sasukefan38 said: newsWatch9 said: No, you guys just don't want to lose your instant, free anime and actually work for entertainment. Last time I checked, entertainment is no basic human right, you are NOT entitled for the shows. You do not NEED TO WATCH every single show, I don't do it. Why is it so hard for people to understand and accept this relatively easy concept? Because they are poor and will say anything to justify what they do when they know full well that its wrong. Prove that piracy is "wrong" without resorting to a moral argument. |
Drunk_Samurai said: If the law is your basis and you don't question the law, then piracy wrong.sasukefan38 said: newsWatch9 said: No, you guys just don't want to lose your instant, free anime and actually work for entertainment. Last time I checked, entertainment is no basic human right, you are NOT entitled for the shows. You do not NEED TO WATCH every single show, I don't do it. Why is it so hard for people to understand and accept this relatively easy concept? Because they are poor and will say anything to justify what they do when they know full well that its wrong. Prove that piracy is "wrong" without resorting to a moral argument. |
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Prove that piracy is "wrong" without resorting to a moral argument. I think someone needs to look up the definition of moral. Morals are what is right and what is wrong (this is, by definition, a moral discussion). Piracy is stealing. I find it hard to believe you do not hold the moral value that stealing is wrong. |
| There's no need for all this tension. |
gamer2710 said: Drunk_Samurai said: If the law is your basis and you don't question the law, then piracy wrong.sasukefan38 said: newsWatch9 said: No, you guys just don't want to lose your instant, free anime and actually work for entertainment. Last time I checked, entertainment is no basic human right, you are NOT entitled for the shows. You do not NEED TO WATCH every single show, I don't do it. Why is it so hard for people to understand and accept this relatively easy concept? Because they are poor and will say anything to justify what they do when they know full well that its wrong. Prove that piracy is "wrong" without resorting to a moral argument. Laws can be wrong too. Though do you really think pirates care about the law? Every single time somebody gets sued for piracy or a site gets shut down the same comments pop up like "Who cares? "Another one will just take its place". "I'm still going to pirate since it is pretty rare to get sued for it". Majikkusesu said: Drunk_Samurai said: Prove that piracy is "wrong" without resorting to a moral argument. I think someone needs to look up the definition of moral. Morals are what is right and what is wrong (this is, by definition, a moral discussion). Piracy is stealing. I find it hard to believe you do not hold the moral value that stealing is wrong. Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. |
| Piracy is copying the original and then taking the copy, much like BORROWING that Dvd from your friend. I've "borrowed" many a dvd from my friends only to later buy it my self because I loved it so much and wanted it in my collection. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. |
| There's no need for all this tension. |
Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? |
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? The image is wrong. |
Mclovinballs said: gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? The image is wrong. It isn't. Legally copyright infringement isn't theft either. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Mclovinballs said: gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? The image is wrong. It isn't. Legally copyright infringement isn't theft either. sarcasm |
Mclovinballs said: Drunk_Samurai said: Mclovinballs said: gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? sarcasm The image is wrong. It isn't. Legally copyright infringement isn't theft either. Figured. I should have responded to the other post anyway. |
gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? This depends on your view. I don't think copyright holders view lost sales due to piracy as just leaving the money there. |
| There's no need for all this tension. |
| I'm from a blocked region but besides that, first I want to say that producing anime requires a lot of people, a lot of time and a lot of money, so yeah, it's not like it should be for free, with that said, I really think that for you to buy a DVD you need to know if you'll find the content appealing, let's say a movie, you watch X-Men or whatever and it comes out Blue-Ray and say "hey i'll buy that and see it at home" but surely you already saw it on theaters or you know it's going to be enjoyed. Now for TV series you first watch them in your TV -duh- in the weekly airing or something, you don't pay a cent extra from your cable or whatever, if after you've seen it you say "hey great series, gonna buy" I think its great! But now tell me, do you think were I live I can buy Mobile Suit Gundman '79? Better yet, can I buy it online from Japan or USA and see it with spanish subs? I really doubt so. I do speak english but I find more difficult to understand english subs rather than spanish. So should I watch the crappy dub in the TV but only half the season? I hope we can have access to legal spanish sub anime soon. |
