KuroNekoAlchemy said: It's not even generation thing, I think the rapid decline of anime quality started around 2019, with last 3 or so years being the most attrocious I haven't thought about it but there is something what you say. Last time I thoroughly enjoyed an anime was in 2018. Last time I gave full points to an anime was in 2015. I put it down to general anime industry decline. When business goes bad you don't dare to try new innovative things. |
SgtBateMan said: Laugh my ass off when OP's watched so little and talked like having the whole picture in his mind. Even with a larger experience in anime, you must have known that every medium/era is a mixed bag of the good, the bad, and the ugly. Well, you can say I have second-hand knowledge from sitting around forums and imageboards since 2009. Most things simply don't interest me enough based on premise/content to even start watching it. For example, out of all anime this season I only watch made in abyss and shadows house and only cause I follow manga. Last season, there was nothing interesting to me. The season before that either. In 2021 there were maybe 10 shows that picked my interest of which I've forced myself to watch maybe 6 and only one was really good. Before that I don't remember. |
KuroNekoAlchemy said: SgtBateMan said: Laugh my ass off when OP's watched so little and talked like having the whole picture in his mind. Even with a larger experience in anime, you must have known that every medium/era is a mixed bag of the good, the bad, and the ugly. Well, you can say I have second-hand knowledge from sitting around forums and imageboards since 2009. Most things simply don't interest me enough based on premise/content to even start watching it. For example, out of all anime this season I only watch made in abyss and shadows house and only cause I follow manga. Last season, there was nothing interesting to me. The season before that either. In 2021 there were maybe 10 shows that picked my interest of which I've forced myself to watch maybe 6 and only one was really good. Before that I don't remember. Ahahaha. People used to play games on YouTube, now they watch anime on MAL. How far technology has come. |
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| Because more anime are made these days which means on average you see more mediocre or bad ones, though there are still good shows every year like before. |
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RobertBobert said: KuroNekoAlchemy said: Well, you can say I have second-hand knowledge from sitting around forums and imageboards since 2009. Most things simply don't interest me enough based on premise/content to even start watching it. For example, out of all anime this season I only watch made in abyss and shadows house and only cause I follow manga. Last season, there was nothing interesting to me. The season before that either. In 2021 there were maybe 10 shows that picked my interest of which I've forced myself to watch maybe 6 and only one was really good. Before that I don't remember. Ahahaha. People used to play games on YouTube, now they watch anime on MAL. How far technology has come. What games on youtube? Tbh I don't remember that being a thing |
KuroNekoAlchemy said: RobertBobert said: Ahahaha. People used to play games on YouTube, now they watch anime on MAL. How far technology has come. What games on youtube? Tbh I don't remember that being a thing This is a joke that trolls people who criticize games based on letsplays and streams, that is, without playing them. Well, you get my hint. Ericonator said: Because more anime are made these days which means on average you see more mediocre or bad ones, though there are still good shows every year like before. People who create such threads simply can't enjoy anime anymore due to age or anime exhaustion. You can easily see this by complaining about popular genres or trying to shame people because of their age. At one time, OP himself began to watch anime as a teenager, including choosing what was popular and close to his age. But now he's too old for that, so he tries to rationalize it by saying that the anime has changed. Anime hasn't changed, OP has changed. Any reasonable person who has been in the fandom long enough knows this. |
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RobertBobert said: This is a joke that trolls people who criticize games based on letsplays and streams, that is, without playing them. Well, you get my hint. Ericonator said: Because more anime are made these days which means on average you see more mediocre or bad ones, though there are still good shows every year like before. People who create such threads simply can't enjoy anime anymore due to age or anime exhaustion. You can easily see this by complaining about popular genres or trying to shame people because of their age. At one time, OP himself began to watch anime as a teenager, including choosing what was popular and close to his age. But now he's too old for that, so he tries to rationalize it by saying that the anime has changed. Anime hasn't changed, OP has changed. Any reasonable person who has been in the fandom long enough knows this. Actually, not quite. I got into anime through video games and visual novels, until I got bored with the medium. It's true that I did follow popular recommendations, but it was just like curiosity what it is about. Like when you explore unknown lands. Now, 12 years later, I can kinda tell what anime is gonna be about by watching the pv, reading comments, and stalking discussion threads. It kinda melts into a sea of sameness with barely a unique gem here and there to make up for ocean of less than mediocre. Of course I have changed, but the industry changed as well. Perhaps even more than industry, some kind of boarder social demand and supply, and mentality. This is seen in the novel world too, since wish fulfilment power fantasies are super popular nowadays(look at all the cookie cutter xianxia webnovel Chinese produce) while long, well-crafted, flowery written fantasy epics in the style of "Song of Ice and Fire", once a standard in fantasy bookwriting, are nowhere to be found. Same with speculative sci-fi, it gave way to flashy science fantasy. |
| Well, should I care? Watching 0 to 2 shows per current season is nice, because I can focus on watching something good from the previous seasons. And there are plenty of good ones from the previous 50 years. I think my life ends sooner than decent anime to watch :D |
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MizunoWaveRider said: MizunoWaveRider said: Because anime has (d)evolved from art to content. Too many anime are produced, which not only hurts the average quality but also prevents good projects from happening. More quality takes more time to produce and there is no time anymore. It's not about carefully crafting a timeless piece of art anymore, instead it's just about hammering out as much "content" as possible that focuses on memes, fanservice and either wholesome stuff or shock-factor. Yeah they were all about art when making shows that were legit toy commericals lol. I enjoy mecha anime and Gundam but I see it for what it is. Sure there is more content and there will be more glut but honestly while I can't say for certain there is way more anime from the 2000s and 2010s up to current day in my PTW than everything from the 70s-90s and no in general I don't find the quality on average to better in the past. You might get more glut but the increase of adaptions can actually lead to more good stuff being made as well because of the ease to get adaptions. Don't worry though as production costs finally rise the industry is going to start losing titles but you are then likely to see less "hammer out as much content" and possibly a more risk adverse industry as well. Who talks about Gundam? I meant stuff like Akira, NGE, Bebop, Escaflowne, Ghibli movies (that are good, aka Miyazaki and Takahata stuff), LOGH, Lain/Haibane/Texhnolyze... the very ambitious stuff yknow. Although Gundam was still much more innovative, influential and well-made (and less degenerate) by the time's standards than today's iskai and waifu anime. What drags down today's average quality is the sheer amount of garbage that comes out. Garbage always existed, but not in this quanity. And the amount of gems hasn't really increased. I see little chance of that approach changing tbh, but the hope will die last. Messed up the quote dude and again it's easy to cherry pick good quality. You can make any decade look amazing if you do that. Are you telling me the upcoming Uzumaki adaption isn't ambitious? Five years ago I would argue we had the peak of drama anime in the form of March and Showa Rakugo. Your examples are all well known classics from the eras they came out in. Did you pick up every single OVA or obscure short from those periods? Why are we comparing isekai and waifu trash then against said classics? Shouldn't we put it up against acclaimed titles in a fair fight? Why do you get to say Gundam doesn't count lol. We are talking about anime as a whole what the industry is as a whole both the bad, mediocre and the good. Like tell me where is the space operas on the level of LOTGH? I haven't found anything like that? There is a reason it gets remembered. Stuff you might cite as good to me is straight up garbage like Akira whose characters I found poor and themes somewhat pseudo intellectual that failed to really tie into the plot. I won't say it's overrated because the animation is beautiful and incredibly influential but at least the plot I can say was pretty much trash. I gave it a 2 point bump to a 4 only because of the animation. Lain was interesting but I wouldn't want to see art house shows like that be what the medium chased anyway. You get upset about isekai but most of the issues high medieval european fantasy isekai stuffer from fantasy titles like Loddoss War and Slayers were suffering from back in the day too. Objectively this medium was always about making low cost comics and animated works. Appealing to the idea artists aren't ever more than creatives chasing trends is also straight up foolish. That has always been the case in every era of history. Originality rarely exists and people always chase trends in the name of profit. If you hate the current state fine but I just find it so naive to argue there is such a thing as artistic integrity detached from profit. No way. It's always about chasing the bottom line but what makes up that bottom line doesn't appeal to you enough at the end of the day. Industries and hobbies can change and I have hit that point at times where I lose interest but I can't honestly say that I am not biased in trying to assess how actually a medium/hobby is doing because I have my own agenda of what I want to see. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 28, 2022 6:05 AM
BilboBaggins365 said: Objectively this medium was always about making low cost comics and animated works. Luckily they forgot to tell this to Miyazaki. But, as he said himself, he is not making animated films. He makes films which just happens to be animated. |
Ca309 said: BilboBaggins365 said: Objectively this medium was always about making low cost comics and animated works. Luckily they forgot to tell this to Miyazaki. But, as he said himself, he is not making animated films. He makes films which just happens to be animated. I mean if the industry didn't have the low cost production it did I don't think anime would anywhere as popular as it is today. That said while it may lead to less shows and more safe adaptions I do think it's good that production costs are noted to be going up due to animator pay even if that means smaller studios are going to go under. |
| People from different generration, will always complain about another. Simple as that. Businesses adapt to suit the customers need. |
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| I think you're lying to yourself. We get more good anime now than ever before. Sure we also get more bad anime than ever but the correlation is that we simply get a fk ton more anime in general than we used to. I used to watch like 1 good show per season were as now i feel like im watching 5-10 things at any moment. I dont even believe that anime used to be more mature. For every Ergo Proxy or whatever you consider mature, you always got a lot more random SoL, Shonen or ecchi junk. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
nebokko said: Ca309 said: Luckily they forgot to tell this to Miyazaki. But, as he said himself, he is not making animated films. He makes films which just happens to be animated. Movies are known to have very high production costs, not to mention depending on the studio and the experience of animators the costs get higher. So, it's pretty much bullshit to say "Objectively this medium was always about making low cost comics and animated works." How is it bullshit? Even today the average series being made for 2 million dollars is very low in the animation biz. The fact sure movies exist and can have higher budgets can undermine that a bit but often it's not that substantially higher. Ghost in the Shell was made on a budget of 3 million dollars USD even in the 90s that wasn't a lot of money. Even films that do get good budgets like Demon Slayer aren't comparable to say your average American animated film in terms of budget. Your Name had a budget of 5.6 million dollars USD. Manga are just often sold a $5 USD which is very cheap compared to Euro Comics and American comics. It's a very disposable medium and always has been. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 28, 2022 6:02 AM
nebokko said: BilboBaggins365 said: How is it bullshit? Even today the average series being made for 2 million dollars is very low in the animation biz. The fact sure movies exist and can have higher budgets can undermine that a bit but often it's not that substantially higher. Ghost in the Shell was made on a budget of 3 million dollars USD even in the 90s that wasn't a lot of money. Manga are just often sold a $5 USD which is very cheap compared to Euro Comics and American comics. It's a very disposable medium and always has been. Great job completely ignoring the fact making a manga costs higher when it's popular and you have multiple assistants to pay for, not to mention the manga prices chaneg depending on the country, to quote from a site about the costs and prices "if you buy manga in your own country, even in the original Japanese, it will usually be more expensive because of import costs. For example, in America, mangas cost you from 8 to 20 USD, sometimes more" and "manga in most of the other nations presented may seem pricey, if not outright expensive." And let's not forget the fact Redline almost bankrupted Madhouse, a major anime studio, because of its high production costs, a funny thing to happen for a medium that is supposedly " always about making low cost comics and animated works." Where are you getting that? Do you have a source because I can go on Amazon.JP right now and One Piece is around $5, Spy x Family the same. Demon Slayer has very high costs but I did hear there were shortages but at least that isn't necessarily true for every popular title. I also was just talking about Japan not international releases where they are going to be more expensive. Secondly yeah Redline almost bankrupt Madhouse because of the high production costs and low turnout which is why lol anime in large is a low cost low risk industry because if you overcommit you can sink yourself. If you want to get into semantics I will replace the world always with largely since that is what I mean. Of course there are exceptions only that largely the medium today and always has been low cost low risk. Series or movies that get high budgets are an absolute rarity and still even Redline's budget has nothing on even Illumination works. |
BilboBaggins365 said: MizunoWaveRider said: Who talks about Gundam? I meant stuff like Akira, NGE, Bebop, Escaflowne, Ghibli movies (that are good, aka Miyazaki and Takahata stuff), LOGH, Lain/Haibane/Texhnolyze... the very ambitious stuff yknow. Although Gundam was still much more innovative, influential and well-made (and less degenerate) by the time's standards than today's iskai and waifu anime. What drags down today's average quality is the sheer amount of garbage that comes out. Garbage always existed, but not in this quanity. And the amount of gems hasn't really increased. I see little chance of that approach changing tbh, but the hope will die last. Messed up the quote dude and again it's easy to cherry pick good quality. You can make any decade look amazing if you do that. Are you telling me the upcoming Uzumaki adaption isn't ambitious? Five years ago I would argue we had the peak of drama anime in the form of March and Showa Rakugo. Your examples are all well known classics from the eras they came out in. Did you pick up every single OVA or obscure short from those periods? Why are we comparing isekai and waifu trash then against said classics? Shouldn't we put up against titles in a fair fight? Why do you get to say Gundam doesn't count lol. We are talking about anime as a whole what the industry is as a whole both the bad, mediocre and the good. Like tell me where is the space operas on the level of LOTGH? I haven't found anything like that? There is a reason it gets remembered. Stuff you might cite as good to me is straight up garbage like Akira whose characters I found poor and themes somewhat pseudo intellectual that failed to really tie into the plot. I won't say it's overrated because the animation is beautiful and incredibly influential but at least the plot I can say was pretty much trash. I gave it a 2 point bump to a 4 only because of the animation. Lain was interesting but I wouldn't want to see art house shows like that be what the medium chased anyway. You get upset about isekai but most of the issues high medieval european fantasy isekai stuffer from fantasy titles like Loddoss War and Slayers were suffering from back in the day too. Objectively this medium was always about making low cost comics and animated works. Appealing to the idea artists aren't ever more than creatives chasing trends is also straight up foolish. That has always been the case in every era of history. Originality rarely exists and people always chase trends in the name of profit. If you hate the current state fine but I just find it so naive to argue there is such a thing as artistic integrity is detached from profit. No way. It's always about chasing the bottom line but what makes up that bottom line doesn't appeal to you enough at the end of the day. Industries and hobbies can change and I have hit that point at times but I can't honestly say that I am not biased in trying to assess how actually a medium is doing because I have my own agenda of what I want to see. Oops I've made the same quoting mistake earlier as well. Gotta get used to it again. That's a long comment, I will try to address everything. "it's easy to cherry pick good quality. You can make any decade look amazing if you do that." It's kinda hard for me nowadays to cherry pick good quality because the anime that dominate the charts is usually the waifu and isekai trash, but my point was that it's more about the ratio of good anime to bad anime that's decreased over the years. The amount of bad anime has increased by a lot while the amount of good anime didn't increase (it stayed the same at best, imo it got worse). I'm not saying everything that came