One Piece Chapter 862 Discussion

Prince said:
Brûlée clones or Nami's Mirage Tempo. Place your bets folks.

Drake1000 said:
That's a really shaky twist there.
"your third eye is cute"
Her realistic reaction would be, yeah right pal nice lies, now have a bullet between your eyes, instead she starts crying cuz no one ever told her that before and she was bullied for it, how old is Pudding again? is she like 4 years old or something? this is not an adult or even a teenager reaction, this is someone you deemed worth killing and planned to do so but just because he compliments you, "oh god I'm so touched I'm gonna drop down and cry my eyes out! screw the plan!"

Isterio said:
Awesome chapter 5/5. No one believed this would happen
My job is done here!

HalibelTheEspada said:
L

It's funny, cause from what I've seen, you said she'd turn out to be a good guy, and that Oda was just playing mind-games with the readers. That's nothing like what happened. Unless you think it's somehow all black and white and she has to be either solely evil, or purely good.

She was surprised by his words, it doesn't mean she's been secretly good this whole time. She murders people for teasing her... not your most stable, kindhearted person.

Even funnier is that the last words you said to me was stating that I "think" you hate this series. It's ironic that all I ever said to you in the past was that I believed you liked the series, just that you refused to let others have opinions. However by your reaction here it proves once and for all that you do hate this series, and all you're good for is trash talking it, and its fans. You literally waited til the moment the chapter released to belittle others and call this bullshit, when you weren't even right.

Don't act like a dick, when it's not even close to what you said would happen. What just happened was about the only alternative to the things that you said would make it shit if they actually happened.

Jarjaxle said:
and WHAT!? CLones...what the hell....Nami's skill surely but what....Great Chapter and Color Page in next issue

Z4k said:
Pudding suddenly has insecurities over her third eye? Wait what? Did I miss a chapter or something because I never noticed that's how she felt about her third eye? The change of heart felt very contrived.

ToG25thBaam said:
Some analysis from reddit

I recommend everyone who didn't like the sudden new revelation regarding Pudding's backstory to give this a read.

ToG25thBaam said:
@HalibelTheEspada
I remember you told me you don't really go on other One Piece forum except for MAL, I would highly suggest One Piece reddit, it's a great place for One Piece fans.

thebrentinator24 said:
.

How did Sanji dodge that jelly bean shot? Is his Kenbunshoku also advanced like Katakuri's?.

HalibelTheEspada said:
You know, I'll just go ahead and accept that you probably did, somewhere along the lines say that it was possible. I don't have the time or patience to go through all your posts, so I'll just admit that I'm wrong about that, and you probably did say that.

I didn't miss the link, I just didn't add it, because it takes up a lot of space for my already lengthy post, so I just mentioned it instead.

I wouldn't say that you gave "vague" descriptions, you definitely went into a lot of detail. I do know that you gave a ton more possibilities than that, though, and none of them did you consider good. If everything is considered bullshit to you, you're only gonna get bullshit. You're gonna have to accept that not every single thing that happens is going to be above being predicted.

Why do you need to focus only on the few things you don't like? The rare times I've seen you say anything good is maybe just a line or two. I never see you going into detail about anything that you like. There's 100 other things going on in this arc, and the one thing you care about is the one thing that only had a few ways it could go.

I think anyone who didn't at least consider this a possibility is just clueless. If you think it's so bad it's good, fine. I don't intend to single you out, you're just the most vocal about your grievances, and you rarely say anything good, it's hard to take anything you say as mere criticism.

Isterio said:
Well to avoid lengthy discussion I´ll just point out what developments in One Piece I loved in recent history, honest 10/10 material. First there is the Trafalgar Law flashback. It gave a former minor character enough personality to rival that of the main characters of the series. Prior to the flashback, Law was a smart, calculating, introvert rival of Luffy that saved his life during a crucial moment in the story for unknown reasons. We also knew that he had a grudge against Doflamingo that was strong enough for him to go through decade long preparation to kill him. The flashback not only answered all the questions towards his reasoning,

Taito10 said:
I expected something better, meh.

