. If not for my philosophy to wait with 10s until watching the whole thing, I'd give it the Masterpiece rating right here and now. This arc was brilliant. Can't say anything more without spending the whole day on it. |
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| They all laugh at him behind his back. This anime is actually about how a guy was bullied through his high school days by people he thought were his friends. |
| First part was hillarious - as everyone was going to tell him he's wrong. I liked it, maybe that will allow him to drop his delusions of grandeur and start acting by himself, not being used by everyone around (starting from his sister). well maybe he will even gain some personality? |
Dalek-bakaJul 2, 2012 5:52 AM
| This episode was extremely clever also quite different from the past with drama, mystery and rage acted in a way I haven't seen Oreki before Also the parts with Irisu were great The theories that kept coming up, Woa! |
| Mayaka has leveled up in my book with her really considerate attitude at the beginning and nice catch. It was painful to watch Horeki's coolness shatter because of his failure. Chitanda handled the moment where she expressed her thoughts about the case beautifully though. The rest was pretty depressing. Overall it wasn't as striking but still a good closure to the issue. |
| And slowly, you come to realize... It's all as it should be... |
| Lol this is like irrelevant to the ep but me and my friend were talking an we thought wouldn't it have been a good plot twist if... why did i even post this =_=" but yep OREKI PISSED OFF WAS JUST...WOAHH!! but if woudve of fucking stabbed her in the face if it were me, i feel like after this, Oreki isn't even gonna bother anymore, he won't want to solve another mystery because of what happened and being used. I feel so bad for him ughhh |
kuroria098Jul 2, 2012 6:33 AM
| Well that was entertaining !! |
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| I can't believe they are spending so many episodes on this lousy mystery movie. |
| A bit much drama, but dang, Hyouka proves once again that it is a clever mystery show. Completely changed my perspective (hoho). |
I have my own anime blog. It's called Anime Viking. Hope you'll you read it! |
Helpme said: s2012k1993 said: Unspeakable rage? One might expect that from an emo teenager, but Hotaru has been portrayed as lazy. Is this character development? I hope not, anime is in no need of that.No wonder Houtarou feels unspeakable rage over not only how she misled him in his belief of her true intentions but also how she played with his emotions during the process. Houtarou, initially, was portrayed as lazy, but the anime has clearly shown that he has changed. His change is especially marked by Satoshi's description of him as Strength. Remember the quote from the book about Strength: the kind woman leads the lion, or something along those lines. Well, Houtarou considers all three--his sister, Chitanda and Irisu--as the kind women. Whereas his sister and Chitanda never mislead him with their intentions, Irisu clearly does. Refer to the politician example, I used before. It shows Houtarou as a human being, who clearly is willing to take measures to correct his wrongs even at the expense of his laziness. Helpme said: s2012k1993 said: That's outlandish. Hyouka is a fictional work, and there is no reason to belive the author shares your unusual metaphysical beliefs. So expecting them as character motivations makes no sense.the true goal. If you have read the complete paragraph, you would have realized that by true goal, I meant Hongou's wish: Everyone has a good time completing the movie project. It is this that makes Irisu's endeavor so pitiful. If she had asked Eba, she would have realized that her goal, movie success, should have come second to the true goal, happiness of students. It's because she doesn't ask Eba, she takes this huge detour that leaves her with regret. |
| I knew it! The trick wasn't really about the movie, but understanding what was up with Hongou! And me and Chitanda were on the same page the whole time O_O Also, I prefer it when characters don't die as well~ |
| I would be real tough on myself and depressed when everyone is saying youve failed after a black haired beauty was urging you on saying youve got talent and stuff so its understandable. Absolutely great that Houtaro showed some anger, if you didnt like that part then just think of it as him acting out on behalf of all the people that have been mindlessly used by pretty girls But the obvious best part was when Irisu was left hanging right at the end :) That felt like a cool breeze on a hot summers day for me |
