KyoAni's New TV Anime 'Tamako Market' Due in January

9988 said:


See!!! one of the things wrong with you moe lovers @ jmal and symbv and company, the lot of you are blind to your tastes, nothing its better that your moe, nothing is more amazing than your moe, theres no better characters than your moe, there not best anime than your moe, theres no better songs than those in your moe, most memorable anime in history is only your moe, best animation is only in your moe.


So you dont raise any eyebrows to anyone saying be default it will the "best" of the season/year, but god-forbid someone says otherwise....nice logic, and you feel so very offended when people call you blind! and oblivious to anything other than moe.


Whatever.

Wont say anything about this series, more moeblod evidently, as if Kyoani can do anything else nowadays (or bother with). Despite my criticism to moe I enjoyed some of it in the past, so this can be enjoyable yet I dunno If I can stomach it in 2012/2013, yet I will definitely watch so I can further criticize moe, well more like my grip with the saturation of anime with it and obsessive followers, not moe itself, even if some of you dont like it aint stopping me from voicing my opinion, just as you do as well, you are free to ignore of course.

neontaster said:
Haruhi Suzumiya is moe? Could have fooled me. I'm not big on moe and I really enjoy that franchise.

neontaster said:
Haruhi Suzumiya is moe? Could have fooled me. I'm not big on moe and I really enjoy that franchise.

symbv said:
The seiyuu for the lead heroine character Tamako has been announced. Aya Suzaki is very new to seiyuu occupation, apparently, and so far has only voiced very minor characters in a few anime like Bakuman, and she seems to be a late-starter (she is in late twenties), so this is a big break for her to come for a lead role in a KyoAni anime. And not just that, according to the release schedule of Pony Canyon, the OP and ED will all be sung by her !!

Anyway, here is her profile: http://www.imenterprise.jp/data.php?id=94

Vylash said:
yeesh this is still going? o.O

Progeusz said:
]KyoAni really likes experimenting. I remember that most of K-ON! cast was pretty much unknown when anime was announced. Same with Nichijou.

jmal said:

Launching, or expanding, seiyuu careers is something KyoAni shows have been good for.

jmal said:

Launching, or expanding, seiyuu careers is something KyoAni shows have been good for.

K-ON! was huge for all its primary seiyuu (Toyosaki, Kotobuki, Hikasa, Taketatsu, Satou).
Haruhi was a big deal for Chihara, Hirano, Gotou to an extent. Even Ono D, in the sense that he had a lot of roles before but most were mob background/side characters.
Chuunibyou will hopefully do great things for Uchida Maaya and Akasaki Chinatsu (her Yasuna performance was the best thing about Kill Me Baby) and the rest.

Hyouka on the other hand was all very established seiyuu who already had achieved high status, from Kayano to Satou to Nakamura to Sakaguchi.

Curious to see which direction they take with Tamako market.

jmal said:

You mean you're not big on the convoluted, bastardized concept of "moe" that western fans have made up. Which has nothing to do with what you actually like or dislike in real shows, hence why you think a show you like can't possibly be "moe" - because "moe" has just come to be defined by people as "stuff I dislike". Ergo, only other people are into "moe". The whole thing is a big intellectual mess, given the way it's discussed in foreign fandom.

symbv said:
Just goes to show why the word MOE is at the end a subjective concept. Sometimes you see it and you like it; sometimes you see it and you don't mind it (happen to many watchers in Japan); sometimes you see it and you hate it (seem to happen particularly often among western fans); sometimes you don't even notice it (seems to be your case with Haruhi).

And back to Haruhi, it is definitely a show that is widely considered to contain lots of moe elements in it. They just seem to pass you by but not to many others, that's it.

jmal said:


It's all good, most people I notice follow female seiyuu more closely these days almost to the point where they seem to forget or not really acknowledge that their are male seiyuu that exist and have careers. It's just the market environment and that people tend to gravitate more towards the bishoujo characters cause they're honestly a lot more promoted by the Japanese entertainment industry right now than just about any other concept. I just felt I'd make that point because I don't feel Kyoani is doing things particularly different in this case.

One thing I have noticed though and perhaps this is more important than some might think is that when Kyoani has chosen newish seiyuu for lead roles in their shows they've often been quite physically attractive and young looking (moreso than the usual seiyuu standard) with a gravure idolish quality to them, which to be honest probably helps their profile and the overall promotion of both the shows and their seiyuu careers considerably when they get exposure like this. There's nothing like making an attractive seiyuu the face of your franchise to help promote it.

