Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic Chapter 278 Discussion

Aug 25, 2015 6:36 PM

The Komori

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Mar 2013

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THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
----------------------------------------
A lot of dialogue is in this chapter but I feel like some people will be disappointed with this chapter considering that

Still, I like the decision that Kouen made since that seems fair enough imo and the latter parts of the dialogue bits makes me VERY curious now

Also, Kouen is a little bitch

TokoyaAug 25, 2015 6:40 PM

Aug 25, 2015 8:00 PM

#2

LordAura

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Dec 2013

423

Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Aug 25, 2015 10:05 PM

#3

shadowii

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while the war did end with a whimper instead of a bang im much more happy that:

HAKURYUU AND KOUEN HAVE FACETIME

I cant even read Japanese but these expressions are perfect

Aug 26, 2015 6:57 AM

#4

Tokoya

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LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Gonna keep this in spoiler tags to respect people waiting for the chapter to get translated

Also, I wouldn't call her defeat being "plot hax" either because Judar and Hakuryuu strategically planned out every move to defeat her ever since they got together (Such as locating the perfect Djinn that they needed to counter her magic prowess) and even then they still almost died trying to beat her.....Plus they themselves weren't slouches either

TokoyaAug 26, 2015 7:06 AM

Aug 26, 2015 7:33 AM

#5

LordAura

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Dec 2013

423

Tokoya said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Gonna keep this in spoiler tags to respect people waiting for the chapter to get translated

Also, I wouldn't call her defeat being "plot hax" either because Judar and Hakuryuu strategically planned out every move to defeat her ever since they got together (Such as locating the perfect Djinn that they needed to counter her magic prowess) and even then they still almost died trying to beat her.....Plus they themselves weren't slouches either

Not really sure why anyone would read a chapter discussion forum before looking at the chapter themselves so I'm not going to bother with spoiler tags. It's easy to call Kouen a coward, but imo it just shows he's not an idiot. Why would you risk your entire family being taken out if you were pretty sure you couldn't beat an adversary? I mean what would that have accomplished? Hakuryuu would've seen him in a better light after he died? There's having balls and then there's being an idiot. Challenging Al Thamen would've been the latter.

I don't really have much to say about Sinbad other than the fact that he's clearly not a good person. He wants the world to be his way. He also manipulates other countries in times of turmoil. I on the fence about him being evil. I think the SSA is shaping up to be the final antagonist of series. Or at the very least Sinbad and some of his most loyal followers.

Gyokuen's defeat was total plot hax. Without that incredibly convenient spell from Alma Torran that Judar had she would've destroyed them. Everything else proved to be completely pointless. Hell even with that if she had been a slightly less injured (able to move better) she would've still won. I'm not sure what you're talking about with the Djinn. She defeated Hakuryuu and only lost because Judar was waiting for her near the edge of that convenient spells barrier range.

Aug 26, 2015 3:40 PM

#6

bromains

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Nov 2014

299

havent even read the chapter but from the comments i can pretty much guess what happens. I'm impressed that kouen would be the one to decide against fighting. It appears someone actually listened to aladdins story.

Love how the first thing to occur after aladins story about how metal vessel users cant fight eachother is for a gigantic war of all the metal vessel users in the world to occur rofl. least kouen is smart enough to know even if he won this war the losses would be unimaginable and the world would probably be torn apart by the fighting of the metal vessels.

anyway its interesting now that we know david is within sinbad how peculiar it even makes the sidestory sinbad no bouken have more meaning imo. We thought sinbad was good from the beginning of the story well not completely we all knew he had been corrupted slightly or atleast half fallen into depravity but they painted him a good guy very well. and they painted kouen the monster but now when it comes down to it kouen is the real good guy and sinbad is the archvillain quite the twist. guess they gave us time to adjust to it though.

Aug 26, 2015 4:47 PM

#7

Tokoya

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LordAura said:

Tokoya said:

Gonna keep this in spoiler tags to respect people waiting for the chapter to get translated

Also, I wouldn't call her defeat being "plot hax" either because Judar and Hakuryuu strategically planned out every move to defeat her ever since they got together (Such as locating the perfect Djinn that they needed to counter her magic prowess) and even then they still almost died trying to beat her.....Plus they themselves weren't slouches either

Not really sure why anyone would read a chapter discussion forum before looking at the chapter themselves so I'm not going to bother with spoiler tags. It's easy to call Kouen a coward, but imo it just shows he's not an idiot. Why would you risk your entire family being taken out if you were pretty sure you couldn't beat an adversary? I mean what would that have accomplished? Hakuryuu would've seen him in a better light after he died? There's having balls and then there's being an idiot. Challenging Al Thamen would've been the latter.

I don't really have much to say about Sinbad other than the fact that he's clearly not a good person. He wants the world to be his way. He also manipulates other countries in times of turmoil. I on the fence about him being evil. I think the SSA is shaping up to be the final antagonist of series. Or at the very least Sinbad and some of his most loyal followers.

Gyokuen's defeat was total plot hax. Without that incredibly convenient spell from Alma Torran that Judar had she would've destroyed them. Everything else proved to be completely pointless. Hell even with that if she had been a slightly less injured (able to move better) she would've still won. I'm not sure what you're talking about with the Djinn. She defeated Hakuryuu and only lost because Judar was waiting for her near the edge of that convenient spells barrier range.

