Nobunaga the Fool Episode 21 Discussion

Offline

May 2014

257

He really should have let Mitsu die. Would have saved a lot of pain and trouble. Also Caesar would have been able to help with fighting Arthur. And we know that Caesar is worth more than Jeanne and Saru combined.

Like their wedding their funeral was private. Sounds right.

Mitsu is a walking contradiction and hypocrite...

Jun 16, 2014 1:33 AM

#302

Offline

May 2014

386

Oh well caesar is too nice, he doesnt want ichi to be sad..

In a way nobukatsu is far more innocent than ichi, he doesnt seem to have any knowledge of politics and stuff that ichi seems to understand, he loves his brother dearly, and yet.. sigh

Nobukatsu was too good for the crapsack world in NBTF, so is ichi and caesar

Jun 16, 2014 1:40 AM

#303

Offline

May 2014

257

Indeed...

Well, Ichi was probably trained her whole life on how to be a proper bride and that she would more than likely one day leave and marry another lord. So they probably weren't as strict on Nobukatsu.

Yeah, they really are too good for that world.

Jun 16, 2014 2:22 AM

#304

Offline

Jun 2014

207

I'm sure Ichi was groomed to be a future bride to a lord Azai perhaps lol... I think it would have been funny if the first place Caesar conquered in the east star was the Azai lands. Well, back on topic if Ichi was obviously meant for a lord. Why did she practically open her legs to Mitsu? She was probably looking for a shoulder to cry on.

Jun 16, 2014 2:32 AM

#305

Offline

May 2014

257

Probably was. LOL That would have been hilarious. XD You know, they always mention other lords (but don't show them), it would have been funny if Azai showed up saying Ichi was promised to him and so that's why he starts fighting Nobunaga. XD Hm, yeah, she probably was, especially after all that was happening. With how duty bound she is, it's kinda hard to see her having an affair with Mitsu.

I went back to ep 5 and Da Vinci is all like "Caesar's not invited to the banquet", but when he sees Kenshin for the first time, he's all like "he should be invited too". And Da Vinci's words are always important it seems. I guess that was literally saying that Caesar wouldn't make it to the climax.

Jun 16, 2014 2:51 AM

#306

Offline

May 2014

386

Im already tired of saying this but Ichihime is a composite character of Oichi and Nouhime i.e she is more or less an original character, who was nobungas historical wife, so to try to link her with history is pointless.. and there was never a single mention of azai in the show, and there was no mention of ichi being promised to anyone

She is a princess, she was probably trained in how to be a proper lady since a young age, and that includes how to be a proper bride

Imo Ichi always knew that one day she MIGHT have to be married off for political purposes and duty, but she was definitely not promised to anyone, she was single, she could be with anyone if she wanted to--- as she said in ep 12-

'I will decide myself the matter of my own marriage'

So im sure nobody has told her she would be marrying a certain lord someday, hence she was free and able to accept caesars proposal when it came, and nobody complained about it (except mitsu)

Although azai lands are shown on the map, if there is an 'azai' in the show, its caesar, its like how kenshin calls himself 'the one eyed dragon' or something, which is a clear reference to the one-eyed masamune date (just google one-eyed dragon), so kenshin actually filled the roles of both uesugi kenshin and masamune date, or whatever, same goes for caesar

jfsJun 16, 2014 3:11 AM

Jun 16, 2014 3:10 AM

#307

Offline

Jun 2014

207

I was about to point out the Azai lands thing before you modified it. That was what I was thinking about Kenshin and the whole one eyed dragon thing... Well we are basically just speculating about these things now.

Jun 16, 2014 3:14 AM

#308

Offline

May 2014

386

The one eyed dragon is 100% a masamune date reference

And the lands are all there, as they tried to make it close to historical japan geography, but with virtually no characters mentioned or even discussed, they might as well not exist

There is no 'Oichi' in the show, there is only ichihime, who is an original character, the nouhime part of ichihime is very likely since nouhime was said to be a childhood friend of mitsuhide, and a theory for mitsus betrayal of nobunaga was that nouhime instigated him to it ( considering he is using ichihimes words to justify his actions last ep, this is even more likely)

jfsJun 16, 2014 4:40 AM

Jun 16, 2014 11:54 AM

#309

Offline

May 2014

257

Well, I was just starting to joke around right there. Everybody plays more roles than their own, except for maybe Nobu, Mitsu, & Saru.

