What's your stance on religion in the world of today?
| NOTE: If you're religious this post may offend you. NOTE2: This post is not meant for religion hating but for discussion. Please keep all hateful comments to yourself. A while back I was sitting in physics class on a friday. Being friday and all that I was bored out of my mind, so I started to just scroll through my workbook. It was then that I realized how little we actually know about the world and how it works. Coincidentally we had discussed Galileo earlier and I remembered that he was forced to renounce his discovery that the Sun revolved around the Earth, not the other way around. This got me thinking how much we could have discovered and how far we could be right now if only the world had been different earlier, if religion hadn't controlled the world until fairly recently. And that's not all. How many wars have been fought, how many lives have been lost due to differences in religion? What amazes me the most is how it's still happening to all kinds of extremes even today, to the point that an open war was started by extremeist religious group. This topic is something that I haven't really gotten a chance to discuss since I'm in a fairly unique position - I live in a country where over 90% of the citizens are atheists (not kidding btw), I'm an atheist myself, I simply can't accept the existance of something without proof, yet my family is religious. I have both religious and atheist friends so discussing stuff like this would be "problematic". I think this is one of those topics that people just generally don't touch, especially publicly, since there's no way to really do it without offending someone So, an anonymous forum seems perfect, granted an anime forum might not be the best choice, but I'll take what I can get, since it's the only one I'm part of. Besides, most of you seem cool. Personally I don't hold any kind of grudge against religion as I don't think it's been all bad nor do I believe it would have been possible to have just one religion around the world, not without severe violence anyway (Gonna try not to offend anyone with my next sentance). I do however believe that religion is something that's outdated, it's time has passed. I got nothing against believeing that you shouldn't do onto others what you don't want done to yourself, but believeing in a God that somehow created the world, is almighty and stuff just isn't for me. I can't accept that if you got nothing but a 2000 year old book to prove it. So I guess my main question is what would the world be like today if religion had never existed, if it hadn't basically controlled everyones' lives 'till fairly recently? Do you think religion still has a place in this day and age? Do you think we will ever live in a world without any major religion? |
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FishingForPlebs said: NOTE2: This post is not meant for religion hating but for discussion. Please keep all hateful comments to yourself. You must be new here |
| I've been here way too long... |
TheConquerer said: FishingForPlebs said: NOTE2: This post is not meant for religion hating but for discussion. Please keep all hateful comments to yourself. You must be new here Guilty as charged |
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FishingForPlebs said: TheConquerer said: You must be new here Guilty as charged Anyway if you think religion is the source of violence or ignorance then I disagree, humans in general just have these things and manifest it through different ways. |
| I've been here way too long... |
| You shall not argue with religion. An internet arguement rule. You can never say world is better without religon, nor bad without it. I say that things have pros and cons. I imagine without religion, this world will be full of competition and vices. One thing religion helped the world is it can form a tradition for all believers. Doing this can be a great help for them, since they share their own beliefs. of course, religion also destroys, the other religion. Like a war, you need to be victorious over your enemy, because, unfortunately, religion consider other religion as enemies, since they claim something and denies the other. But without religion, how do you think people cooperate? Since people have different interest, it could be very hard to govern all of it. I say, religion, must not be removed. First of all it is part of the tradition, and second is it is beneficiary to the believers. The thing must be changed is the believers themselves. Some radical extremist is too inhuman to do something for their religion, and I call them not-humans. Hating religion just means you are not part of it. I am a Christian but I respect all other non-christians or christians, because I still value the people than my religion. |
| True, I don't believe religion to be the root of all evil, it just seems like a very convenient excuse to manifest a destructive or opressive desire. It's just that I believe it's had a lot of "collateral damage" on scientific development. |
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| Fuck religion, atheism master race |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
| Apparently Religion did halt lots of scientific discovery in some countries more than others. I don't want to get into specifics. |
 Behold of my awesomeness~ controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted. But my feels. |