Majikkusesu said: gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? This depends on your view. I don't think copyright holders view lost sales due to piracy as just leaving the money there. You know that when a company refers to something as a lost sale it is almost always complete bullshit? Companies think that EVERY single illegal download is a lost sale when the most people wouldn't have even bought the product in the first place. There is only a lost sale when a person pirates something they would have bought. |
Majikkusesu said: gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? This depends on your view. I don't think copyright holders view lost sales due to piracy as just leaving the money there. http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103759/not-a-big-deal |
Majikkusesu said: Lost sales are meaningless. Would you ever consider the idea that people wouldn't want to buy or support shitty products? Of course, how would a person know it was shitty if they themselves didn't view it yet? And no, I wouldn't trust an outside review or recommendation just like that.gamer2710 said: Majikkusesu said: http://copiare.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/piracy-vs-theft.jpgDrunk_Samurai said: Piracy is copyright infringement. Stealing is actual theft. Copyright infringement IS theft. Refer to the image and tell me that again. Or what, are you gonna tell me that the image is wrong? This depends on your view. I don't think copyright holders view lost sales due to piracy as just leaving the money there. But whatever. As long as the number one priority of big content creators is money and not content, they'll still bitch and moan about piracy and lost sales. |
gamer2710Sep 23, 2013 8:42 PM
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
| I'm just going to quote myself from a few pages ago and direct it to you majik... or whatever the name was Mclovinballs said: I just want to ask any anti-piracy person this, do you have that ideal for everything, including porn? |
Mclovinballs said: I'm just going to quote myself from a few pages ago and direct it to you majik... or whatever the name was Mclovinballs said: I just want to ask any anti-piracy person this, do you have that ideal for everything, including porn? Actually a vast majority of free porn is not the entire film or "series". They're more like scenes or episodes to get you to buy a subscription to a site. It's more in line with "Hey, here's this free episode or a preview". They would not like you getting all their content for free. They do sue! |
| There's no need for all this tension. |
| He makes a pretty good point bro. |
1. You're not looking hard enough if you can't find full length porn for free 2. That doesn't answer the question, do you look at porn on "illegal" streaming sites or not? I'll also add this, have you ever once listened to music off youtube? |
MclovinballsSep 23, 2013 8:50 PM
| Piracy arent lost sales. Trust me if piracy/streaming didnt exist I would have never known about anime. Yes I have seen some mainstream stuff on TV before, but for me that was just simply cartoons, until I discovered anime on the internet trough a coincidence. But lets say streams and downloading becomes impossible now, after I already know about anime, I would still not buy anime. I would simply stop watching it, cause I simply dont see why I would spent so much money, on comparably low amount of enjyoment. If anime gets as easily accessible and cheap as games have become over the years, then I will start buying anime, but until then I wont. Just to note my buying habits in gaming went from about 1 game a year to 25 a year just because of Steam. Steam is easy and fast accesible, and it is really cheap. Give me something like that and maybe than the Price/(viewing time * enjoyment) will be higher and I would buy some shows. |
baki502 said: Piracy arent lost sales. Trust me if piracy/streaming didnt exist I would have never known about anime. Yes I have seen some mainstream stuff on TV before, but for me that was just simply cartoons, until I discovered anime on the internet trough a coincidence. But lets say streams and downloading becomes impossible now, after I already know about anime, I would still not buy anime. I would simply stop watching it, cause I simply dont see why I would spent so much money, on comparably low amount of enjyoment. If anime gets as easily accessible and cheap as games have become over the years, then I will start buying anime, but until then I wont. Just to note my buying habits in gaming went from about 1 game a year to 25 a year just because of Steam. Steam is easy and fast accesible, and it is really cheap. Give me something like that and maybe than the Price/(viewing time * enjoyment) will be higher and I would buy some shows. Some piracy is a lost sale. But its only a lost sale if the person pirated instead of buying something they intended on buying. |