For somebody who claims to want to bring peace to the world, he sure as hell went about it in a half assed way and quite frankly, his method is nothing short of stupidity.....Why in god's name would you help the ultimate evil gain strength and let them be to do whatever they want to do

Sinbad is Sinbad but alas, we're gonna have to wait and see where this whole thing goes

And thirdly, the Isolation Barrier was a forbidden technique that Mogamett (He did a lot of this during his life) himself was looking into and the reason as to why Judar had it was because he absorbed all of the rukh from him before he died in the previous arc so no, it wasn't much of a plot convenience either but even then, all it did was even the playing field because NOBODY could use magic in that barrier including Hakuryuu and Judar

My point still stands because they still had to earn their win against her and it took everything that they had....Yeah they tag teamed her but the fact that she was a master swordsman even's it all out because she almost even killed all of them....Hakyruu's drive, ruthlessness and determination by both he and Judar is what won them that battle

Aug 26, 2015 6:37 PM

#8

LordAura

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Dec 2013

423

Tokoya said:
[spoiler]

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Gonna keep this in spoiler tags to respect people waiting for the chapter to get translated

Also, I wouldn't call her defeat being "plot hax" either because Judar and Hakuryuu strategically planned out every move to defeat her ever since they got together (Such as locating the perfect Djinn that they needed to counter her magic prowess) and even then they still almost died trying to beat her.....Plus they themselves weren't slouches either

Not really sure why anyone would read a chapter discussion forum before looking at the chapter themselves so I'm not going to bother with spoiler tags. It's easy to call Kouen a coward, but imo it just shows he's not an idiot. Why would you risk your entire family being taken out if you were pretty sure you couldn't beat an adversary? I mean what would that have accomplished? Hakuryuu would've seen him in a better light after he died? There's having balls and then there's being an idiot. Challenging Al Thamen would've been the latter.

I don't really have much to say about Sinbad other than the fact that he's clearly not a good person. He wants the world to be his way. He also manipulates other countries in times of turmoil. I on the fence about him being evil. I think the SSA is shaping up to be the final antagonist of series. Or at the very least Sinbad and some of his most loyal followers.

Gyokuen's defeat was total plot hax. Without that incredibly convenient spell from Alma Torran that Judar had she would've destroyed them. Everything else proved to be completely pointless. Hell even with that if she had been a slightly less injured (able to move better) she would've still won. I'm not sure what you're talking about with the Djinn. She defeated Hakuryuu and only lost because Judar was waiting for her near the edge of that convenient spells barrier range.

For somebody who claims to want to bring peace to the world, he sure as hell went about it in a half assed way and quite frankly, his method is nothing short of stupidity.....Why in god's name would you help the ultimate evil gain strength and let them be to do whatever they want to do

Sinbad is Sinbad but alas, we're gonna have to wait and see where this whole thing goes

And thirdly, the Isolation Barrier was a forbidden technique that Mogamett (He did a lot of this during his life) himself was looking into and the reason as to why Judar had it was because he absorbed all of the rukh from him before he died in the previous arc so no, it wasn't much of a plot convenience either but even then, all it did was even the playing field because NOBODY could use magic in that barrier including Hakuryuu and Judar

My point still stands because they still had to earn their win against her and it took everything that they had....Yeah they tag teamed her but the fact that she was a master swordsman even's it all out because she almost even killed all of them....Hakyruu's drive, ruthlessness and determination by both he and Judar is what won them that battle

[/spoiler] We'll just have to agree to disagree on the Kouen part. I see it more of him protecting himself and his siblings from Gyokuen then actively aiding Al Thamen. If the alternative was death I probably would've aided them too. Morals don't mean anything if you're dead. This viewpoint is also supported by his conditions of surrender in this very chapter. I'm going to assume he was hoping an opening would eventually come up to take care of her.

As for the Isolation Barrier, I really don't care whether it was "explained" or not. It was stupidly overpowered and Judar didn't mention having it until the fight. The one ability that they needed to beat Gyokuen just happened to be the one that Mogamett knew. That's basically plot convenience at its core imo. Gyokuen beat Hakuryuu and his Generals. He lost and it was pretty clear that Judar won that battle to me. Or the Isolation Barrier did. We just see the battle differently I guess. It also didn't even out shit because Judar ran and hid like a little bitch. They won because he sucker punched Gyokuen after she bested 3 skilled swordsman in a battle.

LordAuraAug 26, 2015 6:44 PM

Aug 28, 2015 8:30 PM

#9

vickypix

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Dec 2013

864

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Aug 29, 2015 1:46 AM

#10

LordAura

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Dec 2013

423

vickypix said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Sep 1, 2015 10:54 PM

#11

Tokoya

The Komori

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LordAura said:

vickypix said:

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Nobody is denying that either and certainly not her feats at that matter (Well, at least I'm not)

But going by York previous comments you pretty much did and till are downplaying their victory due to that fact alone

What they did was a culmination of strategy and hard work and you can call it plot hax all you want but it was foreshadowed thus negating that....We as readers just didn't see it coming which is a huge plus for me because I'd hate for them to win by actual plot hax (a la random power up that made them equil to or stronger than her in terms of magic power)

In a sense what Judar did is kind of similar to a borg in a sense seeing that both completely negates magic

Sep 2, 2015 12:36 AM

#12

LordAura

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Dec 2013

423

Tokoya said:
[spoiler]

LordAura said:

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Nobody is denying that either and certainly not her feats at that matter (Well, at least I'm not)

But going by York previous comments you pretty much did and till are downplaying their victory due to that fact alone

What they did was a culmination of strategy and hard work and you can call it plot hax all you want but it was foreshadowed thus negating that....We as readers just didn't see it coming which is a huge plus for me because I'd hate for them to win by actual plot hax (a la random power up that made them equil to or stronger than her in terms of magic power)

In a sense what Judar did is kind of similar to a borg in a sense seeing that both completely negates magic

[/spoiler] Okay this has gone on for a while so I'll just ask for evidence from the manga that refutes the points I made. If it was mentioned somewhere earlier that Mogamett knew Alma Torran abilities then please tell me what page and chapter. If not the only foreshadowing was Judar absorbing the Black Rukh. Also unless I'm mistaken David was the only one that used that ability, so that makes it even more strange that Mogamett was able to find it. (unless that itself was GOOD foreshadowing that David was also manipulating events in Magnostadt and gave him the knowledge somehow) If I've forgotten something else (presumably something Mogamett said) then I'll happily concede this point, but if not then you're saying literally anything would've been acceptable because that is some incredibly vague foreshadowing that Judar got something from the rukh, without any comment of what it was. Heck he could've said something to the effect of "this may come in handy against that hag" or "to think the geezer knew something this poweful." That's foreshadowing he got an ability at least.

