Spotlight Anime: Akira MAL Anime Information Page: Akira MAL Score – 8.00 (by 16675 users) Ranked - #311 Popularity - #74 For the next week I would like to have a discussion about the anime that focuses on the key elements that we here on MAL use to critically rate an anime: Animation, Sound, Characters, Story, and Enjoyment. I would like everyone to approach this thread as if you were going to write a review and structure your initial post like this: Animation - insert rating Sound - insert rating Characters - insert rating Story - insert rating Enjoyment - insert rating Animation - discuss any pros and cons of the animation styling used in the series, try to include some specifics. Sound - describe any of the things you liked or didn't care for in regards to the music and sound effects used in the series etc... If you are having trouble writing up a review or coming up with specific pros and cons, please don't worry. Just do the best you can with it and if you can only write two or three sentences about any of the 5 elements then that's OK. Not everyone here is currently at a level which will allow them to articulate their thoughts and opinions. After your initial post is made you can feel free to civilly discuss issues of contention. I am sure there will be many opinions expressed here that some of us will disagree upon and criticise and it is for that reason that this entire club exists. So I hope everyone has fun and I am really looking forward to watching this discussion unfold. RESULTS OF THE YOU DECIDE POLL Akira was NOT inducted into the club Anime list: 36 Yes - 52.1% 33 No - 48.3% 34 Don't Know - 33.0% of the total number polled |
santetjanJul 20, 2009 9:38 AM
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| I'm still a criminal and did not watch it even though I own the DVD. I just need to find where it is. |
 Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| Historical importance aside, Akira is a great movie. The art/animation is waaaay ahead of its time. A lot better, in fact, than anime I see coming out nowadays. The fluidity is incredible, and the overall detail as well. It really created a unique atmosphere. Sound...shit, can't remember much. That's not to say it wasn't anything special. So idk, pretty sure it was decent. edit: actually I remember being impressed by the voice acting. Still don't remember the soundtrack though. The story was both simple and complex. Simple on the outside - boy gains psychic powers, and wreaks havoc Tokyo, and his best friend is the one to go against him. Of course, it goes a lot deeper than this. The reasoning behind his sudden psychotic behaviour upon gaining his powers being linked to a build up frustration from his past due to being often incompetent and in the shadow of his best friend. Furthermore, depth is added to the plot as the movie progresses, and more is revealed about how Tokyo got to the stage it was in, as well as the entity known as 'Akira', and who the shriveled up psychic kids were. Overall pacing was excellent, and there was a great balance between action, explosions, and the intricate plot that needed to be explained. The characters were well-developed; well, the main two (Tetsuo and the Kaneda) were. Tetsuo went through a dramatic change, detailing the impact a sudden gain of power can have on someone, especially when one has been without power all their life. Kaneda, on the other hand, was simply trying to stop Testsuo, and probably felt partially responsible for the way he was acting. The characters weren't exactly deep, however they were interesting and were relatively believable (when you consider the society they were living in). A very enjoyable movie overall. A lot of action, big explosions, mystery to keep you hooked, and stunning art. I'd vote it in for the impact it had on anime internationally, but it just so happens I can vote it in for the movie itself. |
simo000Jul 13, 2009 6:41 PM
| Shitsux. Boring, stupid, gross for no reason, bad storytelling, Tetsuo's the only good character, doesn't make much sense in the end, a complete waste of time. If you like this you are casual. |
I remember liking this movie, although the ending sequence does seem reminiscent of 2001: A Space Odyssey. Considering how long ago I saw it, I may need to see it again to try to see what you meant, BigSimo. In the end, I felt this movie was alright. Although, I might blame reaction this considering the time I watched it, which was maybe, a year or two ago instead of the around time the movie was out on VHS in the states. Then again, I would be 4 years old at the time; not exactly the proper age for seeing such a thing. |
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| In a sense, SLiK's post above is a prelude to my own. Akira is perhaps the perfect example of a show that falls into the 'classic' trap: back then, it was a phenomenon, but now it's so-so at best. So, should we rate with the benefit of hindsight or should we take its own time frame into account? Although I cannot speak for any other part of 'the West' than my own little corner of the world, when Akira appeared it created something of a hype. Here was something new, different, mature and gritty, an animated film that was definitely not for kids, holding both graphic violence and deep realisations. Even around the time when I first watched it, around '93 (still a few years before GitS and Evangelion, which would take over its fame), Akira was something that every teenage boy like myself knew was totally atomic, without anyone having that much of an idea of what it in fact was. Finding the manga somewhere was an amazing experience, even if I could hardly read a word of English at the time: it was something completely different from the faux intellectualism of French comic books and the too far gone American ones. In fact, when the movie first appeared on television over here it was preceded by a TV-personality providing an introduction on what anime was, how Japanese animation differed from Western, how this was a wholly mature film and what deep insights could be found on it, and how this was certainly a piece of art, and not so much simply an action film. A question would be: was all the hype at the time when it came out justified? In a specific sense, yes; that specific sense being that it came out at exactly the right time. Remember, these were the 80s, with its plethora of teenage rebels who had a distinct dark side to them (not to mention the fact that Mad Max had shown us that biker gangs were totally wicked), its fear and awe of the coming of the computer and the Net and its fascination with the possible powers to be gained from psychological and biological experiments. Remember, too, that it came out only two years after the end of the Silver Age of comic books, when, with the coming of Watchmen and the re-imagining of Batman, comics became dark and gritty and more mature (read: filled with graphic (pun intended) violence, swearing and pseudo-psychological babble), and that this was before Image blew the artistic focus to that other type of mature content (read: lots of skin and over-sized breasts). Akira was animation aimed at a mature population, without compromising the spectacular, as the few adult-oriented art-house animated films were wont to do. Did it matter that most of it was nonsense? Hell no, this was the time in which WarGames had provided the archetype of what computer science could do and Blade Runner had re-imagined science fiction. People didn't realise it was babble, or at least were used to it. Did it matter that the ending was even more of a mess than the plot as a whole? Hell no, things blew up spectacularly and with the necessary few moral undertones that made it science fiction for the educated few instead of action for the masses. It didn't hurt matters that the art was far better than almost anything else in the realm of animation at the time, both within and outside Japan, with a fluidity and attention to detail that was only matched by the largest studios. Moreover, when compared to much that was imported in its wake (and most of the titles that had had some shelf life in specialist stores before), the dub was of a high quality, making it far less of a pain to watch than most dubbed anime of the time. But what if we look at it with twenty extra years under our belt? Though clearly outdated, the graphics still hold up; and though the fluidity might be found lacking nowadays, it still retains its sense of speed. The characters and story, however, have fared significantly less. Kaneda in particular could be traded in for hundreds of others of underdeveloped, simplistic characters, while Tetsuo 'finally it's my turn' can't be called the height of originality either. And though we still expect rather a lot of pseudo-scientific and fanciful psychological drivel in our anime (Persona and Ghost Hound, anyone?), it doesn't mean that it's appreciated. I don't believe that the general anime-watching audience nowadays is more knowledgeable than it was (though Google has done a lot) - and we should also remember that Akira was intended for just the type of audience that is the standard audience of anime in the West - we have far less patience for sloppy storylines wherein too little attention is given to making it have a sound basis. It has also became painfully clear how much of a compression the anime is of the manga, even if the manga isn't the height of lucidity either. And biker gangs? They're about as Bad as some recently deceased 80s superstar really was. So what to make of it? In all, even when looking at the film at how it was perceived when it came out it is clear that most of its fame was entirely due to the fact that it really came out in the right time. It's still a fun film to watch, if you like these kinds of things and don't mind the fact that most of what was once labeled 'deep' is sheer nonsense, but it has its place next to other 80s action flicks, not to examples of art: being in the right place at the right time simply isn't enough for an induction. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| What is undeniable is that Akira is a classic. One of the most recognized and appreciated titles of all time by anime fans and nonfans alike, it is one of THE anime. But is it necessarily as good as people think? The art is. It holds its own even today, and I recently got a copy of the DVD just so I could WATCH it again. By watch, I mean look at. Akira has that 80's touch of hand-drawn-ness, and just looks sharp all around, enough that I enjoy sitting down and looking at the pretty pictures go by every once in a while. I honestly don't remember much about the music, and I never saw it in Japanese. But I do remember the excellent English cast, led by Joshua Seth (who will always remind me fondly of Digimon, as will any of the main cast from that show) as Tetsuo and Johnny Yong Bosch as Kaneda. This is one of the better dub casts I've seen, and they did a great job with Akira. Unfortunately, Akira falls apart where it matters - in the actual story it tries to tell. When I first watched it, I felt that there was something odd about the progression - like it was skipping around and blowing by things too quickly. When I later learned how long the manga was, and realized so long a series was compressed into a single film, it started to make sense why I thought that. The plot was all over the place. I have always had problems with things that try to rush, and Akira was no exception. I am still not entirely sure what was going on in that movie, and I am usually able to figure these things out after at worst the second watch (I've now seen Akira four times). It's not necessarily that it's too complex, either - there just aren't enough pieces there to completely put it together, and what does come together doesn't really make sense or is somewhat silly. A silly premise doesn't work in so serious an atmosphere as this (which is one of the things the film does well - create an atmosphere). The ending, while an astounding display of animation, seemed to come out of nowhere and I really didn't like it very much. While the show's characters were certainly not worthy of being added to this club's roster due to depth of uniqueness, they certainly served their purposes well and worked for what the movie needed. Nothing exceptional, but serviceable. They didn't necessarily add much to the movie, but were a vehicle (pun sort-of intended) with which to get things done. All in all, I did like Akira, but it certainly has its flaws in the story, and I don't think I'm even going to try to understand the plot until I finally get around to reading the manga (which won't be for a while, since I don't read much manga). This is an art movie in the sense that you watch it for the artwork. The way everything else is laid out here works best as a way to let the art show itself, and doesn't stand up nearly as well on its own. |
  The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
| I watched it in dub so 7/10 :D |
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| Akira fanboy for about 20 years now. It still holds the class even until today. Yeah, it is a masterpiece. |
| Haven't seen |
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| I will simply say this. If Akira didn't break the Western market for anime, then there's a good chance that shows like Cowboy Bebop would never have made it to the West, which in turn would mean no Samurai Champloo, no Clannad, no Aria (heaven forbid), etc, etc. Regardless of what you think if it in terms of animation, plot, characters, etc (Santetjan nailed these already), there is one undeniable fact that I feel outweighs all of those. It's thanks to Akira that we have so many shows to choose from. If that movie had never been released in the West, then the ensuing influx of anime would never have happened at that time (although it may have come later, but we're talking years), which is really what paved the way for things like fansubbing, etc. It's thanks to Akira that this site, and this club, even exists in the first place. Denying that fact simply because one doesn't like the animation, plot, characters, etc, is simply ignoring the debt that every anime you watch that was produced and released since then owes to that movie. Yes, as Santetjan says, it came around at the right time, but in addition to this, there was no other anime title like it at the time either. I'm loathe to label it as simply another 80s action flick, not because I find the storyline "deep" in any sense, but because it was far more thought out than the stereotypical 80s action flick. Other titles released in the wake of Akira? Macross 2: Lovers Again, Legend of the Overfiend, Top wo Nerae, Ambassador Magma, Guyver, Legend of the Four Kings, Dark Myth, etc, etc. Very few of the titles of that time were of any note, and whilst Akira may be a bit lacklustre nowadays, completely ignoring or downplaying the impact it had at the time it was released is more than a little unfair. That would be like comparing a Model T Ford to a Mercedes SLK. You know which one you'd rather own, but if the Model T hadn't made cars accessible to as many peopel as it did then, no one would be able to own an SLK now. @ rkempel Yes, I would seriously recommend it to anyone interested in anime, as I class the movie as a piece of anime history more than anything else. I don't think it's required viewing, but if someone wanted to watched something from that period then Akira would be my first suggestion. |
ArchaeonJul 14, 2009 1:06 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| Well, sorry for the not elaborate post, i didn't had the time before. I dn't know it it opened the doors to the west, perhaps to the US, but not to europe, because we had a very old appreaciation of anime with plenty of titles before Akira came. In my view I don't see it as dated as everyone tries to classify the movie, for me it's still impressive, and I do enjoy watching that animation more than I do enjoy lot's of nowadays eat and spit animation. The movie was a epic, classic, it was thought provoking, yeah it marked it's time, the theme was being brought in first hand at the time and there weren't many realistic movies like that around, but it still can be enjoyed nowadays with the same appreciation, I believe that. And I do also believe that the people that judge or they think they judge anime and only can have modern anime in their tops aren't anime lovers, or appreciators of art in general. In conclusion, I do not see this movie as just a piece of history, left alone in the past, I see it as a timeless classic. |
| I really think Akira has a better chance solely due to its influence rather than itself. It's more what it introduced that makes it a classic rather than what it was about. Akira was a sign that Japanese cartoons could be for adults, too, and gave anime a foothold in the West (in the U.S. anyway). Despite its imperfections, I am also considering voting yes for it for such external factors over the internal flaws. I'm going to have to think about it. We're trying to come up with shows that are "exemplary," and Akira certainly did set an example. |
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
| You're giving far too muchcredit to Akira Archaeon. So what if Akira never were? Then all the idiots who never saw an anime series in their lives would simply have another badly made, overhyped and overrated anime movie to gush about, and you'd be calling that the anime we all have to thank. |
| I don't quite understand what you're attempting to say here. If Akira never existed, then the "idiots," who have supposedly never seen an anime series in their lives, would have another anime to gush about? First of all, what would there be to gush about if Akira never existed? Second, how could these people have "another anime" to rave about if they had never been exposed to the medium? Are you trying to say that if Akira had never existed that anime would have simply continued on its same course with one less overrated movie under its belt? That's what I'm getting from your post, so I'll run with it. I will have to respectfully disagree with that point. While it is true that Akira is overhyped and overrated, it is also what introduced a great deal of now-fans to the medium of anime as more than your kid's cartoon shows. Roger Ebert gave the film a good deal of publicity by making it his Pick of the Week. Those who saw the film and were drawn in by its different-ness (because it was very different from most of what was there at the time, however overcompressed the plot may have been) and its edginess began to want more like it, and so they received more. And so anime became popular as its own medium in the US, beyond the Speed Racers and Astro Boys that had previously been playing on TV right alongside American cartoons. While it may not be THE reason anime has spread at all, Akira certainly gave a huge jump start to the movement. Granted, this alone is not reason enough to induct Akira into the club-related list, but I do believe that it is a factor to be considered. |
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
| If Akira never were, we would probabl be discussing something like an unedited original western release of Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, the original Ghost in the Shell, royal Space Force, or something else that was probably eclipsed by Akira on the count of it not being a gore- and violence fest. You're gravely mistaken if you think only Akira would have been able to popularise anime in the west (not that I think Ghost in the Shell is any good mind you). And why again are we treating Ebert as significant? |
