| Who is really selfish? People committing suicide or people who stop people from committing suicide? Let's say you called 911 after a friend attempted to overdose If a person wanted to kill themselves, and leave all their love ones behind, you could call that selfish? However, to go against a persons freedom would kind of be selfish on your part. They want to die, but you want them to live... doesn't that make you selfish for not respecting their wishes, but rather your own? Isn't it selfish to tell a person who calls themselves worthless that their life means something... simply cause you want them to live. Why is a persons value subject to what people around them say. Now would I do that to save any of my friends... Of course I would, you're fucked up if you wouldn't. However... Would I be selfish? Would I be greedy. Or would the person killing themself be selfish for not caring about their freind. I think I would be a selfish person for that, and that's fine. Yes, it's selfish to save people from suicide just becuase "you", would miss them... But it's also selfish to take your own life in the first place. So I guess the two selfish decisions justify each other |
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| I'd say how many people want the emo guy to live. If they are more than one, then it would really be selfish for the emo to just go and kill himself. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
| You have to be completely delusional to accept that your mentally ill friend wants to kill themselves and just let them do it. lol You guys need a break from the internet if you think that way |
marriage said: You have to be completely delusional to accept that your mentally ill friend wants to kill themselves and just let them do it. lol You guys need a break from the internet if you think that way Some people really do want to kill themselves. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
| Neither |
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marriage said: You have to be completely delusional to accept that your mentally ill friend wants to kill themselves and just let them do it. lol You guys need a break from the internet if you think that way Not all suicidal people are mentally ill... And while I would selfishly violate their individuality, I admit that it's because I'm selfish and don't want them to die. However, saving them wouldn't make me a hero... it would just make me an average selfish person and if I do it and take pride in it... would that make me arrogant and boastful by feeling like a "hero" for getting in the way of a persons fee will |
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| You: falls down the stairs Me: thinks philosophically about stairs, staircases and steps as you die from your injuries |
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dragon_ball_z said: I don't see how asking someone to not kill themselves is selfish. You aren't doing it only for you. That person has parents, possibly siblings, cousins, grandparents, etc. So, you are asking them on behalf of a vast majority of people. Someone may feel alone in this world, but there are people that care for them and they may not even know or realize it. but aren't all those people selfish for caring more about their feelings than the individuals free will |
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| Both are selfish. Suicidal person for putting their needs first and disregarding how it might effect others after they're gone. And person stopping them for doing it to keep them around because they /want/ them around. But just because both are selfish doesn't mean that either are wrong. |
dragon_ball_z said: silversongwriter said: but aren't all those people selfish for caring more about their feelings than the individuals free will If caring for others is seen as being selfish, then I must be an extremely selfish person lol. As am I |
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silversongwriter said: marriage said: You have to be completely delusional to accept that your mentally ill friend wants to kill themselves and just let them do it. lol You guys need a break from the internet if you think that way Not all suicidal people are mentally ill... And while I would selfishly violate their individuality, I admit that it's because I'm selfish and don't want them to die. However, saving them wouldn't make me a hero... it would just make me an average selfish person and if I do it and take pride in it... would that make me arrogant and boastful by feeling like a "hero" for getting in the way of a persons fee will Suicide and mental illness go hand in hand. Even if you consider the ones that want to die because theyre in pain from some terminal illness, they probably have depression. Youre completely wrong if you think suicide is a decision that only rational people make |
| It's selfish to die, but it's selfish to save too. Basically what happens is you're shouldering the selfishness with them. It's kinda sad, but you definitely have reached out to them that day no matter how they react to it. |