Anyway if I'm being honest I can think of only two female seiyuu they did give a noticeable profile boost to that really went onto any greater aspirations than strictly being cast in moe oriented roles. Aya Hirano who eventually went on to self-destruct and Aya Endo who went on to play many different kinds of roles ranging from hot-blooded heroines to children to even animal characters. Though arguably Aya Endo's real big break was Macross Frontier as Sheryl Nome and not Lucky Star where if I recall she played by far the least used and one of the least popular characters.

Regarding moe shows, I tend to distinguish between the idea of moe shows and shows that simply have moe in them (the majority really) based on just how much the moe concept appears to drive the overall course and nature of the show. The line can be very thin indeed though. Haruhi I'd put a little more into the latter category if just barely because it has a lot more going on plot and character wise than simply depicting moe situations (the only character that really fits this is non-adult Asahina Mikuru), but everything else Kyoani has done since I'd definitely put into the former. I mean moe is pretty much the first thing one thinks of when they here the name Kyoto Animation, it's almost become synonymous with the concept to the point where one can kind of already tell if they are going to enjoy the shows or not just by hearing if they're behind it. Not exactly a studio for big surprises these days for better and for worse.

jmal said:


I don't know anything about the Japanese audiences, and by "mass appeal" I actually meant within the otaku/anime lover community as opposed to for non-anime people. Just take a look at my list and tell me if you think K-ON! would be something I'd enjoy, because I kinda doubt it. Haruhi, on the other hand, fits nicely within my taste range even though that comedy school harem-ish setting holds zero appeal to me. It was the introduction of the fantasy/science fiction element that made it so special in my opinion. K-ON! has nothing to offer to people who aren't already K-ON!'s target audience. At least that's the impression I get from it. And again - I'm not knocking it. I'm sure it's great if that's your thing. It just isn't really my thing.

jmal said:

Moreso? Idol work is almost as important as acting for female seiyuu, and talent agencies will shoot for that early on, before they've ever got roles. Can't say I've noticed any trend of KyoAni female seiyuu being more or less attractive than other new seiyuu who find success.

Not including Toyosaki Aki at the very least in your list is either a genuine oversight or implies you're using one of those definitions of moe that's vague and broad enough that it's impossible to have a conversation about it, because any examples I bring up would fall under it for you.

jmal said:


That's great for her, but I I don't really understand what you're trying to get across with this point and why it's important.



While there's certainly some truth to this. though I must say it strikes me that a lot it seems difficult for people at times to defend Kyoani without finding some other studio to put down at the same time in some way even if the same point can be made just as easily without having to resort to that, which is the case here at least for me. I've always kind of wondered what's with that. That's sort of the passive-aggressiveness I've talked about that's probably causing at least some of the backlash. It's been going on for kind of a while so I think it's understandable if some people are a little fed up and lashing out. It looks like a bit of a vicious cycle to me that both sides are kind of perpetuating knowingly or not.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Regarding moe shows, I tend to distinguish between the idea of moe shows and shows that simply have moe in them (the majority really) based on just how much the moe concept appears to drive the overall course and nature of the show. The line can be very thin indeed though. Haruhi I'd put a little more into the latter category if just barely because it has a lot more going on plot and character wise than simply depicting moe situations (the only character that really fits this is non-adult Asahina Mikuru), but everything else Kyoani has done since I'd definitely put into the former.

neontaster said:
I don't know anything about the Japanese audiences, and by "mass appeal" I actually meant within the otaku/anime lover community as opposed to for non-anime people. Just take a look at my list and tell me if you think K-ON! would be something I'd enjoy, because I kinda doubt it. Haruhi, on the other hand, fits nicely within my taste range even though that comedy school harem-ish setting holds zero appeal to me. It was the introduction of the fantasy/science fiction element that made it so special in my opinion. K-ON! has nothing to offer to people who aren't already K-ON!'s target audience. At least that's the impression I get from it. And again - I'm not knocking it. I'm sure it's great if that's your thing. It just isn't really my thing.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
That's great for her, but I I don't really understand what you're trying to get across with this point and why it's important.

symbv said:
That is a bit odd definition of "mass appeal" you have it there. For "mass appeal" I would say most people would think appeal beyond the otaku/anime-love community, and in this aspect K-On has done very very well, and this is precisely because K-On has a lot to offer to those who are not already K-On target audience (at least not the core part of its target). K-On is well known to have two very different parts of fan base, one composed of the otaku but there is also a much larger fan base who do not usually watch midnight anime and got to know K-On later by rental or friends. From interviews I read, the staff held hopes to attract those people but really they never expected it could be taken up by so many people who don't usually watch anime.