out back then was a masterpiece but that the ratio of good to bad anime was a lot better. "Are you telling me the upcoming Uzumaki adaption isn't ambitious?" I cannot say much about the Uzumaki adaptation because it isn't out yet, but I doubt it's going to reach the heights of something like Akira or Ghost in the Shell (no matter if you like them or not, they were of groundbreaking quality for the time). But will see, maybe it will turn out to be groundbreaking that we will remember even 20 years later, I just doubt it. "Why do you get to say Gundam doesn't count lol" I didn't say it doesn't count, it was just not what I was referring to. If we look at Gundam it was of course a groundbreaking anime that influenced countless other groundbreaking anime and manga that came out and exploring meaningful topics like war in an ambitious space setting. It's aged considerably but that doesn't change how much it did for the medium (plus it was an anime original). The fact that it sold toys doesn't change that, it's infinitely more substantial than something like "Mushoku Tensei" or "Dress-up Darling" which are the type of anime that are popular today and are just about satisfying porn addictions. "Why are we comparing isekai and waifu trash then against said classics?" I originally compared the isekai and waifu trash with the trashy OVAs from back then and say that there is more (and imo worse) trash today. But the thing is, the isekai and waifu trash is usually the most hyped shit of today. Like nagatoro, dress-up darling, mushoku tensei, shield-hero, kaguya-sama, rent a girlfriend, made in abyss... that trash is the most watched stuff each season. I'm always searching for the gems but there are none to be found. Are they so well-hidden? There is the occassional decent or good show like 3-Gatsu and Shouwa, but as you said, that was like... 5 years ago. There was Vinland Saga recently, which I thought was a mediocre adaptation but the story of the manga was good enough to carry it. "Like tell me where is the space operas on the level of LOTGH?" Why must it be space operas? Seems like an arbitrary limitation. "Stuff you might cite as good to me is straight up garbage like Akira..."; "Lain was interesting but I wouldn't want to see art house shows like that be what the medium chased anyway..."; "You get upset about isekai but most of the issues high medieval european fantasy isekai stuffer from fantasy titles like Loddoss War" Well Akira is like, one of the most important anime of all time. I can understand you don't want every anime to be like Lain, but it's pretty much impossible for such an anime to be made this day in the first place. Despera, which was like supposed to be the spiritual sequel of Lain, cannot be made anymore because (as Chiaki Konaka said) the old business model broke down and it's impossible to get such an ambituous and unusual project greenlit. And for the isekai... I mean I cited Escaflowne, which is arguably one of the best isekai of all times. Like just being an isekai is not a bad thing (many classic stories like Alice in Wonderland or Neverending Story and anime classics like Spirited Away are isekai as well), the issue is that the modern isekai in particular is just so garbage. I mean look at them. They are all about some obnoxious nerd or loser traversing into a parody of a fantasy world and the fantasy creatures are basically just variations of waifus. How is that shit comparable to something like Escaflowne or Loddoss? And I don't even care about Loddoss, but come on, at least be that fair to make a distinction between fantasy worlds that try and fantasy worlds that are just glorified anime conventions. "Objectively this medium was always about making low cost comics and animated works. Appealing to the idea artists aren't ever more than creatives chasing trends is also straight up foolish. That has always been the case in every era of history. Originality rarely exists and people always chase trends in the name of profit." Depends on the time. When Tezuka started it was super low budget, in the 80s there were a lot of big budget projects, in the 90s due to the economic crisis the animation quality suffered but the stories became fascinating, in the early to mid 00s there was a combination of decent animation and decent stories and then came the waifu/moe and SAO-type isekai trend that completely consumed the medium. And I don't even want originality, I just want some anime that I can watch without cringing. Or even better, some anime that tempt me to put them in my tops. "If you hate the current state fine but I just find it so naive to argue there is such a thing as artistic integrity is detached from profit." But I'm not arguing that. I say back then was more quality over quantity than it is to day and that's the deciding difference between art and content to me. It's like a spectrum with art (quality) on one end and content (quantity) on the other end. Right now it's all about hammering out as many anime as possible and trying to go viral with one of them. |
Deathko said: I'm not sure there's any reason to shame someone with 250 anime completed and 75 days watched because he "watched so little". He watched a healthy, reasonnable amount lmao. Can't say the same about everybody. Well, basically what I meant is that he saw so little and believed having got the whole world in his hand. Then there came his response: Well, you can say I have second-hand knowledge from sitting around forums and imageboards since 2009. Most things simply don't interest me enough based on premise/content to even start watching it. For example, out of all anime this season I only watch made in abyss and shadows house and only cause I follow manga. Last season, there was nothing interesting to me. The season before that either. In 2021 there were maybe 10 shows that picked my interest of which I've forced myself to watch maybe 6 and only one was really good. Before that I don't remember. which effectively supported my point on this matter. |
SgtBateManJul 28, 2022 6:34 AM
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helpppppp!  |
| @SgtBateMan I'm actually impressed he managed to watch 75 days of anime by forcing himself to slog through seasonals. I bet he'd be sitting on 100+ days if he switched to the good 80s stuff. (^: @KuroNekoAlchemy If you wanna switch to anime that doesn't feel like work to watch, just ask for reccs! |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
MizunoWaveRider said: It's kinda hard for me nowadays to cherry pick good quality because the anime that dominate the charts is usually the waifu and isekai trash, but my point was that it's more about the ratio of good anime to bad anime that's decreased over the years. The amount of bad anime has increased by a lot while the amount of good anime didn't increase (it stayed the same at best, imo it got worse). I'm not saying everything that came out back then was a masterpiece but that the ratio of good to bad anime was a lot better. Last time I checked Odd Taxi, To Your Eternity, Vinland Saga, Golden Kamuy, MP 100, Made in Abyss, SxF, Ranking of Kings, Sonny Boy, Mashiro no Oto, Moriarty the Patriot, Great Pretender, Heike Monogatari, The Case Study of Vanitas, Astra Lost in Space, Hands off Motion Pictures Club aren't at all like your description. MizunoWaveRider said: I cannot say much about the Uzumaki adaptation because it isn't out yet, but I doubt it's going to reach the heights of something like Akira or Ghost in the Shell (no matter if you like them or not, they were of groundbreaking quality for the time). But will see, maybe it will turn out to be groundbreaking that we will remember even 20 years later, I just doubt it. I mean in your opinion I hope plotwise it isn't as bad as Akira. I haven't read it yet but Junji Ito is the king of horror manga and the fact a series is basically trying to make an accurate detailed almost motion manga due to the B/W nature is unique visually. MizunoWaveRider said: I didn't say it doesn't count, it was just not what I was referring to. If we look at Gundam it was of course a groundbreaking anime that influenced countless other groundbreaking anime and manga that came out and exploring meaningful topics like war in an ambitious space setting. It's aged considerably but that doesn't change how much it did for the medium (plus it was an anime original). The fact that it sold toys doesn't change that, it's infinitely more substantial than something like "Mushoku Tensei" or "Dress-up Darling" which are the type of anime that are popular today and are just about satisfying porn addictions. Mhmm so what about meaningful topics like war inherantly make them superior above say topics like sex? I can't say for Dress Up but there are unironic hentai that have covered things such as gender identity expression or dealing with the idea that disabled people can be attractive too. That is going to be better than some really too deep for you plot line. Wanting sex or even hentai doesn't mean you have a porn addiction lol. At the end of the day no "substance" doesn't make something inherantly better. Execution Execution is what matters. What is the work's aim and did you achieve that. If I try to write something deep and fail and if someone wants to make something sexy and succeeds the latter will always be better. Honestly if you fail at a serious topic that is going to be way way worse than a bad ecchi. At least I don't feel the author is a complete try hard at the end of the day. It's also not like many shows haven't heavily appeal to fanservice in the form of stuff like Cutie Honey, City Hunter, Urusei Yatsura, Outlanders or hey the 90s OVA I just watched Burn Up! either. Bastard just got a new adaption a 90s manga filled with fanservice. The medium has always had a decent amount of sex appeal. Even Gundam has it watching Victory right now and Tominio really was going for the older women younger dude fetish in that series. Objectively the industry must have gotten better then since we actually get less pure ecchi adaptions than say 12 years ago if that is your complaint. MizunoWaveRider said: I originally compared the isekai and waifu trash with the trashy OVAs from back then and say that there is more (and imo worse) trash today. But the thing is, the isekai and waifu trash is usually the most hyped shit of today. Like nagatoro, dress-up darling, mushoku tensei, shield-hero, kaguya-sama, rent a girlfriend, made in abyss... that trash is the most watched stuff each season. I'm always searching for the gems but there are none to be found. Are they so well-hidden? There is the occassional decent or good show like 3-Gatsu and Shouwa, but as you said, that was like... 5 years ago. There was Vinland Saga recently, which I thought was a mediocre adaptation but the story of the manga was good enough to carry it. I mean in your opinion. Kaguya is probably the best rom com I have seen. I mean your complaint is that well rom coms are popular today that is it. So it's not the industry has gotten worse it's more like they aren't making serious sci fi and art house anime and I am upset. You are free to your opinions as I to thinking some of the stuff you have rated well is also overhyped. I would love to see the industry do more war dramas and historical titles but I am just one viewer and can only blame myself for not supporting the industry more or getting enough people to enjoy that stuff to cater to those desires. The right statement isn't the industry got worse it just stopped catering to me. I mean the point is you literally went to the peak of the genre to compare it to average seasonals. That isn't a fair comparison. Even looking at other stuff I highly doubt there is much on that level. MizunoWaveRider said: Well Akira is like, one of the most important anime of all time. I can understand you don't want every anime to be like Lain, but it's pretty much impossible for such an anime to be made this day in the first place. Despera, which was like supposed to be the spiritual sequel of Lain, cannot be made anymore because (as Chiaki Konaka said) the old business model broke down and it's impossible to get such an ambituous and unusual project greenlit. And for the isekai... I mean I cited Escaflowne, which is arguably one of the best isekai of all times. Like just being an isekai is not a bad thing (many classic stories like Alice in Wonderland or Neverending Story and anime classics like Spirited Away are isekai as well), the issue is that the modern isekai in particular is just so garbage. I mean look at them. They are all about some obnoxious nerd or loser traversing into a parody of a fantasy world and the fantasy creatures are basically just variations of waifus. How is that shit comparable to something like Escaflowne or Loddoss? And I don't even care about Loddoss, but come on, at least be that fair to make a distinction between fantasy worlds that try and fantasy worlds that are just glorified anime conventions. Important doesn't mean good. It's a classic because of influence and I get that. The influence is coming from the animation though and I was pretty disappointed about literally everything else. Loddoss on the other hand is a terrible DnD story that literally plays every single trope straight. Something like Re Zero at least attempts to have more world building and uses the loser otaku in at least an interesting way. Fact is though these all go back to generic fantasy tropes that stem from Dragon Quest. Until Japanese creatives divorce from that and actually look at the cultures that created said work it's not going to get better. Plus again something Freiren Beyond Journey's End is pretty similar quality wise but I just started Escaflowne and need to read more of Freiren. MizunoWaveRider said: Depends on the time. When Tezuka started it was super low budget, in the 80s there were a lot of big budget projects, in the 90s due to the economic crisis the animation quality suffered but the stories became fascinating, in the early to mid 00s there was a combination of decent animation and decent stories and then came the waifu/moe and SAO-type isekai trend that completely consumed the medium. And I don't even want originality, I just want some anime that I can watch without cringing. Or even better, some anime that tempt me to put them in my tops. Really I just finished Burn Up it was okay. Even for stuff I actually do think was pretty creative like Now and Then, Here and There has a lot of flaws that drag it down. I am not going to pretend to be an expert on old anime I haven't seen enough but I am going to be honest a lot of pure fans of old anime really overhype how much more amazing previous decades were. They were great if you were fans of certain genres. There is a great appeal from the cell shade animation not better than digital but different. At the end of the day though I am not hitting gem after gem eh will see after another 50 as I am making a consciousness decision to watch even more but I doubt it's going to improve that much. At the end of the day too you complain about moe anime but Girls Last Tour and Yuru Camp are amazing and great shows. You don't like it but you don't like it not because of some objective failing of what they were going for but because it doesn't fit the genre you desire for the medium. At that point why not just quit? I have done that when I felt that way about other mediums too. Again it's not because the artistic integrity fell the medium just changed. MizunoWaveRider said: But I'm not arguing that. I say back then was more quality over quantity than it is to day and that's the deciding difference between art and content to me. It's like a spectrum with art (quality) on one end and content (quantity) on the other end. Right now it's all about hammering out as many anime as possible and trying to go viral with one of them. Well I am just saying there isn't some choice between quantity or quality. If we got less adaptions I don't think the industry would be better off. The industry of the 70s to 90s might look even better if it got the levels of production we have today. Lots of short OVAs that would have been great as full series. More sequels etc. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 28, 2022 7:00 AM
nebokko said: BilboBaggins365 said: Where are you getting that? Do you have a source because I can go on Amazon.JP right now and One Piece is around $5, Spy x Family the same. Demon Slayer has very high costs but I did hear there were shortages but at least that isn't necessarily true for every popular title. I also was just talking about Japan not international releases where they are going to be more expensive. Secondly yeah Redline almost bankrupt Madhouse because of the high production costs and low turnout which is why lol anime in large is a low cost low risk industry because if you overcommit you can sink yourself. If you want to get into semantics I will replace the world always with largely since that is what I mean. Of course there are exceptions only that largely the medium today and always has been low cost low risk. Series or movies that get high budgets are an absolute rarity and still even Redline's budget has nothing on even Illumination works. Your argument is as weak and baseless as ever, and cherry picking now by saying you were only talking about costs in Japan and not costs in general. To answer your question, partly I took this site as reference for costs https://mangascout.com/manga-cost/ but leaving that aside for now. Wikipedia says an anime episode can cost between US$100,000 and US$300,000 to produce, which s nowhere a cheap cost unlike your delusional self claims and here is a quote from yet another site about anime costs that are supposedly cheap according to you; "The truth is, producing an anime is a herculean task: a gigantic amount of money and manpower get poured into every production well behind the scenes, before a single drawing is even created. The stakes are huge for every company involved, and every season will have a number of winners and losers." and this is the source site for the quote https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2012-03-05 Wikipedia also says In 2001, animation accounted for 7% of the Japanese film market, above the 4.6% market share for live-action work. Furthermore, according to Wikipedia Japanese television stations have bought over ¥60 billion worth of anime from production companies "over the past few years", compared with under ¥20 billion from overseas, which is ironic for a medium that is supposedly " always about making low cost comics and animated works." And as for manga, even if you ignroe the overseas prices if you decide to buy Tankōbons instead of regular manga volumes you'd see how the cost and the price rises so your argument of "It's a very disposable medium and always has been." fails here too. Unlike you I am basing my argument on facts and factual sources whereas you base your argument on limited observation and personal thoughts without basis. Lol you realize an episode of family guy costs like 2 million dollars The Simpsons it's like $5 million. Invincible got 10 million per episode. $100,000 is like 1/20 of the cost of an American adult animated show. That is incredibly cheap. You then whine about the fact I was talking about Japan regarding manga when I again only talked about Japan because I wanted to ignore translation and licensing costs which don't have anything to do with producing the work just distributing it beyond the original country of appeal. Unlike you I am also looking at the wider picture with facts. Source: https://fordhamobserver.com/64296/recent/arts-and-culture/invincible-power-is-not-his-toughness/#:~:text=The%20show%27s%20animation%20is%20the,M%20for%20its%20Disney%2B%20shows. https://www.workandmoney.com/s/finances-of-the-simpsons-4843d9c66c994198#:~:text=Each%20episode%20of%20“The%20Simpsons,television%20show%20is%20enormously%20expensive. https://www.therichest.com/rich-powerful/this-is-how-much-an-episode-of-family-guy-costs-to-make/ The other stuff like the cost for say Despicable Me or Your Name you could literally just look up like I did on Google. Relative to other developed nations the animation biz of Japan and SK is very cheap. Main reason why outsourcing there by Western studios (Japan more back in the day SK now) is so common. You don't have to pay them anywhere near what you are going to pay for a Western production. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 28, 2022 7:09 AM
