| You're flailing. Gasping and jumping with all your might the discomfort is overwhelming. Your instinct is telling you you might be about to die. Then crash, your consciousness slips. Just like that, death. Fish are murdered all the time and this is the case for any animal used as human food. We surely can't ignore the fact that it's murder. Am I vegetarian? No. If someone doesn't buy that pork then another person will. That's not how you affect change anyway. You need political movements for that. But in the future do you think humans will have ceased killing animals for food? And if so, when do you think this will happen? What are your views on all this? |
| No, people can't survive on lettuce. Fish are food, not friends. |
Autocrat said: Fish are murdered all the time and this is the case for any animal used as human food. We surely can't ignore the fact that it's murder. Murder refers to the killing of a human (without justification). Most of us ain't cannibals, so it is in fact, not murder. Autocrat said: Am I vegetarian? No. If someone doesn't buy that pork then another person will. That's not how you affect change anyway. You need political movements for that. If you actually believed it was wrong, then you wouldn't eat meat. If someone doesn't buy that pork, then that marginally decreases overall demand of pork, and will thus affect the overall supply of pork (production), however minorly. And political movements are probably (one of) the least effective ways to approach it, as eating meat currently has minimal effect on general human well-being. You'd have to join a social movement, many of which do exist. Autocrat said: But in the future do you think humans will have ceased killing animals for food? And if so, when do you think this will happen? What are your views on all this? I mean, we might start growing the flesh in vats. |
MortalMelancholyJan 13, 2017 1:24 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| In risk of appearing as a greentextfag; >murder |
| I think they would genetically engineer dumber animals so it's more ethical to kill them. There also would be laboratory grown meat. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| No, because in hindsight, it's more ethical to kill animals than scientifically create meat. |
MortalMelancholy said: Murder refers to the killing of a human (without justification). Most of us ain't cannibals, so it is in fact, not murder. If we are supposed to be moral beings then we can't just dismiss the killing of a sentient creature as being a form of killing that is somehow not murder. That's just shallow semantics and self-justification. MortalMelancholy said: If you actually believed it was wrong, then you wouldn't eat meat. Not quite. Meat has benefits for the human body and I care about these benefits. I won't kill other sentient creatures if I can help it, but that ever-so-marginal difference of not buying meat is negligible in the face of the greater benefits it can offer my body and health. I'll wait for an alternative to meat. |
| If it ever happens then people will start shouting about feelings of plants. |
Terkhev said: If it ever happens then people will start shouting about feelings of plants. Impossible. They're not sentient and thus that argument would have no rational basis. That's just being silly. |
Autocrat said: MortalMelancholy said: Murder refers to the killing of a human (without justification). Most of us ain't cannibals, so it is in fact, not murder. If we are supposed to be moral beings then we can't just dismiss the killing of a sentient creature as being a form of killing that is somehow not murder. That's just shallow semantics and self-justification. No, it's just semantics, which are clearly defined when it comes to the word "murder." You just can't accurately call it murder, says my grammar Nazi side; nothing more, and nothing less. MortalMelancholy said: If you actually believed it was wrong, then you wouldn't eat meat. Autocrat said: Not quite. Meat has benefits for the human body and I care about these benefits. I won't kill other sentient creatures if I can help it, but that ever-so-marginal difference of not buying meat is negligible in the face of the greater benefits it can offer my body and health. I'll wait for an alternative to meat. Lol meat offers no health benefits compared to vegetarian alternatives, and on the contrary, meat is overall unhealthy, with some specific varieties increasing the likelihood of health problems. Morality aside, perhaps you'll reconsider becoming a vegetarian? If only for your body and health? Autocrat said: Terkhev said: If it ever happens then people will start shouting about feelings of plants. Impossible. They're not sentient and thus that argument would have no rational basis. That's just being silly. I feel worse for the plants I eat than animals. Animals are dirty; because they are sentient; a selfish will to live, capacity and intent for malice, and innards filled with the remains of what they ate. |
MortalMelancholyJan 13, 2017 2:21 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
Autocrat said: Terkhev said: If it ever happens then people will start shouting about feelings of plants. Impossible. They're not sentient and thus that argument would have no rational basis. That's just being silly. Actually there already are theories about that. I mean stories like trees specific behavior when wood is being chopped down etc. And you know, science aside, people WILL bitch about everything. Look at things like anityvaxers and similar movements. |
| Im sorry to say that i dont see that happening anytime soon, im not a person to really talk i do wish the best for animals but im not going to stop eating them anytime soon, dont see most other eople stoping anytime soon either |