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marriage said: silversongwriter said: Not all suicidal people are mentally ill... And while I would selfishly violate their individuality, I admit that it's because I'm selfish and don't want them to die. However, saving them wouldn't make me a hero... it would just make me an average selfish person and if I do it and take pride in it... would that make me arrogant and boastful by feeling like a "hero" for getting in the way of a persons fee will Suicide and mental illness go hand in hand. Even if you consider the ones that want to die because theyre in pain from some terminal illness, they probably have depression. Youre completely wrong if you think suicide is a decision that only rational people make If a person lost a lover or hated thier sexuality... those would be reasons, therefore, it would not make them mentally ill as they have a clear motive. But in the end, wha objectively makes our ideas better than the so called "mentally ill"... even if their motives for wanting to die seem trivial to you, they're a huge deal to that person. But then again... they're still selfish and so are the people that save them... and so are most people. Generousity and selfishness go one in the same. How many people do you actually think do selfless things for selfless reasons. If you give to people just to make yourself feel like a better person, you're still selfish. Just as a rich man who donates millions in charity to boost thier own name is selfish... People make selfless actions... but very, very rarely do people have selfless thought patterns |
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silversongwriter said: marriage said: Suicide and mental illness go hand in hand. Even if you consider the ones that want to die because theyre in pain from some terminal illness, they probably have depression. Youre completely wrong if you think suicide is a decision that only rational people make If a person lost a lover or hated thier sexuality... those would be reasons, therefore, it would not make them mentally ill as they have a clear motive. But in the end, wha objectively makes our ideas better than the so called "mentally ill"... even if their motives for wanting to die seem trivial to you, they're a huge deal to that person. But then again... they're still selfish and so are the people that save them... and so are most people. Generousity and selfishness go one in the same. How many people do you actually think do selfless things for selfless reasons. If you give to people just to make yourself feel like a better person, you're still selfish. Just as a rich man who donates millions in charity to boost thier own name is selfish... People make selfless actions... but very, very rarely do people have selfless thought patterns Literally everything goes back to depression. If you hate your sexuality you are depressed. If you want to die because someone broke up with you then you are depressed too. No normal person decides to kill themselves because their gf broke up with them one day without having deeper problems. And its psychopathic to twist human grief into something selfish and unnatural |
| Please join my yaoi club for further philosophical mediations on suicide. vvvv |
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marriage said: And its psychopathic to twist human grief into something selfish and unnatural I wasn't... in fact, I think selfish and unnatural are an oxymoron. I think the more unnatural to actually be selfless marriage said: If you hate your sexuality you are depressed. What if your only doing to cause you think you're going to hell and you wanna get it over with... that would be a solid rational thought process in the context of religion. |
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| Remember the incredibles movie? Yeah both are selfish as hell, though I would tend to be on the side that helps, because most of the time people can be saved. |
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silversongwriter said: marriage said: And its psychopathic to twist human grief into something selfish and unnatural I wasn't... in fact, I think selfish and unnatural are an oxymoron. I think the more unnatural to actually be selfless marriage said: If you hate your sexuality you are depressed. What if your only doing to cause you think you're going to hell and you wanna get it over with... that would be a solid rational thought process in the context of religion. Im just talking about selfishness and suicide though, not doing good things for people like donating money. You are still depressed if you hate yourself, and Im sure the parents would be considered abusive for brainwashing the kid into thinking theyre going to hell and deserve death |
| They are both selfish in some cases. F.e. The one who commits suicide is selfish because he/she does not think of all the pain and sadness he/she could cause to his/her loved ones. And the one who tries to save people from suicide is selfish because in some cases death can be salvation for someone. If you are poor, live on the streets, don't have any family and you have no hope for a better life, for example. |
marriage said: silversongwriter said: I wasn't... in fact, I think selfish and unnatural are an oxymoron. I think the more unnatural to actually be selfless What if your only doing to cause you think you're going to hell and you wanna get it over with... that would be a solid rational thought process in the context of religion. Im just talking about selfishness and suicide though, not doing good things for people like donating money. You are still depressed if you hate yourself, and Im sure the parents would be considered abusive for brainwashing the kid into thinking theyre going to hell and deserve death What if they came to that conclusion thier own by simply reading the bible? It's not something parents need to say.... biblically, it's true so to kill yourself for that reason means you do have a thought process you can rationalize |