3/5

Sanji is pathetic.

OnePieceGr8ness said:


Yeah man, so pathetic of him to stick to his morals and ethics ever since Water 7's "a man must always forgive a woman's lies" after Pudding vehemently challenged it, thus being rewarded when he saw beauty in her.

So totally pathetic and not at all character development...

Also, let's ignore him dodging a bullet from a man who can see the future cause why not...

BurstChaos said:


It would have been character development if Sanji had actually hit her, in what way is this any meaningful character development? Pudding is the pathetic one, he said four words and she started bawling her eyes out when just a couple of seconds ago she was planning on laughing whilst he suffered. This was just terrible writing all around, on par with Irene's shitty twist in FT.

OnePieceGr8ness said:


Sanji hitting women would *objectively* be character regression. There's literally no way you can misconstrue this.

It's like Spider-Man just ditching his 'With great power, comes great responsibility' principle.

Sanji's is 'A man must always forgive a woman's lies.' The entire point of Pudding's character was to challenge that belief; make Sanji break his oath. And he didn't. So we saw the EXTENT of his valour and tenacity. That's called character development.

BurstChaos said:


If spider-man did break his principle, he would have to have a good reason to do so. It's not like he just went out of his way to kill people, but if he has a good reason to do so and is conflicted about it, that would be character development. Going against your code doesn't make character regression.

In Sanji's case, we already know the extent of his principle when he stood there getting beaten up by that girl in Enies Lobby and Violet and I think against Monet; we didn't need more proof that he would just stick to his rules. Oh, and Sanji's bullshit code gets challenged every single time he meets a girl, we don't need the same lesson again and again just to see the same result, that's not character development, that's just doing the same thing over and over, that's insanity (heh).

So basically, what your saying is that Pudding is exactly like the others because she serves the exact same purpose yet this time she was aspulled into becoming good.

OnePieceGr8ness said:


Going against your code is absolutely character regression because it alleviates the purpose of establishing the code to begin with. It really isn't rocket science.

Sanji refusing to hit a random Enies Lobby agent because she's female and him choosing to ignore the lies of a woman who has been established as an emotional manipulator and soon-to-be murderor of his entire family is different. One is an extremity; relying on inextricable thematic links to Sanji's whole character and the other is a simple challenge to the physicallity of his principle. Pudding's was a mental/ethical challenge.

When characters meet extremes, they gain character development. We knew Zoro would sacrifice his life to save Luffy, he's showcased many similar traits before Thriller Bark's "nothing happened" moment but that doesn't diminish that moment's place as quintessential character development for Zoro because that's the EXTREME result. Much like how it can be topped again if Zoro actually sacrifices his life, it would make people seem him higher than he already is.

BurstChaos said:


When characters meet extremes, they do no gain character development. That's just giving the same lessons again and again.

I can't believe I'm actually arguing with someone named One Piece whatever about One Piece sucking.

OnePieceGr8ness said:


lmaooo you legit unironically resorted to the "ANIEM AVI" rebuttal, I'm done.

I'll part with this factual knowledge since it flew over your thick head; 'character development' does not necessarily insinuate 'change' or 'learning new lessons'.

OnePieceGr8ness said:


Going against your code is absolutely character regression because it alleviates the purpose of establishing the code to begin with. It really isn't rocket science.

Sanji refusing to hit a random Enies Lobby agent because she's female and him choosing to ignore the lies of a woman who has been established as an emotional manipulator and soon-to-be murderor of his entire family is different. One is an extremity; relying on inextricable thematic links to Sanji's whole character and the other is a simple challenge to the physicallity of his principle. Pudding's was a mental/ethical challenge.

ashfrliebert said:

Pudding WAS a mental and ethical challenge, yes, but it's not that different when Sanji refused to hit Kalfia, the life of Robin was on the line that time too. (obviously besides the fact that he was awarded for it)

The whole point of this was obvious anyway, the one time Sanji's morals and principles are most likely to bite him in the ass in the most major of ways, it doesn't. This is the EXACT same thing he did with Viola, not sure why it's that surprising.