As for the strategy part I still completely disagree. What did the mind control amount to? Nothing, Gyokuen wrecked all the Al Thamen members he mind controlled in an instant. Hakuryuu didn't even know about the isolation barrier beforehand so there was no planning with that in mind. The Generals joining the fight was also completely unexpected so that wasn't planned. Basically they winged it. The only part of the strategy that worked was clearing the room. Just as above I'll happily concede this point too if you tell me what part of their strategy actually worked against her. It was a hard fight so I'll give you that there was hard work involved. I mean you put that they would've stood no chance without the isolation barrier in bold and said you agree they wouldn't have. The isolation barrier wasn't part of their strategy beforehand and was a trump card. I also find it funny that you defined plot hax as a "random ability that made them equal to her in magical power" when that's exactly what the isolation barrier does lol. The only difference is that I guess it wasn't random because it was used in Alma Torran, which I totally agree with. I just don't think it was foreshadowed well at all.

LordAuraSep 2, 2015 1:12 AM

Sep 2, 2015 1:17 AM

#13

Stark700

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Nov 2011

129020

Ah...putting an end to all wars and bring peace. That sounds so much easier said than done :o

Sep 2, 2015 2:52 AM

#14

Barion-Zara

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Aug 2010

10990

I'm actually not disappointed at all. This was an awesome chap. Makes me like Kouen's even more.

Obvious Gyokuen is alive foreshadowing is obvious

Sep 2, 2015 3:06 AM

#15

Nishiou

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Nov 2013

1345

I liked the dialogue between them. Really hope that Hakuryuu finally gets that he I liked the dialogue between them. Really hope that Hakuryuu finally gets that he is on the damn wrong way... but so far it doesn't seem like that.

I must admit that i liked Kouen in this chapter. If everything what he said is true, then i can understand him, even if the way he chose to unite the world was full of flaws. He always thought of his people first and had no interest in anything else, but as we know bringing peace into the world is not as easy as many think. Poor Solomon had to go through it. Even when you have peace humans will always bring up something to cause chaos and hatred.

He being afraid of Gyokuen is no surprise. That woman is the crazy and the foreshadowing is something most of us knew that it would come. Like hell she would just die like that.

NishiouSep 2, 2015 3:21 AM

Sep 2, 2015 3:07 AM

#16

MorzGT

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Aug 2013

129

So am I the only one that noticed Hakuryuu got a new scar on his face?
By the end of Magi (if he even survives) he will be unrecognizable.

So Kouen is pretty much a coward,I feel like he just wants strong people to do his business,only watching,while his people do the job.

Sep 2, 2015 3:36 AM

#17

Ramkec

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Feb 2012

6758

Y'all already know Sinbad won't pussy out and he gonna execute all of em.

Lol'd at that last page last panel on the bottom.

Sep 2, 2015 4:19 AM

#18

jadedfroh

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Sep 2015

2

CoolMorz said:

So Kouen is pretty much a coward,I feel like he just wants strong people to do his business,only watching,while his people do the job.

Exactly. Coward and hypocrite. World peace? Through conquest, suppression and turning entire nation of people into slaves? Those used in Balbadd like they're belongings? He was too scared to man up and fight Gyouken. He was too scared to use the simplest opinion and just screw her. Kouen is such disgusting whiny hypocrite I want him to be punished for his sins.

Waiting until Hakuryuu cleans up, then act with moral high ground. If Hakuryuu wouldn't have stepped in, Kouen woukd have conquered (or tried) the world, then just step back and let Gyouken to take over. Kouen is trash. People like him do more bad than even villains like Gyouken.

Sep 2, 2015 5:56 AM

#19

Nakukoro

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Jul 2015

13

Well, in my opinion, Kouen had a noble objetive which fell into depravity (because killing and conquering other countries became his method) and Sinbad is the definition of depravity (manipulation, war even if he denies it, lust of money and power...)

You can also see that Kouen loves his brothers (he surrendered for them) and protects his subordinates. Do you really think Sinbad (the currently one, the one who fell into depravity) would give a shit for anyone?

Today is the day where Sinbad's fangirls and fanboys have to recognise that Kouen is better xD

Sep 2, 2015 6:13 AM

#20

kaneki-ken1

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Sep 2014

209

Nakukoro said:
Well, in my opinion, Kouen had a noble objetive which fell into depravity (because killing and conquering other countries became his method) and Sinbad is the definition of depravity (manipulation, war even if he denies it, lust of money and power...)

You can also see that Kouen loves his brothers (he surrendered for them) and protects his subordinates. Do you really think Sinbad (the currently one, the one who fell into depravity) would give a shit for anyone?

Today is the day where Sinbad's fangirls and fanboys have to recognise that Kouen is better xD

kouen aint better...........keep dreaming lol

*people die when they are killed* - emiya shirou.......

Sep 2, 2015 6:17 AM

#21

Fiji

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Dec 2011

6101

Yup. I knew it. I am pretty sure Gyokuen is not dead.

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Sep 2, 2015 6:52 AM

#22

geralt

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Apr 2013

3489

Last chapter I was wondering how Kouen could turn the war around and now I know: he couldnt lol

I'm pretty sure I would have loved an epic entrance of Alibaba to save the day, but I guess that would have been a bit too predictable and "shounen-like". Also, Kouen isn't really a coward, he's just more rational than most and knows his limits.

I'm now looking forward to see Sinbad's next course of action and the return of Alibaba, next few chapters should be very interesting.

