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Ani-Blast said: I guess they're in the same universe, but not necessarily am I going to understand anything better seeing that as well? No, and no. In before "they're both from the nasuverse so it's the same universe, they just can't be in the same worlds". Heard this shit enough times, since this guy is most likely meaning the same place/world/whatever, saying no to universe is the easiest response. |
Sobzob said: In before "they're both from the nasuverse so it's the same universe, they just can't be in the same worlds". Heard this shit enough times, since this guy is most likely meaning the same place/world/whatever, saying no to universe is the easiest response. Huh, really? I assumed that they were definitely the same universe, given that Touko is Aoko's sister... How does that work? :\ |
naikou said: Sobzob said: In before "they're both from the nasuverse so it's the same universe, they just can't be in the same worlds". Heard this shit enough times, since this guy is most likely meaning the same place/world/whatever, saying no to universe is the easiest response. Huh, really? I assumed that they were definitely the same universe, given that Touko is Aoko's sister... How does that work? : That rec may have been mine :/ As far as my knowledge goes, they do all take place in the same universe (nasuverse), but they all happen in parallel worlds the same way as each different route of FSN or Tsukihime each take place in parallel words separate from each other. So for example there is a world where Ryougi obtained her eyes but there's also a parallel word to that one where Tohno obtained the same ability. So with Aoko and Touko as sisters, it is still relevant for that world since in that reality they are sisters, but there could very well be a parallel world where they are not sisters since there is an infinite number of parallel worlds. I believe that is the way it was interpreted and that's what Sobzob meant... if not, please let me know. |
KetuekigamiMar 23, 2009 4:47 PM
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| I think 'multiverse' might be the magic word here. |
| whoa.. feels like i'm entering a type-moon chamber of knowledge discussion board can't wait till boukyaku roukuon subs~ |
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Scud said: It was a good film, but I'm really not seeing how it managed to get in 1st place. It wasn't THAT good. |
Would you really not care if she was a guy? Yes. And not only that, I really miss guy Shiki. And that girl who said "gross" is annoying.:x |
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| Sexy Shiki is sexy. And judging from the preview, I assume the next movie is the 'moe' one mentioned in one of the interviews? |
ukonkivi said: And that girl who said "gross" is annoying.:x How can you call Azaka annoying you... you... |
| Next movie will be about the fairies, entering the yousei realm, kinda interesting.. As for this one.. Honestly, I hated Tomoe thinking that he was some sort of nutcase at the beginning, yet by the anime of the anime.. It brought tears to my eyes, I mistakened him but anyone would have thought the same, considering the circumstances.. Shiki and Kokutou isn't going to be do much in this series, I guess... |
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Kira01 said: Shiki and Kokutou isn't going to be do much in this series, I guess... Fascinating. Now where have I seen and heard this story before? |
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Kira01 said: And that's why Azaka is annoying. I relate to Kokutou. And while cheerfulness is nice in any gender(cheerfulness is not a girlish thing, is it?), I would really miss it if Shiki stopped acting guyish. So I hope she keeps imitating male Shiki and that the and the guyish sort of behavior doesn't go away. Eh, this is why I like Shinto better better than Taoism. It promotes heteronormativity moreso than Shinto. |
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| Finally watched it. And, as good as it was, I just don't think it deserves anywhere near first place. I honestly got bored at parts. I mean bored to the point where I would tab out of the movie and do other things before I gathered up the patience to continue. There were plenty of good parts, but unfortunately those were spread sparsely throughout the 2 hour long experience. |
| All the mods fucking blow on this website except Kaiserpingvin, Cloudy-Sky, Baman and aero. PM me if you're actually good and I left you out. Oh, rule 8... (￣ー￣) |
| Fascinating. i start to wonder how this has one of the highest ratings. But nonetheless 10 because of Shiki. |
| One of the best films ever yet again. I hate to live in that complex apartment. T_T Edit: That was awesome. I finished the rest since megavideo had a darn time limit. The action was so great, and the memories were awesome too. I felt like I was going to get sucked in. |
BlackAssassinMay 29, 2009 12:57 PM
| Alright. Ive just finished this film and as impressed as I was with the directing of the show. I have ZERO problems with the flash backs and flash forwards/timeline or however you say it, but there were bits of the storyline I dont understand. Mainly surrounding that of Araya. What was his goal in attempting to create the complex and have one side that replays the death from morning to night? Also what was the reason to capture Shiki? I know he wanted to find obtain her eyes, but what for? How do these add up? To be perfectly honest the storyline lost me, when he mentioned something about obtaining the humans origins and all that. Help would be appreciated. |
ZelnagaJun 7, 2009 10:13 AM
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Zelnaga said: What was his goal in attempting to create the complex and have one side that replays the death from morning to night? Also what was the reason to capture Shiki? I know he wanted to find obtain her eyes, but what for? How do these add up? To be perfectly honest the storyline lost me, when he mentioned something about obtaining the humans origins and all that. All this should be fairly easy to pick up if you rewatch the movie. The Complex was an experiment to see if they could reach different deaths after dying thousands of times. To put it simple, he captured Shiki so that he could use the death perception to reach the origin. |