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Nyelsanae said: Sakuyae said: They are both selfish in some cases. F.e. The one who commits suicide is selfish because he/she does not think of all the pain and sadness he/she could cause to his/her loved ones. And the one who tries to save people from suicide is selfish because in some cases death can be salvation for someone. If you are poor, live on the streets, don't have any family and you have no hope for a better life, for example. (Hurting people) or (denying "salvation") => being selfish? Yes. Because you only think of yourself in both sides. |
silversongwriter said: marriage said: Im just talking about selfishness and suicide though, not doing good things for people like donating money. You are still depressed if you hate yourself, and Im sure the parents would be considered abusive for brainwashing the kid into thinking theyre going to hell and deserve death What if they came to that conclusion thier own by simply reading the bible? It's not something parents need to say.... biblically, it's true so to kill yourself for that reason means you do have a thought process you can rationalize Its completely irrational to kill yourself after reading something. Would you kill yourself if someone wrote a long book about how your favorite anime sucks? I just dont understand why you think non-mentally ill people just get up and decide to kill themselves out of nowhere |
silversongwriter said: get off the internet retardmarriage said: Im just talking about selfishness and suicide though, not doing good things for people like donating money. You are still depressed if you hate yourself, and Im sure the parents would be considered abusive for brainwashing the kid into thinking theyre going to hell and deserve death What if they came to that conclusion thier own by simply reading the bible? It's not something parents need to say.... biblically, it's true so to kill yourself for that reason means you do have a thought process you can rationalize there are a lot of helplines people can call if they are going through shit humans are hardwired to want to survive and if they don't they are mentally ill and need help nothing, absolutely NOTHING can rationalise suicide as for "selfishness" in this situation. no, its not selfish for someone to commit suicide any more than it's selfish for someone to pass away from cancer. both are illnesses and some win the fight and some don't, and people need to stop stigmatising mentally ill individuals with shit like "suicide is selfish" way to make someone who is suicidal feel more shitty about themselves. it is not and never will be selfish to lose the fight but tell someone they are selfish for thinking about it and they'll only think why bother fighting, i'm already a bad person for being selfish. yeah, okay. mentally ill people need to have their feelings validated, but also told that there is help for them. so its not selfish to stop someone from committing suicide either, because its not them that wants to actually die, it's just a part of their illness. support your friends in their recover and don't ever feel like its selfish, because that's retarded. |
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| Neither are selfish, or both are selfish. It all depends on the person and the situation. |
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Ginpika said: silversongwriter said: get off the internet retardWhat if they came to that conclusion thier own by simply reading the bible? It's not something parents need to say.... biblically, it's true so to kill yourself for that reason means you do have a thought process you can rationalize there are a lot of helplines people can call if they are going through shit humans are hardwired to want to survive and if they don't they are mentally ill and need help nothing, absolutely NOTHING can rationalise suicide as for "selfishness" in this situation. no, its not selfish for someone to commit suicide any more than it's selfish for someone to pass away from cancer. both are illnesses and some win the fight and some don't, and people need to stop stigmatising mentally ill individuals with shit like "suicide is selfish" way to make someone who is suicidal feel more shitty about themselves. it is not and never will be selfish to lose the fight but tell someone they are selfish for thinking about it and they'll only think why bother fighting, i'm already a bad person for being selfish. yeah, okay. mentally ill people need to have their feelings validated, but also told that there is help for them. so its not selfish to stop someone from committing suicide either, because its not them that wants to actually die, it's just a part of their illness. support your friends in their recover and don't ever feel like its selfish, because that's retarded. I don't believe that... if someone can give a specific reason why they wanna die, particularly if it's for religious reasons like self-hate or fear of hell, then they have used thier minds to justify why they wanna kill themselves. |
