Anime Information

Forums

THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
----------------------------------------
.... It was okay I guess. I wanted something a little more.

I liked it.

I have to agree, I wanted a little more for the ending but it was alright.
I was surprised they actually lost their memories, I thought something would happen and they wouldn't have to, oh well.

Another question.. Why didn't Hervé's sister turn into a monster? She just died.. I thought there would be someone that they fought hardcore on but I guess not.

Gothic inevitability and despair were fairly key in the series overall. Certain things were inescapable, including a fairly bad end for our heroines. Their only two options were always "die again" or "live forever without memories". There was never going to be a happy ending or a way to fix things, from start to finish the team worked to create a bleak gothic tale for the modern world. Not exactly uplifting lol, but at least they were consistent in their vision.

Anna died before she could turn completely. The lack of a "big boss" (per say) again fits in with the traditional gothic themes in the series.

I think it was a great series and great ending. 10/10

Uhhh, actually, she didn't just die. Watch it again and you'll realize that her brother actually squeezes her to death in his arms. It was supposed to be this really tragic moment because he realizes he's too late and that she is doomed to be a monster. So he uses his strength to crush her.

Further, she does turn completely as evidenced by the fact that she starts chewing Herve's neck out. I think they just had her have that one moment of clarity before totally dying to try and milk more drama out of the situation, like somehow she gained awareness briefly because she was dying anyway. Frankly, that just highlights one of the issues that I had with the series: it was way too sentimental in places. The creator's often try so hard to get a sad/sympathetic response out of their viewers that the moment is completely undeserved and we can tell they're just trying to manipulate our emotions cheaply.

My main beef with the ending though is that they really didn't answer jack. Why did they need x amount of dead people in their little cult (the Animus say at one point that having a certain number to match the number of coffins is necessary, but not why this is so)? Who were those girls (the frozen ones)? What was the story surrounding them? Why in the world didn't they try to train their new recruits if they were so important to helping them? Like, why wouldn't they tell them from the start what was going on and help prepare them to fight? Why just let them get killed? What really happened that one day at the manor? (Seriously, we never get the full story on that and it bugs the heck out of me!) What was up with the red flowers? The list goes on and on and on....and on....and on.

I wasn't denying that Hervé killed Anna (he did, as you said). I was simply stating that her death occurred before she changed form completely (which was in relation to the question originally asked). Anna was in the final throes of the curse, but she did not finish her physical transformation. She wavered in and out of that state before Hervé put her out of her misery, killing her while a trace of his sister remained in that shell. If she'd transformed completely, losing herself entirely, she wouldn't have been able to say "Onii-sama" nor would her eyes have returned to normal or her hands been able to grasp at the wall. Suggesting that her transformation was complete at this point would make it inconsistent with the rest of the transformations in the series. I'm not suggesting she was "all there" by any means (most of her was clearly gone and her limbs had starting to make that snapping noise) but Hervé was able to kill her before that last trace of "Anna" escaped and her body betrayed her completely.

I didn't feel this scene was too sentimental or manipulative considering Hervé's plot had been building to it since Anna was introduced, but your own mileage will clearly vary.

Red Garden was never a series interested in solving mysteries or answering questions. This is why I mentioned its adherence to gothic staples in my previous comment. Though Red Garden is not a gothic text in the purest sense, the ambiguity and deliberate avoidance of certainty is paramount to the success of a title trying to invoke terror in such a context. In some ways definitely, this isn't fulfilling - I'd have loved to learn more about the original conflict, the origin of the clans, etc. etc. But when it comes down to it, none of these things matter all that much with regard to the narrative that's been presented to us. The lack of explanation adds to the overall feeling of terror and chaos. There is no black or white in this world, good or bad, right or wrong - it's unnerving to think that this universe denies us certainty at every turn.

While I like the ambiguity in the anime manor scene, the fifth chapter of the manga tackles it in a more straight-forward manner (and in what appears to be chronological order). The manga might be worth checking out if you liked the series but craved more structure, it's a solid re-imagining.

Ah, gotcha. My mistake, I misinterpreted what you said, and you are absolutely right. Though I do still question whether or not she made that final transformation. The biting of her brother's neck is pretty severe. An interesting, if minor, point for debate.