| Seriously, what is the purpose of this thread? If you don't like anime, you should stop watching it. This thread has gotten out of hand. Old vs new is dumb. |
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nebokko said: BilboBaggins365 said: Lol you realize an episode of family guy costs like 2 million dollars The Simpsons it's like $5 million. Invincible got 10 million per episode. $100,000 is like 1/20 of the cost of an American adult animated show. That is incredibly cheap. You then whine about the fact I was talking about Japan regarding manga when I again only talked about Japan because I wanted to ignore translation and licensing costs which don't have anything to do with producing the work just distributing it beyond the original country of appeal. Unlike you I am also looking at the wider picture with facts. Source: https://fordhamobserver.com/64296/recent/arts-and-culture/invincible-power-is-not-his-toughness/#:~:text=The%20show%27s%20animation%20is%20the,M%20for%20its%20Disney%2B%20shows. https://www.workandmoney.com/s/finances-of-the-simpsons-4843d9c66c994198#:~:text=Each%20episode%20of%20“The%20Simpsons,television%20show%20is%20enormously%20expensive. How convenient of you to cherry pick only the production costs for the only most popular animated shows that has been airing literally for decades and didn't have that much costs in earlier seasons to begin with because most of the money goes to voice acting costs rather than animation and totally ignoring the fact only a handful of American shows cost to make that much, and you DID NOT give any sources for the numbers you gave either you little delusional zoomer boy. the only source you gave wsa for Invincible which is an exception to begin with adn got nothing to do with long running animated shows you mentioned earlier. Suck on these facts. Yeah the reason I have to cherry pick is that there isn't a lot of shows that have made said numbers public true of anime too. Why shouldn't voice acting be included in a discussion about how on average anime is a low cost production compared to say American animation. They spend much more kay. That is objectively true. That is all I claimed lol so you can suck on those facts. Edit: Looking at it actually seiyuu don't get paid as much as I thought. I remember seeing a graph somewhere that implicated they can get paid big salaries which for the big names they do get that but most don't get paid that much. Just an edit to avoid spreading misinformation. If we look at their whole relationship America regularly outsourced to Japan so why wouldn't they have if it wasn't cheaper? Korea is just now their favourite target. If I am such a brain dead zoomer you should be old enough to remember when this was a common occurrence in the 90s. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2015-11-02/.94920#:~:text=American%20studios%20weren%27t%20just,yen%20to%20a%20US%20dollar. I am not going to delve through the internet likely finding unconfirmed data anyway to prove that one point to you. You haven't proved me wrong because objectively my own claim is that it is a "low cost industry' which in the context of the pure budget is true comparing to American animation. So that is it I am not going to bother responding to an overly hostile ingrate such as yourself. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 28, 2022 7:27 AM
| Anime, like most other entertainment mediums, have always been bad, since it’s typically just chasing whatever current trend there is until it’s no longer profitable. A new trend is set, and the cycle begins anew. It’s always been like this, there are some very obvious trends in all eras of anime. That’s why it’s important to just watch what you want to watch, and ignore what you don’t. Trust me, you’ll be a lot more satisfied. |
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| I've been watching seasonal shows for 10, 15 years and it doesn't feel much different than it does today. I guess because there's more shows airing seasonally today, if you're not watching a similar percentage of seasonal shows you would from the past, it could feel worse cause even if you're spending the same or less time watching but the quantity has increase so now you're judging even less of the season as a whole. Back then you could watch 10 shows and that'd be like half of shows airing, while today 10 shows is not even half of what's airing. Can you really say the years have gotten worse if you're not judging the seasons/years as a whole or at least to the same degree as the past? Not that I blame you, it's not like you can just start watching even more, especially as you get older. I also see people like to complain about cookie cutter shows using isekai but there has always been trendy themes and cookie cutter shows. Highschool magic battle for example which were stupidly abundant before isekai. You know, middle/highschool student, usually a boy, encounters some magical incident often times involving a female and leads the MC into learning to fight while the series keeps inserting more female characters. I would honestly say every genre has its share of cookie cutter shows. What irks me the most is when isekai alone is the target of criticism, especially if using the excuse that there's more of seasonally when we have an abundance of CGDCT and similar to it, those large female cast shows like idol shows that are all doing equally or worse in score to isekai and are even more cookie cutter than isekai. Now if you were to say that isekai has some of the shittiest tier writing, I would agree with you. |
| Anime is not bad, bad is the tendency to adapt isekai and idols thematic, that is it. |
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BilboBaggins365 said: MizunoWaveRider said: [spoiler] It's kinda hard for me nowadays to cherry pick good quality because the anime that dominate the charts is usually the waifu and isekai trash, but my point was that it's more about the ratio of good anime to bad anime that's decreased over the years. The amount of bad anime has increased by a lot while the amount of good anime didn't increase (it stayed the same at best, imo it got worse). I'm not saying everything that came out back then was a masterpiece but that the ratio of good to bad anime was a lot better. Last time I checked Odd Taxi, To Your Eternity, Vinland Saga, Golden Kamuy, MP 100, Made in Abyss, SxF, Ranking of Kings, Sonny Boy, Mashiro no Oto, Moriarty the Patriot, Great Pretender, Heike Monogatari, The Case Study of Vanitas, Astra Lost in Space, Hands off Motion Pictures Club aren't at all like your description. MizunoWaveRider said: I cannot say much about the Uzumaki adaptation because it isn't out yet, but I doubt it's going to reach the heights of something like Akira or Ghost in the Shell (no matter if you like them or not, they were of groundbreaking quality for the time). But will see, maybe it will turn out to be groundbreaking that we will remember even 20 years later, I just doubt it. I mean in your opinion I hope plotwise it isn't as bad as Akira. I haven't read it yet but Junji Ito is the king of horror manga and the fact a series is basically trying to make an accurate detailed almost motion manga due to the B/W nature is unique visually. MizunoWaveRider said: I didn't say it doesn't count, it was just not what I was referring to. If we look at Gundam it was of course a groundbreaking anime that influenced countless other groundbreaking anime and manga that came out and exploring meaningful topics like war in an ambitious space setting. It's aged considerably but that doesn't change how much it did for the medium (plus it was an anime original). The fact that it sold toys doesn't change that, it's infinitely more substantial than something like "Mushoku Tensei" or "Dress-up Darling" which are the type of anime that are popular today and are just about satisfying porn addictions. Mhmm so what about meaningful topics like war inherantly make them superior above say topics like sex? I can't say for Dress Up but there are unironic hentai that have covered things such as gender identity expression or dealing with the idea that disabled people can be attractive too. That is going to be better than some really too deep for you plot line. Wanting sex or even hentai doesn't mean you have a porn addiction lol. At the end of the day no "substance" doesn't make something inherantly better. Execution Execution is what matters. What is the work's aim and did you achieve that. If try to write something deep and fail and if someone wants to make something sexy and succeeds the latter will always be better. Honestly if you fail at a serious topic that is going to be way way worse than a bad ecchi. At least I don't feel the author is a complete try hard at the end of the day. It's also not like many shows haven't heavily appeal to fanservice in the form of stuff like Cutie Honey, City Hunter, Urusei Yatsura, Outlanders or hey the 90s OVA I just watched Burn Up! either. The medium has always had a decent amount of sex appeal. Even Gundam has it watching Victory right now and Tominio really was going for the older women younger dude fetish in that series. MizunoWaveRider said: I originally compared the isekai and waifu trash with the trashy OVAs from back then and say that there is more (and imo worse) trash today. But the thing is, the isekai and waifu trash is usually the most hyped shit of today. Like nagatoro, dress-up darling, mushoku tensei, shield-hero, kaguya-sama, rent a girlfriend, made in abyss... that trash is the most watched stuff each season. I'm always searching for the gems but there are none to be found. Are they so well-hidden? There is the occassional decent or good show like 3-Gatsu and Shouwa, but as you said, that was like... 5 years ago. There was Vinland Saga recently, which I thought was a mediocre adaptation but the story of the manga was good enough to carry it. I mean in your opinion. Kaguya is probably the best rom com I have seen. I mean your complaint is that well rom coms are popular today that is it. So it's not the industry has gotten worse it's more like they aren't making serious sci fi and art house anime and I am upset. You are free to your opinions as I to thinking some of the stuff you have rated well is also overhyped. I would love to see the industry do more war dramas and historical titles but I am just one viewer and can only blame myself for not supporting the industry more or getting enough people to enjoy that stuff to cater to those desires. I mean the point is you literally went to the peak of the genre to compare it to average seasonals. That isn't a fair comparison. Even looking at other stuff I highly doubt there is much on that level. MizunoWaveRider said: Well Akira is like, one of the most important anime of all time. I can understand you don't want every anime to be like Lain, but it's pretty much impossible for such an anime to be made this day in the first place. Despera, which was like supposed to be the spiritual sequel of Lain, cannot be made anymore because (as Chiaki Konaka said) the old business model broke down and it's impossible to get such an ambituous and unusual project greenlit. And for the isekai... I mean I cited Escaflowne, which is arguably one of the best isekai of all times. Like just being an isekai is not a bad thing (many classic stories like Alice in Wonderland or Neverending Story and anime classics like Spirited Away are isekai as well), the issue is that the modern isekai in particular is just so garbage. I mean look at them. They are all about some obnoxious nerd or loser traversing into a parody of a fantasy world and the fantasy creatures are basically just variations of waifus. How is that shit comparable to something like Escaflowne or Loddoss? And I don't even care about Loddoss, but come on, at least be that fair to make a distinction between fantasy worlds that try and fantasy worlds that are just glorified anime conventions. Important doesn't mean good. It's a classic because of influence and I get that. The influence is coming from the animation though and I was pretty disappointed about literally everything else. Loddoss on the other hand is a terrible DnD story that literally plays every single trope straight. Something like Re Zero at least attempts to have more world building and uses the loser otaku in at least an interesting way. Fact is though these all go back to generic fantasy tropes that stem from Dragon Quest. Until Japanese creatives divorce from that and actually look at the cultures that created said work it's not going to get better. Plus again something Freiren Beyond Journey's End is pretty similar quality wise but I just started Escaflowne and need to read more of Freiren. MizunoWaveRider said: Depends on the time. When Tezuka started it was super low budget, in the 80s there were a lot of big budget projects, in the 90s due to the economic crisis the animation quality suffered but the stories became fascinating, in the early to mid 00s there was a combination of decent animation and decent stories and then came the waifu/moe and SAO-type isekai trend that completely consumed the medium. And I don't even want originality, I just want some anime that I can watch without cringing. Or even better, some anime that tempt me to put them in my tops. Really I just finished Burn Up it was okay. Even for stuff I actually do think was pretty creative like Now and Then, Here and There has a lot of flaws that drag it down. MizunoWaveRider said: But I'm not arguing that. I say back then was more quality over quantity than it is to day and that's the deciding difference between art and content to me. It's like a spectrum with art (quality) on one end and content (quantity) on the other end. Right now it's all about hammering out as many anime as possible and trying to go viral with one of them. Well I am just saying there isn't some choice between quantity or quality. If we got less adaptions I don't think the industry would be better off. The industry of the 70s to 90s might look even better if it got the levels of production we have today. Lots of short OVAs that would have been great as full series.[/spoiler] Oh god this is getting longer and longer. "Last time I checked Odd Taxi, To Your Eternity, Vinland Saga, Golden Kamuy, MP 100, Made in Abyss, SxF, Ranking of Kings, Sonny Boy, Mashiro no Oto, Moriarty the Patriot, Great Pretender, Heike Monogatari, The Case Study of Vanitas, Astra Lost in Space, Hands off Motion Pictures Club aren't at all like your description." Firstly I said "usually". Secondly, these anime do not dominate the charts. Thirdly, this is of course very subjective, but I don't think most of these are particularely good. I know many fans think that just being "unique" is enough, but no even amongst the more unique anime there is good and not so good execution. "I mean in your opinion I hope plotwise it isn't as bad as Akira." I haven't read Uzumaki (yet), I heard Ito is more known for his presentation than his plot. So my assumption is that, unless the anime manages to capture Ito's style in animated form it's going to flop. And horror anime... they usually don't work that well lol. Manga is a far superior mediium for that. But again, we will see. Also your hatred for Akira is funny. Like I commonly see people criticize Akira's story because it only adapts a fraction of the manga, but saying it's a 2/10 in terms of story, like come on. Its story is better than the one of the anime you mentioned above except for maybe Vinland Saga. The story of a delinquent obtaining the power of god that he cannot use responsibly and drawing a connection to the atomic bomb is at least more substantial than "I want to impress a girl but she doesn't notice me buhu", or "I'm a walrus because this show would be too boring otherwise". "Mhmm so what about meaningful topics like war inherantly make them superior above say topics like sex?" Obviously it has to be a well-executed political war drama and not just propaganda or some shit. And it still has to be entertaining, and Gundam was, at the time, entertaining enough to become a classic and it stays relevant today because of its depth in story, characters and worldbuilding. The reason war stories are substantial is because if we don't remember our past then we're doomed to repeat it. And art is a much more powerful way to remind us of what's truly at stake on an emotional and human level than just reading a text book that says "x million people died". As for topics like sex, I think it's fine to explore them but that's not what hentai do. Hentai are porn, and there is a difference between exploring sex and just being fap material. Porn is a thing that exists because you can't have the real thing or aren't satisfied with the real thing. If all people had and were satisfied with the real thing there wouldn't be a need for porn so to speak. Porn doesn't actually explore the concept of sex, if anything it distorts it and turns into into a cluster of fetishes. "dealing with the idea that disabled people can be attractive too." I know you don't mean it in a bad way, but I don't like the sound of that. Firstly, a person's value is not determined by how attractive they are, and anime turning disability into a fetish doesn't help. Secondly, real-life will never be able to keep up with the idealized version that anime or porn represents. Heck there are a lot of anime fans who don't find real women attractive anymore because of the waifu shit (you can even find a bunch of threads on MAL here). "At the end of the day no "substance" doesn't make something inherantly better. Execution Execution is what matters. What is the work's aim and did you achieve that." But some aim higher than others, and you have to take that into account. If you aim high it's easier to fail, of course, but if you aim low you cannot reach very high in the first place. Well-executed porn is still porn. It can give you a good fap but that's about it. "It's also not like many shows haven't heavily appeal to fanservice in the form of stuff like Cutie Honey, City Hunter, Urusei Yatsura, Outlanders or hey the 90s OVA I just watched Burn Up! either. Bastard just got a new adaption a 90s manga filled with fanservice. The medium has always had a decent amount of sex appeal. Even Gundam has it watching Victory right now and Tominio really was going for the older women younger dude fetish in that series." It depends on how far you go back, the further you go back the less you have of it. And a little fanservice here and there is okay, it becomes a problem when it gets too much to the point of getting