5 main aspects I base my ratings on:
1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it?
2. Is it better than Breaking Bad?
3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it?
4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL?
5. Is it actually good?

Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant...

Sep 2, 2015 7:24 AM

#23

vickypix

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Dec 2013

864

Nakukoro said:
Well, in my opinion, Kouen had a noble objetive which fell into depravity (because killing and conquering other countries became his method) and Sinbad is the definition of depravity (manipulation, war even if he denies it, lust of money and power...)

You can also see that Kouen loves his brothers (he surrendered for them) and protects his subordinates. Do you really think Sinbad (the currently one, the one who fell into depravity) would give a shit for anyone?

Today is the day where Sinbad's fangirls and fanboys have to recognise that Kouen is better xD

At least he's not a loser

Sep 2, 2015 8:00 AM

#24

Tokoya

The Komori

Offline

Mar 2013

7435

Nakukoro said:
Well, in my opinion, Kouen had a noble objetive which fell into depravity (because killing and conquering other countries became his method) and Sinbad is the definition of depravity (manipulation, war even if he denies it, lust of money and power...)

You can also see that Kouen loves his brothers (he surrendered for them) and protects his subordinates. Do you really think Sinbad (the currently one, the one who fell into depravity) would give a shit for anyone?

Today is the day where Sinbad's fangirls and fanboys have to recognise that Kouen is better xD

Uhhhh not exactly... Unlike Kouen who literally conquered countries and forced them to submit to him/completely destroyed their cultures and freedom to live how they always did, Sinbad is not a conqueror

He didn't conquer any of the countries in the SSA and if you read his side story manga, you will see that he actually genuinely helped each country out and formed alliances with them for a good cause which is to obtain peace but not via war or subjugation like what Kouen has done....He even managed to completely change some of the countries for the better

And at the end of the day, Kouen is just a big hypocrite because of his methods and as such he needed to be put in his place because his way wasn't going to change a thing especially since he felt as if working with the ultimate evil was going to help his cause

Sep 2, 2015 8:20 AM

#25

Nakukoro

Offline

Jul 2015

13

Its so obvious that Sinbad's depravity has conquered this forum... just kidding

At least Kouen has a cool as hell goatee :p

Sep 2, 2015 8:41 AM

#26

Jicetus

Anime Moderator

᠎　Master Öqvily᠎

Offline

Aug 2014

4096

Kouen = Trying to be hero
Gyokuen = Alive
Sinbad = Asshole
Aladdin = ?
Alibaba = He died and it should stay like that.
Hakuryuu = Worthless

Forum set made by my
secret santa, Nate!

Sep 2, 2015 11:10 AM

#27

bromains

Offline

Nov 2014

299

rofl the beginning of the story it was like sinbad the great hero fighting against kouen the great villain conquering peoples homelands.

now kouen is like the goodest good guy and sinbad is the greatest bad guy of 2 different worlds in one.

hard to imaigne that gyokuen is that same childhood friend of solomon who sacrificed her love for him to help achieve shebas love for him.

bromainsSep 2, 2015 11:14 AM

Sep 2, 2015 2:49 PM

#28

Tokoya

The Komori

Offline

Mar 2013

7435

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:
[spoiler]

LordAura said:

vickypix said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Nobody is denying that either and certainly not her feats at that matter (Well, at least I'm not)

But going by York previous comments you pretty much did and till are downplaying their victory due to that fact alone

What they did was a culmination of strategy and hard work and you can call it plot hax all you want but it was foreshadowed thus negating that....We as readers just didn't see it coming which is a huge plus for me because I'd hate for them to win by actual plot hax (a la random power up that made them equil to or stronger than her in terms of magic power)

In a sense what Judar did is kind of similar to a borg in a sense seeing that both completely negates magic

[/spoiler] Okay this has gone on for a while so I'll just ask for evidence from the manga that refutes the points I made. If it was mentioned somewhere earlier that Mogamett knew Alma Torran abilities then please tell me what page and chapter. If not the only foreshadowing was Judar absorbing the Black Rukh. Also unless I'm mistaken David was the only one that used that ability, so that makes it even more strange that Mogamett was able to find it. (unless that itself was GOOD foreshadowing that David was also manipulating events in Magnostadt and gave him the knowledge somehow) If I've forgotten something else (presumably something Mogamett said) then I'll happily concede this point, but if not then you're saying literally anything would've been acceptable because that is some incredibly vague foreshadowing that Judar got something from the rukh, without any comment of what it was. Heck he could've said something to the effect of "this may come in handy against that hag" or "to think the geezer knew something this poweful." That's foreshadowing he got an ability at least.

As for the strategy part I still completely disagree. What did the mind control amount to? Nothing, Gyokuen wrecked all the Al Thamen members he mind controlled in an instant. Hakuryuu didn't even know about the isolation barrier beforehand so there was no planning with that in mind. The Generals joining the fight was also completely unexpected so that wasn't planned. Basically they winged it. The only part of the strategy that worked was clearing the room. Just as above I'll happily concede this point too if you tell me what part of their strategy actually worked against her. It was a hard fight so I'll give you that there was hard work involved. I mean you put that they would've stood no chance without the isolation barrier in bold and said you agree they wouldn't have. The isolation barrier wasn't part of their strategy beforehand and was a trump card. I also find it funny that you defined plot hax as a "random ability that made them equal to her in magical power" when that's exactly what the isolation barrier does lol. The only difference is that I guess it wasn't random because it was used in Alma Torran, which I totally agree with. I just don't think it was foreshadowed well at all.

