lpf said: Well, you did not quote those people's posts arguing about Shounen-Ai. So it is natural to see that your post is a contribution intended to address the general topic of the thread, which is about Shoujo-Ai. And since you are so intent on making the thread intelligent and productive, then shouldn't you have pulled the discussion back to where it should be all along, which is to discuss the Shoujo-Ai tag??symbv said: I've read the title, but maybe you haven't read the posts which did make a contention out of the use of shounen-ai. My original reply (if you've read it) addressed these comments. If you genuinely think the use of shounen-ai isn't up for debate in a thread about shoujo-ai, then go after the people who, to begin with, brought up the subject to which I just sought to contribute?Dude, you should read the title of the thread before posting. We are talking about SHOUJO-AI. Your quote is about SHOUNEN-AI. I think you should take a look at the title before making that post and this would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Thank you. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| It's surprising, that there is a so big fight about it. I don't realy understand why so many people protecting a wrong tag. Let me affirm I don't want to attack anybody. As I know; Japanese using Yuri (百合) for all girl x girl Anime, Manga, also describing real life girl x girl couples with this word. (correct me please if I'm wrong). They not isolate tamer or less tamer ones with different 'genre tags', they call all Yuri. Westerns somehow started separating them, and named the tamer ones 'shoujo-ai' - maybe because rough translation, and not asked Japanese, if that means something else instead. And those, who protect it in this thread now, saying "it means tamer yuri in english" - is't it sounds a bit weird? If you would like an english word for it, find one, and use that, if you like Japanese, then use the correct word. I mean we, who use this site, like Anime, Manga, most of us also like Japanese language, - even if not understand it - so don't you would like to use a Japanese word as Japanese use? It reminds me when I was in elementary school, where we learnt german and no english, but we liked computer games, what most are english, we often used many english words incorrectly. But when I started learning english, I realised my mistakes, and no longer use 'armoire' for armory or /potion/ instead of /ˈpəʊʃ(ə)n/ for potion ect. ect. (not talking about grammar mistakes, which I'm sure, I do often, gomenasai). It basically souds the same a bit, but here many peoples saying "but I want to use the word incorrectly to Japanese, because I like it like this" Also another thing, why this tag may not necesary; It's like no one - or at least I never seen anybody - separating het. romance like; 'only platonic', 'the're loving each other, and kissing', ect. It's the same, I think, if you see Yuri tag you can know there is girl x girl in that Manga/Anime, and if you see other tags as well (like 'romance', or 'hentai', ect.), you can know what kind of Yuri is it. So, because of this, a tag for isolating tamer ones from not tamer ones not even necesary, because the existence or lack of other tags beside the tag Yuri decribe it well (if all the tags used correctly) If anybody still want to separate them, they can do it on their own Anime/Manga list's 'tags' as freely as they want, and also can use their precious 'pedophilia' tag to their heart's content. Let me reaffirm I don't want to attack anybody. If I did, Gomenasai. |
Zalis said: He said that he heard some Japanese exchange students using the term. I have got Japanese directly telling me about the proper use of the term. I have lived in Japan for decades and I read Japanese news and books everyday - though I am not sure if dumblederp has similar experience to share. So which of our Japanese linguistic overlords (because "being a speaker of a language" makes you an official authority on its usage) do we believe? The ones dumblederp is mentioning, or the one symbv has quoted?] Zalis said: Well, then tell me on what basis did those "linguistic overlords" (who are they precisely anyway??) declare such thing? Because I have never seen "yuri" being used only for explicit porn in Japan. In fact what does that declaration has to do with "linguistic" ???. As for "yuri," I recall that our linguistic overlords declared that it was reserved for explicit pornography (as with "yaoi") and that it shouldn't be used for lesbian romances or overtones in normal all-ages anime. So it's got the same potential for confusion once the pendulum swings back the other way. Zalis said: Then what is convenient and comprehensible? Do the core English speaking people know what the words Shoujo-Ai and Yuri mean?? At the end you are only using some vocab that are absolutely incomprehensible to most English speaking people, including most casual anime fans. If you want comprehensibility then you should go for something that is *really* comprehensible, and this is English. Call the genre "female homosexuality". Convenient and comprehensible. I have no problem. But don't pull some Japanese words and then use it in totally different way from how it is used by the Japanese now. Point is, rather than bending over backwards to concur with the inconsistent and shifting edicts from afar, it's preferable to use terms that the site's core English-speaking/Western audiences find convenient and comprehensible. Zalis said: Well, from what I see, very few people here who are against the Shoujo-Ai tag speaks Japanese. I am actually the rare exception, so you are actually misfiring your shot here. If a tiny Japanese-speaking minority around here finds that confusing, well... Zalis said: Well, if they are adopting the words as proper Japanese so that it can be found in a standard Japanese