| If Akira would never had been, GITS would probably never had been., as well as many other elaborated plotted movies that came after it. I'm picking on the influential part of the movie now, though I believe it can stand alone without it. |
| @ RobdeFR Being from Europe myself, the only anime movies that I can recall even hearing about from the same time period were Laputa and Barefoot Gen. After Akira though, there was suddenly a whole glut of anime titles available. @ Bokusatchi I quite agree. Much of the anime released prior to Akira was very much oriented at children (with a noted exception in Barefoot Gen - however even that never really gained any sort of exposure), and it wasn't until Akira that people began to realise that anime wasn't just "cartoons for kids". @ Dozer The simple fact is Dozer, that Akira was the anime that had the most influence on the western market at the time. Not Laputa, even though it's better. Not Royal Space Force, nor Macross, nor Barefoot Gen, nor any other of a host of titles I could name. Akira was the show in the public eye, and Akira was the movie that broke the Western market for "mature" anime. Even though more adult oriented anime had been available in japan prior to Akira's release, it never really saw the light of day in the West. Let's put it another way. Whilst Laputa, Nausicaa, Starblazers, Macross, etc, etc, all garnered their share of fans, those numbers numbers pale in comparison to the sheer number of people who turned to anime after watching Akira. Sales figures of anime titles from that time confirm this fact, as people went out searching for what would be the next "Akira" - which ironically enough was supposed to have been Ghost in the Shell (which again, may not have been made as the majority of the production team were employed because of their work on Akira - if Akira didn't exist, then neither would Ghost in the Shell). I think you're being very naive in your comments Dozer, as history and the facts confirm that Akira was one of the most influential anime ever released, and effectively paved the way for anime as we have it today. That still doesn't mean it's a quality show, but it does mean that simply living in denial just because you don't like the show only makes you look silly. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| The only impact Akira had was on the western market, and it's only because it was an easily digastible piece of hogwash that most popele who saw didn't even understood. All the other movies simply weren't as commercial. As I said, if it never were, something else would have garnered all of the attention of the western viewers, even if it would have been a smaller amount of attention, and some other group of people would have worked on Ghost in the Shell. You don't seriously think Akira had anything to do with Shirow's creative process, do you? |
| Actually Otomo Katsuhiro heavily influenced Shirow in many ways, one of them being the production of the Akira movie. Shirow had a hand in choosing who worked on GitS, and it was because of the impact Akira had on the Japanese studios themselves that he chose almost all of the team that worked on Akira. If you compare the style, animation, etc, of Akira to other movies and series of the time, you'll see there's a very clear difference, not simply because of the more muted colours or darker tones, but in the movement and animation as well. You seem to be operating under the impression that Shirow isn't influenced by anything - a gross misconception. Otomo was the "king of anime" after Akira, so every creator nabbed ideas off him. Yes, it is easily digestible, but I will tell you right now, and very clearly, there was nothing else around at that time that could have had the same impact. By the time you got to watch the movie the world of anime was already very different to what we grew up with, and that's the point of all of this really. Akira is the only title of that time that appealed to the mass market, and stating that something else would have come along to garner attention is simply displaying your naivety. We didn't have the net then, or DVDs. There was nothing much in the way of fansubs, and anime as a whole was generally viewed as the province of children. Akira changed the whole ball game, and denying that fact is, as I said before, very silly. Let me put it another way Dozer. You weren't even born when Akira was released, and whilst that doesn't exclude you from having an opinion, it may help you to research your topic a little bit more as some of us were there when the movie came out, and we saw firsthand the impact it had. After all, I can remember the BBCs most respected film critic Barry Norman talking about the movie, and advising his audience that it was an experience like no other. I remember it being the first anime movie to be broadcast on one of the main UK channels (Channel 4), after the 9 o'clock watershed. I remember lots of things about the movie, but the most notable was the fact that HMV, prior to Akira, had no anime titles whatsoever, yet afterwards it had more than you could shake a stick at. Coincidence? I don't think so. |
ArchaeonJul 15, 2009 10:05 AM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Dozer said: Yeah, what I was going for there was an example of how word of Akira had spread around enough to garner attention from critics and so I used a well-known critic who enjoyed the film as an example. True, it may have worked better as an example for why I should not try to make a coherent argument at 3 in the morning (you should have seen the one I wisely avoided leaving here at 5), but nonetheless, it earned acclaim from critics for being different from anything else on the market. Barry Norman is likely a better example here.And why again are we treating Ebert as significant? Dozer said: Disregarding that there is a distinct reason that Shirow hired most of the team from Akira to work on his movie, even if Ghost in the Shell was made without Akira, and did break the market, it would have happened at least seven years later. In the entertainment industry, that's a pretty long time.The only impact Akira had was on the western market, and it's only because it was an easily digastible piece of hogwash that most popele who saw didn't even understood. All the other movies simply weren't as commercial. As I said, if it never were, something else would have garnered all of the attention of the western viewers, even if it would have been a smaller amount of attention, and some other group of people would have worked on Ghost in the Shell. You don't seriously think Akira had anything to do with Shirow's creative process, do you? I have also made an Excel spreadsheet (I'm a nerd, sue me) of every anime series/movie that I have either completed or plan to complete and what month and year they came out. While I admit that I do not have Barefoot Gen or any of the Macross/Gundam/Astro Boy/other older sci-fi stuff on there (and probably should), every single title listed before Akira is a Ghibli film, most of them Miyazaki. Let's face it, a Ghibli film is not the best way to show that anime can transcend its roots as children's stories. It's very easy to look at a movie like Castle in the Sky and pass it off as just another kiddie movie. Macross and Gundam were about giant robots fighting in space. Again, very easy to blow over. Akira was among the first signs to the world that anime was serious business. Even if there are better titles in other areas that were around at the time, there were none in the vein of Akira, no dark, clearly mature titles that powered through the "anime is for kids" stereotype of the time. And that is just what anime needed. It's just like what Evangelion and Ghost in the Shell did for anime in the 90's, only to a much more infant industry. Whether you like the film or not, it's hard to deny the influence it had. |
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
| I'm not going to give a full reply to you, BokuSatchii, because: 1. You still haven't deleted that Excel spreadsheet yet, even though you have an account on MAL. and 2. You think Akira is so mature it's the flagship of the mediums capability. You don't get it Archaeon. If Akira would come out now, it would be laughed at because it's so bad. It only made a splash back then because there was nothing the west could compare it to. I'm completely sure that if Akira never were, and I'm repeating myself here, something else would have come. And wether it would have been better or worse than Akira would have in no means mattered, because there is nothing that Akira did for anime and manga as a medium. With or without Akira, there would hardly be a difference in the kind of stories coming out of Japan. And if you think about it, anime didn't become a household thing until Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z and Pokémon came around. Fuck it, even Evangelion doesn't matter that much in this regard. |
