urgent: why mal is denying the approval of the ninja kamui like the others anime not produced for Japan?
| tomorrow would be the premiere of ninja kamui on Toonami and I can't add it to my list, the cast and music has been revealed, trailers, number of episodes, you name it. this needs attention asap! |
💢   |
| Does it meet this requirement from https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=141101 ? I. Anime Additions Additions to MyAnimeList's Anime DB must fit within the following scope: I.1 Country of Origin Animated works must be created: in Japan for the Japanese market (anime) in Korea for the Korean market (aeni) in China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan for their respective markets (donghua) as a joint production between Japan/Korea/China/Taiwan and another country, for both markets seems like it's still pending for approval https://myanimelist.net/anime/56285/Ninja_Kamui I don't really like that rule "it has to be made for JP, KR or CN audience". If it looks like anime, it shouldn't matter what audience it's being made for. |
BigBoyAdvanceFeb 10, 2024 10:37 AM
| The western anime fandom is in general overly pretentious with what they consider "anime" in spite of the fact that anime is just the japanese word for animation in general, and MAL has generally proven to be probably the most pretentious as you can see with the Scott Pilgrim incident from November |
This post is brought to you by your local transfem gamer goblin. Will not tolerate bigotry and will fight against "anti-woke" sentiment to make the anime community a safer place.  |
Reply to deg
this rule again im sure is making it pending approval if park is the only director when the credit rolls out in the episode then there is a chance it will be added here on mal
I.2.2 Joint productions must have at least one professional animation creator from I.1 in a key position with creative control over the production; e.g. director, script, storyboard, character design.
If only the animation is outsourced to Japan/Korea/China, the animation is not eligible.
If the professional animation creator shares the key position with multiple other members from the joint country or an outsourced animation company, it will be assumed the professional creator was not given creative control (e.g. Neo Yokio, Pacific Rim)
I.2.2 Joint productions must have at least one professional animation creator from I.1 in a key position with creative control over the production; e.g. director, script, storyboard, character design.
If only the animation is outsourced to Japan/Korea/China, the animation is not eligible.
If the professional animation creator shares the key position with multiple other members from the joint country or an outsourced animation company, it will be assumed the professional creator was not given creative control (e.g. Neo Yokio, Pacific Rim)
deg said: if park is the only director when the credit rolls out in the episode then there is a chance lol when I was reading I thought you said there was no chance 😅 BigBoyAdvance said: seems like it's still pending for approval https://myanimelist.net/anime/56285/Ninja_Kamui thanks for the link! I couldn't found it directly on the search bar because is pending, yes I already knew someone submitted the entry... on the Feb. 2nd 😱 I see ppl already posting as well on its forum, for what I read it's not probably be approved 🤔 here's the discussion for anyone interested https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2142090 |
💢 |
| If it's not made in Japan it's not anime |
| This is going to be more and more of a problem going forward, as more and more anime get made for the global audience, with funding from producers and streaming services outside Japan. Are these "rules" so sacred and unchangeable? Even the forum post itself calls them "guidelines". |
| even ANN site has little info about the va cast, guess it's not gonna happening 😑 https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=25712 perseii said: This is going to be more and more of a problem going forward, as more and more anime get made for the global audience exactly, I think there's a difference between these and the outsourced animations from the past... this ones should be called colabs or coproductions |
💢 |
Reply to Rurihime
If it's not made in Japan it's not anime
| @Rurihime_chan The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site. As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime. |
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| I'm thankful to MAL for keeping its database safe from undesirable elements. |
Reply to NightVampire
@Rurihime_chan
The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site.
As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime.
The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site.
As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime.
NightVampire said: it is not made FOR Japan. What makes you say that, though? Genuine question. Is it not airing in Japan or something? Or is it because it's airing first (or at the same time?) on Toonami? Or is it because it's funded by Adult Swim/Warner Bros.? What happens if they decide to air this in Japan a few months later? Also, if it's not "made for" Japan, why does this have Japanese VA? |
Reply to NightVampire
@Rurihime_chan
The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site.
As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime.
The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site.
As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime.
| @NightVampire You could say the same thing for Housing COmplex C in 2022, it doesn't even have a Japanese sub. But it got added. |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. We're freaking out that we're running out of time, but to do what? Should i stop and think of that? Is there something i could do to slow it down? Live in a day for once, instead of watch it sprinting by |
Reply to perseii
NightVampire said:
it is not made FOR Japan.
it is not made FOR Japan.
What makes you say that, though? Genuine question.
Is it not airing in Japan or something? Or is it because it's airing first (or at the same time?) on Toonami? Or is it because it's funded by Adult Swim/Warner Bros.? What happens if they decide to air this in Japan a few months later?