dictionary, then it is no longer a confusing term in the context. In fact, those Janglish is not even vocab adopted directly from the English vocabulary but more concoction created with English words (there is no such term as "free pass" or "new half" in English) which is unlike Shoujo-Ai, which is a term taken directly from the anime/manga vocabulary of a bygone era but its usage in western worlds has never gone beyond a tiny circle of anime/manga fans (on the other hand, you can grab a Japanese dictionary and find the terms "free pass" and "new half" with little problem). So your argument just fails to stand.Japanese adopts plenty of English loanwords and sometimes mangles them beyond comprehension. Would they extend the same courtesy to foreign users and correct their English, or Janglish, as it's sometimes called? Sora_92 said: Sora_92, you have got a very good analogy here. Those who are against our reasonable request of taking the Shoujo-Ai tag down are just like a bunch of kids who would not admit they have been making mistake all along but want to treat the misguided usage as their toy that no one can pry away from them. Pretty sad, huh? It reminds me when I was in elementary school, where we learnt german and no english, but we liked computer games, what most are english, we often used many english words incorrectly. But when I started learning english, I realised my mistakes, and no longer use 'armoire' for armory or /potion/ instead of /ˈpəʊʃ(ə)n/ for potion ect. ect. (not talking about grammar mistakes, which I'm sure, I do often, gomenasai). It basically souds the same a bit, but here many peoples saying "but I want to use the word incorrectly to Japanese, because I like it like this" |
symbvFeb 5, 2014 6:18 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| We still didn't hear any response to "than we should start calling "anime" everything animated" and "let's stop using English titles that are like years in use and start using proper Japanese instead". But that's 0K, I understand that there is nothing to answer without revealing your own double standards and twisted logic. But let me point to one tiny little bit of problem here: 0K, we all happily destroyed that cursed "shoujo-ai" tag and victoriously put oh so G-dly Righteous "yuri" tag instead. Well, we all happy. Then what about all the fraggin' world around us? Are you seriously gonna go all the way and fight like damn hundreds of thousands other anime fans all around the globe? 'Cause, you know, a whole Hell of 'em using "shoujo-ai" instead of "yuri". So 0K, we can be oh so damn right, but what about communicating with others besides our big happy circle of MAL users? |
 There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.  Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: What double standard and twisted logic? If you want to insinuate something, please elaborate it clearly. We still didn't hear any response to "than we should start calling "anime" everything animated" and "let's stop using English titles that are like years in use and start using proper Japanese instead". But that's 0K, I understand that there is nothing to answer without revealing your own double standards and twisted logic. kitsune0 said: You are putting carts before horse here. The question is not how many people use "shoujo-ai" but whether it is right to use the word to mean female homosexuality.Then what about all the fraggin' world around us? Are you seriously gonna go all the way and fight like damn hundreds of thousands other anime fans all around the globe? 'Cause, you know, a whole Hell of 'em using "shoujo-ai" instead of "yuri". So 0K, we can be oh so damn right, but what about communicating with others besides our big happy circle of MAL users? To put an extreme example, 60 years ago using the word n*gger was common and according to your argument then nobody should change it then just because so many people were using it ?? I believe that taking off the Shoujo Ai tag is the right thing to do and how many people get the mistaken idea about what the word means should not be a consideration when we consider whether to keep using it here in this forum. Besides, MAL is a major anime site in western world. At least I hope that people in charge of this forum think so or have the inspiration of being one. And here MAL can play a leading role in facilitating the anime/manga culture flow and educating the western fandom, by using Japanese term in its correct meaning. MAL could have taken the leadership to correct a long running misuse of a Japanese term but instead, by sticking to attach Shoujo-Ai tag to new anime such as Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san, it contents itself with stagnancy and lethargy. |
symbvFeb 5, 2014 5:58 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Heredity said: Well, it was once used in mainstream movie and it was often used in casual but not necessarily insulting way. I don't think this is how it is used now.Nigger is still used a lot, and still means the same thing. My point is that consideration of whether to drop the usage of a word should not be dependent on how many people keep using it in unacceptable way. And here there is a parallel between the two words. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