| I have the spreadsheet because MAL has no feature to let me look at relative release dates at a glance (and because I was bored one summer weekend, but that's not really relevant, nor is the fact that I have one in the first place). That's all the spreadsheet does, and I actually made it out of curiosity after getting my MAL account. I also enjoy your little quip about my belief in Akira being the "flagship of the medium's capability." It's really fun to watch arguments degenerate to personal attacks. Either way, I'd like to make a few things clear in this regard. I do not think that Akira was the best anime out at the time (any of the aforementioned Miyazaki films would qualify here, Nausicaa in particular). I do not think Akira is one of the best examples of what anime can be. I do not even think that it is all that superb of a movie. It is certainly not the pinnacle of maturity in the medium (although it was arguably close at the time and definitely inspired many increasingly mature titles with its popularity), and even if it were, a title's maturity is not what designates it as being capable (just look at Elfen Lied). Not to mention that my own personal opinions on the matter have little to do with whether Akira made a bang in the industry or not, but I'm not going to go any further down that road. Now, if Akira were to come out now in its current state, it would in no way be as welcome, precisely because so many other things have taken from it and improved upon it. It would also be a completely different movie were it made now, with updated animation and a more modernized style (which, incidentally, may have given it more depth). You say it only made a splash because there was nothing to compare it to. That is exactly why it made a splash. There was nothing like it. If a movie comes out now that is different from other movies, and it makes a lot of money, filmmakers will doubtlessly try to imitate what made it so successful. This is just what happened. It did do something for anime and manga as a medium. It is no coincidence that there was nothing like it at the time, and then multiple things like it immediately afterward. The entertainment industry plays off of financial successes, and Akira was a financial success. It did make a difference in the stories coming from Japan, just as the high grosses of comic book movies in the US led to a summer jam-packed with superhero films last year. Dozer said: Okay, so suppose something else did come, and suppose that it had the same impact as Akira, and since it "doesn't matter," suppose it was worse than Akira. What would we have then? We wouldn't be having this discussion about Akira, we'd be talking about Bakira or whatever this other title would be called, saying the same thing.I'm completely sure that if Akira never were, and I'm repeating myself here, something else would have come. And wether it would have been better or worse than Akira would have in no means mattered, because there is nothing that Akira did for anime and manga as a medium. Even with Akira, as you said, anime did not become a household thing until the mid 90's. Let's again suppose that Akira never happened. When would the "something else" that anime needed be introduced to the west? How long would it take to enter the households after that title was released? You're placing way too much faith in this magical "something else" that is purely hypothetical and about which nobody knows anything, while ignoring the reality of what Akira did accomplish. And to end on somewhat of a tangent, what if something could be recognized as exceptional or influential because of or in spite of its easy digestability? Because we all know that Cowboy Bebop (or I guess Trigun because you haven't seen Bebop) is so hard to digest. |
BokuSatchiiJul 15, 2009 9:21 PM
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
| Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression we were voting a title for its merits alone, and not for how influential it is. Do I think everyone who considers himself a fan of anime should watch this? - Yes. Case in point: I myself have only heard about this and seen bits and pieces. But I only watched it in full last week. And I felt the need to partly to educate myself. Should everyone who considers himself a fan of anime watch this? - Based solely on the merits of the movie, no. As an education and for historical value, yes. Do I think it should be inducted into the club because I believe it's a must-see for various reasons (none of which is it's strength in storytelling)? - No. I thought this was a critic's club, not an essentials club. Does it stand the test of time? - As someone who has only recently seen it in its entirety, I'd have to say yes and no. Technically, it's still better than most out there today. It also tries to say a lot in terms of societal/cultural/religious issues which most out there today hardly bother to touch on. Where does it fall apart? At the end when it fails to tie things together into a coherent, well-devised story. It went the way of "here let's do this big bang of an ending and to hell with the plot/story". Not the best course of action. And don't defend it by saying the manga tells the story better. I've never read the manga. That is not a valid excuse for a movie adaptation to be bad. |
mochaholicJul 15, 2009 9:26 PM
mochaholic said: That's not necessarily true. We're voting on anime that are worthy of being "critically acclaimed", and influence is something that falls under that category.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression we were voting a title for its merits alone, and not for how influential it is. This anime should be a no-brainer for induction. It's got visuals so far ahead of its time people will still be picking their eyeballs off the floor when they watch it in 2063. The creepy-ambient-tribal-what-the-fuck soundtrack is so weird that it has to be artistic. Plus it's got a fuckton of layers (just go ask Beatnik. He wrote a college thesis on the movie. Dude will set you straight). And if your mind can't wrap itself around all those higher-brain-levels of awesome, it's got a badass story about driving motorcycles, psychic powers, and killing mutants with lazers. If Akira isn't in your top 3 anime movies, then you're probably some loser who thinks Grenadier is God's greatest gift to mankind. |
naikouJul 15, 2009 10:37 PM
naikou said: mochaholic said: That's not necessarily true. We're voting on anime that are worthy of being "critically acclaimed", and influence is something that falls under that category.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression we were voting a title for its merits alone, and not for how influential it is. This anime should be a no-brainer for induction. It's got visuals so far ahead of its time people will still be picking their eyeballs off the floor when they watch it in 2063. The creepy-ambient-tribal-what-the-fuck soundtrack is so weird that it has to be artistic. Plus it's got a fuckton of layers (just go ask Beatnik. He wrote a college thesis on the movie. Dude will set you straight). And if your mind can't wrap itself around all those higher-brain-levels of awesome, it's got a badass story about driving motorcycles, psychic powers, and killing mutants with lazers. If Akira isn't in your top 3 anime movies, then you're probably some loser who thinks Grenadier is God's greatest gift to mankind. Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a fucking idiot, a cancer to this club, who not only comes at you with some sort of fictional college thesis of a shitty anime (in other words, lies about it), but also thinks that said shitty anime deserves to be ranked among the best ones ever. Now keep in mind that this person considers "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" one of the greatest pieces of anime ever made, and is menace to society who laughs at the computer- club scene and thinks Suzumiya Haruhi is a likable character. Truly, it says something about the people who like Akira, doesn't it? Bokusatchii, it appears I'm going to have to constantly repeat myself to you, so please grow some brains as I am not exactly enjoying doing it. It's not that Akira was something never done before, it was something ignorant western people never saw before. See, it wasn't successfull because it was good, it was successfull because it simply "was", no different than Twilight. It didn't do anything that wasn't done before, and hardly influenced anything that came out after it. Besides, we've already established that it's crap, so why should it get in just because people who didn't know better liked it? With or without it, the global spreading of anime and manga and the titles that are coming out of Japan would be no different. |
| I refuse to glorify your self-righteous insults of your opponents with any further response than this sentence, however much I may want to nitpick about your own personal tastes in specific anime other than the one being discussed (I'm talking to you too, naikou) and call you naughty names as you seem to take pleasure in doing. Ignoring your first two paragraphs and most of the first sentence of your third, you actually had yet to mention that something similar to Akira had been done before until this point. As such, I ask you now, what? What was this show that we westerners were so ignorant of? I'd like to add it to my watch list, and perhaps even nominate it for the club. You could even shut me up about Akira's originality if you can provide one. I'm not going to comment on your Twilight comparison, because I cannot even begin to see where you're coming from with that argument. To say that it hardly influenced anything after it is also a falsehood; we have the example just above of Ghost in the Shell, which in turn went on to influence more anime and was also highly acclaimed around the world. We also did not establish that it is crap, we established that it is not the best movie ever made and that it suffers from unclear storytelling and an ending that fails to effectively tie things up. If that alone is grounds for being crap, then I propose we remove Evangelion from our related list at once (bad Satchii! Don't make fun of other series!). It seems I am going to have to repeat to you that the spread of anime and manga would certainly be very different had it not been for Akira. I have made my reasons for saying this clear, and even in the scenario that it was the fault of the "ignorant western people" who liked it, the fact that they liked it led to the movement to which I have already many times referred. I think it should get in because it was an exemplary movie. Unique in its time (unless I am proven otherwise), well-animated, addressing more mature themes than most other titles of the age, it is an example of what good anime should do - add something new and influential to the medium. I said it is not the best of its time, and agree that its superiors definitely deserve to be placed on the club list, but it was still a very, very good one for its era. It left a legacy and set an example for other anime to follow. What better way to describe this than exemplary? |