| I did read through the first 17-18 pages last night. Forgive me for not sifting through everything for exact quotes and usernames: "Screw morality, I do what I want!" Framing piracy vs. buying as a cost-benefit analysis to oneself is not real morality, it's Protagonist-Centered Morality. Like how in video games it's acceptable to walk into random people's houses and take treasure chests. But none of us are protagonists; we merely live in a world where our individual freedoms and rights end where others' freedoms and rights begin. To the person(s) who said, "I have to work hard for my money, I'm not spending it on anime": why is your work deserving of financial compensation, while the work of animators, voice actors, directors, etc. is not worthy of compensation? "Piracy isn't stealing because it doesn't permanently remove a copy from inventory." Technically no, but it is still infringing. If somebody or some company creates a piece of copyrighted creative content, they have the rights under international law to decide how it gets distributed. If you enjoy that content outside the system without compensation to the creators, you are illegitimately obtaining the "experience" of watching that content. "If you're not importing, you're not supporting the Japanese anime industry." Usually a cheap justification for not buying anything. And only true if you assume that overseas licensing companies are crafty bootleggers who somehow manage to fool the Japanese companies into allowing them to sell anime without paying for the rights. It's true that importing the Japanese releases will offer more support, but buying overseas releases means you are providing revenue to the global anime industry and participating in a process that the content creators have allowed to happen. None of that is true if you merely watch downloaded rips or illegal streams. "Anime is too expensive, I can't afford $400 for a boxed set." I recently placed two orders at rightstuf.com. One for 61 total episodes across 3 series for $53. Another for 115 episodes across 7 series, and one half-series for $172. That's $0.87 / $1.50 per episode. If you know what you're doing and hit the right sales (rightstuf's running a 40% off Funimation sale, and their Bargain Bin always has good deals), anime can be pretty cheap in North America. And contrary to inflation and rising costs of materials in the general economy, anime has gotten much cheaper. As I analyzed in the "anyone remember VCR tapes" thread, the inflation-adjusted cost of typical anime releases has declined by 85% over the last 16 years. As for the super-expensive sets, well... one could always practice "strategic piracy" -- pirate the stuff that's overly expensive (compared to the norms of Sentai/Funi/et al) and the out-of-print/obscure stuff, buy what you like and can afford. I'm not saying "buy everything right away"; there's no reason you can't wait a couple years for a price drop or a good sale if you've already seen the show during the initial airing. If everybody bought say 3-4 of their top 10 series, the industry would be in immensely better shape. "Why should I have to pay for dubs I don't want/need?" Why not just ignore the dubs and treat the release as an 80%-discounted copy of the Japanese version? Plus, it was the popularity brought by dubs that allowed anime to reach greater audiences and bring prices down in the first place. Just ask the people who paid $40 in ~1994 (~2013!$63.12) for VHS tapes with one subtitled episode of Tenchi Muyo or Bubblegum Crisis 2033. "Piracy isn't lost sales, it's sales that may or may not have happened" I won't go back and forth in the impossible task of proving counterfactuals, but I can say this: the slowing of sales growth, or beginning of sales declines in R1 coincides almost exactly with the rise of BitTorrent in 2003. And for those who want a source, see here: "The North American industry is irrelevant to Japan anyway, why bother?" If you think so, don't complain about more and more shows being made to cater to Japanese otaku tastes. But if you look at the amount and types of anime being made from 2000-2006 while the R1 industry was booming, you'll see that (A) The amount of shows increased from year to year, (B) there was a greater diversity of genres and more shows in Western-viewer-preferred categories like sci-fi, horror, action, etc., and (C) some critically-acclaimed series like Koi Kaze, Kaleido Star, and Kino's Journey were co-produced by US anime companies. "Streaming sucks, and they don't have DVD/BD fixed/uncensored versions!" I half agree. Imo there's no excuse for illegal streaming if legal streams are available in your region. Others in the thread have already gone over the technical advantages of downloaded files. If you're going to pirate, why not pirate the better/best quality? And if you're going to put up with streaming and its inconveniences, why not help the industry out a little? Plus, contributing to the advertising revenue of illegal streaming sites is akin to buying bootlegged discs -- downloading doesn't provide revenue to the industry, but it doesn't let anyone else profit from the industry's work either. But of course legal streaming sites (usually) aren't going to have the home video versions! That's the same business model they use for the Japanese TV broadcasts -- entice the viewers with the steam/beam-filled video, and if people want the good stuff (whether that be nudity, fixed animation, or additional scenes), they're supposed to buy the discs. Maintaining a difference between the low-cost/free versions and the premium versions is how businesses operate in a niche market like anime. **************** However, speaking of the TV broadcasts, I'll close with a counter to my own and others' anti-piracy arguments. Consider that: 1) Most of the anime we watch and discuss around here are latenight TV anime aimed at otaku. 