| Juuni Kokuki (The Twelve Kingdoms). You have a lot of seinen and shounen works, so I thought I would suggest some shoujo. ;) Youko starts out rather timid, but she grows up fast. I'm pretty sure by episode 3 she has lots of backbone. Also, do you guys know you have fruits basket on the relations? I can't think of a more moe character then Tohru Honda. O_________O If I am not mistaken Fruits Basket popularized moe characters in the shoujo demographic. |
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| Twelve Kingdoms? Shojo? Really? :) |
FurryFury said: Twelve Kingdoms? Shojo? Really? :) as far as I can tell it is. The source material is of course a novel (which was written by a lady, not that that matters for demographics), but I'm pretty sure the anime is aimed at girls. |
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soaring_wings said: I would call Juuni Kokuki a Seinen at least. It's too damn serious to be only a shoujo, with all the respect for the genre, and the focus isn't the same as the normal shoujo anime where we have focus on romance etc.FurryFury said: Twelve Kingdoms? Shojo? Really? :) as far as I can tell it is. The source material is of course a novel (which was written by a lady, not that that matters for demographics), but I'm pretty sure the anime is aimed at girls. Awesome anime btw. |
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| I humbly disagree. Shoujo is a demographic, not a genre, therefore juuni kokuki can very well be considered shoujo. There are lots of shoujo works with darker tones, politics, other issues, it's just that recent shoujo is flooded with crap and moe. I lament this turn of events. To support my claim, take the manga Banana Fish. It is about gangs, politics, but it is still shoujo. Anyways, regardless of what demographic it really is. It is an awesome anime. But more importantly, can someone remove Fruits Basket from the anime relations? It's an insult to the club to have that on the relations. |
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| I've never ever seen Juuni Kokuki referred as shoujo (most often it's called seinen, at AniDB, for example). It doesn't even have romance, for God's sake :) Everything - art style, storytelling format, subject matter, characters are very much un-shoujo like. Of course, I'm no expert on shoujo, as I tend to hate it at first sight :) I just don't see how this show could be aimed at girls, especially teenage. |
FurryFury said: It doesn't even have romance, for God's sake :) Everything - art style, storytelling format, subject matter, characters are very much un-shoujo like. That is the mistake you and Pyro are making, shoujo is not a genre. Romance is a genre. Romance can be either shoujo, shounen, josei, or seinen. It's easy to make a distinction between shounen and shoujo, harder to make a distinction between shoujo-josei and shounen-seinen. For example, Hana Yori Dango is a shoujo romance, while Love Hina is a shounen romance. Associating romance with one demographic is wrong. Next the reason it is harder to make a distinction between shoujo-josei is because josei is a recently embraced demographic, that is, older manga that were aimed at girls don't really have the two-tier distinction that shounen-seinen have had. Stuff aimed at girls used to be classified as just shoujo, making a lot of what people consider josei, shoujo. I don't have the exact dates when josei magazines first started circulating in Japan, but I do know they arrived much later then shounen, shoujo, and seinen magazines. Second, there are a lot of intermediary magazines, Ribbon is primarily aimed at young girls, Margaret at slightly older girls, yet both come under the banner of shoujo. But Margaret does have series that can get very mature, and that some would can josei based upon themes, elements, etc. What I'm trying to say is classification based upon demographics is a slippery business. Even more so with anime because there are no shoujo channels or shounen channels, thus usually people classify anime based on the source material, which is usually manga. However in Juuni's case, the source material is a novel, making the distinction even harder to make. I am, however, inclined to call it shoujo because the main character is female, and she isn't there for fan service (yes I know, not always the case, but overwhelming, for shounen and seinen, if the main lead is a female she is there for fan service, i.e., she is hot/sexy). And it was written by a lady (again this doesn't mean much, but statistically, most stuff aimed at girls is written by women). This isn't 100% proof that Juuni Kokuki is shoujo, but these are reasons why it is most likely to be shoujo. And again, there are shoujo with themes that are often associated with seinen manga. The best example is the one I gave last time, Banana Fish. Bottom Line. You cannot rule out that Juuni Kokuki is shoujo just because it doesn't have romance, or has a subject matter not associated with shoujo. Associating romance with shoujo is a stereotype, which, alas, is warranted with the god awful state the demographic is in now. I don't blame you and Pyro for assuming that. But ultimately, one cannot conclude Juuni Kokuki isn't shoujo based on themes, art, genre, or anything except what the intended audience was. I have given reasons why I think it is probable to classify Juuni as shoujo, and these are reasons to do with the intended audience. If you would like to argue otherwise, give reasons why the intended audience would not be girls. And because there is no romance is not a reason. Girls don't just read/watch romance. There are lots of shoujo that don't just deal with romance. Examples: Anything by Kaori Yuki, Basara (yeah there is romance but it's secondary to a lot of other stuff), Banana Fish, Kagen no Tsuki (again there is romance, but the main focus is the mystery). These come to mind as shoujo that do not emphasis romance, or just romance. Lots of older shoujo have more example, especially interesting portrayals of love (Claudine...!) sorry for the really long rant. I just don't like when people assume shoujo is all crap and no substance ^^ |