neontaster said:
I still think that if you aren't the type of person to watch a musical comedy show, K-ON! won't really have much to offer you (I am speaking out of complete ignorance here, by the way. This is just the impression I get from it). There just happen to be more people out there who WOULD watch a musical comedy show than those that won't

symbv said:
I would say this is precisely one area where the brilliance of K-On rests. There has not been any serious attempt in making a musical comedy anime before K-On, and even though Japanese are familiar with slice-of-life comedy and many are fans of it, the idea of a musical comedy does not have much of a root in Japan (at least outside the arthouse or imported area). But yet K-On went on to become a big franchise appealing to many who not only do not usually watch anime but are not even familiar with the idea of a musical comedy. So if you view it from the Japan perspective, K-On has really much to offer and it is not hard to see why it is treated to be such a refreshing idea.

Besides if we look at it closely, K-On is not really a musical, but more a SoL anime with a strong music component which oddly does not feature prominently within the story itself but makes its presence mainly on the periphery like OP/ED and character songs, so I would not say K-On really appeals to people who would watch a musical comedy. To them they may even complain about the lack of music inside the main part of the anime.

jmal said:


After all, how many threads for, say, AIC shows do you see turning into "AIC is shoving moe down our throats!" no matter how many fanservice or romcom shows with cute girls (the usual but not always uber-vague concept western fans try to associate with the word)

neontaster said:
You are splitting hairs here and ignoring the general point. K-ON!, regardless of its quality (which I am not disputing, by the way. I don't think that something is bad just because it isn't my thing), is a show for a specific audience.

neontaster said:
Forget the musical element for one second (you yourself said it was fairly minor). What does K-ON! have to offer besides being a school comedy? Does it have suspense? Horror? Action? Tragedy? I doubt it.

SetsukoHara said:
When I talk about moe anime, people know exactly what I'm talking about. I couldn't care less if it is considered to be an official genre or not. Should I stop using a slang word because it is not in the dictionnary? Hell no, if people are able to understand me, why should I care so much about the opinions of some academicians.

SetsukoHara said:
An uber-vagueness of the term? Are you kidding, most genre are completely vague to begin with. The first word that come to people's mind when you talk about One Piece is: shounen. Should One piece fans complain about it because the shounen term is a really vague one as it can be used for Hokuto no Ken or Dr Slump.

symbv said:
Actually I think it is you who are splitting hair when you argue the anime is only for audience who would watch musical comedy, and this is this general point of yours that I dispute. What I am saying is that the anime is not really for that small part of audience. There are many K-On lovers who are not into musical comedy nor anime but find K-On appealing. This is my point. I am not trying to persuade why you should not think K-On is not for you. Your preference is your own and I have no intention of influencing you, but generalizing your lack of interest towards K-On to a wider theory that K-On has nothing to offer to people who are would not watch musical comedy is a bit pushing it.

This comes up whenever slice-of-life show is brought up by non-fans (or haters) because they think there is no content or plot or substance in it but that is more because they fail to see the merits of a slice-of-life show. It is a school comedy, yes, but it is a slice-of-life kind of comedy, and it proves inspiring enough for huge number of people to join or start school band club in their school. If it is just a run-of-the-mill comedy I doubt it would have such a power to inspire people.

neontaster said:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who don't normally watch shows that are generally similar to K-ON probably won't find it interesting. Do you not agree with that?

neontaster said:
The reason I mention Haruhi Suzumiya all the time (aside from it being a KyoAni show) is that it manages to be a SOL school comedy BUT ALSO have elements of suspense, horror, action, intrigue, tragedy, and such, which makes it appealing to more different kinds of people, not to more people quantitatively.

neontaster said:
Was Mawaru Penguindrum a simple SOL drama? Hell no. Take out all the magic and mystery and suspense and you have a potentially good SOL show, but that's it. With all those things added, it becomes something truly special. I just get the impression that these "regular" SOL comedies won't really have anything special to offer me, and "special" is a KEY word for me with regards to anime.

symbv said:
But you also said that K-On appeals to only to people who are the target audience of the anime anyway, and this is what I dispute. You seem to think that those K-On production really has all those people who don't watch anime or a musical comedy in mind as "target audience" and thus proceed to make the show to appeal to them as well. What I am saying is that K-On proves its appeal outside its original target audience. They do not watch shows that are generally similar to K-On but they find K-On appealing.

If you had only said that "people who don't normally watch shows that are generally similar to K-ON probably won't find it interesting" without going to generalizing it to what its target audience is, I don't think I would raise any objection.