2) The TV ratings of these latenight anime are irrelevant, as the advertising spots are purchased by the anime studios and production committee. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_night_anime) Thus, the broadcasts are essentially infomercials for the disc releases and other associated merchandise. 3) As the legitimate watching of latenight TV broadcasts does not directly benefit the studios, watching pirated versions of those broadcasts does not directly harm the studios. Of course, the expectation is that a percentage of people who view the broadcasts will purchase the discs and merchandise, so I still encourage people to do so via legitimate imports or the local distributor of your choice. Of course, this "watching downloaded versions does no direct harm" concept does not apply to movies, OVAs, or disc-rips versions of TV series, as those all represent content that is meant to be purchased up front. Disclaimer: I participate in the creation of DVD re-releases of older anime, so I don't morally condemn those who download those rips. And I do believe that the additional exposure from piracy can be beneficial to the industry in some cases, but we as fans have to hold up our end of the bargain and make that increased exposure translate to higher sales. "Popularity" alone doesn't pay the bills. |
ZalisSep 24, 2013 12:49 AM
| ^^^ Mother of essay |
| In the end it's all about the money and what anime costs. The moral argument is always weak because probably 90% (random number) of people that watch anime would rather not pay a fortune. Considering I pay around 75-90 euros for a 24 episode anime (a new copy not a second-hand or 20% off copy) where I live I would've already payed about 20000 euros for my watched anime. Considering that and the amount of money I have available for my hobbies I would've finished my list as it is when I was 10 years older. I'm exaggerating a little bit here but I think I've made my point clear. |
| The piracy can be a problem, but if the companies don't give a shit about looking for answers for the problems that allow the decision of pirating be more appealing, why should I give a shit as well? Surely, we're supporting the franchise, but they aren't supporting us about their own products. Anime isn't cheap, and currency can make it a bitch to deal if you want it "fairly". In Brazil, thanks to taxes and shittons of other stuff, the price increases to 3x from the original. Nobody on their right mind would find it fair to pay 3 mangas to have 1, let alone that barely any new manga or anime goes there anyway. If the complaints is about illegality is easily accessible, then make the original source more accessible. If I can't have something on my country because they simply don't sell it, I should just cross my arms and wait for a miracle of getting dubbed/subbed and come here? Also, I believe they're not looking foward of ways to get around that (I can't really blame them too much on this though). The gaming industry is getting around that for example: The new GTA will not come for the PC version. A middle finger to torrenters, and chances are that there isn't a way to make a emulation or a solid game rip of the future new gen of gaming. Also, by what I know, japanese-exclusive entertainment products seems to double the price when they are sold outside of Japan. It applies to VNs, but I don't know if the same goes for Anime. |
  |
| Yeah I watch anime illegally. I'm not defensive about who i am though. It's scummy. Do I care? Nope. Am I stealing? In a way, sure. Still love myself. <3 |
nomanz said: Yeah I watch anime illegally. I'm not defensive about who i am though. It's scummy. Do I care? Nope. Am I stealing? In a way, sure. Still love myself. <3 I have yet to see a good argument to say piracy is "scummy" or "wrong". Also it isn't stealing at all. Both legal and dictionary definitions show otherwise. |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0wXeN6_FY Imagine if the real world was like this, though some people here'd probably be praising the FBI men for breaking into this filthy pirating criminal's home. |
gamer2710Sep 24, 2013 12:47 PM
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
| I find it perfectly reasonable to use free and legal alternatives to illegally watching anime. I have a Netflix and a Hulu Plus, so if something still isn't there, I'll go to illegal, but I defiinitely believe in his point. |
| y'all need to shut the fuck up. |
| Not gonna wait a week for CR to upload the damn episode for free members when it takes two seconds to find it on Google now. Also, CR needs to get rid of that shitty font. |
Jaguer91 said: He... I've never paid for watch anime and I don't think I do. If I have the option to watch it for free, why would I pay? Besides most anime don't deserve a cent. |
| my avatar is the bus driver from Rosario + Vampire |
Forgetfulness said: My cheap ass Asian parents always made it a point to me to "not buy books when you can just borrow them from the library" Well, my policy for anime is more or less the same. Can I watch anime for free? Sure I can. Can I download a figure off the internet? No so if I really like it then I'll buy it But you can't watch books that are currently airing on TV., |