soaring_wingsNov 30, 2009 3:53 PM
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That is the mistake you and Pyro are making, shoujo is not a genre. Romance is a genre. Romance can be either shoujo, shounen, josei, or seinen. Yes, but it's *very* often encountered in shoujo - I've never even heard of a shoujo series w/o one. (yes, I've read your examples - but they aren't as well known as Fushigi Yuugi, or Sailor Moon, or Vampire Knight, etc - although maybe it's just me, I'm no otaku and there are a lot of titles I've never even heard about). I understand quite well it's a demographic - it's just that it has certain themes often associated with it, and by "often" I mean "almost always". Maybe there exist some not very well known shoujo manga titles which don't have any romance, or distressed damsel as a female lead, and a couple of boys she's interested it - but the thing is it's common enough to be associated with this demographic in general. Yes, it is a stereotype - but not an unfounded one. And, well, I have absolutely zero grounds to believe Juuni Kokuki was aimed at girls - or even teenagers in general - as a primary audience. |
| Well, I would say Black Lagoon - Revy is extremely far from moe and I love her for that. Also, Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei: great comedy that makes fun of stereotypes, moe and Japanese culture. Serial Experiments Lain, Samurai Champloo, Hellsing, Claymore, Boogiepop Phantom... And Mononoke is the most UNmoe show I have ever seen. |
| Kaiji = one of the most manly shows ever conceived, so I suppose it's decidedly un-moe. Cromartie High School is also really fucking manly but in a totally different way. |
| I dont think Higurashi would be better without moe, |
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| Does it really have to be just shows though? Manga has so much more good content. |
| Hokuto no Ken (aka. Fist of the North Star) <-- manly as hell |
| I think anything from Miyazaki is the opposite because his female characters are mostly coming of age or very developed. Where as most loli girls stay loli forever. |
Venusrozen said: Probably Kuragehime: -The characters are presented as relatively grotesque people (with the exception of Tsukimi, and even she has got some ugly traits) and the most beautiful person in the cast is a crossdressing man (really), what eliminates any possiblity of real fanservice. -The amars (AKA the aforementioned otaku) are socially akward but not because of shyness (which they have almost none) but because they live so secluded from the outside world they don't even know the basics of social interaction. -Because of the above there's no otaku pandering: no pantyshots, no nudity with the purpose to arouse, no breasts, no nothing. -It's a JOSEI. agree agree |
| Kuragehime was good. Michiko to Hatchin too. How about Ghost in the Shell: SAC and Seirei no Moribito? (The Major and Balsa. :D) Would Mouretsu Pirates be considered moe? (And would Niche from Tegami Bachi?) Chihayafuru, Jormungand (unless Koko), Usagi Drop (unless Rin counts) and Witch Hunter Robin. |
TheMcShan said: Hoisted on on your own petard: If Higurashi is to be tolerated as not moe, then choke on Madoka Magica (I did with both of them, but by far more with the former...)I dont think Higurashi would be better without moe, MM-Rosiie said: Big eyes? Check! Green, blue, red, silver, etc. hair? Check! Maid waitresses in maid cafe serving chocolate parfaits? Check! Miniskirts and high socks? Check (but no panty shots, thank goodness)! Meganekko tsundere sidekick? Check! Flamboyant evolving wardrobe? Check! Mary Sue main character? Check!...Would Mouretsu Pirates be considered moe? ...and yet, even I am somewhat reluctant to call it a moe series; after all, even though they look like that, neither their behaviour nor the plot really fit the genre - could the characters (and/or the author) be just fashion victims? Whatever the case, Herman Hesse wrote said that the sins of the age must also be paid for... thus, Brahms was in hell, and so should this series be. As for Rin, she could be entitled to be as moe as she wanted, but lMHO she's just a realistically (very) adorable litle girl. --- If you want action-oriented shows with blood, guts and general mayhem, try these: Gantz, Full Metal Alchemist (and FMA: Brotherhood), Gunslinger Girl, Petshop of Horrors, Record of Lodoss War, Now And Then Here And There, Rurouni Kenshin Tsuiokuhen, and Kite 1 (not so much the second). Gripe: Mirai Nikki was ruined. Not by the pink hair, not even so much by the --moe, palatal-challenged loli demon-- god's assistent, but IMO by the preposterous hydrocephalic orphanage manager. |
MaegilJan 7, 2013 2:46 AM
| My favorite genres: good Quality, better Quality, best Quality, Über-Quality. Scoring criteria: Existence does not precede Essence. Current status: OFFLINE. Even if not really. I have no Facebook, no Tweeter and no latest fashionable social network. Mail me only if you absolutely must, and I still won't promise to answer: the postman might have been shot by an automated sentry, blown up by a mine, eaten by a shark, or something. |
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