cyruz said: That was really amazing. Funny how my hopes for a good ending were crushed and re-established twice throughout the entire movie. The fight scenes were indeed absolutely great and quite breathtaking. The music was as amazing as ever, but I feel the less important backgrounds lacked detail compared to the previous movies. Loved how the movie kept messing with your mind the entire time though. So yeah, first Rakkyo 10/10. I'm probably going to raise my rating for either Tsuukaku Zanryuu or Garan no Dou as well.   This was absolutely adorable, too. |
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Zelnaga said: To be perfectly honest the storyline lost me, when he mentioned something about obtaining the humans origins and all that. Help would be appreciated. I feel the same.... I'm slightly lost now..... |
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MRLX69 said: Zelnaga said: To be perfectly honest the storyline lost me, when he mentioned something about obtaining the humans origins and all that. Help would be appreciated. I feel the same.... I'm slightly lost now..... A few things will be more apparent if you re watch it. But i guess an important fact is this: The origin is a source of infinite mana and with it anything is possible (It plays a role in the overall story of Fate/Stay Night as the reason why the grail can do what it does). Araya's goal was to reach the origin to accomplish what was explained too you in the movie and Shiki's eyes have a direct connection to the origin, which is why he needed to take over her body. That should help at least a little. |
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| Loved the theologies and theories of this Paradox Spiral. The movie was great and Shiki is so moe in this chapter. The only Rakkyo movie I'll give 10. :D |
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| This movie has been my favorite so far! And TOUKO IS JUST FREAKISHLY EPIC IN THIS MOVIE!!! <3!!! |
| The 5th movie was the best out of all the others I've seen so far in my opinion. It's really hard for me to be critical of anything that I saw. Up until recently, I actually never heard of Kara no Kyoukai until a friend of mine recommended it to me about a little over a week ago. I wasn't really a fan of this until I saw the 5th movie, which pretty much left an amazing impression on me. I thought it was so good, I rated it a 10, and already put this movie in my favorites section. I also made a Kara no Kyoukai AMV shortly afterwards too ^^ I think that this is a great anime overall, and now I can't seem to get enough of it =P |
AtomicNerdJul 21, 2009 1:14 AM
 "The moment man devoured the fruit of knowledge, he sealed his fate... Entrusting his future to the cards, man clings to a dim hope." -Nyx Avatar |
| awesome movie is awesome.... the scene with the "zombies" was the best fighting scene i've seen so far in animes, i had to watch it twice just to see what she was actually doing, not to mention the story twists... and shiki in the last scene, so adorable <3 |
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| So this is the way to make a show unnessesary complicated, it felt like endless 8 at some point. Enjou Tomoe looked like the guy from Fate stay night as well as the black haired Magus. You can't believe how mad I was as I thought they really killed Tokou this way I dont knew If I should cry or puke The end was then conciliable for me 7/10 |
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| Woah, I realise I've seen this movie a long time ago now and haven't posted here. Very good movie this one. 5/5 Definitely not lame like the other KnK movies. |
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| My mind was fucked but I liked it. |
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| Freaking..epicccccccccccccccccccccccccc. |
| What exactly is this 'counterforce' they keep talking about? I think it's one of the things I clearly don't understand (unless I read it up) that was introduced in this movie that's keeping me from saying "masterpiece" or those sort of comments. I guess I'll google it. And I find that this... non-chronological style of directing is really diminishing the potential enjoyment I could of have with the series. It probably excite a lot of other viewers, but I find it much better if the story was chronological. Guess I'm just too lazy to piece out the segmented plots together or too dumb to figure out the events unless I read something later. Times like these I wish I could have read the novels first before getting with the adapted materials. I'd feel though that if the movies were in order or if I've read the novels before, then I probably could have enjoyed a bit, if not a lot, more, but enough of ifs and probablys. Overall, I'd say that without any foreknowledge of the series' adapted material, each episode left me a sort of confusion, with answers only told like maybe 2 or 3 movies after, in which I've kind of already forgot initially why I was confused about. Now I probably could have rewatched to refresh my memory or written it down, but that shouldn't be necessary, and I guess I would be too lazy for it anyhow, since I've never done it to any other series before. So, I guess, the style just wasn't for me. Last thing, personally, I would rate the KnK series as a series, and not a bunch of individual films, like giving it a different rating for each movie. Since each movie just happens to have some things missing that would make me wonder, "wait, what?" which is hardly fair for me to rate one movie a 7 but the other a 10 or a 9. |
TachiiAug 26, 2009 2:23 PM