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Nyelsanae said: Sakuyae said: Yes. Because you only think of yourself in both sides. Sometimes people commit suicide even being aware of the damage they cause. Both alive or dead they'll unavoidably do it, so they choose it as considering it the lesser evil On the other side, one may try to deny salvation by thinking in potential harm to other ones instead of himself. Just for putting two examples, there are plenty of particular cases where "only thinking in oneself" is not exactly the main issue. That's why I said in my original post "in some cases". I was not saying 100% of the time they are selfish. |
silversongwriter said: self-hate is the main symptom of depressionGinpika said: get off the internet retard there are a lot of helplines people can call if they are going through shit humans are hardwired to want to survive and if they don't they are mentally ill and need help nothing, absolutely NOTHING can rationalise suicide as for "selfishness" in this situation. no, its not selfish for someone to commit suicide any more than it's selfish for someone to pass away from cancer. both are illnesses and some win the fight and some don't, and people need to stop stigmatising mentally ill individuals with shit like "suicide is selfish" way to make someone who is suicidal feel more shitty about themselves. it is not and never will be selfish to lose the fight but tell someone they are selfish for thinking about it and they'll only think why bother fighting, i'm already a bad person for being selfish. yeah, okay. mentally ill people need to have their feelings validated, but also told that there is help for them. so its not selfish to stop someone from committing suicide either, because its not them that wants to actually die, it's just a part of their illness. support your friends in their recover and don't ever feel like its selfish, because that's retarded. I don't believe that... if someone can give a specific reason why they wanna die, particularly if it's for religious reasons like self-hate or fear of hell, then they have used thier minds to justify why they wanna kill themselves. and SUICIDES GO TO HELL 0/10 TRY AGAIN |
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| I'm selfish and I get what I want. |
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| I want people around me to live, but I don't want them to live just because I want them to live. Ideally they'd say "oh, people care about me, so maybe life doesn't suck"... but if they were to just go "people want me around so I'm going to be around"... that's not so good. I can't make someone live if their life is pure suffering for them, especially not if my life doesn't depend on their survival. Nobody has any obligation to be a background character in my story, if they don't want to be, and I have no obligation to be a background character in theirs. So I don't think suicide is very selfish unless you're responsible for caring for someone who absolutely could not survive without you. But then, most successful suicide attempts are probably pretty spontaneous and poorly thought through, so I'm not sure if they can be blamed too much. If they came back to life after being told of the consequences if they didn't, they could be regretting their actions instantly. |
 ~ join the MAL suicide pact! ~ ~ ★☭★ ~ ~ embrace nuclear annihilation! ~ |
Ginpika said: self-hate is the main symptom of depression it's not even 'one of the main symptoms' because it doesn't have to be present... it's just a possible indicator Ginpika said: and SUICIDES GO TO HELL 0/10 TRY AGAIN umm so does everyone except 100,000 circumcised homeless virgin jews for jesus |
~ join the MAL suicide pact! ~ ~ ★☭★ ~ ~ embrace nuclear annihilation! ~ |
Involtus said: I want people around me to live, but I don't want them to live just because I want them to live. Ideally they'd say "oh, people care about me, so maybe life doesn't suck"... but if they were to just go "people want me around so I'm going to be around"... that's not so good. I can't make someone live if their life is pure suffering for them, especially not if my life doesn't depend on their survival. Nobody has any obligation to be a background character in my story, if they don't want to be, and I have no obligation to be a background character in theirs. So I don't think suicide is very selfish unless you're responsible for caring for someone who absolutely could not survive without you. But then, most successful suicide attempts are probably pretty spontaneous and poorly thought through, so I'm not sure if they can be blamed too much. If they came back to life after being told of the consequences if they didn't, they could be regretting their actions instantly. Bravo, well said |
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| You don't get to kill yourself in front of me, it's as simple has that. |
Involtus said: what the fuckGinpika said: self-hate is the main symptom of depression it's not even 'one of the main symptoms' because it doesn't have to be present... it's just a possible indicator Ginpika said: and SUICIDES GO TO HELL 0/10 TRY AGAIN umm so does everyone except 100,000 circumcised homeless virgin jews for jesus suicide is a sin in the bible. it doesn't matter what church you belong to, it's a sin. i don't believe in this shit, but that guy seemed to think a fear of hell was a good reason to commit suicide when it's obviously not. as for self hate being a symptom. what in your world is a symptom of major depression if it's not self-hate and suicidal ideation? i know what depression is, i have suffered from it alongside an eating disorder and i know that if you see a psychiatrist and just say "i feel bad and tired" they are probably gonna refer you to a doctor to check your thyroid or a sleep clinic to make sure you're sleeping well. they will try to treat the body before they treat the mind. but go to a psychiatrist and say "i'm a major fuck up, no one likes me, i'll always screw up i'm ugly and i'm failing out of school and i don't even care anymore but its so stressful when people bug me about it, and they just think i'm stupid because i can't do this, why am i even alive?" then yeah that psychiatrist will take a depression diagnoses more seriously |