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
BokuSatchii said: Ignoring your first two paragraphs and most of the first sentence of your third, you actually had yet to mention that something similar to Akira had been done before until this point. As such, I ask you now, what? What was this show that we westerners were so ignorant of? I'd like to add it to my watch list, and perhaps even nominate it for the club. You could even shut me up about Akira's originality if you can provide one. I dunno', but there must be something. I really can't care about sci- fi, and Akira couldn't have been the first sci- fi story to come out of Japan. That would be detrimental to the genre... Bokusatchii said: I'm not going to comment on your Twilight comparison, because I cannot even begin to see where you're coming from with that argument. Twilight did nothing to deserve it's popularity, and neither did Akira. BokuSatchii said: To say that it hardly influenced anything after it is also a falsehood; we have the example just above of Ghost in the Shell, which in turn went on to influence more anime and was also highly acclaimed around the world. Didn't you pay attention to the thread? The only thing Akira influenced about Ghost in the Shell was who did the work on the movie! Masamune Shirow would have drawn that piece of trash regardless if Akira was ever made or not! BokuSatchii said: We also did not establish that it is crap, we established that it is not the best movie ever made and that it suffers from unclear storytelling and an ending that fails to effectively tie things up. If that alone is grounds for being crap, then I propose we remove Evangelion from our related list at once (bad Satchii! Don't make fun of other series!). I don't know why I'm even bothering responding to you. Anybody who is too stupid to appreciate the last two episodes of Evangelion shouldn't really be in this club, let alone be conversatring with me. BokuSatchii said: It seems I am going to have to repeat to you that the spread of anime and manga would certainly be very different had it not been for Akira. I have made my reasons for saying this clear, and even in the scenario that it was the fault of the "ignorant western people" who liked it, the fact that they liked it led to the movement to which I have already many times referred. You did no such thing and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop lying. BokuSatchii said: I think it should get in because it was an exemplary movie. Unique in its time (unless I am proven otherwise), well-animated, addressing more mature themes than most other titles of the age, it is an example of what good anime should do - add something new and influential to the medium. I said it is not the best of its time, and agree that its superiors definitely deserve to be placed on the club list, but it was still a very, very good one for its era. It left a legacy and set an example for other anime to follow. What better way to describe this than exemplary? Again, if it would have been good, if it would have set an example, if it would have been influental to the medium, it would be examplary. BUT IT IS NONE OF THOSE THINGS AND THEREFORE IT ISN'T WORTHY OF BEING INDUCTED! |
Dozer said: The only impact Akira had was on the western market This one sentence proves you have no idea about what you're talking about Dozer. Akira was insanely popular at the time, and successfully crossed into Western Mainstream - the first anime to successfully do so. You can talk about your Sailor Moons, Dragonballs, Pokemons, etc, till the cows come home, but the one thing you're forgetting is that these did not make anime a household word. What they did do was make Japanese styled cartoons for kids rather popular, but "anime" as a term really entered Western society years before - with Akira, and until the influx of anime into the West began to produce some good titles, the term anime remained mostly unused. Also, you're ignoring market forces, and a whole heap of other things that happened in the wake of Akira's success. Bokusatchi and myself have already touched on some of those points - studio influence being a prime issue. Dozer said: As I said, if it never were, something else would have garnered all of the attention of the western viewers Prove it. Remember that you're talking to someone who has firsthand knowledge of what you're trying to argue about. When I say there was nothing like Akira around at the time, I mean just that. There wasn't anything like it prior to it's release either, so let's just clear that up too shall we. Dozer said: and some other group of people would have worked on Ghost in the Shell. Really? Would Shirow, who is known to be notoriously perfectionist, have accepted another team without the experience of making Akira? Would GitS have even been released at the time it was? I think not. Akira pioneered several animation techniques that are still used today, and it was the experience of making Akira that had Shirow itching to get his hands on those animators. The only other studio capable of producing GitS to a good degree of quality was Ghibli, and can you imagine how that version would have been (although we may have got the character of Kusanagi Totoro, which would have been oddly surreal). Dozer said: You don't seriously think Akira had anything to do with Shirow's creative process, do you? Once again, proving you have no idea what you're arguing about. I've said this to you so many times before Dozer - prove you arguments. It's well documented that Shirow sought advice from Otomo during the production of GitS, and this was purely because of the impact Akira had on him. Dozer said: See, it wasn't successfull because it was good, it was successfull because it simply "was", no different than Twilight. It didn't do anything that wasn't done before, and hardly influenced anything that came out after it. Do you actually listen to yourself when you argue? That is possibly the most useless argument anyone's ever come up with. I spat my coffee out whilst reading it, as my feelings about Twilight and Stephanie Meyer are very well known (and involve much medievalness). You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Dozer said: With or without it, the global spreading of anime and manga and the titles that are coming out of Japan would be no different. LOL - again, proving you have no idea what you're talking about. Face it. You've brought some good arguments to the table, but the fact is that we're not talking about what may have happened, but what did happen. Akira did break the Western market, and open the door to all other "mature" anime. It was unique at the time, as no other movie or series covered the same things it did, or had the same style and tone it did, or the same quality of animation and sound, or the same type of characters, etc, etc. If you can actually prove me wrong on this (and I seriously doubt you will, however I'm always willing to be surprised), then I'll take my hat off to you sir. Akira did heavily influence much of the anime market, both in Japan and the West, and still does even today. You can talk about the "next" Bebop/Champloo/Evangelion/Trigun/Haruhi/etc, till the end of the world, but what every studio really wants is to make the next Akira. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| Still haven't watched the movie (got the dubbed version and I have to pay more attention to words in the English dub so I had to re-download it) but I want to add that 1. I don't see the relevance of bashing Haruhi in a thread about Akira 2. I believe that the influence and uniqueness of an anime at its time is a very important factor of decision. And now I'm off to ask my father (who, like any father, knows everything and is always right) what did he think about the movie. That, for me, will be my main factor of evaluation. xD |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
Archaeon said: This one sentence proves you have no idea about what you're talking about Dozer. Akira was insanely popular at the time, and successfully crossed into Western Mainstream - the first anime to successfully do so. You can talk about your Sailor Moons, Dragonballs, Pokemons, etc, till the cows come home, but the one thing you're forgetting is that these did not make anime a household word. What they did do was make Japanese styled cartoons for kids rather popular, but "anime" as a term really entered Western society years before - with Akira, and until the influx of anime into the West began to produce some good titles, the term anime remained mostly unused. The fact that the term entered western society means nothing. What is important is that the anime community without which MAL wouldn't exist was formed by those said three shows, and Akira had nothing to do with it. Archaeon said: Prove it. Remember that you're talking to someone who has firsthand knowledge of what you're trying to argue about. When I say there was nothing like Akira around at the time, I mean just that. There wasn't anything like it prior to it's release either, so let's just clear that up too shall we. I'm not going to plow through the releases of that time. Something other than Akira probably. Something that was scrapped because of Akira, probably. Something definitely would have gave. Archaeon said: Really? Would Shirow, who is known to be notoriously perfectionist, have accepted another team without the experience of making Akira? Would GitS have even been released at the time it was? I think