I actually do like tales with gothic themes/settings. My problem here is that usually such tales present an environment, a strong context for the characters to be in that affects their actions and then it's more about the characters working towards an relationship-based goal, like revenge by taking advantage of that environment. That way, you don't mind if plot elements are dropped. Now, arguably, Red Garden does do this, to an extent. But the relationship goals that would drive the story seem to involve the characters other than the girls. Yes, the main girls have issues, but their issues are very commonplace, coming out because of their situation, but not really wholly connected to the context (like Rachel has horrible friends, Clare can't appreciate her one friend/family, etc... These issues are highlighted because of the circumstance, but they aren't largely connected). The other characters, like Herve do have goals directly relating to the situation, so it seems to me that they either should have removed the greater supernatural subplot (the fighting covens) and just focused on the girls with the set-up of "They're dead and they have to fight" (without really ever telling us why at all), or they should have shifted focus to Herve and the other clan members.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well here. I guess because of the girl's issues and how they are approached, the story often feels more akin to a soap opera rather than a true gothic tale, so throwing in those hints of a more action-based and concrete supernatural plot without fully explaining them feels disjoint to me. My interpretation of gothic tales is that the protagonist has to be in a situation that someone takes advantage of to create that air of unease and drama. Like the book/film Rebecca. I won't spoil it if you've not read/seen it, but the lead woman in that has a heck of a time when she discovers that her love interest used to be married to this woman, Rebecca. The actions of those around her are directly tied to the fact that something happened to Rebecca and so encase the story in a solid mystery that ends up dictating the tone and relationships. Red Garden has the context, but the girls (aside from being dead/alive and having to fight) don't have problems firmly tied to the clans conflict, so that's why it feels off to me.

Anyway, enough babble out of me. I think I will take you up on your advice and give the manga a read. Though I ultimately found it lacking, this is definitely a refreshing series in its uniqueness and characters, so it gets big points from me for that.

I'd venture that she was on the edge and Hervé managed to squeeze the life out of her at just the right moment. If he'd left it any longer, it seems unlikely she would have had that last second of clarity.



I mention gothic themes primarily because the creators have been quite specific about traditional gothic literature providing key inspiration for the series. They commissioned some interesting articles on the official site (jp) that outline the genre and its relation to the series (they're hardly academic, but they're fun).

Both the variance and similarity between the "normal" environment (and the girls' issues within it) and the "abnormal" environment (and the girls' issues within it) are key to Red Garden's execution. Juxtaposition between routine elements and the supernatural tends to be paramount in most early gothic texts, particularly with regard to the successful execution of psychological terror. You need the monotony of the everyday in order for gothic terror to be executed effectively, it gives contextual grounding as well as a heightened sense of unease once changes begin to take place.

For example, Emily's familial issues take up a considerable portion of Radcliffe's "The Mysteries of Udolpho". You could easily suggest that these issues are not only commonplace, but banal (who hasn't had family issues?). Most of them are unimportant (plot-wise) until Emily is actually located within the castle. The early scenes with Emily and her father seem average and meaningless when read on their own. Yet, as the father lays dying he tells Emily to gain command of her emotions. The rest of the text focuses on Emily trying to do just that, albeit within the framework of a cursed estate.

One could argue that a similar journey takes place within Red Garden. The girls must gain command of their senses within a familiar environment in order to survive in an unfamiliar one. Their growth as characters cannot be limited to the supernatural world as, like any gothic-esque characters, their worlds are not primarily supernatural. Metaphysical events are terrifying oddities rather than accepted banalities. Having command over the senses in both contexts is the key to a gothic heroine's survival. In this context, the gothic journey is about overcoming (or succumbing to) a combination of the normal and the abnormal.



But melodrama is a key feature in gothic texts, particularly those from Walpole's period through to the Romantics. Every element is heightened and over-the-top in a gothic tale in order to build terror. To suggest that Red Garden is any more hammy than the texts that helped inspire it is... well, it's not entirely accurate.



This is what happened in Red Garden though, in several ways. The girls are lured to their deaths, their naivety being their doom. The Animus take advantage of these deaths in just the way that the Doral hoped they would. I'm not sure how being murdered and body-snatched in order to be re-animated into service isn't uneasy or dramatic.



The girls have, as I mentioned above, problems tied to both the conflict and everyday life. Their primary concerns before being killed don't stop being concerns simply because they're in different bodies - had they instantly changed into killing machines the story would have lost much of its strength. As the series progresses they are able to let go of the everyday aspects to their lives and focus on their ultimate survival instead (which is in keeping with the plot and its context). The fact that they were innocent victims unrelated to the clan conflict is terribly gothic.

"Rebecca" is from a different period to the texts that directly inspired Red Garden and as such, has different thematic concerns. Unlike Red Garden, the supernatural aspects in "Rebecca" only provide a sliver of the overall terror invoked. Most of the unnerving, alarming moments relate to Mrs. Danvers and her obsessive, claustrophobic devotion to the estate and the deceased Rebecca. Red Garden relies more on the supernatural plot for its tension (which is both a strength and a failure, I feel).