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Ginpika said: Involtus said: what the fuckit's not even 'one of the main symptoms' because it doesn't have to be present... it's just a possible indicator umm so does everyone except 100,000 circumcised homeless virgin jews for jesus suicide is a sin in the bible. it doesn't matter what church you belong to, it's a sin. i don't believe in this shit, but that guy seemed to think a fear of hell was a good reason to commit suicide when it's obviously not. as for self hate being a symptom. what in your world is a symptom of major depression if it's not self-hate and suicidal ideation? i know what depression is, i have suffered from it alongside an eating disorder and i know that if you see a psychiatrist and just say "i feel bad and tired" they are probably gonna refer you to a doctor to check your thyroid or a sleep clinic to make sure you're sleeping well. they will try to treat the body before they treat the mind. but go to a psychiatrist and say "i'm a major fuck up, no one likes me, i'll always screw up i'm ugly and i'm failing out of school and i don't even care anymore but its so stressful when people bug me about it, and they just think i'm stupid because i can't do this, why am i even alive?" then yeah that psychiatrist will take a depression diagnoses more seriously But what will a doctor do if a person is killing themselves cause they think God hates them |
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| Well regardless of if I knew the person or not I'd probably try and talk them out of it since they probably are over-reacting. Its hardly selfish since I don't get anything out of helping them. |
| I've been here way too long... |
| Each one is selfish. What you justify as the means to the end is in oneself and their morality. If you can convince the suicidal person that there is more to live for, then by all means, that is a wonderful thing, but them wanting to kill themselves is as selfish as you wanting to save them. It's a contradicting process of clashing ideals. |
Life isn't worth living if one isn't dreaming. Life isn't worth dreaming if one isn't doing. |
Ginpika said: Involtus said: what the fuckit's not even 'one of the main symptoms' because it doesn't have to be present... it's just a possible indicator umm so does everyone except 100,000 circumcised homeless virgin jews for jesus suicide is a sin in the bible. it doesn't matter what church you belong to, it's a sin. i don't believe in this shit, but that guy seemed to think a fear of hell was a good reason to commit suicide when it's obviously not. as for self hate being a symptom. what in your world is a symptom of major depression if it's not self-hate and suicidal ideation? i know what depression is, i have suffered from it alongside an eating disorder and i know that if you see a psychiatrist and just say "i feel bad and tired" they are probably gonna refer you to a doctor to check your thyroid or a sleep clinic to make sure you're sleeping well. they will try to treat the body before they treat the mind. but go to a psychiatrist and say "i'm a major fuck up, no one likes me, i'll always screw up i'm ugly and i'm failing out of school and i don't even care anymore but its so stressful when people bug me about it, and they just think i'm stupid because i can't do this, why am i even alive?" then yeah that psychiatrist will take a depression diagnoses more seriously Dude, chillax, don't get your knickers in a twist |
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| refer them to a priest that doesns't have the phelps mentalaity. then that priest will preach the god is love, god is forgiving, judge not lest ye be judged etc preist stuff and that, along with couselling with a professional therapist will probably convince anyone that god doesn't hate any of us and the last thing god wants us to do is commit suicide honestly, if you bothered to use your brain or learn a thing or two about mental illness and treatment and spirituality you'd know this |
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Ginpika said: refer them to a priest that doesns't have the phelps mentalaity. then that priest will preach the god is love, god is forgiving, judge not lest ye be judged etc preist stuff and that, along with couselling with a professional therapist will probably convince anyone that god doesn't hate any of us and the last thing god wants us to do is commit suicide honestly, if you bothered to use your brain or learn a thing or two about mental illness and treatment and spirituality you'd know this However, if this person believes the bible... then they'll think they're going to hell anyway, regardless... because a preacher would have to contradict the bible to tell him otherwise. I had a freind who believed that God has certain people that he predestined to hate before they were born, and that group is gays. Since he was gay, he believed God hated him and made him gay on purpose so he can have someone to hate. And that he had been hated since he was in his mothers womb... He believed that pretty adamantly and no preacher could have convinced him otherwise. Plus, I don't know where you live, but most pastors would just tell them to pray and God will make them straight |