| Definitely enjoyed this movie the series gets better with each one. Touko really surprised, she went from lame to awesome in the span of two hours. As for the people complaining about the unrealistic nature of the series, it does not bother me. Even if something is unrealistic in our world, it's cool as long as it makes since in the character's world. I really did think Touko bit the dust, and I was pleasantly surprised by her return. Shiki proved once again how badass she is. Yet, even though I did enjoy this one the most out of the Kara no Kyoukai movies, I still have to give it 8/10. I don't find the characters engaging and Shiki's return, though cool, wasn't explained as well as I would have hopped.In fact her character was pretty much deus ex machina with the way they handled her in the end. Still, a good movie and series overall. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Honestly, I had no idea what the hell was going on half the time. Maybe this is why I thought this was the worst KnK movie so far. Counter force? Tajit whatever? Yin and Yang? What were all those bottles? Why's that guy part of the building? O_O . cbf rewatching gonna look for a summary lol |
Nick_xD said: Honestly, I had no idea what the hell was going on half the time. Maybe this is why I thought this was the worst KnK movie so far. Counter force? Tajit whatever? Yin and Yang? What were all those bottles? Why's that guy part of the building? O_O . cbf rewatching gonna look for a summary lol indeed it was pretty confusing and hard to follow, still as a whole it was pretty good, but I'd say 6th place on MAL is a bit too much, especially when I found the 3th movie better. |
aswani said: 3th lolI'd say 6th place on MAL is a bit too much, especially when I found the 3th movie better. |
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| I'm in agreement with some of the thoughts of those on this page. After just finishing watching it, I'm left unsure if it was a great film I just saw or a good film presented in the most confusing way possible. Following the first thirty minutes, every minute or so the plot kept jumping about, from past to present, making it hard to understand what the hell was going on. Most things fell into place by the time the plot stopped jumping around, but not everything, the terminoligy used not helping (for example, the "counter-force" thing lost me). If Enjou was a puppet, how did he manage to esccape? He was made to fill a role and no more. And his brain was connected to the building for the illusion to work.. wasn't it? Even more confusing, there was another puppet still playing his role, despite the real him being dead and him - the puppet - having left. Also, why did Shiki help him at the start, and how did Araya plan this in advance - knowing she'd save him - and manipulate his feelings? Why did Araya have the 'villains' of movies one and three make trouble (still not sure what he did to the third's 'villain' exactly). I remember something being said about it being done to prevent the "counter-force" kicking in.. which made no sense whatsoever to me. What, exactly, did Araya plan to do with Shiki to reach the origin of all, how did the apartment complex come into his plan and did Shiki use plot no justu/deus ex machina to beat Araya 'inside himself' at the end? .......I think I prefer the third movie. It was far easier to understand and more emotionally involving, Fujino having had a lot of awful things happen to her and, even though she was Shiki's enemy in the film, I felt for her. |
| @ Aionic I have seen this movie twice (3 hours of full immersion the second time i watched it), but there are still a few pieces i do not understand. Still, i will try to answer your questions. Please, forgive me for my poor english. This is my own interpretation of the plot, so please forgive me if there are flaws. 1) Enjou did manage to escape because the complex had too many flaws when it was built, even if the building itself (a sort of being, linked with Araya's body) was able to hide its mysteries from who were outside and who tried to go in (e.g. the elevator). You have to remember that a few months have passed since Enjou's escape. During this time Araya and Alba were able to deal with these flaws. Also, Araja did not foresee Enjou's escape (Spiral Paradox), but he decided to use him to his advantage. Since his project to discover the origin (the building was a small scale world, full of the typical ugliness and brutality of mankind, the thing Araya hated the most and that led him to look for the origin to destroy the real world) led him nowhere, he decided to subdue the villains to obtain Shiki's body and her Mystical Eyes of Death Perception (Shiki can see flaws and so control death. To control death means to know what death is and so the meaning of the world = spiral of origin). Since the villains were unable to deal with Shiki, here it comes Enjou's escape. Araja used Enjou to lead Shiki to the Complex so he could easly take control of her body (remember Building=Araya's Body. Araya wanted to transplant his brain into Shiki's body). There are two Enjou puppets because one escaped and the other one was built by Alba probably so the experiment held in the building could go on. Shiki helped Enjou because, when she touched his stomach after saving him, she understood he was not a real murderer but a puppet, even if Enjou was sure he had killed his parents. Well Araya is a Magus. If he could discover the meaning of the world, he can surely manipulate people's feeling. However, i think Enjou's feeling became real in the end. 2) I have tried to answer in the previous paragraph. However there are still a few points that are not clear. We learnt in this episode that the two female villains (i do not know anything about the male one we met in episode 2, who had gone to the same school of Shiki; I think he is Shiki's brother) were subdued after Shiki had obtained the Mystic Eye of Death Perception, but Araya had met Shiki before she obtained the MEoDP (we do not now what happened to Shiki towards the end of Ep 2 except for she faced Araya, she left on him a scar and the car accident. These points will probably be answered in Episode 7, Murder Speculation Part II). I do not know what was going on Araja's mind when he first met Shiki. Also we do not know why Kokutou fell asleep during summer for a month and what this has to deal with the first episode. 