The conflict in Red Garden is not set up as a mystery in need of being solved. It is something to be survived rather than pondered over. Why it began is almost inconsequential as solving its riddles would achieve little - the conflict does not end once its depth is revealed. This is where Red Garden seems to differ considerably from titles like "Rebecca", in which solving a mystery is key to surviving it. This difference seems to add to the overall sense of terror in the series. You can't "fix" the supernatural problems in Red Garden (which contrasts with the girls' everyday issues) nor can you escape them. It invokes a feeling of suffocation like du Maurier's novel, but its method and reasoning are not the same.

Gah, I didn't realise how long this post had become. I really enjoy Red Garden but I agree that it has its share of problems. The manga isn't licensed in English but the first volume is available raw online. In a lot of ways I feel the manga is more cohesive. It's only four volumes long so there's not a lot of time to devote to worrying about Rose's siblings or whatever-the-hell.

My goodness! Okay, well, I must submit to your obviously superior knowledge to the gothic genre. You are more well-versed, knowledgeable, and eloquent in relation to it than I. Fantastic points all around, and now, because of you, I really feel the urge to start studying the genre as thoroughly as I can. I do still diverge from your assertions in some minor ways. For example, you bring up that the power of gothic literature relies on the blending of the normal and abnormal problems faced by the protagonists, and that the girls in Red Garden have their share of both. While I agree that they do have issues of both veins, I guess, I realize now my problem is that the normal, commonplace problems hog the spotlight to the extreme. The abnormal problems don't get the same amount of attention, and once they move more into accepting the supernatural condition they are in, they don't seem to grapple with the new supernatural problems as they do their normal ones (which they still struggle with right to the end). In your example about Emily, her concerns do become more integrated with the supernatural toward the end, and aren't totally accepted or forgotten. The cursed estate creates an integrated atmosphere for character movement; it's not just a convenient backdrop. In Red Garden they do spend a good portion of the opening worrying about the fight/kill or die dilemma, but it's treated in a way that it IS tied to a mystery -- the mystery of their deaths. At the start, they always come back to "If only we could remember what happened that night," so the fact that they never do remember or solve that mystery is upsetting because in that fashion, the story IS initially more like "Rebecca" and those later gothic tellings.

I suppose also my one other remaining point of contention is that the girls don't act like someone in their situation really would. I completely agree that one of the goals of the story, and one of its better aspects, is that it takes people removed from the conflict and just throws them in, and we the viewers feel just as unnerved and disoriented as they do. They don't know all the answers, so we don't. And that works well for two-thirds of the series. However, at the end, they DO start to get answers, and instead of following up on them, like asking who the frozen children are, or what the deal is with the precise number of coffins, they just kinda shrug and go with it. Now, some people at that point would do just that; after all, they are screwed anyway, so who cares? But given how much the girls wanted answers at first, and how much they still crave them by the end, coupled with the fact that the four girls have radically different personalities, at least ONE of them should have asked those questions. It annoys me that those elements are seemingly introduced just to allude to something else going on, but really, if you took them away, you wouldn't lose a thing. They could have just left it at the Animus wanting to take out the other clan, and that's that. The girls never know more about how it started and why. And that would have been a more cohesive ending to me, because their unwillingness to answer questions later makes sense since they know the basic situation and there's nothing they can do to change it. But once you bring in hints about the "why in the world is there even a conflict, and who started it?" then you'd better have someone investigate those hints (unless you have one single protagonist that just really wouldn't do that and you're raising a point about that being a flaw in their character, or pointing out how that that lack of inquisitiveness either helps lead to or pull them out of their situation). Bringing that stuff in about the frozen ones and the coffins just seems to have absolutely no point! Unless it's to say that the girls are so accepting of their fates that they just don't care anymore, which doesn't work because they fear their fates to the end. And if the point was just "they're trying to accept their fates, as you can see here, but they aren't wholly successful as they obviously still do care," eh, well, I think there could have been a better way to achieve that without frustrating the audience by dangling those possible answers before them, and then not having them answered simply because the protagonists are indifferent.

Ehehe. This is becoming quite the sprawling debate! Good stuff. Though I do lament having it over text. It's much harder to articulate your ideas in the written form at times. Then again, it also allows you more time to think before you form a rebuttal, so there's good and bad there. In any event, it's good to know that there are some animes out there with real substance, and that there are also intelligent viewers. Ha! Fight that "anime is silly and vapid" stereotype! (Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying a silly, vapid anime. =D Just good to know there's variety.)