not. Akira pioneered several animation techniques that are still used today, and it was the experience of making Akira that had Shirow itching to get his hands on those animators. The only other studio capable of producing GitS to a good degree of quality was Ghibli, and can you imagine how that version would have been (although we may have got the character of Kusanagi Totoro, which would have been oddly surreal). Once again, you are jarringly shortsited. Do you honestly believe that the animation techniques Akira utilised took Akira to discover? Do you honestly think that nothing would have ever used them unless Akira was made? Seriously, do you think that? Archaeon said: Once again, proving you have no idea what you're arguing about. I've said this to you so many times before Dozer - prove you arguments. It's well documented that Shirow sought advice from Otomo during the production of GitS, and this was purely because of the impact Akira had on him. Rather than me proving my arguements for a nonexistent debate topic, you should check what I'm talking about. (Hint: Archaeon said: Do you actually listen to yourself when you argue? That is possibly the most useless argument anyone's ever come up with. I spat my coffee out whilst reading it, as my feelings about Twilight and Stephanie Meyer are very well known (and involve much medievalness). You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Oh I do, as opposed to you. All you are saying in this paragraph is that you have read Twilight. Which better not be true because there is no excuse for that. Archaeon said: LOL - again, proving you have no idea what you're talking about. As opposed to you, who constantly makes logacally infallibe arguements, I presume? Archaeon said: Face it. You've brought some good arguments to the table, but the fact is that we're not talking about what may have happened, but what did happen. Akira did break the Western market, and open the door to all other "mature" anime. It was unique at the time, as no other movie or series covered the same things it did, or had the same style and tone it did, or the same quality of animation and sound, or the same type of characters, etc, etc. If you can actually prove me wrong on this (and I seriously doubt you will, however I'm always willing to be surprised), then I'll take my hat off to you sir. It appears I'm going to have to spell this out for you in all caps because you just don't seem to understand it: IT'S IMPACT IS NOT IMPORTANT! WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS WETHER IT'S GOOD OR NOT, AND IT IS ONLY UPON THAT CRITERIA ANYTHING SHOULD BE JUDGED! IT'S INFLUENCE CAN GO FUCK ITSELF AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MAKE FOR GOOD ENTERTAINMENT, EITHER TODAY OR THE DAY IT WAS RELEASED! Archaeon said: Akira did heavily influence much of the anime market, both in Japan and the West, and still does even today. You can talk about the "next" Bebop/Champloo/Evangelion/Trigun/Haruhi/etc, till the end of the world, but what every studio really wants is to make the next Akira. Lol that's easy to disprove. If what you said was true, there would be no more good anime. ladyxzeus said: 1. I don't see the relevance of bashing Haruhi in a thread about Akira Oh, it's just that that dipshit naioku was talking shit about my taste, so I had to get him to know what for. |
| Man, I still remember when I watched the trailer of Akira at the time in a Spanish channel, those bike scenes remained in my memory forever, that animation quality was amazing. Well, I mainly agree with everything Archaeon and Satchii said, I couldn't say it better and in a very patiently way as they did. Cheers to you folks. Dozer, you should research a little more before making some statements, that way you wouldn't make fun of yourself. |
| Much of what I could possibly say on the issue has been already mentioned. Let me just (once again) quote what, to my idea, are the prevailing methods of looking at the 'why' of inclusion: mochaholic said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression we were voting a title for its merits alone, and not for how influential it is. naikou said: That's not necessarily true. We're voting on anime that are worthy of being "critically acclaimed", and influence is something that falls under that category. Both arguments are, to my mind, equally valid and it is true that nowhere it is exactly stated for what reasons something is to be considered worthy of inclusion. All that is mentioned in the club's description is that it must concern 'quality shows that are exemplary either within genre or universally' and that nominations should concern 'series that [members] believe [are] of particularly high quality'. I still believe that the 'classic trap' is a valid problem, as it is simply unfair to either judge something on standards that no longer apply or judge something on modern standards it, being older, could not possibly reach in a technical sense. Meaning, to put it succinctly, that the above distinction of inclusion criteria will continue to apply. What can be commented upon is on whether the hype surrounding a classic, in this case Akira, is justified. As has been mentioned by Archaeon, this was something new, something completely unknown to Western audiences at the time. However, we may ask why it was unknown and why this, and not some other example, was brought over. Sometimes it's simply luck: a show for no discernible reason at all is brought over in a gamble and becomes a massive hit. In the case of Akira, I remain convinced that the time was right and that, whether the importers knew it or not, they might the exact right decision to bring over Akira and not something else. Were there alternatives for a more adult, darker show to bring over? Certainly. Nausicaa has been mentioned. Wings of Honneamise was aimed at a quintessentially mature audience. LoGH would have had at least a cult following in the space opera boom that followed in the wake of Star Wars (and again after The Empire Strikes Back). Undoubtedly, there is more. And while Akira was certainly among the top of the class back then, it does not have the lasting appeal that the other three mentioned shows have (though we could squabble over this, of course). None of those would likely have had the effect Akira had, just as what happened with NGE (GitS has been quite rightly often named, but it was far less of a phenomenon than either Akira or NGE were (and by the way, few franchises have a greater lapse between source manga and produced anime than GitS, so it is certainly permissible to talk about GitS the film in its own right, completely disregarding the manga)). I can only assume that Akira was the Walkman of anime, versus the Stereobelt that the others would have been. It is because of this that I believe the 'critically acclaimed' argument might not be overly convincing in this case. Just like with NGE, luck seems to have had much to do with the hype: sure it was 'critically acclaimed', but that had more to do with the fact that what was present beyond it was simply not good than with Akira itself being a qualitative Titanic or not. It is interesting to note, though, that the BBC seems to have had exactly the same reaction as national television had here and in Belgium, meaning that the Akira phenomenon clearly transcended the anime niche. I find myself rather curious as to what ladyxzeus's father (being always in the right that he is) has to say, just to know what reactions to the film were in other parts of the world. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| @ Dozer I'll simply say this - the Western anime community existed before the likes of Sailor Moon, Dragonball, etc. Akira was responsible for the sudden rise in the community, and the explosion of anime in the West. This can easily be confirmed by looking at the related media of the time (Manga Mania, AnimeUK, etc). Sailor Moon and the like didn't get a look in until a few years later. As for animation techniques, as I said before, compare Akira to other titles of that time and you'll see a very clear difference - including the Ghibli movies. Dozer said: As opposed to you, who constantly makes logacally infallibe arguements, I presume? Strange. I'm backing up my arguments with evidence. Where's your proof? As for impact, ignoring such is simply is simply showing that because you dislike the movie you want to marginalise the effect it had - very childish of you I feel. Regardless of how good or bad it was, the fact remains that it had far greater impact than just about any other title on our relations list. It amy be as Santetjan says, that it was simply in the right place at the right time, but even were that the case, it would still get a yess from me as a simple acknowledgement of the fact that it did kickstart the Western anime community. Oh, and using foul language was never a good way to win an argument :) With regards to Twilight, I read the first two chapters, skimmed the rest and then gave the book to charity, with an oath that should I ever meet Stephanie Meyer I would sue her for the lost 15 minutes of my life. As for Shirow and GitS, it's as Santetjan says. There's such a long period of time between the manga and anime that the movie can be considered in it's own right. Finally, there's plenty of "good" anime out there. Your problem is simply that you don't want to acknowledge, for whatever reasons you may have, that something actually has some appeal or impact. A very narrow-minded position I must say, and very tedious as well. @ Santetjan Aye, the Akira phenomenon certainly broke the "cartoons are for kids" mould here in the UK. Much of the critical acclaim came about simply because it was new and inventive, and compared to much of the anime around nowadays, the movie doesn't hold up too well. That said, one still has to wonder how different the anime scene would be had Akira never been made. Dozer maintains that something else would have opened the doors, but I believe that would have taken quite a few more years to happen given what was around at the time. |