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| I'm not a vegan/vegetarian. And I hate people that want to stop me from eating meat. But on the other hand I'm not against new/modern technology. I guess sometime in the future it might be possible to "grow" meat in the laboratory without having to raise a full animal which has brain and is feeling pain. I'd try that then. Might also be more hygienic if the laboratory environment is kept clean. But it would have to look a bit like real meat then (marbled!) - that might be the challenge to make it possible to produce it looking/feeling exactly like that. |
| I don't care. Animals are stupid. And we need meat. Such a giant industry like that isn't going to disappear. Same as any big industry. We have children inventing extremely cheap ways to find out early stages of multiple types of cancer but you don't see that shit being used, as pharmaceutical companies want to keep selling you expensive drugs. Meat companies are gonna keep selling you meat for as long as there are animals. We won't stop killing them until they're all dead, and i'll be long gone by that so i don't care. Our bodies have evolved on us eating both plants and meat. Our digestive systems are well equipped to make full use of the fats, proteins and nutrients found in animal foods, and that cannot simply be fully made up for, not even in the long future. |
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| incest and Arachnids yummy yum ^_^ enjoy future people |
lewd is love, lewd is life ! |
| I am fairly certain some crazy person is working on growing synthetic meat (but you know, still real meat) in a petri dish, right now. Fit for human consumption. To which you will also protest as immoral. You just can not win. D: |
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Interrrrrpetgyu said: No, people can't survive on lettuce. Fish are food, not friends. I don't know anyone who survives on just "lettuce" :P |
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MortalMelancholy said: No, it's just semantics, which are clearly defined when it comes to the word "murder." You just can't accurately call it murder, says my grammar Nazi side; nothing more, and nothing less. Fair enough, I never realised this. I'll just change the word to slaughter. There, problem solved. MortalMelancholy said: Lol meat offers no health benefits compared to vegetarian alternatives, and on the contrary, meat is overall unhealthy, with some specific varieties increasing the likelihood of health problems. http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/fresh-ideas/healthy-dinners/health-benefits-of-meat-poultry-and-fish-ga.htm I'll just leave this here to save explaining things. Do you still have a problem with the health benefits in meat? MortalMelancholy said: I feel worse for the plants I eat than animals. Animals are dirty; because they are sentient; a selfish will to live, capacity and intent for malice, and innards filled with the remains of what they ate. It is irrational to feel sorry for plants because they have no sentient capacity. And those qualities you spoke about are some of which makes us human. Do you also hold human beings in disdain? If that were the case I'd have no interest in such childish drivel. |
| Mhhh, this is interesting if you ask me, I guess it would be very interesting to look at after 5-15 years from now. Genetically engineered foods is what I've heard recently... But well... I dunno... |
Autocrat said: MortalMelancholy said: Lol meat offers no health benefits compared to vegetarian alternatives, and on the contrary, meat is overall unhealthy, with some specific varieties increasing the likelihood of health problems. http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/fresh-ideas/healthy-dinners/health-benefits-of-meat-poultry-and-fish-ga.htm I'll just leave this here to save explaining things. Do you still have a problem with the health benefits in meat? I don't know if you're trying to bs me, or if you actually think there are health benefits to eating meat. For one, that article doesn't list any. Second, meat contains unhealthy fats (saturated fat, cholesterol, etc) that contribute to cardiovascular problems, contain higher concentrations of man-made toxins (biomagnification), and is more likely to contain disease or parasites. Third, there is no such nutrition that is exclusive to meat. Autocrat said: MortalMelancholy said: I feel worse for the plants I eat than animals. Animals are dirty; because they are sentient; a selfish will to live, capacity and intent for malice, and innards filled with the remains of what they ate. It is irrational to feel sorry for plants because they have no sentient capacity. And those qualities you spoke about are some of which makes us human. Do you also hold human beings in disdain? If that were the case I'd have no interest in such childish drivel. I'm aware that I'm a bit abnormally minded (insane), and yes, of course I hold the greatest disdain for humans above all. And don't try to pull that bs talk on me; you'd have no interest in my personal musings regardless, and I have even less of an interest in your petty conceit. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Probably not, animals are too tasty and nutritive to stop. |
| It'll never happen lol. Even me, who goes on "plant-based" diets for weeks at a time, can tell you that humans as a species will never stop eating meat. Ever. Its how humans have lived for thousands or even millions of years. Its in our subconscious nature to always eat meat. The argument I hear all the time is "What if I you get murdered and eaten like that?". Then that shit happens. It means that humans are no longer at the top of the food chain. I'm not going to neglect evolution. |