Hmm... I think it is you who are again splitting hair and over-generalizing here. You seem to suggest that those people who enjoy Haruhi must be "different kind of people" while those who enjoy K-On must be just one kind of people. Yes, Haruhi is a hybrid and in Japan there were even debates whether the show should be called a SoL show, and many if not the majority think its primary genre should be sci-fi adventure instead, in which case I can revert your argument and say that all those elements are just aspects of the "adventure" and so it appeals only to its "target audience", those who love adventure. From what I see, it is simplistic to say a successful anime like K-On would appeal to only one kind of audience, and I wonder if this is because K-On happens to be an anime you feel indifferent to.

To be honest, in Japan Penguindrum is not categorized as SoL show, at least not by most of the anime watchers. It is because as much as there are SoL elements it is not never its focus. The adventure begins almost right from the beginning and it has never changed its focus. Just because there are some SoL moments does not make the show a SoL show (otherwise I may just call Ranma and Total Eclipse all SoL shows as well). For a proper SoL show, its primary focus is SoL and it is never about any other element. And whether a SoL show is a good SoL show should be judged on how well it presents the SoL elements, and it is where K-ON shines and what makes K-ON "truly special" to many people. I understand that you don't see anything special in K-On or some other SoL shows, which is fine - I just want to say that there are many who will find something truly special to them in a good SoL show.

neontaster said:
I am only going on perception. I accept that I could be wrong here. I guess I am saying that if I don't see some kind of "added benefit" to an SOL show, I probably won't watch it. But a show that has moe elements but also this elusive "added benefit" that I speak of would be something that I'd definitely check out. The origin of this discussion was me saying that moe shows aren't my thing, but that doesn't mean that shows that have moe elements aren't. I just see the straight comedy/SOL shows as more prime candidates to meet my definition of "moe shows" - ESPECIALLY ones made by KyoAni.

neontaster said:
There are plenty of shows that just cater to the adventure/action/sci-fi/fantasy genres. There's nothing wrong with that. But I wouldn't expect people who enjoy SOL to watch a show like that. Haruhi kinda bridges that gap, don't you think? If I can love it, and SOL/comedy/school fans can love it, that's a pretty impressive feat. K-On may reach beyond the borders of its target audience, but not far beyond. Haruhi brings together opposite sides of the taste spectrum, which is why it impressed me so much. It's not easy to get a horror buff and a SOL buff to agree that a show rules and caters to their respective tastes at the same time.

neontaster said:
Sure, but a pure SOL show, no matter how fantastic it is, will always just be an SOL show. Let's take this outside anime for one second - if romantic comedies are your thing, then The Walking Dead will probably not appeal to you, NO MATTER HOW FANTASTIC IT IS. However, something like Zombieland can bring together fans of comedy AND fans of horror and zombies. That doesn't mean Zombieland is better than The Walking Dead. It just means it can appeal to people with a greater variance in taste. The same can be said about Penguindrum (which has some SOL elements, but tons of adventure, mystery, magic, etc.) and Haruhi Suzumiya (which is heavier on the SOL and lighter on the other stuff). Neither of those shows are objectively better than K-On (there is no such thing as "objectively better" anyway), but both of them appeal to me despite their SOL elements while K-On probably won't appeal to me due to its lack of stuff like adventure/mystery/horror/action etc.

symbv said:
Well, a SoL show can be something absolutely non-moe which was the case since the very early days of Sazae-san - not saying your definition about "moe shows" necessarily mix up moe shows with SoL shows, but just want to clear this up for the sake of others reading this thread. Now, what makes a SoL show like Sazae-san and K-On to appeal to much larger group of groups who don't usually watch anime? I believe this is what I am interested. Of course if you say that you find yourself more attracted to those "added elements" ("added benefit" in your word) than the SoL bits, that's fair enough, though I would caution against drawing broad conclusion about the SoL genre (and "moe show") from your preference.

Well, I would definitely agree that Haruhi is special but I would not want to exaggerate how much it pulls the "opposite sides of the taste spectrum together" as I think at heart it appeals to a certain type of audience and those who love it may not really like it because it caters to his need for his core love of horror/tragedy/action - There may be people who are horror bluff and love Huruhi purely because of how it deals with its small part of horror but I kind of doubt there are many of them. Horror fans who also love Haruhi may just come to love it as what it is - a good attempt to present a scifi highschool adventure in an eclectic mix of elements.