3) Well, the Mystic Eye of Death Perception is the reason of Araya's interest towards Shiki. As i have said before, the meaning of the project, which was started by Touko too, was to build a small scale world full of brutality (so the meaning of daily deaths of its residents, which were sinful people too). The experiment went on with no success. So Araya decided to obtain Shiki's MEoDP (control death=kwow about of the meaning of the world=spiral of origin) by transplanting his brain into Shiki's body (that's why Araya threw Shiki to the wall, because the building itself was Araya). Shiki, willing to help Enjou but unaware of Araya's involvement, went to the complex and there she was taken captive. The transplanting process probably needed a lot of time and it failed because of Kokutou and Enjou's plan. I do not know HOW Shiki could destroy Araya's barrier, maybe because the sword left in the elevator or Enjou's death. Thank you for your attention and please forgive my bad english. This is my own interpretation of the plot so there are surely some flaws and misunderstanding because of the (good) subs. Hanock |
| (Hanock, I read your post earlier. I'm too tired to reply now - I'll *probably* do so tomorrow. I'm not ignoring you: it's 3 AM here, and I plan on watching the sixth movie still!) I'm in the process of re-watching the film right now, and I've spotted two errors: 1: This has been mentioning before somewhere in the thread: at 1:07:33, Kokutou is lying on the floor after having his head beaten in by Alba. Touka then comes in and uses her cat-puppet on him, which Araya stops. The problem is, Kokuto didn't have his head beaten in until later; when the Touka replacement walks in following Alba destroying the head of the first Touka. Kokuto shouldn't have even been there when Touka got beaten by Araya. For such a big film, it's a fairly big error, but not surprising considering how the focus keeps changing from past to present. Edit: When the picture zooms out at 1:08:27, Kokuto is no longer there, confirming the error. 2: Araya says that no matter how many times the same deaths were repeated, nothing changed - the same pattern continued. And yet, Enjou, a puppet who escaped (Araya later says he didn't intend him to), was standing before him at the time. Seems like a plot hole to me. 3: Araya also says that he should remove Shiki's eyes as they're a problem when she cuts off his arm in their first encounter. At the same time and later in the film, he also states that he wants her eyes ability. He's contradicting himself, no? |
AironicallyHumanOct 2, 2009 7:15 PM
| I don't see how removing Shiki'e eyes and wanting her ability is a contradiction. Remove, then implant. Seems pretty logical. Damn, Hanock, you've got a pretty good speculation on things. I barely remember what happened now so I guess I'll have to rewatch it sometimes. |
| If it was just a case of implanting her eyes into his eye sockets, him trying to takeover her body, storing it and, for whatever reason, taking forever to do so, would've been pointless. I know it's said in the fourth movie that, even without the eyes, Shiki's ability would remain. However, Araya was refering to Shiki's ability to cut through his arm and stop it regrowing immediately after she'd cut through his other arm and he'd been able to regrow it. |
Aionic said: 1: This has been mentioning before somewhere in the thread: at 1:07:33, Kokutou is lying on the floor after having his head beaten in by Alba. Touka then comes in and uses her cat-puppet on him, which Araya stops. The problem is, Kokuto didn't have his head beaten in until later; when the Touka replacement walks in following Alba destroying the head of the first Touka. Kokuto shouldn't have even been there when Touka got beaten by Araya. For such a big film, it's a fairly big error, but not surprising considering how the focus keeps changing from past to present. Edit: When the picture zooms out at 1:08:27, Kokuto is no longer there, confirming the error. I would say it's not an error but the episode structure. In the first part of the episode, for example, we can see Kokutou sitting on a bench speaking to Touko and Enjou, a scene that do not fit the events we learnt thanks to the first part. The first battle scene cointains some of the frames of the second battle scene, such as the one you are speaking of. Aionic said: 2: Araya says that no matter how many times the same deaths were repeated, nothing changed - the same pattern continued. And yet, Enjou, a puppet who escaped (Araya later says he didn't intend him to), was standing before him at the time. Seems like a plot hole to me. Well i would say that Enjou did manage to escape because the building had a lot of flaws when it was build (I do not remember in which part of the episode they argued about this). Araya was not interested in this kind of thing (see if the puppets can rebel to their master and things like that). As you said, he set up the experiment only to see if people would have died in a different way over thousand and thousand of identical life-death daily cycles, which didn't happen. The meaning of the experiment was to discover the spiral of origin but all the efforts were useless without the Mystic Eyes. Aionic said: 3: Araya also says that he should remove Shiki's eyes as they're a problem when she cuts off his arm in their first encounter. At the same time and later in the film, he also states that he wants her eyes ability. He's contradicting himself, no? In the fourth episode we learnt from Touko that even if Shiki hurt her eyes, she will still see the flaws of things. So, considering Araya's perspective, the only important thing is not to kill Shiki. @Tachii I would say that Araja's intention was to become Shiki by transplanting his brain into Shiki's skull, not transplanting her eyes into his body. This is why he threw her to the wall and didn't manage to acquire immediately the Mystic Eyes, since the transplanting process needed a lot of time. It's like the Mystic Eyes are connected with Shiki's spirit, not with any of her body parts. Maybe Araya would have aquired the Mystic Eye thanks to a transplant because Shiki is a 'void shrine' and the transplanting process would have only add Araya's spirit to Shiki's one. It's a pleasure to chat with you all. Thanks to you i have realised things i would have never thought of :3. Hanock |