distracting. Like I would enjoy Made in Abyss and Mushoku Tensei a lot more if they didn't shove loli fanservice in my face at every opportunity. The fanservice in popular shows back then was also presented a little different. Sailor Moon for example was highly stylized, Bastard was a dark rule of cool comedy, ranma had the themes of gender identity you talked about and so on. The fanservice and the content of the shows didn't interact like oil and water like it does in MiA and MT, nor is it overbearing to the point it becomes the whole show like in Dress-up Darling, Nagatoro, Rent a Girlfriend, etc. About Gundam... I can't speak much about Victory since I haven't seen it, but saying Gundam generally has too much fanservice seems like a stretch to me. "Objectively the industry must have gotten better then since we actually get less pure ecchi adaptions than say 12 years ago if that is your complaint." The difference is that the ecchi back then was accepted to be trash while the ecchi of today is the most watched stuff of each season and people refuse to accept that it's ecchi. "Kaguya is probably the best rom com I have seen." The best romance? The reason the two mains are supposed to be together is because they are the most popular of their school. There is literally no love, it's entirely based on main character status, because the plot says so. "I mean your complaint is that well rom coms are popular today that is it. So it's not the industry has gotten worse it's more like they aren't making serious sci fi and art house anime and I am upset." You're actually very wrong lol. The romance genre is one of my most watched genres. Koi Kaze is one of my all-time favorites and I also love His and Her Circumstances and Maison Ikkoku. I even watch all the trashy new-gen fetish romances like Dress-up Darling, Nagatoro and all that shit just because the romance genre is a guilty pleasure of mine. Seeing people form a relationship over a course of multiple episodes is satisfying to me, but Kaguya does not have that. It's not a love story, it's a meme story. There is no love anywhere to be found in Kaguya, it's just about memey mindgames, clips and gifs and I'm supposed to accept that these two love each other because the script says so. "The right statement isn't the industry got worse it just stopped catering to me." Yeah it's catering to porn addicts and tik tokers. And you say catering to porn addictions is as substantial as exploring war. See? I can use the strawman argument too. "I mean the point is you literally went to the peak of the genre to compare it to average seasonals. That isn't a fair comparison. Even looking at other stuff I highly doubt there is much on that level." I presented the peaks of multiple genres. You just so happened to be a LOGH fan so you singled it out. "Important doesn't mean good. It's a classic because of influence and I get that. The influence is coming from the animation though and I was pretty disappointed about literally everything else." The influence is coming from the visual storytelling and themes, which are present in countless other masterpieces such as NGE and Lain. The design, the music, the atmosphere, the psychedelic scenes... Saying Akira's entire appeal comes from its animation is oversimplifying it. But I get it, I also didn't like it much when I first watched it because my expectations were far too high. You will eventually come to the realization that its design, worldbuilding and storytelling are far superior to 99% of all anime out there. "Something like Re Zero at least attempts to have more world building and uses the loser otaku in at least an interesting way." Again, I don't care too much about Loddoss (I generally think anime has few good fantasy stories), but it's still better than the anime convention world in Re:Zero. Plus Re:Zero's appeal is goreporn and waifus, people don't really care much about the fantasy aspect. "Even for stuff I actually do think was pretty creative like Now and Then, Here and There has a lot of flaws that drag it down." Also an example for a pretty good isekai actually. I mean... of course it has some things in it you might dislike. But if we say everything that has things in it we dislike is the worst thing ever we might as well like nothing at all. The question is if the dumb stuff is a minor element that you can tolerate or a major element. I think it's great that you wanna watch older anime though and form your own opinion on them. "You don't like it but you don't like not because of some objective failing of what they were going for but because it doesn't fit the genre you desire for the medium." You should stop talking about genres. There are entries in nearly every genre I like. It's not about genre, a genre is just the package that contains the story and presentation, but what I care about is the story and presentation, not the package. "At that point why not just quit? I have done that when I felt that way about other mediums too." What should I quit? I'm not treating anime like a sport lul. If I see an upcoming anime I'm interested in, I will watch it. I'm not one of those guys who watches for the sake of watching. If there are no anime left that interest me, I'm not gonna watch anything until something pops up that might interest me. But why quit forever? Like an interesting anime shows up and I'm like "oh I would like to watch it but I already quit, too bad" or what? "Well I am just saying there isn't some choice between quantity or quality. If we got less adaptions I don't think the industry would be better off. The industry of the 70s to 90s might look even better if it got the levels of production we have today. Lots of short OVAs that would have been great as full series. More sequels etc. " I think we need more good original anime and we need better adaptations that do more than take the panels, color them, animate them and put music and voice over on it. I wanna see some bold directing choices. If it was possible to have both quantity and quality that would be bloody amazing. Like right now we have like 5 times more bad anime that we had in the past, imagine if we had 5 times more good anime as well. I just don't see it happening because cranking out more content is more lucrative than taking your time to polish a single work until it becomes great art. |
MizunoWaveRider said: Firstly I said "usually". Secondly, these anime do not dominate the charts. Thirdly, this is of course very subjective, but I don't think most of these are particularely good. I know many fans think that just being "unique" is enough, but no even amongst the more unique anime there is good and not so good execution. I mean dominate the charts? Decent amount of those are pretty popular some are more niche but in the context of what the industry puts out day by day why does that matter? MizunoWaveRider said: Also your hatred for Akira is funny. Like I commonly see people criticize Akira's story because it only adapts a fraction of the manga, but saying it's a 2/10 in terms of story, like come on. Its story is better than the one of the anime you mentioned above except for maybe Vinland Saga. The story of a delinquent obtaining the power of god that he cannot use responsibly and drawing a connection to the atomic bomb is at least more substantial than "I want to impress a girl but she doesn't notice me buhu", or "I'm a walrus because this show would be too boring otherwise". Uh no it's not. Maybe the manga would be better as it feels very clustered but again it's just a difference of opinion. The basic premise yeah has potential the execution was awful. A show like Kaguya Sama which is just two tsundere's fighting it out might be less "substantial" but at least the characters are enjoyable and the thing it's trying to sell me on the comedy is actually funny. MizunoWaveRider said: Obviously it has to be a well-executed political war drama and not just propaganda or some shit. And it still has to be entertaining, and Gundam was, at the time, entertaining enough to become a classic and it stays relevant today because of its depth in story, characters and worldbuilding. The reason war stories are substantial is because if we don't remember our past then we're doomed to repeat it. And art is a much more powerful way to remind us of what's truly at stake on an emotional and human level than just reading a text book that says "x million people died". As for topics like sex, I think it's fine to explore them but that's not what hentai do. Hentai are porn, and there is a difference between exploring sex and just being fap material. Porn is a thing that exists because you can't have the real thing or aren't satisfied with the real thing. If all people had and were satisfied with the real thing there wouldn't be a need for porn so to speak. Porn doesn't actually explore the concept of sex, if anything it distorts it and turns into into a cluster of fetishes. I mean again that is you projecting your own value that one is somehow better societally or for the medium because it goes in x direction. I love war dramas but it's because I genuinely love the stoicism, sacrifice and tragedy present in the works. It's not because I actually think it's that valuable to society or I am better for enjoying compared to some dude who loves power fantasy isekai. Honestly if you want to remind yourself about "repeating history" (history rhymes it doesn't repeat) just reading some actual history would be vastly more beneficial. Fiction shouldn't be largely used to come up with view points on the world. Plus if the whole point of said war dramas is to get people to not idealize war well that largely fails because most anti war stories deep down mythologize sacrifice that people still have a desire for. Also again I mean yeah it can. The fact it can distort reality is true of any topic depicted in fiction. As said before the above topics I have seen covered well in hentai and you can enjoy both the discussion there while using it for fap material. Sure maybe a lot of ecchi or hentai suck at really bringing forth that potential but it has nothing to do with the purpose or genre itself just the execution. MizunoWaveRider said: I know you don't mean it in a bad way, but I don't like the sound of that. Firstly, a person's value is not determined by how attractive they are, and anime turning disability into a fetish doesn't help. Secondly, real-life will never be able to keep up with the idealized version that anime or porn represents. Heck there are a lot of anime fans who don't find real women attractive anymore because of the waifu shit (you can even find a bunch of threads on MAL here). Yeah saying everyone can be attractive is the same as you're only valued by how attractive you are. That is straight up misrepresentation of what I said. Would you argue that someone finding an amputee attractive means they have a fetish? The idea of fetishization is so often misused and often applied to harmless romantic fantasies or erotica. Basically any bodily attraction whether be through build, race or some other characteristic therefore could be considered a "fetish". Also I literally wouldn't take posts on MAL of all things seriously. The average person saying that likely is lonely and would jump if they could find a meaningful relationships. Plus it's not anime that is a fault but a deeper social problem again caused by society becoming more online, less social and more isolated. MizunoWaveRider said: But some aim higher than others, and you have to take that into account. If you aim high it's easier to fail, of course, but if you aim low you cannot reach very high in the first place. Well-executed porn is still porn. It can give you a good fap but that's about it. But again aiming higher doesn't mean it's better. Why is the appeal for pure dopamine something to be criticized of? It's the same thing with over the top action films and people can still value that. Even if it's executed well I don't think inherantly titles that aim higher should always be given more credit for something that appeals to base desires. That isn't wrong and it should be praised if something is able to really hit that peak of dopamine whether that be a violent action movie or something with lots of sex appeal. I mean I love Redline almost as much as I love something like Monster. Monster may have more "substance" but Redline just hits that dopamine button I need sometimes. MizunoWaveRider said: It depends on how far you go back, the further you go back the less you have of it. And a little fanservice here and there is okay, it becomes a problem when it gets too much to the point of getting distracting. Like I would enjoy Made in Abyss and Mushoku Tensei a lot more if they didn't shove loli fanservice in my face at every opportunity. The fanservice in popular shows back then was also presented a little different. Sailor Moon for example was highly stylized, Bastard was a dark rule of cool comedy, ranma had the themes of gender identity you talked about and so on. The fanservice and the content of the shows didn't interact like oil and water like it does in MiA and MT, nor is it overbearing to the point it becomes the whole show like in Dress-up Darling, Nagatoro, Rent a Girlfriend, etc. About Gundam... I can't speak much about Victory since I haven't seen it, but saying Gundam generally has too much fanservice seems like a stretch to me. I mean I can watch Touch and enjoy it as a show but some of the stuff the male characters do would classify as sexual assault (peaking in on girls changing). The classic peak on the girls thing is pretty common you can find in stuff like Patlabor. I mean I like Space Cobra but at the end the reason lots of women even some of those in snowy climates often don't wear much is because of the baseline male attraction not some substantive reasoning. Making a joke of Bulma almost getting raped in DB by RR soldiers also would be considered pretty tasteless. Modern titles like Chainsaw Man do incorporate the fanservice into the plot and character development. Plus you can talk about Gundam the series that literally made a character in ZZ to appeal to lolicons by ripping her name from said loli magazine. One of her characteristics is about how much she constantly wanted to take a bath. Yeah Gundam doesn't have heavy fanservice but then again it actually has more nudity than some so called ecchi titles. My point is that even how minor lots of popular shows had ecchi elements and we still get popular anime like SxF, To Your Eternity, Haikyuu or Demon Slayer where it's non existent or minor at best. MizunoWaveRider said: "Objectively the industry must have gotten better then since we actually get less pure ecchi adaptions than say 12 years ago if that is your complaint." The difference is that the ecchi back then was accepted to be trash while the ecchi of today is the most watched stuff of each season and people refuse to accept that it's ecchi. I mean what timeline are we going by? Summer 2008 3 of the top five titles were ecchi. To Love Ru and Rosario to Vampire was popular that year as well. Winter 2010 two of the top 5 shows were ecchi. Same for Spring of that year. Summer 2010 the most popular anime was High School of the Dead. Fall the 4th highest was Yosuga no Sora. I mean if you go back to the early 2000s there is less popular ecchi but in terms of pure number that is the level we are returning too. It was way more popular in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Even in the early 2000s you had seasons like Summer 2004 where 3 out of the five where ecchi and while I guess Elfen LIed doesn't have that tag for some reason I have heard much. This upcoming fall no popular titles are ecchi (unless CSM comes out in Fall) unless you want to count MHA and Bleach for having fanservice which is the norm in most action shonen from Devilman in the 70s to now. Out of the 40 shows coming out that year only 3 are ecchi maybe 4 to count Urusei Yatsura. Regardless if it all sucks for you ultimately there is a variety for action shonen fans, sports fans, new Muv Luv and Gundam for mecha fans, two shojo like romance titles, a DIY CGDCT anime there is variety. So again acting like oh yeah anime is just for ecchi fans or porn addicts yeah right. MizunoWaveRider said: The best romance? The reason the two mains are supposed to be together is because they are the most popular of their school. There is literally no love, it's entirely based on main character status, because the plot says so. Did you watch the show? Literally the whole point is while initially they think it would be good to date because of their work ethic, beauty or status they just come to genuinely appreciate all the gestures of kindness, friendship and empathy both give to one another. Love very much can form on such a basis. MizunoWaveRider said: Yeah it's catering to porn addicts and tik tokers. And you say catering to porn addictions is as substantial as exploring war. See? I can use the strawman argument too. What strawman did I even use? I mean objectively your complain is they are making x genre I don't like and I don't enjoy therefore the industry is bad. How did I create a strawman when that literally is what you have said? Yeah the industry is catering to porn addicts when ecchi is literally going down lol. MizunoWaveRider said: The influence is coming from the visual storytelling and themes, which are present in countless other masterpieces such as NGE and Lain. The design, the music, the atmosphere, the psychedelic scenes... Saying Akira's entire appeal comes from its animation is oversimplifying it. But I get it, I also didn't like it much when I first watched it because my expectations were far too high. You will eventually come to the realization that its design, worldbuilding and storytelling are far superior to 99% of all anime out there. Yeah that isn't happening. I actually had a hard time rationalizing Akira until I went over it again. My score was much higher before hand and then after that I felt comfortable giving a lower score. I really was having a hard time understanding why I didn't like this despite enjoying other classics like LOTGH or GiTS. That said I do plan to read the manga at some point just to see if some extra content can make it into a decent story. At the end of the day though while my opinions on things can change in terms of how much I like something or much I hate something at the end of the day if I hate something I hate something and if I like something I like something that never changes. I don't believe it to be better than no most of the anime I have seen. Sure more ambitious but again not better. MizunoWaveRider said: Again, I don't care too much about Loddoss (I generally think anime has few good fantasy stories), but it's still better than the anime convention world in Re:Zero. Plus Re:Zero's appeal is goreporn and waifus, people don't really care much about the fantasy aspect. I mean no it's now groundhog day in a dark fantasy setting is much more engaging than another literal story you could find in a DnD starter adventure lol. I mean honestly I mostly just watch the show for Subaru and his development and how he gets out of situations. None of the "waifus" really appeal to me kinda generic granted I at least give them credit for trying to at least develop Emilia but honestly the whole appeal is around Subaru that is it. MizunoWaveRider said: Also an example for a pretty good isekai actually. I mean... of course it has some things in it you might dislike. But if we say everything that has things in it we dislike is