I see what you want to say here. What I would agree with you is that SoL can be a niche and it also may not allow as much diversity as in a broader genre like adventure. I can agree with you that those who do not find SoL appealing at all would find it hard to like a show like K-On, while there may still be something they can enjoy in Haruhi (and it is despite the SoL part not because of it as you said). As for Penguindrum, I personally do not put it as a SoL show (same thinking as the fans in Japan) so I would just leave that out for the discussion here.

jmal said:
Is it truly unusual that someone would like both "slice of life" (however we're defining it) and other kinds of shows? Perhaps some might like "slice of life" more than other types of shows, but rarely to the exclusion of everything else.

I believe that real people are a good deal more complex than the abstractions being debated. I for one feel no internal conflict at liking Hidamari Sketch, Steins;Gate, Lain, Usagi Drop, Precure, Jigoku Shoujo, Bakuman, Suzumiya Haruhi, Evangelion, Clannad, Hunter x Hunter, Gundam 08th, and Madoka Magica simultaneously. Some I like more than others, some I'm in the mood for more often than others, but they're all enjoyable for me.

jmal said:

The conversation was supposed to be about seiyuu who had a breakout role in KyoAni shows and have found sustained and large-scale success since. So of course "she gets a lot of roles and is really popular post K-ON!" is important, it's really the whole point of the conversation... It's not about "seiyuu who Kaioshin_Sama and I like" because really who cares?


I honestly have no idea how you ever came to the conclusion that I was putting AIC down rather than pointing out a problem with your argument.

Seems to me you're looking (consciously or unconsciously) for reasons to conclude that people who enjoy KyoAni shows are somehow inherently unreasonable. I say the unreasonableness is with the people who constantly criticize the fans as if it's any of their business what I or anyone else enjoys.

neontaster said:


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who don't normally watch shows that are generally similar to K-ON probably won't find it interesting. Do you not agree with that? The reason I mention Haruhi Suzumiya all the time (aside from it being a KyoAni show) is that it manages to be a SOL school comedy BUT ALSO have elements of suspense, horror, action, intrigue, tragedy, and such, which makes it appealing to more different kinds of people, not to more people quantitatively.



Once again I will go back to Haruhi Suzumiya here (sorry for being a broken record but it happens to be a perfect example of what I'm trying to say) - it managed to do all the things you say but then added even more elements from different kinds of shows, which made it interesting to me and more special. I see myself easily enjoying a SOL comedy provided that it wasn't JUST an SOL comedy. Was Mawaru Penguindrum a simple SOL drama? Hell no. Take out all the magic and mystery and suspense and you have a potentially good SOL show, but that's it. With all those things added, it becomes something truly special. I just get the impression that these "regular" SOL comedies won't really have anything special to offer me, and "special" is a KEY word for me with regards to anime. I like it because it does stuff I haven't seen done anywhere else. Romantic comedies exist everywhere and in every format. Shows about little girls who are brainwashed into monstrous murderers who can twist your head off like a bottle cap do not.

neontaster said:
Ironically, I didn't even like Haruhi Suzumiya that much (I mean, I LOOOOOVED Shoushitsu, but the show was just OK. 8-ish good episodes out of 28 isn't exactly a stellar record). And I'm not necessarily talking about people who only watch horror. I'm a horror buff but also like other things. I'm just not sure that a pure SOL show would appeal to me. The pure SOL episodes of Haruhi were the ones that kinda bored me.

RyanSaotome said:
I'll just say that K-On airs on the freaking Disney Channel in Japan. Its about as mainstream as anime gets over there.. you'd never see Haruhi airing there.

neontaster said:
Believe me - if there is one thing that anime has taught me, it is not to judge things on appearance. I'm not even saying I definitely won't enjoy K-On if I give it a shot. I'm just less likely to give it that shot because it doesn't seem to include my kinds of elements.

neontaster said:
Ironically, I didn't even like Haruhi Suzumiya that much (I mean, I LOOOOOVED Shoushitsu, but the show was just OK. 8-ish good episodes out of 28 isn't exactly a stellar record). And I'm not necessarily talking about people who only watch horror. I'm a horror buff but also like other things. I'm just not sure that a pure SOL show would appeal to me. The pure SOL episodes of Haruhi were the ones that kinda bored me.

neontaster said:


EXACTLY. But you're saying that like it's a good thing. I personally feel that almost anything that can be aired on a Disney channel is probably not for me. I never used the word "mainstream." I said "mass appeal" but that wasn't the right term to use. I mean something that can appeal to the mainstream AND the fringe.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
I actually get what your trying to say here cause I believe I'm kind of in the same boat. I really struggle with these so-called Slice of Life shows at times because there's just not enough going on or any real surprises in the narrative to hook me or get me deeper into what's going on. The fact that I've found a large number of Kyoani shows entirely to predictable and thin on narrative has kind of made it hard for me find much lasting appeal in them, which frequently results in dropped anime. I'm not saying I don't find some amusement in shows like the recent Chuunibyou, it's just that whatever amusement I've gotten out of them is usually fleeting and a good 90% of the time I'm stuck sitting their waiting for the next amusing scene or dialogue to come along. It's a little frustrating though I am curious to get to the bottom of the appeal people see in it. Usually when I inquire I get much the same answer as you did which is to have people point to just how many people are buying or watching the show as opposed to something like say pesonal anecdote or comparison. It's that thing I mentioned above again, that it almost seems like people would rather just trumpet what they see as Kyoani's achievements then to have them understand what it is they do for them.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
It's funny because while watching K-On I always said that it seems like the kind of show that would get the most mileage out of being watched by really young children because it reminded me of Saturday Morning Cartoons only more Japanese and that's exactly what ended up happening.

symbv said:
Whenever I discuss or debate about slice-of-life anime (often referred to as "moe anime") with western fans, "plot" is of course one thing that is always brought up, and another word that comes up ever so often is "conflict", and this is where I disagree with a lot of western fans - that conflict must form a part of the story in the anime for it to be relevant, to be meaningful. I guess with all those so-called "writing 101" concept people in the west are bought up with and accustomed to, it is not hard to see why slice-of-life shows never appears. People seem to come to the expectation that a story must have conflict with at least some intensity, but they forget that actually in their daily life there are actually a lot of happy little things that you enjoy with your friends your family or your neighbors and a lot of the time is passed without that much of intense drama or conflict. If we say that those intense drama depicted in TV drama or animation in the west reflects certain truth about our humanity and our life, even though it is much exaggerated; I would say that the slice-of-life show in anime actually is doing the same, only that the exaggeration goes the other way, that is it deliberately reduces the drama/conflict parts instead of increasing it like most other TV/movie do. To me I think it is actually one contribution that Japan has given us: It shows us the wonder and happiness of life, of family, of friends and of the community. And I believe it is why people love those kind of shows and find them interesting. Cute character designs of course help a lot but if that alone is sufficient there should be no need for any animation. At the end the story and how it is presented still counts, as much as one who dislikes this kind of show may want to dismiss it as "no plot" or "no drama".

Face_Faith said:
Well, there are some people who prefer anime over manga simply because "it's moving" or something along those lines. xD

symbv said:
Actually I would be more surprised that you love Haruhi given what I heard from you. And really I wonder how you could draw the conclusion that the anime's main appeal is to pull together "opposite of taste spectrum" given you only find it OK and found it not enjoyable to continue after a couple of episodes. As I said, I believe Haruhi at its heart appeals by what it is (and that appeal is heavily influenced by its strong SoL element) and not because it caters for the needs of buffs of vastly different genres.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
It's funny because while watching K-On I always said that it seems like the kind of show that would get the most mileage out of being watched by really young children because it reminded me of Saturday Morning Cartoons only more Japanese and that's exactly what ended up happening. I can't help but agree that stating this here though is missing the point of what you seem to be looking for information-wise though. Again I also can't help but get that feeling that some just want people to acknowledge what they see as Kyoani's grand achievement rather than to actually understand other peoples tastes and through that have them understand the appeal.

Truthfully I wish I could help more here, but I can't think of any other anime Kyoani has done besides Haruhi itself that might have enough going on in the narrative for you to be interested in it. Maybe their most recent one Chuunibyou *shrug* I mean I've gotten more mileage out of it than any other since Haruhi and there's some times when it's genuinely funny to me without laying on the cutesiness factor too much even if lately it's been more about a pretty cheesy and sudden romance that's a little hard to get involved in. In any case it doesn't look like you'd find much to like about K-On from what I've seen you state in this thread.

neontaster said:
I felt the need to stick with it because the Melancholy arc (the first 6 episodes) was very strong and I kept waiting for a repeat performance. I got glimpses of it throughout the show, and the movie delivered in spades, so all in all my opinion of it is definitely positive.

neontaster said:
Just don't give me the same god damn episode 8 times in a row and I'll be more than happy. :)

symbv said:
Truth be told, the movie is easily the least SoL in the whole Haruhi anime. It is easily an adventure and drama, and I think KyoAni actually reduces the SoL elements in the novel when they made the movie.

neontaster said:
Just don't give me the same god damn episode 8 times in a row and I'll be more than happy. :)

jmal said:


Well that's a relief and perhaps not really that much of a surprise considering the theory I've had that times are changing faster than I think It's really good to be meeting more and more reasonable Kyoani fans these days cause truth be told my first, second and even third impressions of the fanbase was that they were borderline rabid about and defensive of the brand in the extreme. Things seem to be changing lately though and I'm seeing a bit more....humbleness, humility and an understanding that anime doesn't revolve around this one studio. Still you'll have to forgive me if I don't 100% trust some peoples intentions right away cause as I said my first introduction to Kyoani fans online could not have possibly given me more of a poor impression and that they have trouble appreciating and respecting other peoples opinions and tastes.