Aionic said: 1: This has been mentioning before somewhere in the thread: at 1:07:33, Kokutou is lying on the floor after having his head beaten in by Alba. Touka then comes in and uses her cat-puppet on him, which Araya stops. The problem is, Kokuto didn't have his head beaten in until later; when the Touka replacement walks in following Alba destroying the head of the first Touka. Kokuto shouldn't have even been there when Touka got beaten by Araya. For such a big film, it's a fairly big error, but not surprising considering how the focus keeps changing from past to present. Edit: When the picture zooms out at 1:08:27, Kokuto is no longer there, confirming the error. That was some very interesting discussion you have there. However I have to disagree that it was an error at all. It is however very tricky and I didnt realize it myself as well. I rewatched the scene again, the scenes are shown exactly as following: @ 01:07:26-, Touko arrives at the building, leaving her car behind. @ 01:07:27 - 01:07:32, Touko walks in through the frontdoor. @ 01:07:33, Alba looks down at Kokuto on the floor and then realizes theres somebody coming behind him, he turns around. @ 01:07:34+, suitcase is dropped, a cat released from within. It bites Alba. The tricky point is same as all other parts of the film, it never said its telling scenes according to the actual timeline. What we see @01:07:33 (Alba looks down at Kokuto on the floor) actually does not happen right after the scene we see @01:07:32 (Touko walks in), as it is usually being the case with most movies. The film was very carefully made. As there is nothing at all that actually suggests what happens @01:07:33 is on the same timeline as the rest of the scenes there. Why everyone come to the same conclusion though is simply because the timeline of the film (one scene after the other). But as it was shown earlier, the timeline of the film is actually totally messed up and it can not be trusted. example: @01:07:19, Kokuto reaches the door knob. next scene @01:07:20, Touko opens her car door. No explanation or whatever is given to tell you it doesnt happen at the same time and space, it is the obvious fact that the surrounding has changed so completely that you come to the conclusion it can not be at the same space and time. But this is not the case from 01:07:32 to 01:07:33, as the surroundings of 2 events that happened in totally different time remain exactly same, thus why it causes the confusion that they might be from the same time, but they arent. Now I think of it, this is the main point why the timeline of the movie is so messed up. Giving the mysterious and thrill sensation is of course pretty important, but whats more important is to give you the exact same confusion as Tomoe, who doesnt realize that he actually doesnt live at the place where he thought he does. The viewers of the film are actually NOT watching what they subconsciously think they are watching. (lol...) (edit: the surroundings of the building where Tomoe lives are the same everywhere, and why he thinks he is still living where he did, is only because of the lift, which got modified though. So if the surrounding view of the building should represent the background scenes of the movie, the lift be the timneline of the movie, then the Viewers of the movie are Tomoe, who got trapped inside a huge confusion but cant realize it themselves - caused by Soeren the magus or the movie producer each :-) I hope I have brought over some of my points, it might sound confusing, but I dont know how else to put it (and it is really confusing as well, lol....) Furthermore, it is to point out that there is not one picture where you can see "the cat in the same scene as Kokuto lying on the ground". |
vinesageOct 3, 2009 5:42 AM
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Hanock said: 1) Enjou did manage to escape because the complex had too many flaws when it was built. Repeating what was said in the film - that the building wasn't perfect originally - doesn't truly the answer the question. When no other 'puppet' managed to get away and (from what was shown when Shiki and Enjou used the key to go into the 'copy' apartment) the 'puppets' had no will of their own, why was it that the copy of Enjou alone managed to break free? Hanock said: he decided to subdue the villains to obtain Shiki's body and her Mystical Eyes of Death Perception (Shiki can see flaws and so control death. To control death means to know what death is and so the meaning of the world = spiral of origin). Since the villains were unable to deal with Shiki I don't see how using the villains of movies one and three helped Araya. At all. They certainly didn't weaken Shiki any. Hell, I don't see how he even thought them using supernatural powers would connect them to Shiki - it was only by chance Shiki got involved; firstly because of Kokuto getting his 'soul' taken and secondly because Touka received a job request. Araya explains later in the movie, after randomly mentioning the previous viillains, that he used them to distract the 'counter-force' - the will of the world itself, which tries to survive against all threats. Again, I don't see how Shiki fighting them did anything for him while he was getting on with his apartment complex project - what he and she were doing at the time were totally separate, and Shiki's fights weren't fought to reach the origin of all and destroy the world, meaning