the worst thing ever we might as well like nothing at all. The question is if the dumb stuff is a minor element that you can tolerate or a major element. I think it's great that you wanna watch older anime though and form your own opinion on them. I didn't say it was the worst thing ever only that people really play up the 70s and 90s like it's just pure gold. That isn't what I find I wish that was the case but honestly I don't see the massive increase in quality. The industry wasn't just Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell and LOTGH no matter how I wish that to be the case. While the industry for better or worse changes in terms of pure quality in executing everything it attempts to in my opinion it's pretty static. To me it really just comes down to do you enjoy sci fi or mecha vs supernatural/some fantasy and SOL as the dominant genres and do you prefer cell shade vs digital but I don't see more imagination I don't see better writing. MizunoWaveRider said: You should stop talking about genres. There are entries in nearly every genre I like. It's not about genre, a genre is just the package that contains the story and presentation, but what I care about is the story and presentation, not the package. I mean you have a bias towards ecchi and moe as stated in your original comment. I mean if you want to get into subgenres you have particularly type of rom com you enjoy and you feel it's going in a different direction. Well if people enjoy what goes against your vision you feel that what your preferences are objectively healthier? Like dude I don't like Akira but I don't really have a problem with fans of it or who enjoy the work. On the other hand you attempt to just characterize any fan of Dress up or Nagatoro as a porn addict. I mean that is a very bitter way of looking at things. I might not largely be interested in isekai but again I don't feel the need to slander those that enjoy things I don't get the appeal for. MizunoWaveRider said: What should I quit? I'm not treating anime like a sport lul. If I see an upcoming anime I'm interested in, I will watch it. I'm not one of those guys who watches for the sake of watching. If there are no anime left that interest me, I'm not gonna watch anything until something pops up that might interest me. But why quit forever? Like an interesting anime shows up and I'm like "oh I would like to watch it but I already quit, too bad" or what? Because it's a bad time investment of your free time? (yeah funny I am wasting time on MAL on the other hand tired and sick so not like I can do much and these arguments can be fun) I don't play as many games as I used to nor do I watch a lot of sports I used to. I just felt my investment wasn't getting the emotional return I used to enjoy. Like I used to post on a SW forum because I genuinely enjoyed that as an IP and was a fan of the EU. I tried to stay positive as long as I could over Disney but by TLJ I was left disappointed. Now what I should I do just bitch about it endlessly or should I just move on to something worth my attention? Even if there is some good stuff in Disney SW the amount of annoyance looking for it isn't worth it. I can enjoy the past but the amount of fans who care about that aren't going to be high most of the interest is going to be around things I don't care about so why care about the community? There is just a very depressing atmosphere when you look at such a thing and you rarely see much that interests you. At the very least personally and fine if you feel differently I could only really be a very casual fan of something I largely don't find to be quality. That's just me and I have a hard time understanding people who largely hate an IP or medium but feel the need to check in with it. MizunoWaveRider said: I think we need more good original anime and we need better adaptations that do more than take the panels, color them, animate them and put music and voice over on it. I wanna see some bold directing choices. If it was possible to have both quantity and quality that would be bloody amazing. Like right now we have like 5 times more bad anime that we had in the past, imagine if we had 5 times more good anime as well. I just don't see it happening because cranking out more content is more lucrative than taking your time to polish a single work until it becomes great art. Well again I don't feel the % of quality at least so far has been better for me only difference is that yeah more comes out and ergo more stuff I want to watch but again difference of opinion. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 28, 2022 12:44 PM
BilboBaggins365 said: insert long text "I mean dominate the charts? Decent amount of those are pretty popular some are more niche but in the context of what the industry puts out day by day why does that matter?" Because I said: "It's kinda hard for me nowadays to cherry pick good quality because the anime that dominate the charts is usually the waifu and isekai trash" Though it's true that I know a lot of these and that some are decently popular. And I guess you could argue that a lot of gems from the past weren't overly popular at first either. We will see if something like Odd Taxi and Sonny Boy will be remembered as classics or if it will be forgotten just like the obscure trash OVAs of the past. "Maybe the manga would be better as it feels very clustered but again it's just a difference of opinion." Fair enough, I just have a hard time seeing what your problem is because you're very vague. I think you said you found the characters poor and that the themes were pseudo-intellectual stuff or whatever that didn't tie into the plot or smth? Like I just don't see it. The characters served the point of the narrative well-enough and the way the theme ties into the plot I already explained. Humans play around with science as irresponsibly as an angsty teenager would play around with superpowers, hence the atomic bomb allegory. And the reason the angsty teenager exists is because the higher-ups are irresponsible and use money for their own gain and corrupt science instead of using it to help the people. "history rhymes it doesn't repeat" It means the same thing, one is just more picky with the wording. Obviously it doesn't literally repeat. "just reading some actual history would be vastly more beneficial." The history books state the "facts" (which can vary based on who wrote it) but values are conveyed through other means (art, religion, philosophy). Knowing the historic facts is one thing, having values is another. Facts doesn't prevent terrible things from happening, values do. Or in other words, if people had values then the atomic bomb wouldn't exist (all hail Akira). "Plus if the whole point of said war dramas is to get people to not idealize war well that largely fails because most anti war stories deep down mythologize sacrifice that people still have a desire for." That is true, most war stories (and games) are hypocritical in that sense because they say war is bad while at the same time entertaining the audience with war. Though there is also artistry in an acknowledgement of that hypocrisy, like in Area 88. "As said before the above topics I have seen covered well in hentai and you can enjoy both the discussion there while using it for fap material." Then prove it. What are these amazing hentai that explore deep themes you speak of? "Yeah saying everyone can be attractive is the same as you're only valued by how attractive you are. That is straight up misrepresentation of what I said. Would you argue that someone finding an amputee attractive means they have a fetish? The idea of fetishization is so often misused and often applied to harmless romantic fantasies or erotica. Basically any bodily attraction whether be through build, race or some other characteristic therefore could be considered a "fetish"." If an attractive person doesn't have more value than a non-attractive person, then why does it matter outside of satisfying a fetish of a specific audience? "Also I literally wouldn't take posts on MAL of all things seriously. The average person saying that likely is lonely and would jump if they could find a meaningful relationships. Plus it's not anime that is a fault but a deeper social problem again caused by society becoming more online, less social and more isolated." I'm pretty sure they were serious (I was also surprised at how many there were). The average person saying that will likely never find a meaningful relationship because they think their current state is just who they are. Anime (and media in general) is obviously not the only problem but it is or can be part of the problem. Becoming a porn addict without porn sounds difficult. "But again aiming higher doesn't mean it's better. Why is the appeal for pure dopamine something to be criticized of? It's the same thing with over the top action films and people can still value that. Again your argument is the only thing that should be valued in art is basically something that talks about the human condition really seriously otherwise it's not valuable and I just highly highly disagree with that. It's very restrictive and to be honest boring." If it doesn't aim high, then why should it exist? What's the value of artificial dopamine rises? All it does is taking away people's boredom, which is pretty bad because boredom is the main trigger for creativity. If your child is bored, then the best way to kill its creative potential is to sit it infront of a TV. Same goes for adults. So tell me, why is it necessary that people can fap to porn or enjoy braindead action flicks and what negative consequences would occur if we got rid of all them? "I mean I can watch Touch and enjoy it as a show but some of the stuff the male characters do would classify as sexual assault (peaking in on girls changing). The classic peak on the girls thing is pretty common you can find in stuff like Patlabor. I mean I like Space Cobra but at the end the reason lots of women even some of those in snowy climates often don't wear much is because of the baseline male attraction not some substantive reasoning." You think the peaking in Touch is on the same level as the r*pist stuff in Mushoku Tensei or the constant penis sniffing in Made in Abyss, in which the characters are also presented as 10 yo? And Cobra... come on, the show is rule of cool macho nonsense and the hot chicks are part of it, it's not trying or pretending to be anything else. "Modern titles like Chainsaw Man do incorporate the fanservice into the plot and character development." Chainsaw Man's message is actually anti-porn, but it failed to get that message across due to being too explicit with the fanservice and thus all the fans don't get it and are waifuing the characters and bark at conventions. Even Fujimoto has complained about it, saying his american fans are idiots who should stop barking. It's a lot like Evangelion in that regard. But sure, I like CSM as well. And I don't wanna make it sound like all fanservice is bad. I made it clear that it's fine if it's incorporated well and doesn't overtake the story. "My point is that even how minor lots of popular shows had ecchi elements and we still get popular anime like SxF, To Your Eternity or Demon Slayer where it's non existent or minor at best." That's kinda true. SxF has... interesting fans who draw...interesting fan art, but I don't wanna blame the show for that too much, even if I think every show has the fans it deserves. And the other two are fine from what I've seen. And again... I'm fine with some fanservice as long as it doesn't overtake the story. I feel like I have to say this a lot because you seem to think I'm the anti-fanservice police. "I mean what timeline are we going by? Summer 2008 3 of the top five titles were ecchi. To Love Ru and Rosario to Vampire was popular that year as well. Winter 2010 two of the top 5 shows were ecchi. Same for Spring of that year. Summer 2010 the most popular anime was High School of the Dead. Fall the 4th highest was Yosuga no Sora. I mean if you go back to the early 2000s there is less popular ecchi but in terms of pure number that is the level we are returning too. It was way more popular in the late 2000s and early 2010s." I meant before the ecchi boom in the late 2000s. The ecchi trend of the late 2000s was weird, everyone knew it was trash but it was still popular. It was not until a little later when the "anime is trash and so am I" mentality started with Eromanga Sensei and shit like that and suddenly it was cool to like waifu anime. People basically just accepted that this was the route anime was going. But I think your analysis of today's ecchi anime is wrong because the ecchi is now incorporated in mainstream shows. It doesn't show tiddies directly so it doesn't count as ecchi, but not counting Dress-up Darling or Rent a Girlfriend as ecchi... like come on. "Did you watch the show? Literally the whole point is while initially they think it would be good to date because of their work ethic, beauty or status they just come to genuinely appreciate all the gestures of kindness, friendship and empathy both give to one another. Love very much can form on such a basis. " I saw the first season. There was no development, it was the same "he does something unexpected, I blush" from beginning to end. "I mean objectively your complain is they are making x genre I don't like and I don't enjoy therefore the industry is bad." And your objective complain is that anime should cater to porn addicts and that's good. See? I can also still use strawman arguments. "How did I create a strawman when that literally is what you have said?" Because I didn't literally say it. I mentioned anime from all kinds of genres, including romance and slice of life. Selective reading much? "Yeah the industry is catering to porn addicts when ecchi is literally going down lol." But you literally said it's okay that the anime industry caters to porn addicts. See, no strawman because you literally and objectively said it lol. "That said I do plan to read the manga at some point just to see if some extra content can make it into a decent story." Oh at least there is hope for you. "if I hate something I hate something and if I like something I like something that never changes" That's sad to hear. My opinions changed a lot over the years. "I mean no it's now groundhog day in a dark fantasy setting is much more engaging than another literal story you could find in a DnD starter adventure lol. I mean honestly I mostly just watch the show for Subaru and his development and how he gets out of situations. None of the "waifus" really appeal to me kinda generic granted I at least give them credit for trying to at least develop Emilia but honestly the whole appeal is around Subaru that is it." You love to use the word literal and objective huh. Calling Re:Zero that a dark fantasy setting is an insult to actual dark fantasy like Berserk. I thought Subaru was a very mediocre protagonist though I heard he gets more interesting in the second season which I didn't watch. The world was a total joke to me. The white whale chase fight was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen and that villain was just a joke. The best part of the show was during the middle when he was trapped in a loop he couldn't get out of. "I didn't say it was the worst thing ever only that people really play up the 70s and 90s like it's just pure gold. That isn't what I find I wish that was the case but honestly I don't see the massive increase in quality. While the industry for better or worse changes in terms of pure quality in executing everything it attempts to in my opinion it's pretty static. To me it really just comes down to do you enjoy sci fi or mecha vs supernatural/some fantasy and SOL as the dominant genres and do you prefer cell shade vs digital but I don't see more imagination I don't see better writing." Why are you still saying it's a genre thing for me when I just told you that romance is one of my favorite genres? Are you pretending not to read that? I will say it again: ROMANCE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE GENRES!!! Got it? Again: ROMANCE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE GENRES!!! I hope you were able to read it now so you can stop trying to put forth your agenda that I only like sci-fi and mecha (I don't even like mecha!!! LOL the only mecha I like are NGE and TTGL, maybe Gunbuster). There are even SOL shows I like like Haibane Renmei and NieA Under 7, although I wanted to dive deeper into that genre to find the gems there. Back to topic, I'm not saying that all people will prefer old anime compared to new anime (although you seem the type of guy who might like a lot of older anime), what I'm saying is that there were less anime back then than there are today, while having roughly the same amount of gems. Conclusion: A better good/bad ratio for older anime. I'm not saying you can't like the modern stuff. You can even think Kaguya-sama is a masterpiece for all I care. What I'm saying is that, if you watch all anime that come out every season, then you will watch far more trash in the modern seasons compared to the older seasons, while watching roughly the same amount of goodish shows each season. That's my prediction. Make the test, watch literally everything this season and everything from an earlier season and see what makes you puke earlier. "I mean you have a bias towards ecchi and moe as stated in your original comment." That's as if I would say you have a bias against Lain or avant-garde shows because you said in your original comment that you don't want to see a dozen of them each season. I'm fine with ecchi and moe in moderation, but not when it takes over everything. Please try to understand what I'm saying. "I mean if you want to get into subgenres you have particularly type of rom com you enjoy and you feel it's going in a different direction." That's just relativistic bullshit. It's like me saying you just don't like Akira because you have genre bias. You don't like this particular kind of sci-fi. I can literally say this about every single anime ever made. It's just lazy. "Well if people enjoy what goes against your vision you feel that what your preferences are objectively healthier? Like dude I don't like Akira but I don't really have a problem with fans of it or who enjoy the work." People can enjoy whatever they want, I never claimed anything else. People are free to watch porn and it's possible to do it while still living a healthy life (just like you can drink alcohol without being an alcoholic). I even said that lol but I guess that was the only part you conveniently happened to ignore because it doesn't support your agenda to frame me as someone who thinks bad of people who like porn. Also, you were ironically the first one to call me out on my favorites and tell me they are bad. Ironic. "On the other hand you attempt to just characterize any fan of Dress up or Nagatoro as a porn addict." No I don't lol. I say they have the same appeal as porn. The porn addict thing was me strawmanning you. "I mean that is a very bitter way of looking at things." Yeah good thing I don't look at things that way. "I might not largely be interested in isekai but again I don't feel the need to slander those that enjoy things I don't get the appeal for." I don't either. Cool. You have said nothing in this entire paragraph lol. "Because it's a bad time investment? I don't play as many games as I used to nor do I watch a lot of sports I used to. I just felt my investment wasn't getting the emotional return I used to enjoy about it. I would rather spend that on media hobbies I actually enjoy like reading non fiction or fiction or watching anime or other hobbies like cycling or badminton because that is a net positive." Well then by your logic I already quit right? Since I don't watch as many anime as I used to. Again, I don't get what you want me to do xD "If your point is the industry sucks well what is the point of investing time in a medium where maybe 1 out of 10 things you bother to look at won't be very good?" What do you mean? I just watch that one anime that's good and ignore the 9 bad ones lololol. What do you do? Do you literally watch every anime that comes out every season? |