| Religion today is fine as it is. It's already separated pretty nicely from politics (not talking about Muslim countries of course). It's some religious people's views and tolerance that should change. Religion did set us back but many things are also thanks to it. I mean, it was the churches and the priests that started teaching people how to write and read. And European culture from ~500 to 1300 is almost literally linked to religion. I personally think that religion will never disappear. Even though many people say it will because of new inventions and other stuff, but religion itself was never really an outdated thing as people say. Religion is not linked to a certain age, it's linked to people's mindset. Back in the day, people didn't turn to religion because they were so underdeveloped and uneducated, it was because religion gave them hope, a thing they can cling onto. And also because that way people found explanations to how the world worked. A huge vulcano exploded? - It must be some God doing his thing inside it! And as we don't know the future, the same thing can happen in theory. Something new, ununderstandable comes, and people turn to religion again to find an explanation. |
Szefi said: And European culture from ~500 to 1300 is almost literally linked to religion. Name 3 good things about pre-Renaissance Europe. |
| Not again oh the op is new |
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| Only the Abrahamic faiths for a while. Indian philosophers, then Greek philosophers thought about heliocentrism long before Galileo. https://sanatansinhnaad.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/heliocentric-solar-system/ |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| Yes, it did halt scientific research. It also burned books. They did keep some books though, so that's that. I doubt they wouldn't have been kept anyway. Religion as of now is completely useless though, negative for us even, abolishing it would be a good idea. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Szefi said: Religion today is fine as it is. It's already separated pretty nicely from politics Help Philippines dude, they think politics with religion is good. |
| NOTE3: then you shouldn't have created this thread... no one like threads that lead to hate. OT: first for me. /thread. |
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| The only thing inhibiting humanity's growth is repeat threads and repeat topics. OT: Of course not. It led to a lot of progress in many areas. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| Its provided more good than not. Fear of whats in the afterlife has often been a better means of control than fear of law and man. Religion has been a large part of progress and stability in a large number of regions and times. More than I care to, or will list. In fact I'm adding this topic to my hide list as I know it will turn into a shit storm. That being said religion could use a reformation. It has its useful roles in keeping society and the family unit stable and in line. |
FishingForPlebs said: NOTE: If you're religious this post may offend you. NOTE2: This post is not meant for religion hating but for discussion. Please keep all hateful comments to yourself. LOL. U crack me up, dude |
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RedArmyShogun said: Its provided more good than not. Fear of whats in the afterlife has often been a better means of control than fear of law and man. Religion has been a large part of progress and stability in a large number of regions and times. More than I care to, or will list. In fact I'm adding this topic to my hide list as I know it will turn into a shit storm. That being said religion could use a reformation. It has its useful roles in keeping society and the family unit stable and in line. But that is the beauty of it. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| Poll generalizes too much. Has religion ruined some stuff throughout history, yes. Absolutely. Is that a reason for religion to not exist? No. I don't think religion stands in the way of progress, religion combined with political power on the other hand... I wouldn't blame religion for the actions of power hungry people. I don't blame islam for a lot of the problems in the middle east, other countries have muslims and it's no problem. I don't think what the catholic church did 400 years ago is a valid argument against religion, most places allow people to pursue whatever quest for knowledge they want to nowadays (at least in the West). I don't think you should confuse people using religion with religion itself. People will always try to resist new ideas if it means they will lose power. That's why the catholics got mad at Luther and the other reformers, that's why people got executed for translating the bible to English. Heck if you believe the religious books that is why the parisees wanted to kill Jesus. As for the poll, I think most religions are fine, but I also think that the way religion is being used in some places of the world needs to change. Extremism is bad no matter what form it takes. |
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Plate said: The first universities, the medieval agricultural revolution, and the shift from slavery to serfdom.Szefi said: And European culture from ~500 to 1300 is almost literally linked to religion. Name 3 good things about pre-Renaissance Europe. |