the 'counter'-force' wouldn't have needed to react. Hanock said: Shiki helped Enjou because, when she touched his stomach after saving him, she understood he was not a real murderer but a puppet, even if Enjou was sure he had killed his parents. Here you missed what I asked. I asked why Shiki helped Enjou; not why she let him live with her. In the previous films, Shiki wasn't shown to be the caring sort who would help a stranger in need. For her to jump in and help a random high school aged kid, who was being cased by three other kids, struck me as being out of character. Her reason of wanting to give him back the key he dropped seemed very, very weak. Shiki's blood makes her want to murder people. In her past, she smiled at dead corpses, using their blood for lipstick. Yes, she changed to a certain extent after she developed a third, more complete personality... but there still hadn't been anything to suggest she'd turned into a goody-goody. At first I also thought her allowing Enjou to stay with her was strange, but it made sense once she explained how she hadn't been seeing Kokuto: she had been lonely and needed company. For an almost anti-social person like herself, it still didn't quite fit, but I accepted that loneliness drove her towards Enjou. (I still thought it was off when she leaned over her bed, looking down at Enjou and playfully smiled, though.) Hanock said: 3) Well, the Mystic Eye of Death Perception is the reason of Araya's interest towards Shiki. I can understand seeing the structure of things = seeing the origin of all things. However, I cannot see what Araya could hope to achieve by taking over Shiki's body. Sure, he'd have been able to see the lines of death, but I fail to see how seeing those lines could allow him to reach the 'origin of all' he seeked. That part of his masterplan was never revealed. Then again, I can't see how he hoped to open a 'door' by having people die over and over. What, was a magical door supposed to appear if he allowed his puppets to die enough? I don't see his logic. With the film focusing on him trying to get Shiki, his plans were never explained well, with every detail being vague. All we know is that he wanted to reach the origin of the world, using a apartment complex of death and the body of one who can see the lines of death. Beyond that... Hanock said: by transplanting his brain into Shiki's body (that's why Araya threw Shiki to the wall, because the building itself was Araya) ...Ah, I remember Araya saying this now that you've mentioned it. If he removed Shiki's brain, he wouldn't have kept Shiki's powers. Going on Touka's explanation in the fourth movie, the ability is nothing to do with the eyes; it's something gained from facing death, meaning an experience is required for it to activate. This would suggest the brain allows for a person to see the lines; that something becomes unlocked when a person faces the grim repear and lives on. It would've been more logical if he'd said, "I'm planning on putting my soul into Shiki's body." Hanock said: The transplanting process probably needed a lot of time and it failed because of Kokutou and Enjou's plan. Or, put better, it needed enough time for the 'heroes' to gather to prevent Araya from doing the deed. No explanation was put forward for why Araya didn't just, you know, take over her body. I assumed during their first encounter, when he put his hand on Shiki's face, he was going to transfer himself over there and then. Touka had little issue transfering into another body; it was instant when the 'switch' in her original body allowed it. Hanock said: I do not know HOW Shiki could destroy Araya's barrier, maybe because the sword left in the elevator or Enjou's death. Like the final, where Shiki suddenly 'powered-up' by holding a sword, Araya commenting that she'd become much stronger all of sudden - deus ex machina. That's the only explanation for Shiki first stabbing Araya multiple times, even in the neck, and not killing him and then, later, getting the better of him 'inside himself.' As ever with main characters, she was allowed to win rather than it being down to any logic. ----------- I like the film. A lot. But I think it's very flawed; more so than its ranking would suggest. The closer you look, the more issues there are. It's fantastic to watch first time - the sort of film I'd walk out of a cinema feeling like I was walking on clouds after seeing - but when I sat down and re-watched it, I realized the excellent direction masked a simple film with with plot holes and a deus ex machina finale. When I re-watched it, I actually enjoyed the, straight-forward, ShikixEnjou section over the mindfuck sections. For me, the third KnK is the best, closely followed by the fifth. One last thing: someone mentioned Enjou sitting on the bench next to Kokuto not fitting. It did. Enjou had his hood up and was waiting for news. Kokuto had just got back from driving school and, by chance, was waiting for Touka to pick him up. It was a coincidence. |
Aionic said: One last thing: someone mentioned Enjou sitting on the bench next to Kokuto not fitting. It did. Enjou had his hood up and was waiting for news. Kokuto had just got back from driving school and, by chance, was waiting for Touka to pick him up. It was a coincidence. I didn't notice. You are probably right. Aionic said: Repeating what was said in the film - that the building wasn't perfect originally - doesn't truly the answer the question. When no other 'puppet' managed to get away and (from what was shown when Shiki and Enjou used the key to go into the 'copy' apartment) the 'puppets' had no will of their own, why was it that the copy of Enjou alone managed to break free? I don't know if this is the right answer but during the first minutes of the movie we can see Enjou killing his parents. It is surely a trick played by his mind, which is under the control of Araya. Probably Araya did planned Enjou to escape by manipulating his mind. Really there are infinite possible speculations. Aionic said: I don't see how using