ArchaeonJul 16, 2009 8:28 AM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| RobdeFR, you should shut up, that way you won't make you'reself unwanted. Archaeon said: I'll simply say this - the Western anime community existed before the likes of Sailor Moon, Dragonball, etc. Akira was responsible for the sudden rise in the community, and the explosion of anime in the West. This can easily be confirmed by looking at the related media of the time (Manga Mania, AnimeUK, etc). Sailor Moon and the like didn't get a look in until a few years later. You mean all the nonexistent released media? Anime didn't explode in the west until the late nineties, way after Akira was released. archaeon said: I'm backing up my arguments with evidence. Uh, no, you aren't. Archaeon said: Oh, and using foul language was never a good way to win an argument :) I'm just trying to get my point across to you, not that it would reach you mind you. Archaeon said: As for impact, ignoring such is simply is simply showing that because you dislike the movie you want to marginalise the effect it had - very childish of you I feel. Regardless of how good or bad it was, the fact remains that it had far greater impact than just about any other title on our relations list. It may be as Santetjan says, that it was simply in the right place at the right time, but even were that the case, it would still get a yess from me as a simple acknowledgement of the fact that it did kickstart the Western anime community. Judging something based on impact is stupid. If it isn't good, then regardless of impact, it should not make it. Archaeon said: With regards to Twilight, I read the first two chapters, skimmed the rest and then gave the book to charity, with an oath that should I ever meet Stephanie Meyer I would sue her for the lost 15 minutes of my life. I was worried about you for a moment... Archaeon said: Your problem is simply that you don't want to acknowledge, for whatever reasons you may have, that something actually has some appeal or impact Wrong, the inverse is true. You are incapable of understanding that something may not have any sort of appeal whatsoever to other people. And that's sort of baffling. |
| How arrogant can still be this little prick? That's it, I'm leaving this club. Internet "behind the keybord all mighty" Kids like Dozer makes me want to forget about anime forums and MAL clubs. Good luck for the rest of you guys. |
| Good riddannce, loser! |
Dozer said: You mean all the nonexistent released media? Anime didn't explode in the west until the late nineties, way after Akira was released. *SIGH* How little thy knowest my friend. I have issues of several manga and anime related magazines that date back to the time of Akira's release - long before the explosion in the Nineties. Look up the history of Manga Entertainment and you'll see what I mean, as they were the ones to release Akira to the Western market in 1991.They founded the Manga Club (of which I was a member), and went on to release Manga Mania magazine as the newsletter was getting too large. It seems that we in Europe were a couple of years ahead of you guys in the US though :) Oh, and so we're clear, the likes of Sailor Moon didn't start hitting our shores until the mid 90s - quite a while after Akira was released. The reason why they were successful was because there was already a growing anime and manga community. I wonder where that community came from, or how it got started... Dozer said: Judging something based on impact is stupid. If it isn't good, then regardless of impact, it should not make it. In the case of something like Akira, I would deem impact a neccesity when looking at the movie as a whole. Ignoring this is simply the same as disliking something "because it's too popular", and simply proves you can't justify your arguments. Dozer said: Wrong, the inverse is true. You are incapable of understanding that something may not have any sort of appeal whatsoever to other people. And that's sort of baffling. Erm, did I miss something? I quite accept that you don't think the movie is "all that". What I disagree with is marginalising the impact it had simply because you don't like it, and then making up excuses as to why we should all ignore its impact. Childishness in extremis. |
ArchaeonJul 16, 2009 12:29 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Dozer said: Please don't make claims about how something must have been without being able to provide an example of this thing that must have been.I dunno', but there must be something. I really can't care about sci- fi, and Akira couldn't have been the first sci- fi story to come out of Japan. That would be detrimental to the genre... Dozer said: I did appreciate the last two episodes. They were interesting, thought-provoking, and to an extent educational. What they were not was a sufficient conclusion to the series. I was using this to make a positive example in Akira's favor more than a negative one against Evangelion, although I admit that I did intend for the negative slant to be there. Why should I be "conversatring" with someone who doesn't understand my arguments?I don't know why I'm even bothering responding to you. Anybody who is too stupid to appreciate the last two episodes of Evangelion shouldn't really be in this club, let alone be conversatring with me. Archaeon said: This made me spit out my metaphorical coffee while reading it. A good laugh was had. An even bigger one was had when I read the response.Strange. I'm backing up my arguments with evidence. Where's your proof? Dozer said: You seem to be mixing up two different arguments here. One is the argument that there was nothing quite like Akira in Japan. One is the argument that Akira caused other titles to be brought from Japan. Many of the titles that had already existed in Japan but not here were brought over after Akira. Said "explosion in the west" in the release of new titles was a separate incident entirely, backed by the then-expanding backlog of already-released titles coming to the west in Akira's wake.You mean all the nonexistent released media? Anime didn't explode in the west until the late nineties, way after Akira was released. You are clearly in some state of denial that some of your favorite series could have been influenced by something you dislike so much. Archaeon, myself, and even Santetjan have said everything that needs to be said to demonstrate the impact Akira had, with little more sufficient response than a supposed "something else" that would have come later, accompanied by several insults to the respective intelligence of anyone who does not agree with you. Which gets me onto another tangent that I regret to tread in any argument, but you have taken this too far. I will acknowledge your verbal abuse as having existed. Congratulations, you have insulted a fellow anime fan to the point of him leaving the club because he can stand to be in your presence even less than you can stand to be in theirs. On top of this, you mock this person's exit from the club and throw a final insult in his face. Are you proud of yourself? You have taken something that somebody enjoys and used it to cause this person harm. Bravo, my friend. You have truly proven yourself to be worthy of praise. In fact, you are so amazing an individual because of this that I hereby rescind all my previous debate and accept whatever you say to be the word of a god. I applaud your truly valiant efforts. This club has definitely reaped benefits from your purging of the unworthy. Please continue to punch others in the face, back, and solar plexus on your glorious quest to become a master of throwing monkey wrenches into the inner workings of the human mind. May your judgments of others be eternally valid. In other words, I will no longer view anything you say on this matter as relevant until you can prove that you have outgrown your childish behavior. Now, I accept that there are those such as Dozer and Santetjan and mochaholic that do not think influence is a worthy criteria for acceptance into this club. That is perfectly fine, and I will accept a No vote for that reason. It is simply my view that this is important, and whether someone thinks it is relevant is their own opinion of the criteria. However, I don't think it right to deny that Akira has had no bearing on anime as we know it today, when it so clearly paved a path for the medium to tread. Archaeon's latest post here summarizes my opinions quite well. With that out of the way, I would like to resume having a level-headed, mentally stimulating discussion about the film itself and the impact it had. Santetjan: First, I would like to say THANK YOU for providing a rational, logical, supported, and well-reasoned argument, the likes of which I have not seen on the no side of the debate since Dozer's first two or three posts and mochaholic's points. I may find insults entertaining at first, but they quickly grow tiresome. Akira was definitely released at the right time, and this was certainly a driving force behind its success. Being something new released in a time of little, Akira was given a chance at greatness that other titles were not. I really like your Walkman comparison here. Being more aimed at the mainstream is what really boosted Akira to its success, whereas other titles such as Nausicaa and LOGH (would you recommend I give Honneamise a watch, too?) were superior in terms of filmmaking but could not possibly have garnered as immense a fanbase as did Akira. LOGH is already on our list, and I have no doubt that Nausicaa would be accepted in a heartbeat. Because they were better than Akira, does that mean Akira doesn't also