| Veganism will be very accessible, and hopefully documentaries about the earths impact will be taken seriously. Men are also linked to display aggression when it comes to eating meat. That's why people are edgy and respond to veganism as a stupid social movement, or show pictures of bacon sandwiches. With females and males who can debate there's better chance. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Saediss said: Scientifically we're not at the top of the food chain, that's just a social construction. It'll never happen lol. Even me, who goes on "plant-based" diets for weeks at a time, can tell you that humans as a species will never stop eating meat. Ever. Its how humans have lived for thousands or even millions of years. Its in our subconscious nature to always eat meat. The argument I hear all the time is "What if I you get murdered and eaten like that?". Then that shit happens. It means that humans are no longer at the top of the food chain. I'm not going to neglect evolution. Veganism debates will become more mainstream is what will happen, and we'll see the meat eating arguments compare with science. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
MortalMelancholy said: I'm aware that I'm a bit abnormally minded (insane), and yes, of course I hold the greatest disdain for humans above all. And don't try to pull that bs talk on me; you'd have no interest in my personal musings regardless, and I have even less of an interest in your petty conceit. No but I lost interest in the conversation here. Take your complexes elsewhere. |
Autocrat said: You're flailing. Gasping and jumping with all your might the discomfort is overwhelming. Your instinct is telling you you might be about to die. Then crash, your consciousness slips. Just like that, death. Fish are murdered all the time and this is the case for any animal used as human food. We surely can't ignore the fact that it's murder. Am I vegetarian? No. If someone doesn't buy that pork then another person will. That's not how you affect change anyway. You need political movements for that. But in the future do you think humans will have ceased killing animals for food? And if so, when do you think this will happen? What are your views on all this? Animals are not a part of our society yet, nor of our global denominations. Maybe when that time in the future comes when we can effectively communicate with animals and we can all share a collective vision for the future of the planet (or at least a considerable overlap in our vision), we can consider killing animals a 'murder'. For now, they are out of our jurisdiction. If animals have rights, it's on basis of what things humans can do to animals which would make them an unfit specimen for society. For example, a man torturing his pet is deemed 'insane'. That animal has the right to not be tortured because the man who tortures him is off the hook. |
| I can't tell really. Who knows what sort of beliefs people start enforcing on others in the future. Completely disregarding the talk about meat being unhealthy, as this is total bullshit, you can more often hear people claiming lives of animals are equal to those of people. I personally don't believe so, and have nothing against killing them for food or fur, as long as it's done in a humane way, limiting the pain they feel to minimum. I wonder, though, if that would ever happen, would people try to prevent animals from killing other animals? As that is pretty much the same thing. |
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| Unless cows develop the ability to walk on their back legs and party like the animals in Barnyard, I will keep eating them. |
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| Science needs to get it's ass to work on that whole "growing meat from stem cells in a petri dish" thing. Sure it's disgusting and massively inefficient now, but maybe some day it'll be a viable option. |
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| Yes when there aren't any animals left |
Autocrat said: MortalMelancholy said: I'm aware that I'm a bit abnormally minded (insane), and yes, of course I hold the greatest disdain for humans above all. And don't try to pull that bs talk on me; you'd have no interest in my personal musings regardless, and I have even less of an interest in your petty conceit. No but I lost interest in the conversation here. Take your complexes elsewhere. No need to balk in the face of the truth. It's the internet, and you've already been judged. At least have the dignity to face it, rather than avoid it. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| No. We will kill more animals and eat more meat then ever :) Because humans are cruel, especially meat eaters, right? |
| I've heard that they are already trying to create something like synthetic meat? And that it might replace the real one in a decade or so. I think it'd be a cool solution, at least if it'd taste the same of course - I love animals, but I wouldn't be able to go vegetarian :v |
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| We can synthesize different tissues now, but not for food, it's for diseases, and it's expensive. Human accept killing for food. It's not murder unless it's vs human. Killing for recreation is also allowed but in smaller groups of people. You are not forced to eat meat. Both veggie diet (many forms) or meat-included diet (even more forms) can be healthy or risky depending on choices. |
| Nope. I love animals, but even so, I have no guilt about eating them. After all, nature did design us as omnivores and other animals eat meat too. Why should a lion get to eat a zebra but I'm not allow to eat a cow without someone guilting me when its the same thing? |
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MortalMelancholy said: No need to balk in the face of the truth. It's the internet, and you've already been judged. At least have the dignity to face it, rather than avoid it. Sound man. No problem. No problem popeye. |
| > massive deforestation since the necessity of cultivation > massive desertification since human cultivation destroying the land > destruction of land soil because irrigation and human diet > massive famines since plant rely too much with climate Yeah, basically a good theme for apocalypse story... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