the villains of movies one and three helped Araya. At all. They certainly didn't weaken Shiki any. Hell, I don't see how he even thought them using supernatural powers would connect them to Shiki - it was only by chance Shiki got involved; firstly because of Kokuto getting his 'soul' taken and secondly because Touka received a job request. Well, the villains are connected to Shiki because of Kokutou. Remember, the girl in the first movie saw Kokutou everyday when he was going to take care of Shiki and she wanted to be 'saved' by Kokutou too, while Fujino had been helped by Kokutou when she hurt her leg during Middle school and she also went to the same schools of Kokutou's sister, Azaka. Also, in episode three Shiki said to Fujino they are birds of the same feather. This will be clear in episode seven i think, but i speculate they are linked together. Araya probably knew all this things. Aionic said: Araya explains later in the movie, after randomly mentioning the previous viillains, that he used them to distract the 'counter-force' - the will of the world itself, which tries to survive against all threats. Again, I don't see how Shiki fighting them did anything for him while he was getting on with his apartment complex project - what he and she were doing at the time were totally separate, and Shiki's fights weren't fought to reach the origin of all and destroy the world, meaning the 'counter'-force' wouldn't have needed to react. Shiki is the counter force because of her special eyes. At first Araya thought he could reach the origin thank to the complex project alone, so he sent the villains to distract her...or maybe to test her ability before fighting her, knowing his complex project was a total failure. Aionic said: I can understand seeing the structure of things = seeing the origin of all things. However, I cannot see what Araya could hope to achieve by taking over Shiki's body. Sure, he'd have been able to see the lines of death, but I fail to see how seeing those lines could allow him to reach the 'origin of all' he seeked. That part of his masterplan was never revealed. I suck at philosophy, but i would say if you knew what death really is, what is her meaning, why we have to live and die, you would discover what is the meaning of this life, the meaning of the struggle and joy we have to experience as human being. The KnK movie was probably simplistic and concretised all this into a thing, the spiral. Maybe we can call the spiral with the name of God (It's not my intention to offend anyone). It's very harsh to say but God is the meaning of death. Nordic cults thought that dying while fighting led them to the Valhalla next to Odin waiting for the Ragnarok (the final battle against the darkness). Catholics think that death is the means to meet God and live an (after) life full of joy and peace. Atheists think that there's nothing after death, so there's no God. And so on. Shiki said that she knows what death is and so she can control death. Shiki also said she could be able to kill the God of Universe because of her eyes. What do you think would happen if the God of Universe is killed? The meaning of life? The whole Universe would be destroyed and so the world. So the intention of Araya to obtain Shiki's power. However, I would say this series was not made to fit the logic of our world. So it is impossible to understand all the madness which is going on during 2 hours of good animation. When you watch this anime you should care about characters developement rather then the whole story, which is important too. Also, it has some plot holes since an episode is still left, and i think it will be the most important. We have also to remember minor translation flaws could have been committed. I'm sorry if i have missed something you asked. For me it's pretty hard writing a coerent text. I'm italian and i have not many chances to write/speak english. However, it's always a pleasure reading and writing on this thread. I'm looking forward to your (and everybody) answers/questions since you have filled some of my plot holes too (and i hope i have filled some of yours! :3) Hanock |
Hanock said: Damn it, I used the wrong word. And also forgot what happened in the movie to state such a thing. Heh. My bad. But it does make sense.@Tachii I would say that Araja's intention was to become Shiki by transplanting his brain into Shiki's skull, not transplanting her eyes into his body. This is why he threw her to the wall and didn't manage to acquire immediately the Mystic Eyes, since the transplanting process needed a lot of time. It's like the Mystic Eyes are connected with Shiki's spirit, not with any of her body parts. Maybe Araya would have aquired the Mystic Eye thanks to a transplant because Shiki is a 'void shrine' and the transplanting process would have only add Araya's spirit to Shiki's one. |
Aionic said: Hanock said: I do not know HOW Shiki could destroy Araya's barrier, maybe because the sword left in the elevator or Enjou's death. Like the final, where Shiki suddenly 'powered-up' by holding a sword, Araya commenting that she'd become much stronger all of sudden - deus ex machina. That's the only explanation for Shiki first stabbing Araya multiple times, even in the neck, and not killing him and then, later, getting the better of him 'inside himself.' As ever with main characters, she was allowed to win rather than it being down to any logic. Shiki was always stronger then Araya, at least in fighting ability. If you watch the first fight again, it becomes obvious that Araya surprised her with every move, she could never take the lead. Also remember that Shiki couldn't recognize Araya's lines at their first fight, not allowing her to use her ability as it's meant too be used (a normal stab in the neck isn't fatal too a magus of Araya's caliber). Perhaps after spending time inside "him", she was able to understand his nature enabling her to wake up, see his lines, and overcome the advantage he had with his magic. Or perhaps she sensed the conflict inside the apartment which