Also, if it's not "made for" Japan, why does this have Japanese VA?
| @perseii It is made for Adult Swim. It was announced by Adult Swim. As I know main target audience of this anime is not Japan. I do not mean that nobody in Japan will watch it, but main target audience is not Japan. perseii said: why does this have Japanese VA Because many people watch anime only with Japanese voices. But for me, there is not much difference for who they made it. It is made IN Japan, so it is anime and should be added. |
NightVampireFeb 10, 2024 1:03 PM
|
Reply to NightVampire
@Rurihime_chan
The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site.
As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime.
The problem is that Ninja Kamui is made IN Japan, but it is not made FOR Japan. That is why some anime are not added to this site.
As for me, all animations made in Japan are anime. Without difference for who they made it. Animations not from Japan but with a similar style are not anime.
| @NightVampire the thing is this is very tricky as there are very popular series that only were able to continue because of funding from Western companies since they were only popular in Western countries. The Big O is probably the biggest example, as Cartoon Network is the only reason that the anime was able to even finish its second season as it originally had its production run cut in half by the Japanese network, but it was so popular on Toonami, that they were able to help fund the last 13 episodes. This was in the early 2000s and over time the Japanese animation industry has become much more global in the internet age, so there's quite a bit of consideration put into both a domestic and international audience these days with a lot of series that get produced. For years now, Crunchyroll has been a part of production committees on shows like Citrus, Noblese, So I'm a Spider So What, The God of High School, Tower of God, TONIKAWA, A Place Farther Than the Universe, Yuru Camp, Shield Hero, and Solo Leveling, which goes to show that in the modern era these boundaries between international and domestic production are breaking down. It's making things a lot more complicated with the very rigid views that Western fans and sites have for "anime" since Japan isn't really in its own bubble and a lot of shows have Western companies on their production committees and do look at the international audience as well. This issue of what counts as anime doesn't even really exist in Japan since the term is just used to refer to anything animated, but the West seems constantly in conflict with their definition since the idea of "Japanese animation made for the Japanese market" is so vague with how much international companies are involved and the international market does have a stake in things now. A lot of Japanese shows even have artists from other countries help with animation which complicates things further. This problem of the Western definition being at war with itself is probably only going to continue to ramp up as more and more shows are made like this over the years as the cultural and physical barriers in our world continue to break down and become more open in the internet age. |
| This post is brought to you by your local transfem gamer goblin. Will not tolerate bigotry and will fight against "anti-woke" sentiment to make the anime community a safer place. |
Reply to TheBlockernator
@NightVampire You could say the same thing for Housing COmplex C in 2022, it doesn't even have a Japanese sub. But it got added.
| @TheBlockernator Yes. Housing Complex C is made in Japan, but is made not for Japan. Also, I can say this about FLCL: Grunge (2023) and FLCL: Shoegaze (2023). They are also added. And I think that Ninja Kamui should also be added. Ninja Kamui is made in Japan so it is anime. |
NightVampireFeb 10, 2024 1:00 PM
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| The rules clearly need a revamp. An overwhelming majority of comments here are in favor of allowing that show on MAL. Rules should be a reflection of the community's sentiments. |
Imagine thinking that "anime" is only about visual style. That's exactly what it is about. The reason anime is instantly recognizable and is categorized separately from western cartoons is because of its artstyle. Nobody really cares if it's directed by JP people or not, or if it's intended for JP audience or not. If it looks and feels like anime, it's anime, regardless who made it.  |
Reply to NightVampire
@TheBlockernator
Yes. Housing Complex C is made in Japan, but is made not for Japan. Also, I can say this about FLCL: Grunge (2023) and FLCL: Shoegaze (2023). They are also added. And I think that Ninja Kamui should also be added. Ninja Kamui is made in Japan so it is anime.
Yes. Housing Complex C is made in Japan, but is made not for Japan. Also, I can say this about FLCL: Grunge (2023) and FLCL: Shoegaze (2023). They are also added. And I think that Ninja Kamui should also be added. Ninja Kamui is made in Japan so it is anime.
| @NightVampire THat's the point i was making, why add Housing Complex C but not Ninja Kamua |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. We're freaking out that we're running out of time, but to do what? Should i stop and think of that? Is there something i could do to slow it down? Live in a day for once, instead of watch it sprinting by |
Reply to TheBlockernator
@NightVampire THat's the point i was making, why add Housing Complex C but not Ninja Kamua
| @TheBlockernator I would never want to touch this argument with an infinitely long pole, but... Yu-Gi-Oh! Capsule Monsters. Japanese franchise, still animated by Gallop, but only voiced in English, and only distributed via 4Kids. I ain't gonna throw my hat in the ring, but Yu-Gi-Oh! Capsule Monsters is just an example that I can never stop thinking of when people mention the "Is it anime" argument. |
 |
Reply to BigBoyAdvance
Imagine thinking that "anime" is only about visual style.