Helpme said: KaitoDash said: In the end, the rope is nothing because Kounosu can't use the right wing of the building if Kaitou died. I don't see how. The windows do not become closed because of a death. The window was not closed but the path from that window to Kaitou's room was unusable. Hongou's trick mentioned that Kaitou locked the door himself. So it was possible to climb down to him using that path and let him lock himself. But in the movie, Kaitou was killed in that room, thus the locked room that he couldn't possibly lock it himself. The door was locked means the path to that door was unusable, thus no meaning in climbing the rope down there and no meaning of the rope. This is why I said Houtarou's deduction last episode was legit, because there is no meaning to the rope as long as the film scene is concerned. In another viewpoint, I can say that Houtarou was given false clues by the film that is not faithful to Hongou's written. And on top of that, to think that he'd be able to find out the film not being faithful is very much commendable. He has went beyond great detective. |
KaitoDashJul 2, 2012 9:24 AM
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KaitoDash said: Helpme said: KaitoDash said: In the end, the rope is nothing because Kounosu can't use the right wing of the building if Kaitou died. I don't see how. The windows do not become closed because of a death. The window was not closed but the path from that window to Kaitou's room was unusable. Hongou's trick mentioned that Kaitou locked the door himself. So it was possible to climb down to him using that path and let him lock himself. But in the movie, Kaitou was killed in that room, thus the locked room that he couldn't possibly lock it himself. The door was locked means the path to that door was unusable, thus no meaning in climbing the rope down there and no meaning of the rope. This is why I said Houtarou's deduction last episode was legit, because there is no meaning to the rope as long as the film scene is concerned. In another viewpoint, I can say that Houtarou was given false clues by the film that is not faithful to Hongou's written. And on top of that, to think that he'd be able to find out the film not being faithful is very much commendable. He has went beyond great detective. yet, he ignored the most important mystery that was in front of him the whole time. So, can you call him a great detective really? |
| I really disliked this episode. There was way too much drama, everyone seemed to blame the poor Oreki, and eveything for just a stupid movie. I'm glad this mystery is over. |
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Cirris said: In the end. I think we all were fooled because we didn't stop to realize that the movie scene itself wasn't what Hongou wanted. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=451053&show=60#msg15271669 I never bothered to spend time trying to solve the movie. |
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Cratex said: Cirris said: In the end. I think we all were fooled because we didn't stop to realize that the movie scene itself wasn't what Hongou wanted. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=451053&show=60#msg15271669 I never bothered to spend time trying to solve the movie. I also was always trying to figure out what was up with Hongou. So, I wasn't fooled : P |
vampko said: yet, he ignored the most important mystery that was in front of him the whole time. So, can you call him a great detective really? That's why he had to change his perspective, right? I honestly think it was unfair towards him. He was given false clues for Film mystery to solve Hongou's novel mystery, which are two different mysteries. So to say, given clues for one mystery to solve another. That's just absurd. I disagree that he ignored Hongou's mystery, rather he mixed the two mysteries up. And expecting him to separate them is going too far when he was told that the film was filmed according to Hongou's writings. Anyone would believe that the two would be consistent and have the same contents. |
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| One of the best episodes. It was great to see Houtarou lose his cool, I felt terrible for him in this episode... he finally boosts up his confidence, starts believing in himself, and then it turns out he was completely off and was played. Also, raged every time Irisu showed up on screen. Stupid bitch. |
| The person who wrote orange letters （あ・た・し♪）is Hotaro's elder sister. あたし means “I” , but only women use in Japanese. And あたし is not polite. It is not used for seniors. |
| This was so fucking retarded. Getting worked up over fucking nothing and just when I thought this show was getting better. |