My proof is that for years he's been researching and experimenting with dark magic/what AT (Al Thamen btw not Alma Toran but alas is made up of people from there) and Gyokuen thrives upon and uses daily.....He became obsessed with it and as we all saw, his obsession (and extreme prejudice) drove him into complete depravity and it's not far fetched to think that a master magician such as him would have have knowledge of tons of powerful techniques both dark and light...That's why Judar absorbed him - To obtain all that knowledge with the hope of getting stronger and learning new techniques that he can use to achieve he and Hakuryuu's goals.....Like Hakuryuu said in this chapter, they prepared and then waited for the right moment to strike....Remember, everything is located in the Rukh and as such, Judar being a Magi means that he has access to all of that vast knowledge so that combined with the knowledge he gained from Mogamett and the Black Djinn proves this

In regards to everything else, as I've previously stated they (more so Judar) came prepared to win via anyway possible and like you already stated, the barrier was a trump card (Which shoukd always be kept sercret) and as Judar stated himself, he personally looked into and mastered this technique (Which is something Gyokuen gave him props over and was surprised by in chapter 240 I think....The one where they killed her) however he wanted to avoid using it at all costs because of the notable drawbacks (That is, he would be completely useless and Hakuryuu would lose his magic and arm as well) so he betted on their plan A

Yes their initial strategy failed, but that is precisely why Judar even bothered to learn that move....As a fail safe if all things went south which it did....Unfortunately it just so happened that she was powerful even without magic lol....The general thing did come out of nowhere but I wouldn't really go that far as to call it plot convenience because Hakuryuu WAS the rightful ruler to the throne and I think it's safe to say that anyone outside of AT within the Kou empire and with a little balls would surely take the side of Hakuryuu or the Kou brothers over AT, especially veteran and experienced Generals such as them

TokoyaSep 2, 2015 2:52 PM

Sep 2, 2015 7:35 PM

#29

AlexTheRiot

Offline

Aug 2012

3000

Pretty disappointed in Kouen's cowardice, pretty jarring turn from what we've known about his character so far.

Still waiting for Hakuryuu to take his bottomless pit of vengeance and depravity and drown himself in it.

Sep 2, 2015 7:57 PM

#30

toooru

Offline

Apr 2013

34

ARE YOU TELLING ME KOUEN WAS THE GOOD GUY ALL ALONG

and it was so weird to see him like that it's like he was a completely different person

Sep 2, 2015 10:51 PM

#31

LordAura

Offline

Dec 2013

423

Tokoya said:

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:
[spoiler]

LordAura said:

vickypix said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Nobody is denying that either and certainly not her feats at that matter (Well, at least I'm not)

But going by York previous comments you pretty much did and till are downplaying their victory due to that fact alone

What they did was a culmination of strategy and hard work and you can call it plot hax all you want but it was foreshadowed thus negating that....We as readers just didn't see it coming which is a huge plus for me because I'd hate for them to win by actual plot hax (a la random power up that made them equil to or stronger than her in terms of magic power)

In a sense what Judar did is kind of similar to a borg in a sense seeing that both completely negates magic

[/spoiler][spoiler] Okay this has gone on for a while so I'll just ask for evidence from the manga that refutes the points I made. If it was mentioned somewhere earlier that Mogamett knew Alma Torran abilities then please tell me what page and chapter. If not the only foreshadowing was Judar absorbing the Black Rukh. Also unless I'm mistaken David was the only one that used that ability, so that makes it even more strange that Mogamett was able to find it. (unless that itself was GOOD foreshadowing that David was also manipulating events in Magnostadt and gave him the knowledge somehow) If I've forgotten something else (presumably something Mogamett said) then I'll happily concede this point, but if not then you're saying literally anything would've been acceptable because that is some incredibly vague foreshadowing that Judar got something from the rukh, without any comment of what it was. Heck he could've said something to the effect of "this may come in handy against that hag" or "to think the geezer knew something this poweful." That's foreshadowing he got an ability at least.

As for the strategy part I still completely disagree. What did the mind control amount to? Nothing, Gyokuen wrecked all the Al Thamen members he mind controlled in an instant. Hakuryuu didn't even know about the isolation barrier beforehand so there was no planning with that in mind. The Generals joining the fight was also completely unexpected so that wasn't planned. Basically they winged it. The only part of the strategy that worked was clearing the room. Just as above I'll happily concede this point too if you tell me what part of their strategy actually worked against her. It was a hard fight so I'll give you that there was hard work involved. I mean you put that they would've stood no chance without the isolation barrier in bold and said you agree they wouldn't have. The isolation barrier wasn't part of their strategy beforehand and was a trump card. I also find it funny that you defined plot hax as a "random ability that made them equal to her in magical power" when that's exactly what the isolation barrier does lol. The only difference is that I guess it wasn't random because it was used in Alma Torran, which I totally agree with. I just don't think it was foreshadowed well at all.

My proof is that for years he's been researching and experimenting with dark magic/what AT (Al Thamen btw not Alma Toran but alas is made up of people from there) and Gyokuen thrives upon and uses daily.....He became obsessed with it and as we all saw, his obsession (and extreme prejudice) drove him into complete depravity and it's not far fetched to think that a master magician such as him would have have knowledge of tons of powerful techniques both dark and light...That's why Judar absorbed him - To obtain all that knowledge with the hope of getting stronger and learning new techniques that he can use to achieve he and Hakuryuu's goals.....Like Hakuryuu said in this chapter, they prepared and then waited for the right moment to strike....Remember, everything is located in the Rukh and as such, Judar being a Magi means that he has access to all of that vast knowledge so that combined with the knowledge he gained from Mogamett and the Black Djinn proves this

In regards to everything else, as I've previously stated they (more so Judar) came prepared to win via anyway possible and like you already stated, the barrier was a trump card (Which shoukd always be kept sercret) and as Judar stated himself, he personally looked into and mastered this technique (Which is something Gyokuen gave him props over and was surprised by in chapter 240 I think....The one where they killed her) however he wanted to avoid using it at all costs because of the notable drawbacks (That is, he would be completely useless and Hakuryuu would lose his magic and arm as well) so he betted on their plan A