Immahnoob said: Yeah religion is just a form of delusion and is a man made maniacal. The good things that have come from it could be said the same for the secular world. And just because it has good things does not make it true.Yes, it did halt scientific research. It also burned books. They did keep some books though, so that's that. I doubt they wouldn't have been kept anyway. Religion as of now is completely useless though, negative for us even, abolishing it would be a good idea. |
Behold of my awesomeness~ controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted. But my feels. |
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| Good lord, can we just merge all the religious threads into one big pile? This same question has more or less been asked in some other shape or form countless times already. |
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| Liberalism, democracy and political correctness have become the new inquisition. So we need a new generation of violent zealots to combat the cancer. The reason Europe is being invaded by Islam is they have been trying for millenia, but Europe fended them off by being united through religion and culture. Now that Europe is full of spiritual nihilists and "progressives it is vulnerable and the moors / ottomans know it. It will take more than accordian and srs face to remove kebab. American christendom while still influential is largely an apostate ziotocracy. We need a jesus-fuhrer with God tier powers to bitch slap sense into them. Obama ain't all that or even useful. Ron Paul too old and libertarian. The reps have nobody. But the western world needs the old time religion of witch burning era crazy to combat crazy. Japan should restore their shinto fanatacism love of the emperor and warrior spirit too less they fall into the same liberal democratic abyss. Let Sweden be a warning to everyone of the danger. namaste |
AllenVonStein said: 'Not again oh the op is new note username |
| There was a thread with a very similar title a few months ago. |
| Some people constantly seek meaning in their lives and in the events that happen in them. Some also prefer to follow a communal value system. As long as these traits exist in a percentage of humans, there will be individuals who will look for some greater being or an institution that caters to those needs. I think a number of religious institutions are flawed, and humanity's growth can be improved by changing them to be more productive and less grating with reality and "progress." |
| Dogma, irrationality, faith, contentedness with ignorance. As long as religion (or anything else) espouses and represents those ideals, it's bad for civilization. If you want to define religion as a more general, personal "spirituality", that's fine. But in any conflict of interest, any at all, science and reason had better win. Ultimately, I don't think religion serves any positive purposes that we can't attain through other means, but I do think it produces harms unique to it which wouldn't exist without it. FishingForPlebs said: True, I don't believe religion to be the root of all evil, it just seems like a very convenient excuse to manifest a destructive or opressive desire. It's just that I believe it's had a lot of "collateral damage" on scientific development. Immahnoob said: I agree with these, though I wouldn't abolish the private practice I mentioned earlier.Yes, it did halt scientific research. It also burned books. They did keep some books though, so that's that. I doubt they wouldn't have been kept anyway. Religion as of now is completely useless though, negative for us even, abolishing it would be a good idea. |
FahtahSensei said: You seem to misunderstand something here: there is no Islam vs Christianity. Why would the US work together with Saudi Arabia and a few other selected Countries in the Middle East, then? Or why had Wilhelm II visited Palestine?The reason Europe is being invaded by Islam is they have been trying for millenia, but Europe fended them off by being united through religion and culture. Now that Europe is full of spiritual nihilists and "progressives it is vulnerable and the moors / ottomans know it. Or Hitler with the Arabic World? FishingForPlebs said: Probably nowhere, as many important Inventions like Printing Press had been made and spread because of Religion.This got me thinking how much we could have discovered and how far we could be right now if only the world had been different earlier, if religion hadn't controlled the world until fairly recently. Science and Religion don't exclude themselves: Overall, Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace,[7] 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics,[7] 62% in Medicine,[7] 54% in Economics[7] and 49.5% of all Literature awards.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/03/science-and-religion-quotes-scientists-god_n_1182521.html |
NoboruApr 19, 2015 1:50 PM
Noboru said: That's not to say they wouldn't have come about anyway. Besides, it's a tradeoff: sure there were some advancements with religious influence that you can point to, but who knows advancements we missed out on because of historical religious suppression of early scientists/thinkers?Probably nowhere, as many important Inventions like Printing Press had been made and spread because of Religion. Noboru said: [/quote]Scientific and religious mindsets do, though. As enterprises, they are mutually exclusive. Just because great people in history have been able to rationalize and keep the two separate doesn't vindicate religiosity.Science and Religion don't exclude themselves: Overall, Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace,[7] 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics,[7] 62% in Medicine,[7] 54% in Economics[7] and 49.5% of all Literature awards.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/03/science-and-religion-quotes-scientists-god_n_1182521.html |