MizunoWaveRiderJul 28, 2022 3:13 PM
| It honestly feels like, in 2020-2022 especially, that studios are trying to cater to the "twitter culture" of anime. Uzaki, Nagatoro, My-Dress Up, Spy x Family, etc. They all put more focus into trying to make stannable characters than focusing on the important stuff like plot and character development. Sadly, studios are putting more effort into getting their shows known through internet memes |
| I guess you just have to look for the best ones No gain in worrying about the trashy shows |
| Not exactly bad...but more like less-memorable. I don't know why in general, for some reason, anime lost a lot of its charm during the past decade. Hardly anything released after 2010 or so is a favorite-worthy production. |
Deathko said: @SgtBateMan I'm actually impressed he managed to watch 75 days of anime by forcing himself to slog through seasonals. I bet he'd be sitting on 100+ days if he switched to the good 80s stuff. (^: @KuroNekoAlchemy If you wanna switch to anime that doesn't feel like work to watch, just ask for reccs! what seasonals, I don't watch seasonals waiting a week for next ep almost guarantees losing interest, even if I like it |
| Besides the overall downgrade in animation due lack of new fresh animators nowdays compared with the past. They're still same |
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CickNipolla said: It honestly feels like, in 2020-2022 especially, that studios are trying to cater to the "twitter culture" of anime. Uzaki, Nagatoro, My-Dress Up, Spy x Family, etc. They all put more focus into trying to make stannable characters than focusing on the important stuff like plot and character development. Sadly, studios are putting more effort into getting their shows known through internet memes I've noticed this too. You might want to include Kaguya-sama on your list of twitter-fied anime too. That and Spy x Family are way more popular than they have any right to be and I think it's because they're so meme-able. Anyone tired of seeing Anya's smug reaction face yet? |
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epidemia78 said: CickNipolla said: It honestly feels like, in 2020-2022 especially, that studios are trying to cater to the "twitter culture" of anime. Uzaki, Nagatoro, My-Dress Up, Spy x Family, etc. They all put more focus into trying to make stannable characters than focusing on the important stuff like plot and character development. Sadly, studios are putting more effort into getting their shows known through internet memes I've noticed this too. You might want to include Kaguya-sama on your list of twitter-fied anime too. That and Spy x Family are way more popular than they have any right to be and I think it's because they're so meme-able. Anyone tired of seeing Anya's smug reaction face yet? anya's character is truly pointless to the plot of spy x family. shes only there to make funny noises and derpy faces. imagine creating a character with psychic powers and then using it only for a comedic point for an entire season people hate on fan service just to put anya or marin or kaguya in their favs |
| Damn, this thread has gone in circles for so long its devolved into hating on Anya? Wow |
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MizunoWaveRider said: Because I said: "It's kinda hard for me nowadays to cherry pick good quality because the anime that dominate the charts is usually the waifu and isekai trash" Though it's true that I know a lot of these and that some are decently popular. And I guess you could argue that a lot of gems from the past weren't overly popular at first either. We will see if something like Odd Taxi and Sonny Boy will be remembered as classics or if it will be forgotten just like the obscure trash OVAs of the past. Fair enough I think they will though. MizunoWaveRider said: Fair enough, I just have a hard time seeing what your problem is because you're very vague. I think you said you found the characters poor and that the themes were pseudo-intellectual stuff or whatever that didn't tie into the plot or smth? Like I just don't see it. The characters served the point of the narrative well-enough and the way the theme ties into the plot I already explained. Humans play around with science as irresponsibly as an angsty teenager would play around with superpowers, hence the atomic bomb allegory. And the reason the angsty teenager exists is because the higher-ups are irresponsible and use money for their own gain and corrupt science instead of using it to help the people. Like I don't want to get too off topic on Akira but one thing I never liked is Tetsuo goes pretty quickly from seeing Kaneda as brother figure to wanting to straight up murder him. I mean I guess that is what the supernatural power of Akira which isn't very well explained in the movie? Sure there was angst against him but even still murder? Really? People bashed the SW prequels and that was more believable in terms of betrayal. You have stuff like Kei talking about the meaning of life while they are in prison it's kinda of the same issue I had with GiTS the second film because while nice and all who would be thinking about that in such a time of distress? In large really it just comes down to the pacing is terrible which is why I am considering reading the manga. That doesn't excuse the movie though while A Silent Voice sure cuts a good amount from the manga the plot largely is able to get it's point across and stay consistent. MizunoWaveRider said: It means the same thing, one is just more picky with the wording. Obviously it doesn't literally repeat. Kinda of I am just being a bit snarky. MizunoWaveRider said: The history books state the "facts" (which can vary based on who wrote it) but values are conveyed through other means (art, religion, philosophy). Knowing the historic facts is one thing, having values is another. Facts doesn't prevent terrible things from happening, values do. Or in other words, if people had values then the atomic bomb wouldn't exist (all hail Akira). I mean I don't agree you can get values from history. It's not just facts it's interpretations, reasoning, even empathy etc. History being just pure facts and taught that way is an issue but it doesn't have to be just like that. The point is unlike art it is largely real as real as things can go. It's going to be the best actual study of human nature and who we are. Of course they don't prevent things from happening but values don't either. Are you saying what Oppenheimer and co would get values from art and then therefore wouldn't use the bomb. Oppenheimer was not exactly for it and everyone in question knew his concerns about literally lighting the atmosphere on fire but they used it anyway. Honestly in actual serious human issues like war values are just ideals not what is a real consideration. People will throw them out the first chance they get if they feel their situation is desperate enough. Personally all i can say is a book like Ordinary Men or something like Anne Frank which while a story is a non fiction diary is going to be more impactful than say a fictional story about genocide. What is real to me is impactful fiction it's just entertainment nothing more. MizunoWaveRider said: That is true, most war stories (and games) are hypocritical in that sense because they say war is bad while at the same time entertaining the audience with war. Though there is also artistry in an acknowledgement of that hypocrisy, like in Area 88. I mean it's something I think about. As a 40k fan the whole point of that franchise was to make fun of British conservatives and fascism but since the story became more serious that obvious parody is gone. Of course it has the grim darkness the corruption and evil of the Imperium etc but a lot of the protagonists still come off relatable even heroic even when doing pretty morally iffy things. People say well the franchise now has lost it's way but arguably that heroism in the appeal of doom is now the appeal for most fans and what made it popular compared to the joking nature of it earlier on. Like Tominio can go off on GUP but his war stories that sure depict the tragedy of conflict still are a vehicle to sell basically war toys. His characters might self sacrifice and lost a lot but that just makes them heroic martyrs. i have an distance at the end of the day that yeah this all fantasy but I mean when i was watching Hathaway's Flash with all the first person scenes all I could think is wow it would be cool to pilot a machine like this. MizunoWaveRider said: Then prove it. What are these amazing hentai that explore deep themes you speak of? The one I can name off the top of my head since I saved it would be Natsu no Takenawa. Again for the heads up it's a BL CD series. The person in question is having issues with their own body as a man. I wouldn't say again it's very deep or that most hentai is deep but stories like this can show that if we had longer running times like a full length manga series there is potential to do a lot with the medium. The fact most only last 1 volume in terms of manga limits the potential. MizunoWaveRider said: If an attractive person doesn't have more value than a non-attractive person, then why does it matter outside of satisfying a fetish of a specific audience? Again what is specifically harmful about making erotica of all the possible people out there? Yeah anime/manga is going to be idealized but that is true of everyone in question. The idea that you can be attractive to someone is a great boost of self esteem for a lot of people. MizunoWaveRider said: I'm pretty sure they were serious (I was also surprised at how many there were). The average person saying that will likely never find a meaningful relationship because they think their current state is just who they are. Anime (and media in general) is obviously not the only problem but it is or can be part of the problem. Becoming a porn addict without porn sounds difficult. Well again it's because they think they have no chance with whatever sexual identity they want to pursue. This could be a multiple of problems their own lack of effort in taking care of themselves or the overall again situation of society. Like you ever wonder why Japan has so many NEETS and otaku that pursue this hmmm maybe it's just the general isolation of their society that a lot in the West are getting to. Also the issue is that you are arguing porn itself is addictive when addictions are a psychological problem, People with addictions if you simply cut one thing out they might turns to drugs or alcholol to fill the emptiness. Some researchers even debate if there is such a thing. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140212153252.htm I would say there probably is as I would argue you can get addicted to literally anything but it's like saying in order to fight alcoholism prohibition was a great idea or drugs the war on drugs. There isn't anything wrong with engaging in said erotica like with all things in a limited fashion. You could argue some of the people you talk to aren't but again that goes back to the great social issue of loneliness and dooming defeatism and lack of effort some have. I don't think at least getting 2 or 3 popular ecchi titles is contributing to such a thing. MizunoWaveRider said: If it doesn't aim high, then why should it exist? What's the value of artificial dopamine rises? All it does is taking away people's boredom, which is pretty bad because boredom is the main trigger for creativity. If your child is bored, then the best way to kill its creative potential is to sit it infront of a TV. Same goes for adults. So tell me, why is it necessary that people can fap to porn or enjoy braindead action flicks and what negative consequences would occur if we got rid of all them? I mean isn't that the point of media? How is watching a deep show actually going to improve my creativity you would be better to start drawing yourself, playing an instrument yourself etc. Personally sure I enjoy LOTGH more than say a lot of ecchi but at the end of the day I can't honestly look in the mirror and say one actually benefited me. I was looking to enjoy myself and waste time and that is what I did. I am not saying works that explore the deeper aspects of human nature shouldn't be valued but if that is all you focus on you lack variety and things get boring you need variety. Sometimes all I want is a dopamine rush and I am going to congratulate media that does it the best in providing such the same as say a deep work is able to look at human society. They serve different purposes but I think for a lot of people both is necessary. MizunoWaveRider said: You think the peaking in Touch is on the same level as the r*pist stuff in Mushoku Tensei or the constant penis sniffing in Made in Abyss, in which the characters are also presented as 10 yo? And Cobra... come on, the show is rule of cool macho nonsense and the hot chicks are part of it, it's not trying or pretending to be anything else Well one neither of those are really the norm of what typical anime fanservice is. MHA, Chainsaw Man (which granted more explict but still in terms of basic approach is the same) and Dress Up (which I haven't watched but seen the fanservice scenes and they look harmless plus I heard S1 is going to be like the most sexual part anyway). All of that yes is like your typical fanservice of the past that you would find in Gunbuster or Touch. Why not just write it off then as typical ecchi/hentai esque trash then. The 90s had hentai like The Rapeman and VNs like Rance lol. Lolicon stuff you could find as well. I mean regardless the boom of such things started in the 80s more in manga than anime but still if we talk about I guess otaku media as a whole i don't think you can condemn just modern stuff. If you want to focus on anime fair enough. At the end of the day I mean yeah the stuff in Touch isn't going to bother me that much more than say MiA. It goes overboard board but I still enjoy them for what they are. MizunoWaveRider said: Chainsaw Man's message is actually anti-porn, but it failed to get that message across due to being too explicit with the fanservice and thus all the fans don't get it and are waifuing the characters and bark at conventions. Even Fujimoto has complained about it, saying his american fans are idiots who should stop barking. It's a lot like Evangelion in that regard. But sure, I like CSM as well. And I don't wanna make it sound like all fanservice is bad. I made it clear that it's fine if it's incorporated well and doesn't overtake the story. I mean yeah I mean this goes back to war dramas. I would say that to me it feels less like anti porn and more just attacking the idea of fetishes. Like some of the appeal is YEAH dominant woman but I mean it's pretty obvious the relationship is abusive. That is an issue some who fantasize about these things have to face. There can be a very fine line between fantasy and actual harm. At the end of the day though I think you can still enjoy the fanservice side while also having the back of your mind hey this is kinda fucked up lol. It's kinda like that one short I completely forgot up with the blue haired girl that is obviously really there for sexual attraction but it's also critiquing pure hedonism. It can be both. MizunoWaveRider said: That's kinda true. SxF has... interesting fans who draw...interesting fan art, but I don't wanna blame the show for that too much, even if I think every show has the fans it deserves. And the other two are fine from what I've seen. And again... I'm fine with some fanservice as long as it doesn't overtake the story. I feel like I have to say this a lot because you seem to think I'm the anti-fanservice police. Well you go back to Cardcaptor a series that isn't I would say fanservice but I could make the same accusation at Clamp as some of those uniforms not really appropriate for a young girl. Even non ecchi titles the creatives and fans can do iffy things. At the end of the day doesn't change that SxF is popular but beyond typical romance teasing with Yor and Loid lacks sex appeal. The vast majority of fan art I see is wholesome which is saying something considering I follow a lot of NSFW artists. MizunoWaveRider said: But I think your analysis of today's ecchi anime is wrong because the ecchi is now incorporated in mainstream shows. It doesn't show tiddies directly so it doesn't count as ecchi, but not counting Dress-up Darling or Rent a Girlfriend as ecchi... like come on. Dude I limited it to the top 5 shows in those seasons. Those were mainstream shows for their time. To Love Ru was much more popular as Rent a Girlfriend. Plus I mean again you can levy that at battle shonen. Devilman was a mainstream title for it's time and way worse than most of the stuff until I think recently when the battle shonen genre has gone back to that edgy violent phase. Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto up to now have always had it. Those were mainstream shows. Familar Zero was a mainstream show. Chobits I don't have listed because I don't remember it well enough but I remember it having a decent amount of fanservice appealing heavily to moe and that was a mainstream rom com at least I remember people talking about it. MizunoWaveRider said: I saw the first season. There was no development, it was the same "he does something unexpected, I blush" from beginning to end. I mean I would say S1 is primarily the comedy side you see more romantic development in S2 and especially in 3 which some didn't like because they wanted more comedy. Granted there is still stuff in S1 that builds their relationship too. Again maybe it's just not for you but I could point to a lot specific scenes that do build the relationship whether that is executed well is up for debate. Yeah who knows. Film still I don't think I will like but maybe it's just a bad adaption. IDK. IDK it means I have a lot of certainty and I largely don't have to waste my time. I am only honestly going to read Akira because again it's so praised and rushed. MizunoWaveRider said: You love to use the word literal and objective huh. Calling Re:Zero that a dark fantasy setting is an insult to actual dark fantasy like Berserk. I thought Subaru was a very mediocre protagonist though I heard he gets more interesting in the second season which I didn't watch. The world was a total joke to me. The white whale chase fight was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen and that villain was just a joke. The best part of the show was during the middle when he was trapped in a loop he couldn't get out of. ? I didn't in the passage you quoted? I give it props for at least creating some mystery behind the witches and the antagonists that I want to see fleshed out more. I mean fair enough but to me I just can't see why some would like Re Zero and not enjoy Subaru. I mean if you don't lol yeah you should hate the show. MizunoWaveRider said: Why are you still saying it's a genre thing for me when I just told you that romance is one of my favorite genres? Are you pretending not to read that? I will say it again: ROMANCE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE GENRES!!! Got it? Again: ROMANCE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE GENRES!!! I hope you were able to read it now so you can stop trying to put forth your agenda that I only like sci-fi and mecha (I don't even like mecha!!! LOL the only mecha I like are NGE and TTGL, maybe Gunbuster). There are even SOL shows I like like Haibane Renmei and NieA Under 7, although I wanted to dive deeper into that genre to find the gems there. Back to topic, I'm not saying that all people will prefer old anime compared to new anime (although you seem the type of guy who might like a lot of older anime), what I'm saying is that there were less anime back then than there are today, while having roughly the same amount of gems. Conclusion: A better good/bad ratio for older anime. I'm not saying you can't like the modern stuff. You can even think Kaguya-sama is a masterpiece for all I care. What I'm saying is that, if you watch all anime that come out every season, then you will watch far more trash in the modern seasons compared to the older seasons, while watching roughly the same amount of goodish shows each season. That's my prediction. Make the test, watch literally everything this season and everything from an earlier season and see what makes you puke earlier. I didn't say romance was irrelevant to old anime? In large though that is what I find people get frustrated we don't have protags like the macho guys from the 80s anymore or that sci fi is dead. If you like SOL in large you are going to be more limited to stuff 2000s and 2010s. Anyway to clarify which fair on my part I am not talking just about you it's just what I have found in the people I have talked to generally. Of course some hate current battle shonen or sports anime which hasn't declined and go back to Slam Dunk over Kuroko or YuYu Hakusho over modern battle shonen. I am just saying generally I often find it is people getting frustrated that certain kinds of titles are not being made. As for liking a lot of older anime I mean I do. I really do appreciate what the medium puts out in the period. I mean ignoring stuff like Yugioh and Pokemon the first "real" anime I watched was the original DB. I loved tons of older cartoons from Hanna Barbara, Looney Toons or stuff from the Golden Age of American animation. In that regard I mean there is no barrier for me. I love the stylization of classic cell shading. I don't have a problem with stuff that isn't HD and on the other hand I also grew up with digital animation and appreciate modern stuff. Even CG when it's done well. So at least I think then I can truly just focus on what the story actually is. I mean I don't deny either there is way more trash. I don't watch everything in a season for good reason. At the end of the day though when I come out of a year often I get quite a lot I did enjoy. In terms of number of gems I mean IDK. I just have more entries for the 2010s more than anything else. Around 100 more than the 2000s and 40 more than the entirety of 70s to 90s. I mean IDK if all of those will be good but that goes both ways. I pretty much scanned every single decade when I was bored and found probably almost everything I would want to watch. In that regard if I found more shows that interested me in the 2010s I can't say that modern anime sucks. Will have to see with the 2020s it's still a pretty new decade. MizunoWaveRider said: That's as if I would say you have a bias against Lain or avant-garde shows because you said in your original comment that you don't want to see a dozen of them each season. I'm fine with ecchi and moe in moderation, but not when it takes over everything. Please try to understand what I'm saying. I mean I would say yeah I do? I mean even I am not really a big horror fan. Interested in Uzumaki artistically but I wouldn't want that to dominate the genre. it doesn't appeal to me largely but it can be fun to occasionally step into those genres. On the other hand I am way more in favor of say war or historical dramas and would like to see that over many high fantasy isekai but that is just the bias I have. Some would want to see nothing but ecchi if they could shape the industry in their own hands. My point is you have a definition of what the industry should be but everyone else also does. Now I would be happy if we saw a massive cut down on isekai and for the industry to give me what i want but how is that fair to everyone else? What matters is financial support and I don't think anyone can complain about that because it's understandable that studios due to the nature of production are on the margins and need to go for what is profitable. MizunoWaveRider said: That's just relativistic bullshit. It's like me saying you just don't like Akira because you have genre bias. You don't like this particular kind of sci-fi. I can literally say this about every single anime ever made. It's just lazy. I mean it's possible though? Certain tropes different ways of explaining the theme, even imagery, the kind of comedy. I probably should stop using the term genre and just say the approach and style of writing. Fact is the rom coms you don't like do share things at least that are now popular. So it isn't the problem of the trope and not the execution of that trope? They are catering to people you either don't like or understand or ideas about romance you don't like. There is a common thread there in regards to how the industry changed in say the rom com genre for the most part. Just used the term genre since it usually works with commonly shared things story to story. MizunoWaveRider said: People can enjoy whatever they want, I never claimed anything else. People are free to watch porn and it's possible to do it while still living a healthy life (just like you can drink alcohol without being an alcoholic). I even said that lol but I guess that was the only part you conveniently happened to ignore because it doesn't support your agenda to frame me as someone who thinks bad of people who like porn. Also, you were ironically the first one to call me out on my favorites and tell me they are bad. Ironic. MizunoWaveRider said: No I don't lol. I say they have the same appeal as porn. The porn addict thing was me strawmanning you. Kay I wouldn't agree but fine we can drop that. My assumption was wrong. MizunoWaveRider said: What do you mean? I just watch that one anime that's good and ignore the 9 bad ones lololol. What do you do? Do you literally watch every anime that comes out every season? No but my whole quote is that in general it's kinda depressing plus even if the show on the outset looks good to your standards there is the risk it won't be good. So if it sucks the impact of hurting your enjoyment of the industry is greater because if the one show doesn't live up to your expectations tough luck because there isn't much else. Personally again I would rather just go to mediums where there seems to be a lot that appeals to me rather than minimal that is a personal thing. Not condemning that you don't do that I just find it very strange. |
BilboBaggins365Jul 29, 2022 12:49 AM
| It's because people just work for the sake of working nowadays (and also to make ends meet) |
 "Only one with the courage to shoulder the burden of their own fate can be called a hero.." |
Pietru said: It's because people just work for the sake of working nowadays (and also to make ends meet) Unfortunstely it is true. They work without end and are paid very little money for this tremendous job. |
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| The staff working for money, of course they make what majority audience want. |
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Real_Akil29 said: Capitalizing on horny edgy teenagers who only watch ecchi harem shit. They don't do this enough, anime would actually be good if they did. |
| Why is Anime bad in recent years, it feels like youre one of those people that think watching 3 shows a season give you enough experience to judge a whole season with over 300 + entries. That's arrogance, pure damn arrogance. Maybe it's time to actually try to scroll down https://myanimelist.net/anime/season when you're on this page. Yeah, I can agree that exist a lot of garbage, but, we do get a lot of good things too. And sadly it feels like youre to arrogant to even scroll down on the site to find the good things. + Seasons has always been like this, it didn't start when Isekai become big, or when cute girls is doing cute things, it started when Anime seasons become a thing. Well, you would know that if you actually had some kind of experience with Anime and scrolling, as we now know, you don't. Post like this pisses me off, when someone that has zero experience in seasons shows and Anime as whole. Think they can judge something without any damn experience. At least try to use the scroll wheel next time youre going into the season shows page. And I'm sure you'r arrogance will disappear with time. |
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BilboBaggins365 said: bobobobobo "Like I don't want to get too off topic on Akira but one thing I never liked is Tetsuo goes pretty quickly from seeing Kaneda as brother figure to wanting to straight up murder him. I mean I guess that is what the supernatural power of Akira which isn't very well explained in the movie?" Tetsue goes against Kaneda because he's in a power-position for the first time in his life. It's a pathetic reason to betray a friend but it's not like the movie tries to present Tetsuo in a positive light. It's just about making a point about how an angsty beta-male with a huge inferiority complex due to always being at the end of the food-chain would abuse the power given to him to feed his own ego. It's the opposite to the typical way it's handled in a lot of fiction where weak people who're given great power would use it to do good things, but ultimately I think it's more realistic that a beta-male would use it to assert dominance. I'm not sure what more explanation is needed. It's supernatural, all explanation would come down to pseudo-science. "Sure there was angst against him but even still murder? Really? People bashed the SW prequels and that was more believable in terms of betrayal." No it's not. The problem in the SW prequels is that the betrayal is based on a prank, and as soon as it becomes clear it was a prank there was no reason for Anakin to stay on the dark side. He joined the dark side because he wanted to save Padme's life, but then she dies anyway and Anakin still stays on the dark side with no motivation left. Tetsuo's betrayal on the other hand was theme-relevant as it ties into the greater commentary of humans abusing power to do evil if they are given the chance. "You have stuff like Kei talking about the meaning of life while they are in prison it's kinda of the same issue I had with GiTS the second film because while nice and all who would be thinking about that in such a time of distress?" Well you said it yourself, they had the time because they were in prison. I don't mind these scenes because the movie is overall very fast-paced, so having a dialogue scene that gives room to breathe is nice imo. It's not like in the second GitS movie where they non-stop monologue about things and then the movie is over. It was short and to the point in Akira. "In large really it just comes down to the pacing is terrible which is why I am considering reading the manga. That doesn't excuse the movie though while A Silent Voice sure cuts a good amount from the manga the plot largely is able to get it's point across and stay consistent." I think the pacing is pretty good for a movie, the issue is more that the story is too big. But I still think it found a good, climactic ending point with Tetsuo's death/ascension (I personally like that we only see glimpses of Akira). And Silent Voice had far greater problems than pacing lol. Though I also thought the introduction (where the protagonist is in elementary school) was quite rushed in that movie. "I mean I don't agree you can get values from history." No you cannot. You can interpret what values the people of the past had, but what values you choose for yourself depends on other factors. "It's going to be the best actual study of human nature and who we are." Who we are is determined by our values, not by our history. History gives insight into what values our ancestors had if you interpret it correctly. And that interpretation can vary vastly based on where you live, and most importantly who won any given war, which is why you shouldn't rely on it. "Of course they don't prevent things from happening but values don't either. Are you saying what Oppenheimer and co would get values from art and then therefore wouldn't use the bomb. Oppenheimer was not exactly for it and everyone in question knew his concerns about literally lighting the atmosphere on fire but they used it anyway. Honestly in actual serious human issues like war values are just ideals not what is a real consideration. People will throw them out the first chance they get if they feel their situation is desperate enough." Oppenheimer was against it because he had values he gained from art. He was a lot into poetry and religious texts, especially hindu scriptures. The issue is that the people who get into positions of power tend to have no values because values are a hinderance when trying to get to the top. You said it yourself, when war happens, values get thrown out of the window. So you admitted it's the lack of values that makes war possible in the first place. Doing war and keeping to one's values is impossible unless your values have holes in them (like the end justifies the means). "Personally all i can say is a book like Ordinary Men or something like Anne Frank which while a story is a non fiction diary is going to be more impactful than say a fictional story about genocide. What is real to me is impactful fiction it's just entertainment nothing more." It's always funny when people say fiction about real events are more meaningful than made-up ones. It's not about if the plot really happened, it's about the arguments. A story featuring real-life events can still provide a false interpretation of said events and people don't get that. They think because it's based on real people, therefore the interpretation is also facts. So if anything it makes it easier to trick people just by saying "this really happened, so pls blindly believe what I'm writing". Now, Anne Frank's book on Eichmann was good, but it was not good because it was based on real-life events. It was good because of the argumentation and interpretation, just like any other story. "Like Tominio can go off on GUP but his war stories that sure depict the tragedy of conflict still are a vehicle to sell basically war toys." The toys are just the capital of the franchise. They are a "necessary evil" so to speak, in a similar manner as fanservice is the necessary evil of today. But since the mechas are essentially just weapons used in war, I think the integration is handled well enough for it to not be distracting. The viewer just has to accept that, instead of using ships or tanks, they use giant humanoid robots to fight. "His characters might self sacrifice and lost a lot but that just makes them heroic martyrs. i have an distance at the end of the day that yeah this all fantasy but I mean when i was watching Hathaway's Flash with all the first person scenes all I could think is wow it would be cool to pilot a machine like this." Yes but that would also be the case if they used realistic weapons instead of mechas. People want to see themselves participate in a war and shoot around with weapons and become a hero. It's the stories job to ground them by showing it's not as fantastical as one imagines. "The one I can name off the top of my head since I saved it would be Natsu no Takenawa. Again for the heads up it's a BL CD series. The person in question is having issues with their own body as a man. I wouldn't say again it's very deep or that most hentai is deep but stories like this can show that if we had longer running times like a full length manga series there is potential to do a lot with the medium. The fact most only last 1 volume in terms of manga limits the potential." Okay I read. I think what limits its potential was that it was still dependent on the attractiveness of the characters to sell it as porn. The character was talking about how he will change but when he came back he still looked the same. If the story had shown guts it would've changed the body considerably to that of a man to the point it becomes impossible to feel the level of attraction one felt before the change, but the story wasn't able to do that because it relied on the character being attractive. Same issue as with most porn stories, it relies on you wanting to see the characters have sex. Also, this manga avoided that problem by having only 2 very short sex scenes which are relatively well integrated, but if it was trying to have porn as its main appeal then it would've had to force more sex scenes in there which would've disrupted the story. As it is, it's a normal story with 10% of it showing sex meant to have the audience fap to it. "Again what is specifically harmful about making erotica of all the possible people out there? Yeah anime/manga is going to be idealized but that is true of everyone in question. The idea that you can be attractive to someone is a great boost of self esteem for a lot of people." My point is that it's meaningless outside of satisfying fetishes. If you're arguing porn should provide variety so everyone has something to fap to... sure, whatever. But I'm saying there is no inherent meaning to saying everyone can be physically attractive. It's setting the wrong priorities. Also, no. Self-esteem is when you are NOT reliant on being attractive to others. If you hate yourself unless someone finds you attractive then you have low self-esteem. But porn will always set the priority on physical attraction because it's necessary for being fappable. "Well again it's because they think they have no chance with whatever sexual identity they want to pursue. This could be a multiple of problems their own lack of effort in taking care of themselves or the overall again situation of society. Like you ever wonder why Japan has so many NEETS and otaku that pursue this hmmm maybe it's just the general isolation of their society that a lot in the West are getting to." There are always three factors at play: Society, the media and the individual. There is often a discrepancy between the needs of the individual and the needs of society. The individual wants to express themselves and society people to be a certain way so it's stable. What media does now is that it sees this discrepancy and uses it to make a profit. You can argue whom to blame here, society, the media or the individual - In my eyes all three have responsibility. Society should stop pushing people over the edge, the media should stop making a profit off of people's misery, and the individual should make an effort to resist the temptations of society and media trying to use them as livestock. "Also the issue is that you are arguing porn itself is addictive when addictions are a psychological problem, People with addictions