Ahaha I'm not particularly knowledgeable, one of my minors was in literature from the early gothic period so this is more like residual knowledge than anything else! It's a fascinating genre and the changes between different periods are particularly interesting. If you're ever interested in reading some books on the subject I'd recommend "Gothic" by Fred Botting (good introductory text), "Gothic and Gender" by Donna Heiland (what it says on the label), "Hollywood Heroines: Women in Film Noir and the Female Gothic Film" by Helen Hanson (great bit on "Rebecca") and "The Gothic Body: Sexuality, Materialism, and Degeneration at the Fin De Siecle" by Kelly Hurley (emphasis on 19th century stuff).

I don't disagree with you in regard to the emphasis on the commonplace elements of the girls' lives - their daily concerns certainly take up the majority of the series despite the encroaching supernatural. This seems to be a deliberate approach by the creators, something akin to creating even deeper disparity between the two worlds these girls inhabit (which is what makes their eventual acceptance so jarring). I agree that it lacks the seamless blending between atmospheres, though I can't help but wonder if that is deliberate too. As seminal as Udolpho is, it is similarly far from seamless (Emily switching between being useful and utterly useless depending on the situation springs to mind - oh gothic heroines).



I appreciate your frustration, though there's not a lot to contend about the answers they are given by the final third of the series. Bringing the original Animus and the coffins into things seems like a play for impact, particularly with regard to the futility of it all. These frozen lolis just want to die and they don't care how many reanimated girls they have to use to achieve this end. While I agree that it would have been interesting to see this investigated further, I'm not really sure if this would give us any substantial answers - or even if further answers are required. In becoming aware of the true nature of the Animus clan the girls are put in a position not too dissimilar from the one Lula has been in for most of the series. Knowing enough to know you're doomed, but not knowing enough to change anything. Would investigating further turn up greater knowledge about the clans? Perhaps, but it would likely prove useless - the series seems to relish the futility of all attempts to eliminate or fight against the curse. You can be dissatisfied with your fate but accepting of your inability to change it - which I think is about where the heroines ended up. Rather bleak, really. I liked the bleakness in the sense that they didn't wimp out and try for a happy ending, we were told two clans had to fight to the death and, well, they did. Was it a flawed conflict? Absolutely. If I had a chance to make the series for myself I would likely change several things, but I can still see why the producers went the way they did with most aspects of the show.

I'm enjoying having a discussion about something with a vague amount of depth ahaha! It's quite hard to accentuate tone when you're typing stuff like this out though. D: I hate sounding so dry but I don't want to toss too much silliness into a pleasant in-depth exchange. I tend to enjoy craptastic anime so Red Garden being genuinely interesting is a bit of a change for me.

Really interesting anime... One of the most original I've ever seen. 10/10 from me and I think it's one of my faves... but wait, there is one more episode, can't wait to see what'll happen xD I have some uncertain things in my mind, but I hope I'll understand them from the ova.

I like the ending. Really good series.

I like the ending. Really good series.

(0_0) What did I just watch?

More unanswered questions than a bludger's test paper. I'm very disappointed. The 2 factions could've just sat down and worked on a compromise. Most of them didn't have jack shit to do with what their ancestors did anyway.

The difficulty in compromising was that the one side basically had to lose no matter what. The way the curses were structured meant that it was a fight for survival only one side could truly win. The fact that the curse had nothing to do with the current generations is kind of the point? It's a residual conflict that is archaic in modern days but still brutally inescapable. The modern characters did not commit the sins and yet they are forced to pay for them anyway. I'd venture that this was one of the more clearly gothic aspects to the series (quite deliberately so) but I do understand your frustration - who wants to fight in a war that should have nothing to do with them?

mann good series- very sad but good 8/10
one more episode!!!
and i always hated herve but it was sad that he had to kill anna who he wanted to save so much.....

but herve and kate's relationship confused me when kate got kidnapped herve and emilio saved her but in this episode herve was so mean and determined to kill her

Ok, so I finished watching it, and I really was both happy...but then slightly saddened and annoyed by the ending. It didn't really leave at a cliff-hanger( Ex. Wolf's Rain) but the OVA explaining how they're still alive after centuries....that freaks me out! And it's sad. Herve and Lisa (girl who started it all basically) were still together, and I only wish they hadn't lost their darn memories! If they had to live forever then at least remember the 17 years before hand!....*sighs* now it makes me depressed.
But over-all, good series....still really annoying :P lol, they all change personalities in the OVA XD.

One of my new favorites. Watched it in two days.
The only other show I've marathoned like this was the 1st season of Jigoku Shoujo.

I just feel kinda empty after watching this, it'd be cool if they had more episodes showing how their lives went on >.>

The animation and just everything about this sets it apart from most animes and I really liked that.

Most worthless, pointless piece of crap anime i've watched... No wonder it took me 1 month to finish it...