I'm glad they did that and made her Ichihime instead of Oichi. Yeah, with all of that, I would hay Ichi is Nouhime too. There's just too much for it.

Jun 17, 2014 8:45 AM

#310

Maor

Offline

Jul 2012

7311

KILL EM ALL KAWAMORI/HIDEKAZU

הלב שלי כבר מת

Jun 17, 2014 3:24 PM

#311

Offline

Jun 2014

207

It looks like Kawamori wasn't playing when he said this is a multi-dimensional project.
http://www.nobunaga-senrega.jp/
Is it a simple fighting game J?

Jun 17, 2014 5:03 PM

#312

Offline

May 2014

257

LOL, I should have been expecting this. XD

Hm, looks like there's some charas in it that didn't get in the anime. I wonder what historical figures they are.

It looks like it could be a card game. At least the bottom part anyways. They are popular in Japan nowadays.

Jun 18, 2014 11:07 AM

#313

Offline

Jun 2014

207

Well from what google translate tells me its going to feature the va's with a story which I'm guessing depends on which character you use... BTW Ichi's mech is just too cute.

Jun 18, 2014 11:59 AM

#314

Offline

May 2014

257

Hm, yeah, that'll probably be how it is. Which one is Ichi's mech? I do find it funny how they have her as the only Eastern chara in one pic and with a Western background to boot. Guess she belongs to the West now because of her marriage. XD

Jun 18, 2014 12:19 PM

#315

Offline

Jun 2014

207

Well last night I was just clicking everything on the website LOL... until it took me to a page with the rewards. Ichi's mech is pink with a flower accessory like her LOL. There was also some unfamiliar faces too.

Jun 18, 2014 5:09 PM

#316

Offline

May 2014

257

LOL XD Oh! That does sound cute and so like her. LOL Yeah, I noticed some of them. They looked interesting. Wish they were in the anime (especially instead of a fem Hannibal).

BTW, I'm thinking the chances are high we're going to get a rebirth ending in NtF. The world being destroyed then being reborn/renewed. That's in mythology a lot. In the ending themes they even have a picture of Norse mythology and we all know it's famous for Ragnarok, which afterwards the world is restored and even someone who killed came back.

Jun 18, 2014 6:05 PM

#317

Offline

Jun 2014

207

Yeah, it really is looking that way or an ending that leaves us saying huh?

I personally have no problem with a rebirth ending as long as Ichi and Caesar are together in this new world.

Jun 18, 2014 6:58 PM

#318

Offline

May 2014

257

Indeed. Really, at this point a rebirth ending is the only thing that makes sense. Especially since it looks like Jeanne could die. I mean, she could survive, but still the world would just be destroyed with almost everyone dead. What would they be saving?

I feel the same. And if they do a rebirth world, the chances are high that Caesar and Ichi would be brought back together. I can draw so many parallels between their death and Balder's and his wife Nanna's (and they come back after Ragnarok (also in Ragnarok, dead people fight; in this we have the Perfectas). In some versions it was their death that set up Ragnarok; Caesar & Ichi's set up the climax. Balder was someone who persumably couldn't be killed; Caesar had all that plot armor. Balder was killed by an arrow, Nel threw a spear. The one who killed Balder was under the order of someone else; right before the twins appear you see Cesare saying "do it". Nanna died on top of Balder and Ichi fell on top of Caesar (well Nanna threw herself in the fire, but that would be too much to do in this). Balder & Nanna sent gifts from the underworld and now we see Caesar & Ichi help Jeanne. Also Balder was a son of Odin; in Celtic legend Caesar was the son of Odin and started an English monarchy (and in the looks department Caesar looks similar to Odin in this anime (that mask covering one eye, his silver hair)).

Because of Caesar's similarity to Odin, I thought a while back he might die and be brought back. And we have the Holy Grail which in legends could heal and bring back people I believe. Also Caesar had the Excalibur (he's the one who pulled it out of the stone like he is the real ruler, King Arthur, or something), and Arthur was said to be the once and future king as he would come back. We have yet to see Excalibur again.