woke her up and allowed her to break the barrier, which she technically always had the ability too break. Or perhaps Even Touko herself had a hand in waking her in which she broke the barrier, which she technically always had the ability too break. Or it could even be a combination of all three of those. Since it isn't explained very well it's mostly left up to speculation of the viewer. Looking at Shiki's character though, she didn't gain any new powers at that time and perhaps she mostly trained with a katana, surpassing her fighting ability with a knife (she was apparently training with a katana frequently with her family as was seen in a previous move). There is alot of logic too it unlike what you may think. But it all comes down too logic of the world they are in. That may seem far fetched, but it makes more sense in relation too Type-Moons original works. (fate/Stay Night covers the door too the origin and a very detailed extent of magi in general, and Tsukihime covers almost everything about the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and the main assassin families, Ryougi being one of them) Calling it a "Deus Ex Machina" is more of an insult to the writer then you might think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina Perhaps most of your "plot holes" were cleared up in the novel. Or perhaps as a big Type-Moon fan having gone through the original works (not very far in the novel) i understand more of the key points better. But I don't see any plot holes besides what might appear from bad quality checking of the animators. To be fair, I'd say it's a little unfair to bring up things you speculate as sketchy as plot holes or bringing up terms like that without reading the original novel. |
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Ketuekigami said: Perhaps most of your "plot holes" were cleared up in the novel. Or perhaps as a big Type-Moon fan having gone through the original works (not very far in the novel) i understand more of the key points better. But I don't see any plot holes besides what might appear from bad quality checking of the animators. To be fair, I'd say it's a little unfair to bring up things you speculate as sketchy as plot holes or bringing up terms like that without reading the original novel. I have an issue with this. The novel is the novel, and the adaption is the adaption. They are different works of art and should be judged seperately - Fight Club the book doesn't get better because the movie is damn good, nor does Umineko the anime get better just because the SN is genial. If something isn't in the movie, you can't point at the supposed source material and go "it explaineth and it absolveth". Not that the original critique seems to me very justified. Just, this kind of argument is hollow. Aionic said: I can understand seeing the structure of things = seeing the origin of all things. However, I cannot see what Araya could hope to achieve by taking over Shiki's body. Sure, he'd have been able to see the lines of death, but I fail to see how seeing those lines could allow him to reach the 'origin of all' he seeked. That part of his masterplan was never revealed. a) wait for it b) It's a hypothesis. Other ways have failed, maybe this one will lead somewhere - after all, everything can die, so it seems easy to conclude this universality has some origin within the Origin. |
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Kaisereddie said: Ketuekigami said: Perhaps most of your "plot holes" were cleared up in the novel. Or perhaps as a big Type-Moon fan having gone through the original works (not very far in the novel) i understand more of the key points better. But I don't see any plot holes besides what might appear from bad quality checking of the animators. To be fair, I'd say it's a little unfair to bring up things you speculate as sketchy as plot holes or bringing up terms like that without reading the original novel. I have an issue with this. The novel is the novel, and the adaption is the adaption. They are different works of art and should be judged seperately - Fight Club the book doesn't get better because the movie is damn good, nor does Umineko the anime get better just because the SN is genial. If something isn't in the movie, you can't point at the supposed source material and go "it explaineth and it absolveth". Not that the original critique seems to me very justified. Just, this kind of argument is hollow. This is very true, and i can agree on most levels. But I am (at least trying) not talking about the worth of either the anime or light novel in comparison too each other. I am talking about the plot scenario which is consistent in both the novel and the anime. Maybe it was a little rash too suggest reading the novel before it be fair too say this or that about the plot, but i myself do take somewhat issue too hash criticism of the plot when the assumption is made that there are plot holes everywhere and worse being the bringing up of "Deus Ex Machina" of being the solution of the final fight. Though in all fairness. This has been a discussion on the plot, and the only reason i brought up the novel was because the difference of presentation might reveal more key details then an anime watcher who has no knowledge of any of it would get from the anime. I would retract my very last sentence, but i do still hold too the ones before that. I guess i will call fault on myself for that. |
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Nick_xD said: Honestly, I had no idea what the hell was going on half the time. Maybe this is why I thought this was the worst KnK movie so far. Counter force? Tajit whatever? Yin and Yang? What were all those bottles? Why's that guy part of the building? O_O . cbf rewatching gonna look for a summary lol Same here. Considering KnK is a movie series, I would judge it less "heavy" comparing a TV series. 7/10 from me, just because the art and sound was awesome. If it was a TV series, no more than a 5/10. |
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