Helpme said: You and Hotaru do make for a "we", but I think most found it blatant, and, if you look at earlier threads, people are taking it for granted and just discussing if this makes Fuyumi a bad person. I meant all "us" neophyte sleuths that have been posting theories for the past few episodes. Helpme said: Sorry, your right i was zoning out, i fixed it and added some. Helpme said: Well said. I'm also surprised. There is even one more clue, but you must know a bit of Japanese; "atashi" and other terms used by this person is female language, so it shouldn't be a male character. Yeah, I knew that. But for some reason I was zoning out at the end and was too focused on keeping the clues gender neutral while forgetting "atashi" itself is a female gender word in Japanese. vampko said: Cratex said: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=451053&show=60#msg15271669 I never bothered to spend time trying to solve the movie. I also was always trying to figure out what was up with Hongou. So, I wasn't fooled : P well you guys are special :P vampko said: KaitoDash said: Helpme said: KaitoDash said: In the end, the rope is nothing because Kounosu can't use the right wing of the building if Kaitou died. I don't see how. The windows do not become closed because of a death. The window was not closed but the path from that window to Kaitou's room was unusable. Hongou's trick mentioned that Kaitou locked the door himself. So it was possible to climb down to him using that path and let him lock himself. But in the movie, Kaitou was killed in that room, thus the locked room that he couldn't possibly lock it himself. The door was locked means the path to that door was unusable, thus no meaning in climbing the rope down there and no meaning of the rope. This is why I said Houtarou's deduction last episode was legit, because there is no meaning to the rope as long as the film scene is concerned. In another viewpoint, I can say that Houtarou was given false clues by the film that is not faithful to Hongou's written. And on top of that, to think that he'd be able to find out the film not being faithful is very much commendable. He has went beyond great detective. yet, he ignored the most important mystery that was in front of him the whole time. So, can you call him a great detective really? Actually it is possible for the movie scene to work with the rope. The killer just had to switch keys after they killed Kaitou and lock Kaitou in the room. Since the master key was used to open the door, unless someone double checked the key left at Kaitou's arm, no one would know the difference. The killer already opened the door to the room they used to climb down. So they wouldn't need their original key again. On top of that, To solve the riddle the "smoking gun clue" would be to find the person who has Kaitou's key. Which would make for an interesting reveal. |
CirrisJul 2, 2012 11:58 AM
| i think the mystery part of the movie is why he would forgive her |
 Guts, known as the Black Swordsman, seeks sanctuary from the demonic forces attracted to him and his woman because of a demonic mark on their necks, and also vengeance against the man who branded him as an unholy sacrifice. Aided only by his titanic strength gained from a harsh childhood lived with mercenaries, a gigantic sword, and an iron prosthetic left hand, Guts must struggle against his bleak destiny, all the while fighting with a rage that might strip him of his humanity. |
| I wanted to slap the others for how they spoke to Oreki at the beginning. >__> They are relying on him way too much, and right after he decides to really put his heart into the case they just crush him down because he made a mistake. He was so gloomy in this episode, i felt bad for him. I hope Oreki shows some reaction to their rebuttals in the next episode. Everything from this can't just be ignored, it was too much drama. |
| I like this. The mystery is much deeper than just solving the story itself. There's also the matter of Hongou. Hotarou got really worked up in the second half. Fuyumi was being very sneaky. She didn't like the script from the start and just made them make a new one by "resolving the mystery". It was so curious that they didn't just ask Hongou what she wanted even though she was "sick". This explains it. |
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s2012k1993 said: This arc and the first both seem to repeatedly hit Hyouka's central theme: discovering intentions. In the first arc, we find out Chitanda's uncle's true intentions; in this arc, Hongou's true intentions. In both arcs, the victims are portrayed as unlucky heroes because of the manipulation of intentions. Quite interesting thesis and by far more plausible than just "solving pointless everday mysteries" or most of the other theories I read in other threads about Hyouka. I'll keep that aspect in mind and am eager to find out if this holds up or is made invalid right away on the next episode or so. :) |
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| interesting arc... but im ready for the next one :) |
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| "Why didn't she ask EBA ?" At least this question was answered in the episode. |
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