I don't deny the power of the brand, just as long as people acknowledge that that brand power has no real effect on some I'm perfectly fine with respecting peoples affection for that brand. The one thing I don't get though is how often even in episodic threads for Kyoani shows it often seems like the discussion is more about the brand than what actually transpired in the show. Though indeed lately they aren't the only ones and I definitely see similar circumstances for Shaft and PA Works, especially Shaft who really seem to have entered the public consciousness of late. Maybe that's just the nature of "slice of life" shows in general though, people tend to talk more about the execution of them by the staff because that's what is key in them working for people. You've given me something to think about here and I thank you for it.



Yeah like I said I've definitely noticed that the tone of the threads have changed a lot to be more accepting of curious but wary folk like myself. I used to remember even suggesting that I think there's room for improvement and that I find Kyoani's appeal limited but of curiosity to me would have gotten me flamed like no tomorrow. I wonder just what it is has changed....it almost seems that the likes of K-On and the shows that have come since have attracted a new generation of fans that have seen a significant mellowing out of the base and brought it more in line with what I consider to be reason and reality. I could not have had this kind of conversation 4 years ago...it just would never have happened and yet it's happening more and more often by the month. This is good and I long for the day when it no longer comes as a pleasant surprise to me. :)


Because many of them are using it as an empty epithet for purposes of being dismissive about things they aren't interested in, rather than making an honest attempt at any meaningful categorization. As usual. There are some people who I disagree with usage on, but at least can credit with trying to use it constructively, rather than as a third grade-level insult like "moeshit" or "moeblob". But they're few and far between. Most make no such effort.

And which has what to do with KyoAni, exactly? Besides that people are even quicker to abuse the word than usual when KyoAni shows are being discussed. But it happens with plenty of other shows/studios, like clockwork.

symbv said:
I can only applaud KyoAni for having such courage to experiment (and with heavy cost which I really don't know if they realized when they made that Endless 8 decision). Given the decision they made they actually did it well -- not that many scenes were recycled (so they are not really "the same") and the whole thing also set the stage very well for the movie (which chronologically took place right after the Endless Eight arc). But that is clearly a very risky move and payoff is so limited. I do not agree with that decision but I am impressed by KyoAni for making such decision.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Earlier when you listed that wide variety of shows, a lot of those are ones I actually like as well, which stuck me as interesting cause in the past I never would have seen a person that was a fan of Kyoani listing a Gundam (my favorite franchise historically btw) series as something they could appreciate

symbv said:
If you go to Japan you should not have difficulty to find Gundam fans who are also K-On fans. And I would even list myself among them as well -- I watched Gundam when it first came out back in 1979 and it was the anime that decisively pulled me away from watching western superhero cartoons which are also supposed to be about grand and epic fights between good and bad sides (and I should add the old-school mecha shows like Mazinger and tokusatsu shows like Ultraman from Japan as well). Granted my taste has shifted over time, and now I would say I enjoy in general more slice-of-life shows than mecha shows, but that does not change my high opinion of Gundam.

jmal said:

If there's defensiveness about KyoAni it's because they and their fans have are attacked more often and more viciously than any other I can think of, especially since K-ON!.

Probably only JC Staff gets as visceral a reaction from people who are displeased to see the name, though the dynamic there is pretty different, and the reasons different as well.

Execution is definitely king. When one appreciates the "how" above the "what", then it's not a problem if they're watching half a dozen anime featuring a school club and a culture festival. From a (very generalized) "what" perspective they'll seem "the same" but if you're interested in "how" they are executed like I am, they can be profoundly different experiences. Therefore I, and probably others, put special emphasis on the details of how a scene is presented, even if the "plot" of the scene is not complex.

I think this also happens with individuals and not just studios. Take Nagai Tatsuyuki or Satou Jun'ichi. But they work for a variety of studios, while KyoAni is pretty centralized, and so "KyoAni" becomes stand-in for Yamada and Ishihara and the like. It also becomes a stand-in for their highly respected animation team in general, same way for example PA Works always gets high marks in that area.