That's exactly what it is about. The reason anime is instantly recognizable and is categorized separately from western cartoons is because of its artstyle. Nobody really cares if it's directed by JP people or not, or if it's intended for JP audience or not. If it looks and feels like anime, it's anime, regardless who made it.
BigBoyAdvance said: If it looks and feels like anime, it's anime, regardless who made it. Problem is that some 100% anime does not look like stereotypical anime. Appleseed Alpha is anime? Biohazard: Vendetta is anime? Lupin III: The First is anime? But it looks like western cartoon. Country where it is made is simple way to separate anime from other animations. Problems with classification will be if animation is made in 2 countries. In this situation, if Japan does not have creative control, then it is not anime. |
NightVampireFeb 11, 2024 3:56 AM
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Reply to Rurihime
If it's not made in Japan it's not anime
| @Rurihime_chan it's made in Japan so it's a anime. |
| So, it only exists here but you can't track or rate it. And after the show is over, you can't complete it. Doesn't make much sense. |
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| Just because one person doesn't think it's an anime (MAL's Admin) so it's not an anime. |
if Japan does not have creative control, then it is not anime. If a pizza is made with italian recipe, with italian ingredients, in Italy, but the cook is French, it's still a pizza. I love food analogies. |
| If it looks/sounds like anime then I see no reason why we can't class it as anime. When I watch a football game between Brazil and Argentina, I don't call it a fake football match just because Englishmen were not part of the creative process. You follow the basic conventions closely enough then you deserve for your work to be recognised as anime. I do believe there is a degree of gatekeeping, glorification of the "anime" title and perhaps a degree of unwillingness to review whether existing policies in defining anime are still fit for purpose. No matter what you do some people will be upset. |
Reply to LSSJ_Chloe
The western anime fandom is in general overly pretentious with what they consider "anime" in spite of the fact that anime is just the japanese word for animation in general, and MAL has generally proven to be probably the most pretentious as you can see with the Scott Pilgrim incident from November
LSSJ_Gaming said: anime is just the japanese word for animation in general Let's not keep pretending we want MAL to add Spongebob and Mickey Mouse, because we all know they never will. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| MAL really need to start making polls to solve this kind of things. It's getting ridiculuous. Simple "Do you want Scott Pilgrim to be added?" Yes/No "Do you want Ninja Kamui to be added?" Yes/No Simple as that, let people who actually USE website decide. Like @Lucifrost said it's not like we're asking to add Duck Tales here. Or Cory in the House. My favorite anime of all time. Yet no one does anything, because they know the vote won't be in their favor. Newsflash: simply ignoring the issue won't make it go away. Idgaf if something "considered" to be anime by two particular people or not, I just want to track and discuss stuff. The more stuff I can track, the better. I've been using this site for, what, almost 15 years? Jeshush. When I just started, there was close to no manhwa and light novels, and would you look at that- how things have changed! Rules can change and bend as well. They should change and bend. AniList never had this problem. They have both Ninja Kamui and SP, as well as tons of others titles MAL refuses to add and/or approve, and if it wasn't for mods openly reading your DMs and obsessing over censorship, I would have preferred using that site instead. |
Reply to BigBoyAdvance
Imagine thinking that "anime" is only about visual style.
That's exactly what it is about. The reason anime is instantly recognizable and is categorized separately from western cartoons is because of its artstyle. Nobody really cares if it's directed by JP people or not, or if it's intended for JP audience or not. If it looks and feels like anime, it's anime, regardless who made it.
| @BigBoyAdvance "looks and feels like anime" is an incredibly arbitrary criteria, which doesn't make for a good guideline. |
| They should not add this stuff onto MAL. It is only anime if it is made primarily for the Japanese market, and it made, written and directed by Japanese people. It should also have a Japanese voice cast, although there are some VERY rare exceptions to this rule, like Afro Samurai. This is because it was the Japanese author's creative choice to only have an English voice cast, with Japanese subtitles in the Japanese market, because he thought it helped the atmosphere. Meanwhile, there is stuff like Housing Complex C that was only made for Americans and should be taken off of this site, along with all of the FLCLs except the original. I even think CyberPunk Edgerunners should be taken down for not being directed by a Japanese studio, and having a mostly Polish staff. |
| fr man i was very sad when i couldnt find it on mal 😔 |
 Migi... Handle the defence. |
| Yeah the rules don't make sense and are super hypocritical. The Suicide squad isekai is on MAL even though that was intended for more of an American audience which is the reason why Scott Pilgrim isn't on here. It's so confusing. |
| "Bro, if you set your mind to it. You can jack off to anything." ☆☆☆☆☆ |
Reply to Impogniagrift
@BigBoyAdvance "looks and feels like anime" is an incredibly arbitrary criteria, which doesn't make for a good guideline.