if you simply cut one thing out they might turns to drugs or alcholol to fill the emptiness." I don't say porn itself is addictive, I'm saying some people are addicted to porn. And by addicted to it, I mean people are suffering because of it. I'm not saying their brain changes or that they get erectile dysfunction. There is a desensitization to it but that's the nature of doing something too often. You need stronger and stronger versions to get the same thrill (which I assume is why porn gets pretty fucked up after a while). And I'm also saying porn is unnecessary, the only reason people watch porn is if they can't have the real thing or are dissatisfied with the real thing. "I would say there probably is as I would argue you can get addicted to literally anything" It depends on how you define addiction. It's a pretty flexible term. If you say that physical withdrawal symptoms decide if something is an addiction or not then porn doesn't count as one I would say. But obviously you can do everything too much to the point it harms your life. I would even go so far and argue that most people are addicted to work, which is why so many people get depressed once they are too old. I even know a few people who killed themselves because they saw no point in living anymore now that they are not needed anymore. "but it's like saying in order to fight alcoholism prohibition was a great idea or drugs the war on drugs." The issue is that it makes too much money. Same for porn. But just because banning doesn't solve the issue doesn't mean we should leave it alone. "There isn't anything wrong with engaging in said erotica like with all things in a limited fashion." We were specifically talking about people who aren't doing that. Also, you put too much responsibility on the individual. Fighting temptations is not as easy as you claim, and I think society has a responsibility to not unnecessarely tempt people. If you have the same ad running on TV 24/7 then you can't say that had nothing to do with why the product in the ad is bought a lot. "You could argue some of the people you talk to aren't but again that goes back to the great social issue of loneliness and dooming defeatism and lack of effort some have. I don't think at least getting 2 or 3 popular ecchi titles is contributing to such a thing." It's the sum of it all that contributes to it. Society sucking, individual problems and media abusing those individual problems to make a profit. "I mean isn't that the point of media?" To kill creativity? The point of media is obviously to make a profit. Some make a profit by bettering people's lifes by connecting them to society, others make a profit by abusing people's misery by disconnecting them from society. And the problem of the latter is that it actively wants people to be in misery so that it can keep making a profit. "How is watching a deep show actually going to improve my creativity" You didn't understand my point. The point is that entertainment media (not art!) has the only purpose to get rid of people's boredom, and boredom is a prime trigger of creativity. So in other words, the only purpose of entertainment media is to kill creativity. Now I want you to tell me what other purpose entertainment media has to justify the need for entertainment media. "How is watching a deep show actually going to improve my creativity you would be better to start drawing yourself, playing an instrument yourself etc." Art has multiple purposes. For one it makes the world a more aesthetically pleasing place. That's the most obvious purpose. The second more abstract purpose is that it acts as a counter-force to the polarizing nature of politics (especially in the modern times). The purpose of politics is to simplify the world into easily managable junks so a system can be manuvered into a desired direction. It's necessary, but the problem is that one can lose sight of the great picture in the process. The purpose of art is to bring back the complexity to the consciousness of people which quickly gets lost in the simplifying process of politics. It's a reminder that the system should serve the individual and not vice versa. Here's an example: In your hentai story, the story attempts to highlight the individual problems of a person ignored by society. By sympathizing with the individual, one can see the person behind the issue. "Personally sure I enjoy LOTGH more than say a lot of ecchi but at the end of the day I can't honestly look in the mirror and say one actually benefited me. I was looking to enjoy myself and waste time and that is what I did." And what would you do if couldn't sit down and watch TV? Or play games? Or listen to music? How would you waste your time then? "I am not saying works that explore the deeper aspects of human nature shouldn't be valued but if that is all you focus on you lack variety and things get boring you need variety. Sometimes all I want is a dopamine rush and I am going to congratulate media that does it the best in providing such the same as say a deep work is able to look at human society. They serve different purposes but I think for a lot of people both is necessary." But why do you need dopamine rushes from watching TV? Why are drugs necessary? (you basically say it serves the same function as drugs, right?) "All of that yes is like your typical fanservice of the past that you would find in Gunbuster or Touch." Nah it's not lol. Have you seen Dress-up Darling? There is nothing to it despite fanservice. And Chainsaw Man I already commented on it. MHA I'm actually not that sure, I have just seen some really disturbing fan stuff but not sure if that's representative of the show. "Why not just write it off then as typical ecchi/hentai esque trash then." Well for Dress-up Darling I do. Chainsaw Man I like, MHA is a bad shounen. "The 90s had hentai like The Rapeman and VNs like Rance lol. Lolicon stuff you could find as well." And? They are parodies. And they are still extremely tame compared to the modern hentai stuff you got. Extremely tame. Modern hentai is infamous for the fat ugly bastard thing or shota stuff. And modern rance is also much more degenerate than old rance, which was more like a porn version of looney toons (there are some really absurdly animated scenes in there). But I'm not sure why you brought that up, I wasn't even taking hentai into consideration. "I would say that to me it feels less like anti porn and more just attacking the idea of fetishes." The message of CSM is that Denshi was simping for an abusive chick who didn't actually care for him just because she was hot and promised sex while disregarding the people that actually cared for him and let them be killed by her. It shits on the current simping trend that's going on in anime and manga with the waifu nonsense, and it completely went over the head of everyone. It's a good message, Fujimoto is smart, his fans are idiots who simp for the villain. "Well you go back to Cardcaptor a series that isn't I would say fanservice but I could make the same accusation at Clamp as some of those uniforms not really appropriate for a young girl. Even non ecchi titles the creatives and fans can do iffy things." That's just the my little pony syndrome lul, the magical girl fanbase also exists of either little girls or adult dudes. "At the end of the day doesn't change that SxF is popular but beyond typical romance teasing with Yor and Loid lacks sex appeal. The vast majority of fan art I see is wholesome which is saying something considering I follow a lot of NSFW artists." Yeah whatever, I don't have that much problems with SxF outside of it not doing anything interesting. It's not a show where I would call the fanservice police lul. But again, you still seem to think I have a general problem with fanservice, which is not true. Having a little is fine, it depends on if it gets to the point of being distracting. If it's well integrated and not overshadowing everything I'm totally okay with it. "Dude I limited it to the top 5 shows in those seasons. Those were mainstream shows for their time. To Love Ru was much more popular as Rent a Girlfriend. Plus I mean again you can levy that at battle shonen. Devilman was a mainstream title for it's time and way worse than most of the stuff until I think recently when the battle shonen genre has gone back to that edgy violent phase. Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto up to now have always had it. Those were mainstream shows. Familar Zero was a mainstream show. Chobits I don't have listed because I don't remember it well enough but I remember it having a decent amount of fanservice appealing heavily to moe and that was a mainstream rom com at least I remember people talking about it." I think you're missing the point there. Dress-up Darling, Rent a Girlfriend, Nagatoro, Uzaki-chan... I count those as ecchi because titilation is the main appeal. MiA, Mushoku, Devilman, Chobits... I don't count those as ecchi because the main appeal is something else. If the fanservice is distracting in those depends on how well it's integrated. For Devilman I don't have much of an issue with the fanservice in particular because it fits the fucked up story (I also have a hard time seeing that as fanservice due to the artstyle). For Chobits, I only read the manga and the fanservice, while a little annoying at times, didn't bother me too much (again, the crude art-style helps). For MiA I find it distracting because at its core it's a child adventure through a fantasy world, so having all that disgusting pedo stuff is really hampering that appeal. For MT, the problem is that comedy is contrary to the protagonist's development. They want to keep doing the pedo jokes and at the same time they want to emphasize the protagonist's willingness to change... it just doesn't work. As for shounen... Those are usually not that big of a problem for me when it comes to fanservice. They usually have a beach episode, but whatever lol. Let the teens have some fun. "I mean I would say S1 is primarily the comedy side you see more romantic development in S2 and especially in 3 which some didn't like because they wanted more comedy." That's fair I guess, though I don't think I'm going to watch more. "Yeah who knows. Film still I don't think I will like but maybe it's just a bad adaption. IDK." Or MaYbE iT's JuSt NoT fOr YoU "IDK it means I have a lot of certainty and I largely don't have to waste my time. I am only honestly going to read Akira because again it's so praised and rushed." It could also mean you're stuck in your ways. "? I didn't in the passage you quoted?" Well you said "literal story", I guess you meant "literary story"? " I give it props for at least creating some mystery behind the witches and the antagonists that I want to see fleshed out more. I mean fair enough but to me I just can't see why some would like Re Zero and not enjoy Subaru. I mean if you don't lol yeah you should hate the show." Well I assume all Re:Zero fans like Subaru. But I'm not a Re:Zero fan lol. Though my issues are not just Subaru. I think he's... better than Kirito? lol "I didn't say romance was irrelevant to old anime?" Bro I mentioned LOGH (space opera), Lain (cyberpunk), NGE (mecha), Haibane Renmei (SOL), Koi Kaze (romance), Cowboy Bebop (space western), Escaflowne (isekai), Berserk (dark fantasy) and some more I probably don't remember. It has nothing to do with genres. Stop being so fixated on genres xD Is it really so hard to not try to pigeonhole me or stereotype me? "In large though that is what I find people get frustrated we don't have protags like the macho guys from the 80s anymore or that sci fi is dead." I don't think that's the problem. Shinji was not a macho guy yet people think highly of him. What people want is interesting characters. Like, people don't like something based on concept, aka it's not like "give them a macho and they will automatically like that character". As you said very early on, it's all about execution. Some are just better executed than others, period. I can like a whiny character and I can like a macho character, it just depends on execution. Just as I can like an SOL and a mecha, it just depends on execution. "I am just saying generally I often find it is people getting frustrated that certain kinds of titles are not being made." I think it comes down to variety and execution. I don't have a problem with ecchi in general, just when there is so much, in the same way you have no problem with avant garde shows unless there's too much every season, right? Like right now, people are annoyed by isekai mainly because there are so many isekai. If there was like no isekai for a while and then one appeared, I don't think anyone would complain about it as they do now. What I'm currently missing in terms of variety are the gems. Like this season... what gem is there lol. I will watch the trash romances because, again, they are my guilty pleasure, but outside of that, there is nothing that genuinely interests me. "As for liking a lot of older anime I mean I do. I really do appreciate what the medium puts out in the period. I mean ignoring stuff like Yugioh and Pokemon the first "real" anime I watched was the original DB. I loved tons of older cartoons from Hanna Barbara, Looney Toons or stuff from the Golden Age of American animation. In that regard I mean there is no barrier for me. I love the stylization of classic cell shading. I don't have a problem with stuff that isn't HD and on the other hand I also grew up with digital animation and appreciate modern stuff. Even CG when it's done well." Yeah same for the most part. I think the older animation and general look is unappealing to a lot of modern fans. Which is fine, I'm not telling anyone they are supposed to like the old look. For the stories I'm actually not sure if people would like the older ones. I assume they would have a problem with the slower pacing. I also think a very underrated aspect is the community interactions. Many people watch anime to talk about it with others and seasonal anime gain a lot of their appeal from that. "So at least I think then I can truly just focus on what the story actually is. I mean I don't deny either there is way more trash. I don't watch everything in a season for good reason. At the end of the day though when I come out of a year often I get quite a lot I did enjoy. In terms of number of gems I mean IDK. I just have more entries for the 2010s more than anything else. Around 100 more than the 2000s and 40 more than the entirety of 70s to 90s. I mean IDK if all of those will be good but that goes both ways. I pretty much scanned every single decade when I was bored and found probably almost everything I would want to watch. In that regard if I found more shows that interested me in the 2010s I can't say that modern anime sucks. Will have to see with the 2020s it's still a pretty new decade." I mean I always watch the highlights of each new season but not all of them I would consider gems. They are watchable but forgettable for the most part. Generally, I think people like anime more the earlier they watch it. Like people have more emotional attachement to shows if they were their first. Generally speaking, there are exceptions of course. And I think the favorite lists usually reflect that. "I mean I would say yeah I do?" What I mean is, if Uzumaki were to come out, you wouldn't lash out on it, right? But if 40 Uzumakis came out, you would probably be annoyed by it. Same goes for me and ecchi. I don't mind ecchi unless there's too much of it. "I mean even I am not really a big horror fan. Interested in Uzumaki artistically but I wouldn't want that to dominate the genre." The genre? Do you mean the whole anime medium? "On the other hand I am way more in favor of say war or historical dramas and would like to see that over many high fantasy isekai but that is just the bias I have." Then how about the industry takes some of the isekai out and replaces them with historical war dramas? Wouldn't that be... better? Because more variety? "My point is you have a definition of what the industry should be but everyone else also does." Yeah in my eyes it should have every single genre at the highest quality possible. One of each. That would be dope. "Now I would be happy if we saw a massive cut down on isekai and for the industry to give me what i want but how is that fair to everyone else?" What do you mean? I think the isekai fans would survive a few less isekai each season, and most anime fans would celebrate. "What matters is financial support and I don't think anyone can complain about that because it's understandable that studios due to the nature of production are on the margins and need to go for what is profitable." What do you mean nobody can complain about that? xD It's a huge problem. The anime industry is holding itself over water by producing isekai garbage, and all the while the anime fans who don't want to see isekai garbage all stop watching. That's also what happened to the light novel industry. It's sad. "I mean it's possible though? Certain tropes different ways of explaining the theme, even imagery, the kind of comedy. I probably should stop using the term genre and just say the approach and style of writing. Fact is the rom coms you don't like do share things at least that are now popular. So it isn't the problem of the trope and not the execution of that trope? They are catering to people you either don't like or understand or ideas about romance you don't like. There is a common thread there in regards to how the industry changed in say the rom com genre for the most part. Just used the term genre since it usually works with commonly shared things story to story." No it's not, it's an argument that's only used when it's convenient to you, aka when you're in a corner. Then you hammer out the last resort, aka "that's just like your opinion man". Like no shit it's my opinion, but not all opinions are equal. If someone tells you nagatoro is better than LOGH then you totally have the right to tell that person he's fkn idiot, because he is. LOGH is super ambitious, has extreme effort in writing and worldbuilding and dialogue and meaning, and nagatoro is a lazy episodic romcom with shitty dialogue no meaning no worldbuilding, nothing. Like come on, don't insult the people who put in so much effort to create a piece of art by saying a lazy rom-com did an equally good job just by satisfying a fetish. Like why even try at this point, just give anime fans a gyaru sucking nerd c*** and relativism will do the rest. "No but my whole quote is that in general it's kinda depressing plus even if the show on the outset looks good to your standards there is the risk it won't be good. So if it sucks the impact of hurting your enjoyment of the industry is greater because if the one show doesn't live up to your expectations tough luck because there isn't much else. Nah it's just anime dude. You're overdramatizing it. Plus I already told you I have guilty pleasures. Just because I think something is bad doesn't mean I cannot enjoy it. "Personally again I would rather just go to mediums where there seems to be a lot that appeals to me rather than minimal that is a personal thing. Not condemning that you don't do that I just find it very strange." But why do you think I don't do that? Like you do know that a person can have multiple hobbies at the same time, right? Why do you assume I have no other hobbies? |
| This isn't a recent thing, there are tons of older anime that are like this |
 _______I like rocks__  |
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