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Ginpika said: Involtus said: what the fuckit's not even 'one of the main symptoms' because it doesn't have to be present... it's just a possible indicator umm so does everyone except 100,000 circumcised homeless virgin jews for jesus suicide is a sin in the bible. it doesn't matter what church you belong to, it's a sin. i don't believe in this shit, but that guy seemed to think a fear of hell was a good reason to commit suicide when it's obviously not. as for self hate being a symptom. what in your world is a symptom of major depression if it's not self-hate and suicidal ideation? i know what depression is, i have suffered from it alongside an eating disorder and i know that if you see a psychiatrist and just say "i feel bad and tired" they are probably gonna refer you to a doctor to check your thyroid or a sleep clinic to make sure you're sleeping well. they will try to treat the body before they treat the mind. but go to a psychiatrist and say "i'm a major fuck up, no one likes me, i'll always screw up i'm ugly and i'm failing out of school and i don't even care anymore but its so stressful when people bug me about it, and they just think i'm stupid because i can't do this, why am i even alive?" then yeah that psychiatrist will take a depression diagnoses more seriously the bible is for the jews my 'book' is whatever diagnostic manual you subscribe to self-hate isn't a necessary symptom, so you absolutely cannot call it 'the main symptom' i said that already and no, you said self-hate was the 'main' one, not suicide ideation, which is not necessarily related to that either, and also not necessarily a symptom of depression and no, you can't trivialize every other symptom of depression with "i feel bad and tired" and pretend you're making a point, it depends on the individual and it can be a lot more complex and painful than that and no, believing other people are against you is not necessarily entwined with self-hate either just like depressed mood, poor confidence, reduced self esteem (yep, that's not self-hate), extreme pessimistic thoughts, high stress levels, reduced energy, anxiety, nightmares, grief over your dead wife, friend, dog, 3DS depressed mood is the most important symptom, if there has to be one, and there probably doesn't but no, a doctor won't just ask you 'are you in a bad mood?' and you say 'yes' and get drugs they talk to you and find out the extent to which your daily life is impaired by your depressed mood, and what other symptoms you have alongside that (which may include self-hate, and which may not include self-hate at all) ca pi che |
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Involtus said: Ginpika said: what the fuck suicide is a sin in the bible. it doesn't matter what church you belong to, it's a sin. i don't believe in this shit, but that guy seemed to think a fear of hell was a good reason to commit suicide when it's obviously not. as for self hate being a symptom. what in your world is a symptom of major depression if it's not self-hate and suicidal ideation? i know what depression is, i have suffered from it alongside an eating disorder and i know that if you see a psychiatrist and just say "i feel bad and tired" they are probably gonna refer you to a doctor to check your thyroid or a sleep clinic to make sure you're sleeping well. they will try to treat the body before they treat the mind. but go to a psychiatrist and say "i'm a major fuck up, no one likes me, i'll always screw up i'm ugly and i'm failing out of school and i don't even care anymore but its so stressful when people bug me about it, and they just think i'm stupid because i can't do this, why am i even alive?" then yeah that psychiatrist will take a depression diagnoses more seriously the bible is for the jews my 'book' is whatever diagnostic manual you subscribe to self-hate isn't a necessary symptom, so you absolutely cannot call it 'the main symptom' i said that already and no, you said self-hate was the 'main' one, not suicide ideation, which is not necessarily related to that either, and also not necessarily a symptom of depression and no, you can't trivialize every other symptom of depression with "i feel bad and tired" and pretend you're making a point, it depends on the individual and it can be a lot more complex and painful than that and no, believing other people are against you is not necessarily entwined with self-hate either just like depressed mood, poor confidence, reduced self esteem (yep, that's not self-hate), extreme pessimistic thoughts, high stress levels, reduced energy, anxiety, nightmares, grief over your dead wife, friend, dog, 3DS depressed mood is the most important symptom, if there has to be one, and there probably doesn't but no, a doctor won't just ask you 'are you in a bad mood?' and you say 'yes' and get drugs they talk to you and find out the extent to which your daily life is impaired by your depressed mood, and what other symptoms you have alongside that (which may include self-hate, and which may not include self-hate at all) ca pi che You don't read the bible, however, if someone is suicidal because they think God hates them, then the bible becomes pretty relevant |
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