Tomoki_Sakurai said: Have you ever been to a library?But you can't watch books that are currently airing on TV., |
Makomonogatari said: lupadim said: The best part is that you somehow actually exist.And the best part is that no one can prove it wrong |
gstaad said: Tomoki_Sakurai said: Have you ever been to a library?But you can't watch books that are currently airing on TV., Yep |
Keilis said: LMFAO true, I tried the crunchyroll app on my ps3 and it just lags, thats the only app I have a problem with, plus its a rip off on the ps3.Not gonna wait a week for CR to upload the damn episode for free members when it takes two seconds to find it on Google now. Also, CR needs to get rid of that shitty font. |
 |
supersonicstrut said: ITT: entitlement complex boo hoo i can't wait a week to watch my FREE anime. boo hoo the blu-ray costs an arm and a leg. boo hoo the merchandise costs even more! a lot of you people aren't any better than the guy in the video. not like i'm defending him or anything, but for fuck's sake stop being entitled little shits. as someone living in a third world country who works hard to buy all his anime, some of you guys really disgust me. sure, go ahead and pirate, i don't care, but stop giving bullshit reasons to defend what you're doing. Another person using the word entitlement wrong. |
Drunk_Samurai said: supersonicstrut said: ITT: entitlement complex boo hoo i can't wait a week to watch my FREE anime. boo hoo the blu-ray costs an arm and a leg. boo hoo the merchandise costs even more! a lot of you people aren't any better than the guy in the video. not like i'm defending him or anything, but for fuck's sake stop being entitled little shits. as someone living in a third world country who works hard to buy all his anime, some of you guys really disgust me. sure, go ahead and pirate, i don't care, but stop giving bullshit reasons to defend what you're doing. Another person using the word entitlement wrong. Here ya go. en·ti·tle·ment noun \-ˈtī-təl-mənt\ : the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something : the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges) : a type of financial help provided by the government for members of a particular group |
Forgetfulness said: Well, some legal streams work more or less the same way assuming you have access to them. The only difference is that a library has an actual limit to the number of things it can lend out because they use physical copies.supersonicstrut said: Forgetfulness said: My cheap ass Asian parents always made it a point to me to "not buy books when you can just borrow them from the library" Well, my policy for anime is more or less the same. Can I watch anime for free? Sure I can. Can I download a figure off the internet? No so if I really like it then I'll buy it you can't compare pirating anime to borrowing books in a library, because more often than not the library pays royalties to the publisher before putting their book up for rent. I was comparing it in terms of how convenient it is to me and money, not whether or not the creators are paid for it :/ |
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
Tomoki_Sakurai said: Drunk_Samurai said: supersonicstrut said: ITT: entitlement complex boo hoo i can't wait a week to watch my FREE anime. boo hoo the blu-ray costs an arm and a leg. boo hoo the merchandise costs even more! a lot of you people aren't any better than the guy in the video. not like i'm defending him or anything, but for fuck's sake stop being entitled little shits. as someone living in a third world country who works hard to buy all his anime, some of you guys really disgust me. sure, go ahead and pirate, i don't care, but stop giving bullshit reasons to defend what you're doing. Another person using the word entitlement wrong. Here ya go. en·ti·tle·ment noun -ˈtī-təl-mənt : the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something : the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges) : a type of financial help provided by the government for members of a particular group I know what it means. supersonicstrut doesn't. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Tomoki_Sakurai said: Drunk_Samurai said: supersonicstrut said: ITT: entitlement complex boo hoo i can't wait a week to watch my FREE anime. boo hoo the blu-ray costs an arm and a leg. boo hoo the merchandise costs even more! a lot of you people aren't any better than the guy in the video. not like i'm defending him or anything, but for fuck's sake stop being entitled little shits. as someone living in a third world country who works hard to buy all his anime, some of you guys really disgust me. sure, go ahead and pirate, i don't care, but stop giving bullshit reasons to defend what you're doing. Another person using the word entitlement wrong. Here ya go. en·ti·tle·ment noun -ˈtī-təl-mənt : the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something : the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges) : a type of financial help provided by the government for members of a particular group I know what it means. supersonicstrut doesn't. I was just making a quick reference for you :( |
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