deserve a spot? Not necessarily. But your argument does make sense, in that if you ignore the influence it had and its uniqueness at the time that Akira does not have what it takes to stand among giants. I have already said that I respect this as a valid opinion and will not try to force on you that influence is a key factor, because to some it may not be. We shall have to agree to disagree on this point, I believe, and let others decide alongside us which factors are important. I, too, am interested in hearing about the reactions of people around the world to the movie's release, so I also want to hear what ladyxzeus's father has to say on the matter. Archaeon: While Dozer maintains that something else would have opened the doors, I feel that if it had been something else, even at around the same time, the impact would have been very different. That something else would not have been Akira. It would have popularized different themes, different animation styles, different techniques, different story types, and simply created different anime experience. What that difference would have been would largely have depended on what the replacement was. Thinking about possibilities here is really fun: imagine if it had been a romantic comedy or a slice-of-life title or a horror film that had broken the mold instead. Where would that leave us now? Edit: just realized how illegibly long this was so... tl;dr:Shut up, Dozer. That said, Akira was influential and whether or not that matters to any individual's vote is up to that person. Also some fun mental exercises. |
BokuSatchiiJul 16, 2009 12:58 PM
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
| This was somewhat amusing. And now I will watch the movie. But before I will make a brief evaluation of its impact and how it will affect my vote: As you know, I have a father. Most of us do. This father of mine knows about everything, therefore today - on my weekly lunch and debate about the state of the economy - I asked him about Akira. He smiled recognizing the name but confessed he never watched because, by the time of its release, he was a grownup too busy organizing a state revolution (aka me) to bother with anything at all. Now we have two points here: 1. The fact he recognized the name. 2. The fact that this man was already old for the parameters of the anime fan (around 40 y/o) and he recognized the name The only conclusion I can take: if a 40 year old man hears "Akira" and immediatly associates it to animation coming from Japan and, yet again, he first watched anime - except Pokemon and Digimon - last year (and it was Air Master) it means that Akira was influential enough. This influence may have been the pioneer for other animations, and probably was, but what matter here is that a whole population (more than a whole generation) knows that Japan produces animation thanks to Akira. Not thanks to anything else. That is, in my opinion, extremelly valuable. Will edit to make a straightforward evaluation of this when I finish it. p.s. Remember remember, just because you hate something it does not mean it is shitty. I hate fantasy books, are they shitty? <--- Now I feel like I just destroyed some lives. xD Edit1: omfg minute 29, I want to trip as high as Tetsuo is tripping. xD Edit2: I started writing notes while I was watching the movie to organize them later but it's kind of late so I will show them to you unorganized. In a way it's a very straightforward view of my opinion. =p
Conclusion It had the impact It has the inherent quality I loved it = Yes |
ladyxzeusJul 16, 2009 6:09 PM
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| If we're to vote Akira in based partly on its influence and partly on its own merits, then sure why not? But if we're basing solely on influence and agree that the movie isn't all that good, then we might as well vote Naruto in. I'm not all that well-versed in the history of anime and what-not. And from all that everyone's said, it can be seen that the historical experience varies depending on your region of residence. Speaking from a personal and local experience, Naruto introduced a LOT of people to anime. I know a lot of people who never followed anything before they watched Naruto. It's got them reading the manga to boot. That's not to say they watched any other anime thereafter, but it DID open their eyes to this world. That's influential. I just can't reconcile myself to the fact that I found Akira lacking in certain aspects, the same way I felt there was just something missing in Cowboy Bebop. And it is this lack that leads me to vote 'No'. Oh and about the oft-mentioned disliking something "because it's too popular", it's actually a valid argument to a certain extent. People who check something out just because it's popular expect maybe too much from it. But you can't take that expectation out of the equation or the experience because like it or not, it influences the viewer. |
| I did not like this anime at all. It was boring and tries too hard to be "deep," kind of like those shows that tries to be "different and unique" then fails. Maybe there's something that I didn't "get" from the series, true, but here's my argument: If I'm not interested enough in the anime to actually begin thinking about it, then how is it good? My approach to anime is quite interesting. I don't watch anime primarily for impact or plot, but rather enjoyment first. Once I enjoy an anime, then I begin thinking about other aspect of that anime. For this particular series, I didn't enjoy it, and the thought process ends there. Animation is, I admit, very good for its time. But once again, animation is only good if it is appreciated. I watched Akira at a time where its animation wasn't too impressive, but it wasn't bad either. It was only something noticeable if you really analyze it a great deal. Unlike Kiki's Delivery Service, I didn't casually notice little detail in animation that impressed me for its time. But the thing I respect about Akira is how much it affects anime (from what I've heard, of course). Pardon the comparison to Naruto, but they both accomplish similar things, and that alone cannot be dismissed. No matter how much I personally hate Akira, it's still my opinion, and I cannot deny how influential it was at its time. Naruto introduced me to anime, so give my appreciation to the series. If Akira was really all that popular, then excellent. Character and story, once again, were not memorable. I remember that the characters were definitely believable, but that was it. Pretty much all I remember were cool explosions and good animation. And an anime that made such impressions on me cannot receive high praise from me. EDIT: RobdeFR said: How arrogant can still be this little prick? That's it, I'm leaving this club. Internet "behind the keybord all mighty" Kids like Dozer makes me want to forget about anime forums and MAL clubs. Good luck for the rest of you guys. Please don't do this. While we are having a serious discussion, not everything on the Internet should be taken that seriously. By leaving, you are admitting your defeat to a "little prick." Also, while I am new to this club, I do not appreciate being stereotyped just because of your experience with one person. |
KholdStare88Jul 16, 2009 9:20 PM
BokuSatchii said: That said, Akira was influential and whether or not that matters to any individual's vote is up to that person. Exactly. |
| You make a good point, mochaholic. It wouldn't be right to induct Akira into the club list solely for being popular. I intend to vote yes partly because of the impact it had, partly because it was such a departure from everything else at the time, and partly because the sci-fi fan in me enjoyed the movie despite its flaws. If you didn't like it, by all means vote no. Don't let my paragraphs about its importance to anime dissuade you. I certainly see where you're coming from; just look at my first post. I do slightly resent the Naruto comparison (if only because it is so often used as an example of a "dumb shounen"), but it does make sense to the extent that each introduced a lot of people to anime. The difference is that I don't think Naruto had the same "new and different"-ness or influence on the medium itself that Akira did. Regarding something being too popular, I think you've hit the nail on the head for a large part of the issue. Also worth considering is the fact that people tend to regard popular shows as "mainstream," commercial endeavors and automatically assume that anything mainstream and commercial cannot contain a similar degree of quality to something that's "underground." There is a similar theme in the music industry, and while I don't like it, that bias is certainly there. |
| The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai. You will be honored to accept his invitation. |
What BokuSatchii was trying to convey:  Archaeon was wrong when he said: It seems that we in Europe were a couple of years ahead of you guys in the US though :) I understand that it didn't say that at the time, so I edited it back, but didn't you look at my profile way earlier? Archaeon said: making up excuses as to why we should all ignore its impact Do you think my aim is to change somebody's opinion? Don't you think I've realised that such a thing is impossible? I'm only doing this to set the record straight so as others won't get confused. This club must be a reliable source of information, after all. As for the rest of your post, it's irrelevent to the subject matter (I'm not even sure it's true) so it isn't worth my reply. |
| @ Dozer The facts are there. All you need to do is google for them :) @ Bokusatchi I quite like the the idea of Kusanagi Totoro. It appeals to my sense of wierd. Kusanagi Pikachu would also be something to see xD |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
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