thegreatnathyboy said: Brb said: No, because in hindsight, it's more ethical to kill animals than scientifically create meat. what? lab grown meat is a group of cells without a nervous system and therefore not feeling pain, whereas killing animals causes pain to the animals. the only ethical concern i can see is that farm animals would be released without knowledge of the outside world thus getting them killed (there are manageable ways of countering this tho). then again, when it comes to lab grown meat, taste is a valid concern. also, whether we transition to lab grown meat depends on how much it will cost That's not the ethical problem of growing meat. Like you said yourself, you are creating a group of cells without a nervous system. Think about how people would respond to that. |
| No, humans will never stop doing stupid shit as long as they get some kind of pleasure from it. Be it alcohol, nicotine or meat. |
| Yes, and we will become cannibals because all animals have died and world become more overpopulated. |
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traed said: I think they would genetically engineer dumber animals so it's more ethical to kill them. There also would be laboratory grown meat. This... I hope that one day...they can invent something that will make animals die in painless way for humans to eat, instead of hitting them until they are dead or cutting them up and pull the organs out while still alive because it's easier that way. I hope they can invent something that will make animals die without feeling much pain. Because I doubt a day will come where the world will stop killing animals for food. |
| *Yawn* Not gonna argue again with a stupid troll. |
thegreatnathyboy said: Brb said: That's not the ethical problem of growing meat. Like you said yourself, you are creating a group of cells without a nervous system. Think about how people would respond to that. scientists already to that in the mass production of monoclonal antibodies and it's much more ethically concerning than lab grown meat, considering it involves harvesting cancer cells from mice. i don't really understand your point here, so please elaborate on how growing cells outside of the body is a problem Harvesting artificial cells from mice isn't used apart from research purposes. Okay, expanding on that, anything that humans do in "playing god" is often met with criticism. Cloning, zygote research, heck even abortion are all met with controversy, if only because they are not considered natural. Growing cells(without a host, at that) is as unnatural as it goes. It could sound completely sane, but as long as the current ethos stays, it won't happen, and a paradigm shift of that scale is doubtful. Now we have had tons and tons of research (plenty of which are sketchy, even) but that only concerns animals. Humans are hypocritical in that manner. If the research affects them do they react extremely. |
Brb said: thegreatnathyboy said: scientists already to that in the mass production of monoclonal antibodies and it's much more ethically concerning than lab grown meat, considering it involves harvesting cancer cells from mice. i don't really understand your point here, so please elaborate on how growing cells outside of the body is a problem Harvesting artificial cells from mice isn't used apart from research purposes. Okay, expanding on that, anything that humans do in "playing god" is often met with criticism. Cloning, zygote research, heck even abortion are all met with controversy, if only because they are not considered natural. Growing cells(without a host, at that) is as unnatural as it goes. It could sound completely sane, but as long as the current ethos stays, it won't happen, and a paradigm shift of that scale is doubtful. Now we have had tons and tons of research (plenty of which are sketchy, even) but that only concerns animals. Humans are hypocritical in that manner. If the research affects them do they react extremely. That's ridiculous. Just because something is unnatural doesn't make it wrong. Nobody with their head screwed on would take that argument seriously. |
Autocrat said: Brb said: Harvesting artificial cells from mice isn't used apart from research purposes. Okay, expanding on that, anything that humans do in "playing god" is often met with criticism. Cloning, zygote research, heck even abortion are all met with controversy, if only because they are not considered natural. Growing cells(without a host, at that) is as unnatural as it goes. It could sound completely sane, but as long as the current ethos stays, it won't happen, and a paradigm shift of that scale is doubtful. Now we have had tons and tons of research (plenty of which are sketchy, even) but that only concerns animals. Humans are hypocritical in that manner. If the research affects them do they react extremely. That's ridiculous. Just because something is unnatural doesn't make it wrong. Nobody with their head screwed on would take that argument seriously. But ethics 'is guided by moral principle'. Rightness and wrongness in it isn't based on logic. If it wasn't then abortion wouldn't be so controversial, and same sex marriage, and animal testing, and plenty of other stuff. |
Brb said: Autocrat said: That's ridiculous. Just because something is unnatural doesn't make it wrong. Nobody with their head screwed on would take that argument seriously. But ethics 'is guided by moral principle'. Rightness and wrongness in it isn't based on logic. If it wasn't then abortion wouldn't be so controversial, and same sex marriage, and animal testing, and plenty of other stuff. No, it is based on logic. And it's easy to see why those examples are controversial. |
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