It's all about how it's expressed. I don't think I've ever objected to "what" an opinion is (I don't really care if someone dislikes Idolmaster or whatever). Unless it's something that can be directly challenged with objective evidence ( e.g. "Nobody likes 'x' show" can be contradicted with Oricon sales data), or if it's in some other way a gross misrepresentation of what someone has said.

But for the most part, it's all about "how" it's presented. Not being a fan of something KyoAni or Shaft or A1 or Madhouse does is okay. Contributing nothing beyond slop like "lol moeshit" or "derp pretentiousfag" (whether in two words or two hundred words) isn't.

In some places (like here), yes. The larger the site, the more common it is, I guess. I'm part of some smaller communities where it's not an issue and people generally respect differences. In a big chaotic board like this one (or in the extreme, something like 4chan) it seems like far less value is placed on respect. Threads are seen less as conversations than as as fire-and-forget dumping grounds for one-liner opinions of the crudest sort.

I've always found broad tastes to be the best weapon against boredom or disillusionment with the medium. Gundam and Aria might appeal to me in different ways but they can both still be a positive way to spend 24 minutes a week.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
I'm pretty sure I will always differ from some because I don't think this is especially worthy of being applauded nor really courageous so much as just plain lazy.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
I've just never understood how people can not only defend this decision but try to spin as a strength for the show and the producers. Also I really don't think that saying "well it's not EXACTLY the same" is going to convince many people who expected the show to actually allot a proper amount of time to getting more of the LN story in there. I detest nothing more in anime than wasted time and meandering plotlines and this is kind of the defining example of that. The way I see it no matter how you spin it it was just a total waste of episodes that denied Haruhi fans the chance to see more adapted from the light novel that they enjoyed.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
I simply cannot bring myself to be impressed by a decision that anybody could have honestly made, but would have hopefully had the common sense to realize was a non-productive, gimmicky (I'm really glad Kyoani seems to have toned down the gimmickry of late btw which used to plague their shows and be a major turn off) and wasteful way of adapting a work that at that point was in very high demand for a sequel and which people were very excited about when announced.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
It just does not achieve a single positive thing that I can see and no matter how one tries to spin it I think it's still a very silly move that reeks of arrogance, as if to thumb peoples nose in the face of the fact that they can do something like that and still have a successful return on the show. I know many too will celebrate this as if to suggest that only Kyoani could get away with something like this as if that's a good thing, but I won't hear of it for a second as anything positive again. It was definitely Kyoani's lowest moment as I can see akin to something like Bones 4 clip shows in a row for Wolfs Rain.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Yeah you aren't missing much lately if you aren't watching mecha anime cause the genres kind of struggling to modernize itself of late leading to some really awkward and uneven storylines.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Only with anime in Japan could you really find such a peculiar marriage of tastes. Somehow I think they're doing it a little more right over there when it comes to the idea of a supportive fandom that can have differing tastes but still get along. It's always struck me as like being at one big convention that never really ends over there. Can you confirm this?

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Non-chronological airing of episodes in Haruhi, things like working references to Kadokawa and the seiyuu of Haruhi every chance they could possibly get in Lucky Star, Endless Eight, it seemed like they felt every show they did really early on had to have some sort of gimmick to it, but they've long since stopped doing that so I don't even really think it's worth discussing all that much anymore. It was just an aside.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
By the way if there is anything emotional that is coloring my posts it's probably just my latent general uneasiness and fear that I'm going to get jumped on or that I'm going to end up some how regretting dialoguing with Kyoani fans since despite my best efforts and intentions I never seemed to make much progress or reach an understanding with them in the past. The implication was always that if I didn't immediately acknowledge everything they argued in favor of Kyoani as the absolute truth that I was a hater and therefore my opinion didn't matter and I needed to be "taken care of". That's not a feeling that's easily shaken off.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
By the way the Japanese scene sounds still imperfect but at least like it makes a concerted effort to make things work. When I look at the western scene though it kind of seems like no small wonder that the industry had collapsed a few years ago and that anime will probably never quite reach the same heights of almost mainstream penetration and acceptance that it had at the start of the millennium.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
As for Space Opera and Mecha stuff, I certainly hope that's not the case cause if that goes completely then so does a good chunk of what made me an anime fan. That said it still looks like mecha and space opera is plenty popular in Japan judging by the popularity of the new Yamato anime and Gundam Unicorn though noticeably those are both OVA's and not TV series where most of the problematic storytelling seem to be occurring. I think that the industry just needs to take a good long hard look at what those particular shows are doing right by fans and what they've been doing that hasn't been working as much and try to remember what made the genre popular in the first place instead of hastily trying to modernize it. I don't think it's working the way they'd intended it too.