Jun 18, 2014 7:51 PM

#319

Offline

May 2014

386

You are probably overanalyzing the connections to mythology there......

I personally think the world will be destroyed (arthurs world that is) and reborn into a world with life restored (before arthur sucked it up) but dead people will stay dead most likely

For one thing, Ichi and Caesars death has a finality about it with that final shot of their hands together that is probably permanent, another thing is himiko already said last ep: i will be married to him in the afterlife, but in this life, you will, Jeanne wont die from her wound, trust me, probably some asspull will heal her

I cant imagine Himiko being alive, and nobu also has to end up with jeanne

That said, i would pay anything to see an ending where the world is peaceful and caesar and Ichi opened a sweets/chocolate shop and run it together, though they mightve already done it in the afterlife

jfsJun 18, 2014 7:57 PM

Jun 18, 2014 8:00 PM

#320

Offline

Jun 2014

207

Oh wow LOL... you really did your research. That definitely is some interesting parallels. Whatever the ending is though it definitely feels rushed. One thing I think needs to happen is the two stars merging into one. I mean the star of the west is already ruined and without a dragon. The star of the east is not looking too good either. All this talk about the grail and a new world just gives evidence to a WTF ending in my opinion.

Jun 18, 2014 8:06 PM

#321

Offline

May 2014

257

Yeah, I may be. But in Ragnarok not everyone came back.

Haha, that would be cute.

I'm just a fan of Norse mythology and couldn't help, but think of Balder and Nanna when Caesar and Ichi died. XD I definitely agree, whatever it will do it will be rushed. Yeah, they probably will merge into one with all that talk of uniting heaven and earth. Haha, yeah, we'll probably get that kind of ending no matter what.

Jun 20, 2014 1:49 AM

#322

Offline

Jun 2014

207

BTW here is a colored image of the case for the 6 character songs. I gotta say Ichi looks too cute.
http://www.lantis.jp/title-news.php?id=4c55f66c5d808e45c4ab241702327a07&nid=1402930800

Jun 20, 2014 2:41 AM

#323

Offline

May 2014

386

I just noticed that everyone in the character songs can be paired up

Nobunaga-Jeanne

Hideyoshi-Himiko

Caesar-Ichihime

lol

BTW the even the anime website loves trolling Mitsu (no surprise considering all the mitsu trolling artwork done by the anime illustrator), they are using Mitsus cartoon as a placeholder for unreleased images http://www.nobunaga.tv/special/assets/wp/adr_1920.jpg

There is even a comment saying something like 'We also have a standby screen using the extremely popular 'mitsuhide'. Please use it!!!!'

Note that the tone of this is sarcastic and more like making fun of mitsu

they reused this probably http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1399/19/1399197849373.jpg

jfsJun 20, 2014 2:45 AM

Jun 20, 2014 2:45 AM

#324

Offline

Jun 2014

207

Yeah, I saw that a little while ago... BTW what is the Mitsu image saying?

Jun 20, 2014 2:52 AM

#325

Offline

May 2014

386

Not sure but nothing important, probably a japanese slang

Jun 20, 2014 11:38 AM

#326

Offline

May 2014

257

Oh, Ichi is very cute! And LOL poor Caesar. XD

Hm, yeah, they can.

Oh, more Mitsu trolling! Awesome! XD (Haha, he does have fun with that.) LOL, Mitsu is well, suffering. XD

LOLOLOLOLOL, just how much do they enjoy trolling him! XD

Ah, never get tired of that image. XD

Jun 21, 2014 8:33 AM

#327

Offline

May 2014

386

So cesars chara song cover is out, he looks pretty evil in that, and whats with the background of the death god in his chara song, i wonder if its a reference to ep 11 (Death) where he killed tons of people

Caesar Song titles are

1) WORLD IS MINE
2) DIGNIFIED ELEGANCE

Poor Himiko! Her songs titles are

1) EARNEST LOVE
2) DEDICATE

i wonder if the caesars first song will refer to Ichi, neither sounds too romantic but i cant imagine there wont be a song dedicated to his love for her, also caesars chara song cover is the only one with a proper background

I guess the first part of the first song could be something about how he always wanted to have the world for himself but the second part would be about all he wanted after he met ichi was her heart.. or something