Yes their initial strategy failed, but that is precisely why Judar even bothered to learn that move....As a fail safe if all things went south which it did....Unfortunately it just so happened that she was powerful even without magic lol....The general thing did come out of nowhere but I wouldn't really go that far as to call it plot convenience because Hakuryuu WAS the rightful ruler to the throne and I think it's safe to say that anyone outside of AT within the Kou empire and with a little balls would surely take the side of Hakuryuu or the Kou brothers over AT, especially veteran and experienced Generals such as them

I guess my issue come from the fact that Mogamett somehow learned a spell that only David knew. I could understand literally anything else since Al Thamen was helping him, but how did he learn something that they didn't even know. He was very smart and did fall into depravity(though this is actually moot because it didn't happen until near the end of the battle in the manga because it was big plot point that his rukh was still pure despite him being a blatant racist) as you say, but for him to learn something that Arba didn't know just doesn't add up to me. How do you go about learning something from a place you didn't know existed and thus didn't even know the spell existed before people that were actually from there that have a genius Magi leading them? Unless like I said we'll be learning that David manipulated the situation somehow.
As for the strategy argument I think we differ on what constitutes a strategy. I don't think using the isolation barrier and then wailing on Gyokuen in a brutal sword fight with biting, kissing, and the help of two unexpected Generals is a strategy. I think the strategy went to hell twice. Once when they realized she was a badass Magi and again when they realized she was a badass swordsman. I think they used a heck of a lot of strategy up until the fight with capturing Belial and mind controlling a force to invade the capital, but against her there was no strategy. It was literally all out battle where anything goes. Hakuryuu used a lot of strategy to get where he is currently, but not in that fight in my opinion.

LordAuraSep 2, 2015 10:56 PM

Sep 2, 2015 11:24 PM

#32

Tokoya

The Komori

Offline

Mar 2013

7435

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:
[spoiler]

LordAura said:

vickypix said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Nobody is denying that either and certainly not her feats at that matter (Well, at least I'm not)

But going by York previous comments you pretty much did and till are downplaying their victory due to that fact alone

What they did was a culmination of strategy and hard work and you can call it plot hax all you want but it was foreshadowed thus negating that....We as readers just didn't see it coming which is a huge plus for me because I'd hate for them to win by actual plot hax (a la random power up that made them equil to or stronger than her in terms of magic power)

In a sense what Judar did is kind of similar to a borg in a sense seeing that both completely negates magic

[/spoiler][spoiler] Okay this has gone on for a while so I'll just ask for evidence from the manga that refutes the points I made. If it was mentioned somewhere earlier that Mogamett knew Alma Torran abilities then please tell me what page and chapter. If not the only foreshadowing was Judar absorbing the Black Rukh. Also unless I'm mistaken David was the only one that used that ability, so that makes it even more strange that Mogamett was able to find it. (unless that itself was GOOD foreshadowing that David was also manipulating events in Magnostadt and gave him the knowledge somehow) If I've forgotten something else (presumably something Mogamett said) then I'll happily concede this point, but if not then you're saying literally anything would've been acceptable because that is some incredibly vague foreshadowing that Judar got something from the rukh, without any comment of what it was. Heck he could've said something to the effect of "this may come in handy against that hag" or "to think the geezer knew something this poweful." That's foreshadowing he got an ability at least.

As for the strategy part I still completely disagree. What did the mind control amount to? Nothing, Gyokuen wrecked all the Al Thamen members he mind controlled in an instant. Hakuryuu didn't even know about the isolation barrier beforehand so there was no planning with that in mind. The Generals joining the fight was also completely unexpected so that wasn't planned. Basically they winged it. The only part of the strategy that worked was clearing the room. Just as above I'll happily concede this point too if you tell me what part of their strategy actually worked against her. It was a hard fight so I'll give you that there was hard work involved. I mean you put that they would've stood no chance without the isolation barrier in bold and said you agree they wouldn't have. The isolation barrier wasn't part of their strategy beforehand and was a trump card. I also find it funny that you defined plot hax as a "random ability that made them equal to her in magical power" when that's exactly what the isolation barrier does lol. The only difference is that I guess it wasn't random because it was used in Alma Torran, which I totally agree with. I just don't think it was foreshadowed well at all.

My proof is that for years he's been researching and experimenting with dark magic/what AT (Al Thamen btw not Alma Toran but alas is made up of people from there) and Gyokuen thrives upon and uses daily.....He became obsessed with it and as we all saw, his obsession (and extreme prejudice) drove him into complete depravity and it's not far fetched to think that a master magician such as him would have have knowledge of tons of powerful techniques both dark and light...That's why Judar absorbed him - To obtain all that knowledge with the hope of getting stronger and learning new techniques that he can use to achieve he and Hakuryuu's goals.....Like Hakuryuu said in this chapter, they prepared and then waited for the right moment to strike....Remember, everything is located in the Rukh and as such, Judar being a Magi means that he has access to all of that vast knowledge so that combined with the knowledge he gained from Mogamett and the Black Djinn proves this

In regards to everything else, as I've previously stated they (more so Judar) came prepared to win via anyway possible and like you already stated, the barrier was a trump card (Which shoukd always be kept sercret) and as Judar stated himself, he personally looked into and mastered this technique (Which is something Gyokuen gave him props over and was surprised by in chapter 240 I think....The one where they killed her) however he wanted to avoid using it at all costs because of the notable drawbacks (That is, he would be completely useless and Hakuryuu would lose his magic and arm as well) so he betted on their plan A

Yes their initial strategy failed, but that is precisely why Judar even bothered to learn that move....As a fail safe if all things went south which it did....Unfortunately it just so happened that she was powerful even without magic lol....The general thing did come out of nowhere but I wouldn't really go that far as to call it plot convenience because Hakuryuu WAS the rightful ruler to the throne and I think it's safe to say that anyone outside of AT within the Kou empire and with a little balls would surely take the side of Hakuryuu or the Kou brothers over AT, especially veteran and experienced Generals such as them