Solipsistic said: Are you referring to specific Persons or is it just a general Assumption?sure there were some advancements with religious influence that you can point to, but who knows advancements we missed out on because of historical religious suppression of early scientists/thinkers? Solipsistic said: We can also play it the other Way around: Just because not so great People in History have not been able to rationalize and didn't keep the two separate doesn't vindicate non-religiosity.Just because great people in history have been able to rationalize and keep the two separate doesn't vindicate religiosity. |
FahtahSensei said: Liberalism, democracy and political correctness have become the new inquisition. I agree with this point and feels that I need to add something on this matter. The real hindrance to human progress is not specifically caused by religion, but rather by the lack of freedom of thoughts. Religion did this with dogma, while political correctness arose from herd mentality under the guise of morals. Critical thinking abilities would be hampered if we can't think freely without being labelled as heretic or nefarious villains. Let alone to be implied with guilt for having a thoughts. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
Noboru said: Are you referring to specific Persons or is it just a general Assumption? Neither, it was a general assertion that I thought obvious. If you want me to dig up examples I will. Noboru said: We can also play it the other Way around: Just because not so great People in History have not been able to rationalize and didn't keep the two separate doesn't vindicate non-religiosity. It does, actually. Like I said earlier, the results of science and rationality stand on their own merits, and we'd benefit from them even without religion. This is what I meant: a successful religious scientist doesn't prove that true religiosity is compatible with scientific advancements, let alone helpful or necessary for them. It just means that he has been able to keep the religious influence confined to his private, emotional life. If you try to "play it the other way around": the fact that bad people didn't keep the two separate DOES support non-religiosity, because the religion is what was contributing to them being bad. Therefore, non-religiosity, aka secularism, would've solved/prevented the issue. To summarize (it's a sweeping generalization but it gets the gist of my point across): secular rationality is sufficient for advancing civilization, religion (or an analogously dogmatic system) is necessary for holding it back. |
| No it is humanity |
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Solipsistic said: Sorry for not finding the right Term. If you don't mind, then please do.Neither, it was a general assertion that I thought obvious. If you want me to dig up examples I will. a successful religious scientist doesn't prove that true religiosity is compatible with scientific advancements, let alone helpful or necessary for them. It just means that he has been able to keep the religious influence confined to his private, emotional life. While the last Statement is true, it doesn't prove that Religiosity would be incompatible with scientific Advancements, either.You can never know how motivated those Scientists have become to do their Research because they were religious. I agree with you, that Secularism has helped the Civilization, however, I disagree with you in the Point, that you would need Religion to have the Society hold back. It's not the Religion which is holding Scientists and Thinkers back, it's the People themselves who can't separate both of them. |
Noburo said: I think imagination and curiosity started existing with man, not with Religion.You can never know how motivated those Scientists have become to do their Research because they were religious. Religion wants you to be irrational and ignorant. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: And I think Imagination and Curiosity started existing with the Belief in at least one higher Being.Noboru said: I think imagination and curiosity started existing with man, not with Religion.You can never know how motivated those Scientists have become to do their Research because they were religious. |
NoboruApr 19, 2015 2:51 PM
Noboru said: That's putting the cart in front of the horse.Immahnoob said: And I think Imagination and Curiosity started existing with the Belief in at least one higher Being.I think imagination and curiosity started existing with man, not with Religion. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Zergneedsfood said: And I would indeed stipulate something along those lines, but my claim wasn't actually this strong. I was just saying that our current global civilization would get along just fine (and in fact reap great benefits) without religion. I agree that speculative "what-if's" about distant history is messy business.Hmmm....I think the first part is really hard to argue, if only because it's too hard to rule out the importance of religion both as a cultural as well as political/economic influence. A large part of the financial world around the 13th and 14th century for instance (talking about Florence here) were run by religious institutions, and I think it's a bit difficult to hypothesize clearly the political and cultural forces that would have kept society in place. We can stipulate that an