I know Ichis chara song cover with her holding the scales is a reference to the justice tarot card in ep 21 where she died (Based on her fierce expression, it can also be meant to reflect the part in ep 14 when she asked caesar to choose (weigh) between her or arthur)

OST 2 cover is also out, with Ichihime, mitsu and caesar in it, Ichi is in the middle, so im guessing its meant to reflect the love triangle http://www.lantis.jp/release-item2.php?id=4d144b47f8aac528cb9cebc1d154dea1

Similarly, OST 1 also features Nobunaga in the middle and jeanne and himiko on each side, i guess both OST covers are for the love triangle characters lol http://www.lantis.jp/release-item2.php?id=0114d2e49f08773756f5139179a9cc13

Quo vadis is also in the OST 2 cover, while the fool is in the OST 1 cover

jfsJun 21, 2014 8:57 AM

Jun 21, 2014 10:25 AM

#328

Offline

May 2014

257

Haha, he does. XD Hm, maybe, but wasn't Nobu and Jeanne talking about themselves being "death"? If it wasn't for Jeanne blocking Caesar's attack all of those people wouldn't have died.

LOL, Caesar has a song titled "World is Mine" instead of Nobu, who's always talking about uniting heaven and earth. XD

Poor Himiko indeed!

Dignified Elegance could be about Ichi as that could be her. I can't imagine there won't be a song of his love for her either. Yeah, his is the only one. What's up with that?

Hm, that could be it. And would fit in what Caesar said when he died.

You know if you put Caesar's and Ichi's together it would be like they were judging the dead or something. XD

Haha, yeah, both are for love triangle charas (Saru doesn't even get on it XD). And there's something similar in the pics there. The "winners" of the LTs (both on left) have their head up, while the "losers" both have their heads down and look sad (though with Mitsu that looks like his standard suffering XD).

Jun 21, 2014 10:48 AM

#329

Offline

May 2014

386

It came across my mind that in the ending art, saru was holding a basket of apples, and himikos chara song has her eating one.. could one of himikos song has a reference to saru in it? but his feelings for her seem platonic and she was fully devoted to nobunaga in the end...

Well yeah i guess dignified elegance can be used for Ichi, but i guess it can also be used for caesar, personally i wont be surprised if both songs are about her or has a reference to her in it, it could be that half of the first song is about her and the 2nd is fully about her

Well you are right about the parallelism between the 2 OST covers, doubt its a coincidence

jfsJun 21, 2014 11:00 AM

Jun 21, 2014 11:00 AM

#330

Offline

May 2014

257

Huh, yeah, they both have that apple theme to them. Very well could, I don't see why they would give her an apple if it didn't as she has never been seen with an apple before. Indeed... But it could still be like her acknowledging his caring about her and not be in a romantic sense, I guess.

Yeah, it could easily be Caesar... Haha, yeah, she'll probably get in both. That could very well be it. After all once they got married, Caesar was pretty much centered around her throughout the rest of the anime.

Jun 21, 2014 11:01 AM

#331

Offline

May 2014

386

Template For OST seems to be:

Middle character= center of love triangle, aka the Oda siblings

Top left: love interest from west star (winner)

Right: East star (losers)

Its funny that both Oda siblings chose to love people from the west star instead of love interests from their own stars, i guess Ichi takes after her beloved brother

jfsJun 21, 2014 11:11 AM

Jun 21, 2014 12:11 PM

#332

Offline

Jun 2014

207

Damn, he really does look evil in that cover. I think the first song is about him before he met Ichi and the second one is about after. Whats up with that skull? I was so sure is cover would be him holding a rose LOL... The first thing that came to my mind was also the parallelisms on both covers.

Jun 21, 2014 12:15 PM

#333

Offline

May 2014

257

LOL, indeed. XD The Oda siblings have more interests in foreigners. XD Well, Ichi ended up being "the fool" in ep 12 by choosing to marry Caesar, so I guess they are alike in some ways. And that talk with Mitsu on uniting heaven and earth. XD

Yeah, I was expecting the rose too...