I guess my issue come from the fact that Mogamett somehow learned a spell that only David knew. I could understand literally anything else since Al Thamen was helping him, but how did he learn something that they didn't even know. He was very smart and did fall into depravity(though this is actually moot because it didn't happen until near the end of the battle in the manga because it was big plot point that his rukh was still pure despite him being a blatant racist) as you say, but for him to learn something that Arba didn't know just doesn't add up to me. How do you go about learning something from a place you didn't know existed and thus didn't even know the spell existed before people that were actually from there that have a genius Magi leading them? Unless like I said we'll be learning that David manipulated the situation somehow.
As for the strategy argument I think we differ on what constitutes a strategy. I don't think using the isolation barrier and then wailing on Gyokuen in a brutal sword fight with biting, kissing, and the help of two unexpected Generals is a strategy. I think the strategy went to hell twice. Once when they realized she was a badass Magi and again when they realized she was a badass swordsman. I think they used a heck of a lot of strategy up until the fight with capturing Belial and mind controlling a force to invade the capital, but against her there was no strategy. It was literally all out battle where anything goes. Hakuryuu used a lot of strategy to get where he is currently, but not in that fight in my opinion.

They (Well Gyokuen) did know about that technique, and what shocked her was the fact that somebody from this world was able to actually find out about the spell and learn it (I believe it's in the same chapter as her death when she said all of this) - Which in itself is a severe underestimation of the people of this world on her part hence why she praised them

The isolation barrier was Judar's tactic against her but like you said, that went to shit too.....I believe that their initial strategy was to use their new found power (Because they were pretty strong together) and double team her using their strength and Judar's new abilities + the hundreds of soldiers they mind controlled to help them however they underestimated her and it bit them in the ass

In short their strategy was to overwhelm her with shear numbers and powerful magic attacks and then later, upon the implementation of the barrier (Judar's strategy) they assumed that she was like Judar and would be useless without her magic and the strategy turned into the obvious one which was to completely overpower her physically

The second strategy laid the foundation for their victory but I do agree that it wasn't the deciding factor of how they achieved said victory

Sep 2, 2015 11:38 PM

#33

Tobinami

Offline

Feb 2015

444

Seeing Kouen now reminds me of Itachi...
anyone else feel the same way ?

Sep 3, 2015 12:31 AM

#34

LordAura

Offline

Dec 2013

423

Tokoya said:

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:

LordAura said:

Tokoya said:
[spoiler]

LordAura said:

vickypix said:

LordAura said:
Based on the chapter spoilers this is an incredibly disappointing finale to the war. I don't really agree with Kouen being a "little bitch" though. I mean Gyokuen only lost to Hakuryuu, his two Generals, and Judar because she had her magic taken away from her and didn't know that the spell was even possible to use outside of Alma Torran. If she had known beforehand she would've most likely wrecked Judar before he could even use it and kill everyone else instead of toying with them. She wouldn't have been so careless against Kouen and probably would've killed him and all his siblings with little to no effort. He was right to be afraid of her. She was/is probably the most powerful character in the story so far. The only reason she lost is because of a plot hax spell.

Why is Gyokuen so overrated? First she's not the most powerful character we have seen , clearly David and Solomon were stronger than her. Second Hakuryuu was under Phenex spell and Judar lost the control over his black ruch because they favored Gyokuen.
We have seen MV users casually blow up mountains so her powerlevel wasn't that amazing, I don't understand why people fawn over her like that.

There is also the fact that Kouen had no idea how powerful she was, he din't know she was a magi from Alma Toran, so his excuse is pure bullshit.

Obviously she's not more powerful than the characters you've mentioned, but they were "dead" before the story started so they weren't included in my assessment. The rest I've already discussed at length so really no point in going over it again. I guess when she inevitably comes back we'll see who's right and who's not. For the sake of explaining why I "fawn" over her. It's because she's a Magi of Alma Torran which already makes her incredibly powerful due to having limitless Rukh/Magoi. She also was the best swordsman in Alma Torran destroying the one weakness most Magi/Magicians have. She is also the oldest and most experienced Magi of the bunch because she's the first generation. I mean everything that has been said about her makes her out to be incredibly strong so I'm confused why you feel she's not. She had all of her magic taken away from her so we never even got to see the full extent of her abilities. That'd be like saying Sinbad is weak because a bunch of magicians killed him when he had no Djinn. It's just silly. Also the Phenex thing is irrelevant because it stopped working after the barrier was cast. So it was either use extreme magic against Gyokuen with all her magic ability (she states she can heal all of her wounds when she leaves the barrier meaning she would've been able to do it the entire time had her magic not been taken away) and Judar having nothing which would've ended in death or fight her with no magic 3 vs 1 with two Generals on your side. I'm not trying to downplay that they beat her, but I am saying that the isolation barrier is the only reason it happened. They wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise.

Nobody is denying that either and certainly not her feats at that matter (Well, at least I'm not)

But going by York previous comments you pretty much did and till are downplaying their victory due to that fact alone

What they did was a culmination of strategy and hard work and you can call it plot hax all you want but it was foreshadowed thus negating that....We as readers just didn't see it coming which is a huge plus for me because I'd hate for them to win by actual plot hax (a la random power up that made them equil to or stronger than her in terms of magic power)

In a sense what Judar did is kind of similar to a borg in a sense seeing that both completely negates magic

[/spoiler][spoiler] Okay this has gone on for a while so I'll just ask for evidence from the manga that refutes the points I made. If it was mentioned somewhere earlier that Mogamett knew Alma Torran abilities then please tell me what page and chapter. If not the only foreshadowing was Judar absorbing the Black Rukh. Also unless I'm mistaken David was the only one that used that ability, so that makes it even more strange that Mogamett was able to find it. (unless that itself was GOOD foreshadowing that David was also manipulating events in Magnostadt and gave him the knowledge somehow) If I've forgotten something else (presumably something Mogamett said) then I'll happily concede this point, but if not then you're saying literally anything would've been acceptable because that is some incredibly vague foreshadowing that Judar got something from the rukh, without any comment of what it was. Heck he could've said something to the effect of "this may come in handy against that hag" or "to think the geezer knew something this poweful." That's foreshadowing he got an ability at least.