alternative to religious rule must exist in the absence, but without any specifics, I'm not a fan of this kind of reasoning because it holds little to no solvency. Zergneedsfood said: Marxism itself may be "far from a religious idea", but in the historical context it was practiced it had those elements in common with religion that I mentioned in my other post, mainly dogmatic authoritarianism. Soviet Marxism, National Socialism, Maoist Communism...these are in essence state religions. By the very fact of their being "anti-innovation and progress" I would not call them rationally based. I also don't think I agree so much with that last part. I mean, if we're talking about the oppression of free thinkers/scientists, we only have to look at Maoist China and The Hundred Flowers campaign or Stalinist Russia (or even pre-Stalinist Russia, since most of the great thinkers in Russia were revolutionaries who ended up in jail). Marxism is far from a religious idea but almost by definition of being anti-capitalistic it is close to being anti-innovation and progress. Zergneedsfood said: Just read my first post ITT. Religion is not the only instantiation of those elements I mentioned there; it's just the most common one. I'm not saying horrors and oppression can't manifest areligiously. Secularism plus rational and Enlightenment ideals are what characterize environments where those sorts of things can't grow. If you'd still try to disagree, what you'd need are examples of secular humanism gone awry.There's plenty of other examples of horrible practices that spawn from secular cultural influences. Religion, yes, is often used as an inhibitor of this kind of behavior but secular states and societies are honestly perfectly capable of doing terrible things to people without religious force. |
okagesamaApr 19, 2015 2:51 PM
| "Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." |
Immahnoob said: No, imho it's not too far-fetched to think that the first Humans used to explain their own Entity with the Existence of a higher Being first.Noboru said: That's putting the cart in front of the horse.And I think Imagination and Curiosity started existing with the Belief in at least one higher Being. fixed Quote btw. when will you ever learn? q.q |
Noboru said: Where do you think the higher entity came from?Immahnoob said: No, imho it's not too far-fetched to think that the first Humans used to explain their own Entity with the Existence of a higher Being first.That's putting the cart in front of the horse. His imagination and curiosity.  |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Can you prove that, though? With Imagination and Curiosity, you can have the Concept of a Religion, but it doesn't prove that higher Beings are but mere Products of Phantasy. How would you explain the Existence of the Concept if there weren't any Blueprints for it to be developed by the Human Mind? Also, just a quick Question: Do you deny, that religious Beliefs had played a Role for certain People, who helped with the Advancement of the Human Civilization? |
NoboruApr 19, 2015 3:06 PM
| Actually, you're the one that has to prove that they are not a mere concept of fantasy. Since when would I need to disprove the existence of something if it wasn't proven to be existing already? What type of retarded shit are you asking me? "Hey, HOW DO YOU KNOW UNICORNS WEREN'T A THING.", you're shifting the burden of proof here like crazy. I wonder how, by using their fucking brains maybe? Or to you blind and deaf individuals don't have imagination? No, I'm saying you're the one that has to prove that, and before you start, it's quite irrelevant in the first place, especially to my argument. I'm saying religion should no longer exist, not that it shouldn't have existed. Surely, some were moved by the idea of "finding god" or some shit like that, it doesn't mean jack shit to my argument. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: I'm saying religion should no longer exist, not that it shouldn't have existed. Surely, some were moved by the idea of "finding god" or some shit like that. So you are saying that people like that no longer exist? |
Noboru said: Can you prove that, though? With Imagination and Curiosity, you can have the Concept of a Religion, but it doesn't prove that higher Beings are but mere Products of Phantasy. How would you explain the Existence of the Concept if there weren't any Blueprints for it to be developed by the Human Mind? Also, just a quick Question: Do you deny, that religious Beliefs had played a Role for certain People, who helped with the Advancement of the Human Civilization? No one has yet argued against this. Just hypothetical thoughts that get you nowhere. If we break it down to the here and now, you will still have the problem of what should replace it and how efficient it will be (whatever that system is.) No thought or belief system is free of issues, even strict rationalism. |
RedRoseFringApr 19, 2015 3:23 PM
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| @ Immahnoob: Why should I need to prove something that is impossible to prove? I'm merely holding the Possibility of the Existence of at least one higher Being in Contrast with the Possibility, that none of them Exists, in Consideration. Blind and deaf Individuals can have Imagination, but it might work differently from People, who are neither. It can also depend on whether they've had any Experience with Seeing and/or Hearing. I see your Point then. Thanks for elaborating it. |
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