Jun 21, 2014 12:38 PM

#334

Offline

May 2014

386

Its not a skull, its a death god, most likely a reference to the death tarot card in ep 11 where caesar brings death to the Oda, like the scales in Ichis chara song probably a reference to the justice figure in the justice tarot in ep 21, i guess in a way its fitting, since ep 11 when caesar defeated nobunaga was where he and Ichi was destined to meet, and ep 21 was where their story ended

I was hoping he would be without the mask in the cover...

I guess 'World is Mine' could be half about his past self and the end about after he met Ichi..

Sadly, i actually think Caesar couldve had a shot at ruling the world, in ep 11 he has already conquered the Oda, he couldve just taken jeanne and nobu hostage, forced Ichi to marry him, conquer the East star using Nobus regalias, and then conquer the west (With Kenshin as an ally) But i guess in the end he wanted Ichis heart more than anything else

Jun 21, 2014 1:11 PM

#335

Offline

May 2014

257

Yeah, death did bring Caesar and Ichi together in more ways than one.

I was too, but the mask is all point and center. XD

Hm, yeah, true, Caesar was in a way better position at ruling the world than Nobu and he could have done just that. And if this wasn't so centered on Nobu that might have happened, well, except there's that main character rule in shows. But realistically I can see Caesar conquering the world more than Nobu. Indeed he did and he didn't really care for anything else.

Jun 21, 2014 10:11 PM

#336

Offline

May 2014

386

I just noticed in the eng wiki caesar has twice (43%) more votes in the character popularity poll than the 2nd place (Nobunaga, 23%) and 3rd place (Jeanne, 20%)

Truly the best

(lol mitsu has 4 %)

Jun 21, 2014 10:55 PM

#337

Offline

May 2014

257

I have now gone and looked to see for myself. Wow! Caesar easily has 1st place. It takes Nobu and Jeanne combined to match his percentage. Now, I really wonder what a Jap chara poll is and how Caesar places.

(LOL XD Well, he is in 4th place... but that could easily be changed XD (and I have a feeling he got those votes at the beginning)).

BTW, is it just me or has the dragons helped Caesar more than Nobu so far. They helped Caesar thrash Nobu, but what have they done for Nobu? Besides that lil dragon appearing on Alexander's arm and scaring Mitsu. XD I haven't really seen that big of a power-up yet. Though, that'll probably change next ep.

Jun 21, 2014 11:06 PM

#338

Offline

May 2014

386

He should be top too, caesar is easily the 'coolest' character in the show, in terms of looks, style, and even his mecha design and generic beam cannon power, theyre all you generic 'cool' type so most people will probably go for him

When nobu raged after his father died the dragons also gave him powerup similar to caesar and he had to run from that actually, after ep 19 though its clear Nobu has the dragons on his side, and he used the dragons power against caesar in ep 21

If Ichi didnt interfere and stop caesars excalibur, idk if nobu would still have won though

Jun 21, 2014 11:26 PM

#339

Offline

May 2014

257

Caesar definitely is the coolest for sure. LOL, they are (Quo Vadis is the only mecha I ever cared for). Really Caesar seems more MC type, especially with that dragon power-up he had to win. MCs will lose, but never like Nobu did. XD

Oh, yeah! That's why he left. Forgot about that. XD Yeah, it is clear the dragons are, but I haven't seen that great of a power-up for Nobu. Well, Nobu didn't get totally destroyed in ep 23, but he wasn't winning. If it wasn't for Himiko...

I doubt Nobu would have won. Really, Ichi is why Caesar hasn't done a lot of things and Nobu is still alive. Jeanne's supposed to be the most influential in the show with her visions? Nah, it's Ichi with her influence over Caesar.

Jun 21, 2014 11:56 PM

#340

Offline

May 2014

386

Yeah well its rare for the bad guys to get the deus ex machina powerup to own the good guys, i wonder if they will explain why the dragons helped caesar, maybe because they know caesar would end up helping nobu, or maybe because caesar has a strong willpower or something like Nobu did....

Nobu probably got owned because his mecha was kinda skinny since he seemed to use many of the parts as the snowmobile thing

Jeanne is useless, her nenodroid is out too, but i wouldnt buy it..