As for the strategy part I still completely disagree. What did the mind control amount to? Nothing, Gyokuen wrecked all the Al Thamen members he mind controlled in an instant. Hakuryuu didn't even know about the isolation barrier beforehand so there was no planning with that in mind. The Generals joining the fight was also completely unexpected so that wasn't planned. Basically they winged it. The only part of the strategy that worked was clearing the room. Just as above I'll happily concede this point too if you tell me what part of their strategy actually worked against her. It was a hard fight so I'll give you that there was hard work involved. I mean you put that they would've stood no chance without the isolation barrier in bold and said you agree they wouldn't have. The isolation barrier wasn't part of their strategy beforehand and was a trump card. I also find it funny that you defined plot hax as a "random ability that made them equal to her in magical power" when that's exactly what the isolation barrier does lol. The only difference is that I guess it wasn't random because it was used in Alma Torran, which I totally agree with. I just don't think it was foreshadowed well at all.

My proof is that for years he's been researching and experimenting with dark magic/what AT (Al Thamen btw not Alma Toran but alas is made up of people from there) and Gyokuen thrives upon and uses daily.....He became obsessed with it and as we all saw, his obsession (and extreme prejudice) drove him into complete depravity and it's not far fetched to think that a master magician such as him would have have knowledge of tons of powerful techniques both dark and light...That's why Judar absorbed him - To obtain all that knowledge with the hope of getting stronger and learning new techniques that he can use to achieve he and Hakuryuu's goals.....Like Hakuryuu said in this chapter, they prepared and then waited for the right moment to strike....Remember, everything is located in the Rukh and as such, Judar being a Magi means that he has access to all of that vast knowledge so that combined with the knowledge he gained from Mogamett and the Black Djinn proves this

In regards to everything else, as I've previously stated they (more so Judar) came prepared to win via anyway possible and like you already stated, the barrier was a trump card (Which shoukd always be kept sercret) and as Judar stated himself, he personally looked into and mastered this technique (Which is something Gyokuen gave him props over and was surprised by in chapter 240 I think....The one where they killed her) however he wanted to avoid using it at all costs because of the notable drawbacks (That is, he would be completely useless and Hakuryuu would lose his magic and arm as well) so he betted on their plan A

Yes their initial strategy failed, but that is precisely why Judar even bothered to learn that move....As a fail safe if all things went south which it did....Unfortunately it just so happened that she was powerful even without magic lol....The general thing did come out of nowhere but I wouldn't really go that far as to call it plot convenience because Hakuryuu WAS the rightful ruler to the throne and I think it's safe to say that anyone outside of AT within the Kou empire and with a little balls would surely take the side of Hakuryuu or the Kou brothers over AT, especially veteran and experienced Generals such as them

[spoiler] I guess my issue come from the fact that Mogamett somehow learned a spell that only David knew. I could understand literally anything else since Al Thamen was helping him, but how did he learn something that they didn't even know. He was very smart and did fall into depravity(though this is actually moot because it didn't happen until near the end of the battle in the manga because it was big plot point that his rukh was still pure despite him being a blatant racist) as you say, but for him to learn something that Arba didn't know just doesn't add up to me. How do you go about learning something from a place you didn't know existed and thus didn't even know the spell existed before people that were actually from there that have a genius Magi leading them? Unless like I said we'll be learning that David manipulated the situation somehow.
As for the strategy argument I think we differ on what constitutes a strategy. I don't think using the isolation barrier and then wailing on Gyokuen in a brutal sword fight with biting, kissing, and the help of two unexpected Generals is a strategy. I think the strategy went to hell twice. Once when they realized she was a badass Magi and again when they realized she was a badass swordsman. I think they used a heck of a lot of strategy up until the fight with capturing Belial and mind controlling a force to invade the capital, but against her there was no strategy. It was literally all out battle where anything goes. Hakuryuu used a lot of strategy to get where he is currently, but not in that fight in my opinion.

They (Well Gyokuen) did know about that technique, and what shocked her was the fact that somebody from this world was able to actually find out about the spell and learn it (I believe it's in the same chapter as her death when she said all of this) - Which in itself is a severe underestimation of the people of this world on her part hence why she praised them

The isolation barrier was Judar's tactic against her but like you said, that went to shit too.....I believe that their initial strategy was to use their new found power (Because they were pretty strong together) and double team her using their strength and Judar's new abilities + the hundreds of soldiers they mind controlled to help them however they underestimated her and it bit them in the ass

In short their strategy was to overwhelm her with shear numbers and powerful magic attacks and then later, upon the implementation of the barrier (Judar's strategy) they assumed that she was like Judar and would be useless without her magic and the strategy turned into the obvious one which was to completely overpower her physically

The second strategy laid the foundation for their victory but I do agree that it wasn't the deciding factor of how they achieved said victory[/spoiler]

You know that works for me. I guess with Mogamett being as good as he was at barrier magic (I believe this was said somewhere) it's perfectly plausible that he created the same ability on his own with no prior knowledge of the original since they are in a world created from the people of Alma Torran, though I personally like the David manipulated him theory better. Gyokuen was incredibly arrogant and she underestimated a lot of people, so that part fits too.
As for the strategy thing, I guess there's really no denying that it was one. An incredibly simple one, but still one nonetheless. I guess what I was arguing this whole time is that it wasn't a strategy between Judar and Hakuryuu that won the fight. It was a simple one that Judar worked out on his own when their original one fell apart.

Sep 3, 2015 5:52 AM

#35