| @Impogniagrift Arbitrary criteria are excellent guidelines in anime, since 99% of animes are instantly recognizable visually as "anime" using arbitrary "it feels like anime" criteria, by everyone who's seen at least 1 anime in their life. Trying to argue otherwise is extremely dishonest. |
| It's directed by the guy behind JJK and animated by a Japanese studio. Blade Runner: Black Lotus, Cyberpunk Edgerunners and The Animatrix are even more unambiguously aimed at a Western audience since they're based on American IPs and they have entries so if this doesn't get onto the site then there's something fundamentally wrong with the standards of the DB moderators. |
LoveLikeBloodFeb 11, 2024 9:45 AM
Take care of yourself |
Reply to Daviljoe193
@TheBlockernator I would never want to touch this argument with an infinitely long pole, but... Yu-Gi-Oh! Capsule Monsters. Japanese franchise, still animated by Gallop, but only voiced in English, and only distributed via 4Kids. I ain't gonna throw my hat in the ring, but Yu-Gi-Oh! Capsule Monsters is just an example that I can never stop thinking of when people mention the "Is it anime" argument.
| @Daviljoe193 I'm still salty about that. There's no reason for Capsule Montrs to not be on here |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. We're freaking out that we're running out of time, but to do what? Should i stop and think of that? Is there something i could do to slow it down? Live in a day for once, instead of watch it sprinting by |
Reply to DrMaionese
@ForgotEyeWasHere you know it was studio Trigger that made cyberpunk right?
| @DrMaionese A majority of the staff were Polish, and it was not made for a Japanese audience. Therefore, Cyberpunk Edgerunners should still not be on this website, as it is still not an anime. |
| @animegamer245 Definition of word "anime" is "Japanese animation". Made in Japan = anime. Even when it's made on money from another country or for viewers from another country. So I agree with you. Interesting moment. MAL and anidb have similar definition of what anime is. And on anidb Ninja Kamui is added as anime ( https://anidb.net/anime/18132 ) . Why MAL think that Ninja Kamui is not anime, but think that new FLCL (2023) are anime, I don't know. They are the same. |
NightVampireFeb 11, 2024 11:49 AM
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| MAL news post: This is anime MAL database mods: Yeah idk man |
| Because the guidelines were made in 2009 and haven't been updated since 2010 |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| This is just my own opinion but I think a lot of how MAL decides to add stuff to their database has a lot to do with what is generally accepted by Japanese Audiences as Japanese Anime despite the fact MAL seems to have no issue flooding the database with countless Donghua garbage. The existence of MAL has always been about Gatekeeping from my perspective seeing how there been quite a few Animation titles that have been in the database for years then suddenly removed over time. I think the MAL staff could be conflicted because they want to be inclusive as much as possible but also don't want the site to simply become know as a general animation database either by simply adding stuff Users demand to be added despite their individual circumstances. As an example I have never thought of anidb as a database strictly catering to only Japanese Anime because it's riddled in my opinion with too much general animation. Personally I think there are countless titles in the MAL database that are totally not Japanese Anime and have never been recognized as Japanese Anime even in Japan. Yet a database like MAL still adds what they want because it's their prerogative as a privately owned site. |
ColourWheelFeb 11, 2024 12:33 PM
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animegamer245 said: There Dragon Ball Kai: Final Chapters which was only made because Kai was so successful overseas that international companies kept throwing money at Toei to finish it. All these anime were made in Japan in for the international audience, but MAL hade no problem back then adding them to the site. MAL lists the Japanese version of Final Chapters, which has a different episode count than what aired elsewhere. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| According to MAL rules, One Piece isn't an anime because one of the producers is not japanese. I'm sorry, One Piece fans, but all this time you've been watching a western cartoon, not an anime. |
| Urgent: Nobody cared what you could or could not put on your List^^ MaL will decide. MaL will either put it on here or not and that'll be it. It won't matter what you have to say and you will still be using the website, bitching about it after everything is said and done. |
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Reply to traed
Because the guidelines were made in 2009 and haven't been updated since 2010
traed said: Because the guidelines were made in 2009 and haven't been updated since 2010 I thought this was hyperbole at first, but then I found out this is actually the case. That's kind of crazy. It's been 15 years, the industry has to have changed a lot. The guidelines deserve a review at least. |
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