I would have much preferred if it was subverted this time around, but it's not even remotely surprising.

This is only what already happened with Viola, it's what happened with fucking Gin back in Volume 6 when Sanji was first introduced. Straw-Hat does a kind thing to once evil person and is rewarded with it. Those were are different because it was much much faster before the buildup came in.

It's EXACT same thing Sanji has gone through over and over. Because no one got it the first time. It's perfectly fine by itself, it's just so damn annoying for it to happen the what, fourth time?

And I mean, out of all the times you take this kind of angle, it's in Totland? I guess it was supposed to reflect on Big Mom's hypocrisy, but come on, you have talking candy and crocodiles.

edit: rest of the chapter was great. But Pudding's reasoning just seems thin, tried and true. It makes her a more interesting character, I guess.

OnePieceGr8ness said:



"Straw-Hat does a kind thing to once evil person and is rewarded." - that's an incredibly general way of putting it.

"The one time his morals are most likely to bite him in the ass, it doesn't." That's my whole point. The more likely it is, the more you question wether or not Sanji is just gonna betray his and his mentor's ethics; to the point where people are actually accepting of him to do it. But he didn't. Because he's that strong of a character.

For a person with Johan Liebert on his pic, I doubt you understand what makes Monster so great either. The fact that Tenma's morals get reinstated over and over again is the same with Sanji. SPOILERS: In the end, he didn't even get to shoot Johan which was actually incredibly mature and brilliant writing because it emphasised how strong Dr. Tenma's valour and code of honour was.

Now, Naoki Ursawa is a more sophisticated and talented writer so he was able to disguise the scenarios better but it's the same case.

ashfrliebert said:

Sanji does chivalrous thing to once evil person and is rewarded.


Yes, I'm aware that's "Oda's" whole point, in particular, that's why I mentioned it. And I find it repetitive.



It's alot easier to take Tenma's moral struggle of life and death seriously (and respectfully) then it is Sanji moral struggle of chivalry. And I find it far more fascinating. It's One Piece, I get that being silly is the "point", but you can only go so far. Tenma alone is a much more interesting character than Sanji (not as fun as character though), and his struggle is more...humanlike and relatable. His moral struggle between life and death...hits you more than Sanji's moral struggle between chivalry and "oh my god my abusive family's going to die". Know what I'm saying?


I don't find it badly written, a character's morals are tested to the brink, and at the time where they are at their very lowest, their morals win out, this was clearly "the point" of these past 60 chapters. I understand what he's trying to do. I simply find it DONE.

Johan alone is a vastly more interesting character than Pudding, but I highly doubt anyone who's read both would disagree with me here.

HalibelTheEspada said:


So as not to get off track of the OP though, I'll just say that while it was a predictable outcome, I still think it was satisfying to see, and was within reason. I'm sure if she had more time to think it over, she would've gone with the plan anyway, but it got too hectic too fast. I honestly feel like Sanji somewhat planned that, despite how retarded he was acting. I think it was genuine, but had he not already known she had a 3rd eye, he might've actually been shocked for a minute.

MoonStar9 said:
Great chapter. Katakuri's hype took a dive though. Has OP precog but still gets dodged? Or should I take this as a feat for Sanji? Also, not fond of Pudding's backstory. There are Minks, Giants, Fishmen, Dwarves, and long-limbed tribesmen among all consorts of DF users but a third eye is freaky? I can't swallow that one. Still really engrossing chapter, and Sanji did something cool so I'm happy as well.

blfan said:
That is all it took to get Pudding to stop her murder ambition, and maybe not sway her to our side but at least not be helping Big Ma is saying your eye is beautiful, part of me thinks that is brilliant writing, another part of me really that is kind of lame and anti climatic. I hate to bring this compassion up, but I have to mention if this was Fairy Tail and Pudding was a Fairy Tail villain that turned because of this, everyone would be screaming to high heaven, this is terrible, Hiro Mashima is a terrible writer, but since this is One Piece everyone is going to phrasing it, Oda is a genius.