Well we needed more screentime with caesar and Ichis relationship.. i wonder why they had to make hannibal and charlemange arrive the day after their first night, they couldve made a 1 week or so timeskip and show us how they got closer, shouldnt take too much screentime, there are plenty of other scenes that are unecessary and boring and can be cut from the show to make time for that....

Jun 22, 2014 12:14 AM

#341

Offline

May 2014

257

I would love for them to explain, but I doubt they will. Well, Da Vinci said that they responded to Caesar's wish, but idk, if that was so then why haven't they showed up for other people?

Ah, yeah, that's probably it. XD

She is. Yeah, I saw that and me neither...

We really did. That's what I wanted to know too. They sure could've! Indeed, there was a lot of scenes they could have cut. They have a ton of useless scenes in the first part of the anime, so they definitely could've shown Caesar/Ichi more.

Jun 22, 2014 12:20 AM

#342

EratiK

Offline

Apr 2012

4896

NiteBloomingRose said:
Indeed, there was a lot of scenes they could have cut. They have a ton of useless scenes in the first part of the anime, so they definitely could've shown Caesar/Ichi more.

Every scene in the anime has a purpose. More Caesar/Ichi wouldn't have achieved anything, so I'm glad they didn't show more of it. Not sure why you guys obsess over this couple, they're interesting, but it's not like they're remarkable either. Every character in the show is interesting, they're no different.

EratiKJun 22, 2014 12:23 AM

Jun 22, 2014 3:15 AM

#343

Offline

May 2014

386

Personal preferences, they are our favorite characters so narurally we want to see more of them, and personally they should have gotten a couple more scenes together as they lacked interaction even compared to saru/himiko

Idk I rather see more of caesar and ichi rather than watch jeannes character go in circles from believing and doubting nobu over and over again, but like I said, its just our personal opinions

Jun 22, 2014 3:28 AM

#344

EratiK

Offline

Apr 2012

4896

I guess that makes sense. Personally I enjoy the show more than any particular character, and I really feel the show walks a thin line: there's a fragile balance of screen time for every character, in the show's own sporadic way, and any character added or reduced would threaten this delicate equilibrium. I can't imagine a Caesar/Ichihime spin-off being any good either.

Jun 22, 2014 5:07 AM

#345

Offline

May 2014

386

As a whole, this show gives enough screentime for each character, but as a couple, those 2 lacked screentime and interactions TOGETHER, i mean they only had a proper development in a couple of scenes in ep 14, and then in ep 18 she shows she has feelings for him and by the time they finally meet again in ep 21, she was clearly in love with him, so imo they shouldve given at least another scene to develop their relationship before she actually fell for him, though i get that between 14-21 where caesar was stuck in the west, the plot makes it kinda hard to do that...

I doubt this show will get any spin off tbh, the plot is just too weak for that, the best we can hope for is doujins and fanfics

IMO this show wasted too much time in the first 12 episodes, the 2nd half feels abit rushed

Jun 22, 2014 9:38 AM

#346

Offline

May 2014

257

Caesar & Ichi were literally why I was watching this. In fact during the 1st half, Caesar (yup, when he was an antagonist) was the only thing that kept me going. One time, early on, I fell behind 5 eps because it was kinda dull.

I agree with you jfs, they wasted too much time in the 1st half and when it gets better in the 2nd half, they rushed it.

NiteBloomingRoseJun 22, 2014 9:42 AM

Jun 22, 2014 11:15 AM

#347

Offline

May 2014

386

NiteBloomingRose said:
Caesar & Ichi were literally why I was watching this. In fact during the 1st half, Caesar (yup, when he was an antagonist) was the only thing that kept me going. One time, early on, I fell behind 5 eps because it was kinda dull.

I agree with you jfs, they wasted too much time in the 1st half and when it gets better in the 2nd half, they rushed it.

Cant get enough of Mitsus suffering, even without caesar and Ichi, i would still watch it just to see it(then again, he wouldnt suffer enough without caesar so idk)

Jun 22, 2014 11:21 AM

#348

Offline

May 2014

257

Haha, yeah, I would watch it just to see Mitsu suffering too. XD But that didn't really start in earnest til ep 12... Exactly, you need Caesar for Mitsu to really suffer. Caesar can burn him really good, but just being with Ichi is enough. XD

Jun 23, 2014 1:44 AM

#349