kitsune0 said: "let's stop using English titles that are like years in use and start using proper Japanese instead". MAL does that little by little in fact symbv said: At least I hope that people in charge of this forum think so or have the inspiration of being one. And here MAL can play a leading role in facilitating the anime/manga culture flow and educating the western fandom, by using Japanese term in its correct meaning. MAL could have taken the leadership to correct a long running misuse of a Japanese term but instead, by sticking to attach Shoujo-Ai tag to new anime such as Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san, it contents itself with stagnancy and lethargy. They can but they won't Sora_92 said: so don't you would like to use a Japanese word as Japanese use? No not really symbv said: Sora_92, you have got a very good analogy here. Those are against our reasonable request about taking the Shoujo-Ai tag down is just like a bunch of kids who would not admit they have been making mistake all along but want to treat the misguided usage as their toy that no one can pry away from them. Pretty sad, huh? GIVE... ME... BACK... MY... TOY!! T_T Or I'm gonna cry. Don't be a buly, why are you being a bully? |
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| I agree, and I honestly don't see the point in sticking to an out-dated and obsolete term anyway, there's already the yuri tag which serves the same purpose of the old meaning for shoujo-ai. I wonder if the DB Managers are either disagreeing with the situation or just lazy to change from shoujo-ai to yuri for every entry. |
| Can anybody create a poll to see who agrees and who is agains it? Also would be nice to know, those who are agains it, why the're agains it. Might a new thread with some simple answer formats like: agrees or agains it?: why?: |
Sora_92 said: agrees or agains it?: agains Sora_92 said: why?: because my toy |
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| The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. |
| Salmon is delicious. |
symbv said: It was more of a witty observation than an argument. IntroverTurtle said: You try to find a smart argument but end up exposing the problem with the practice. The point is: If we want to use a Japanese term to describe the genre, then we should follow its meaning used in Japan. In the past westerners would call every Medieval Japan fighter, even a lowly soldier, a Samurai; now people know much better and Samurai is used only to mean what it is meant in Japan, which signifies the class as well. So if you have problem with BL for its meaning in English (but this leaves the question of how many English speaking people actually know what BL stands for? On the other hand, there are few Japanese who do not know Shoujo-Ai means girl pedophilia. So your argument that BL is just objectionable to English speaking people is really stretching the argument), then I would say let's just use the English term for the genre. Call it male homosexual, female homosexual, or anything that is clear to an English-speaking person, but just DO NOT use a confusing, obsolete and ultimately by now wrong term that is not commonly found in English vocabulary for a genre just so that it sounds Japanese. If you want the term to sound Japanese, then use the term as Japanese do. I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. So you're basically saying that the Japanese are able to use English words wrong to describe a genre that fits their culture and community but we're not allowed to use Japanese words to do the same thing even though our community is already used to it. Which in our case it's not really wrong, more like outdated. While yes I realize the community we're in is based on Japanese works(mostly) and thus culture, but it still feels a little iffy to me as this is basically a different community based in another country. There's probably more words that we use wrong, I honestly would like to know what those words are. So how many people who notice the wrong meaning decides how wrong it is and if it should be changed. That could work but those are words that the anime community isn't really used to when referring to anime or manga. Yuri, shoujo ai, yaoi, and shounen ai are. But I guess it could work. And correction, isn't it only confusing to people who live in Japan? And wouldn't suddenly changing that actually confuse the English speaking fans who are already use to the outdated(not wrong) definition? And how obsolete is it? Are there any manga that still use that term?(like olds ones still in bookshops or whatever) If someone saw it would they automatically think of pedophilia and run away or would they realize "Oh hey they're using the old definition". |
IntroverTurtleFeb 5, 2014 9:36 AM
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact But 0K, I got it. So, now we some kind of trendsetters, all educated and intelligent. Wow. I guess, now we're some sort of legislature. Yeah, let's lead people to happiness. Even... no, especially if they don't want it. Democracy is a rule of majority, isn't it? |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
Heredity said: Ejc said: Take a look at the first paragraph. 少女愛（しょうじょあい、英語：girllove（和製英語としてのガールズラブも存在するが、意味が異なる））は、少女への、何らかの意味での性的関心を含む愛情である。性的・肉体的な関心に力点を置く場合もあるが、精神的でプラトニックな愛であることを強調する場合もある。日本ではロリコンの同義語として用いられることが多い。 Wow, convinced me. That's pretty clear. Shonen-ai and shoujo-ai are simply not used anymore. Why don't we just default to BL and an equivalent "GL" for "girls love". kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact But 0K, I got it. So, now we some kind of trendsetters, all educated and intelligent. Wow. I guess, now we're some sort of legislature. Yeah, let's lead people to happiness. Even... no, especially if they don't want it. Democracy is a rule of majority, isn't it? Does that mean we can start calling Attack on Titan The Eotena Onslaught? |
Kiraly said: No, we should call it Shingeki no Kyojin. Actually, we already doin' it.Does that mean we can start calling Attack on Titan The Eotena Onslaught? 0K, jokes aside: don't get me wrong. I'm all about callin' things properly (Hell, I'm always referrin' to NGE as Shin Seiki Evangelion), but there are two things: 1) only in proper community. I mean, 0K, let's start step by step usin' "yuri" instead of "shoujo-ai", but don't force it. 0thers may get us wrong. Let the time change things little by little; 2) just as someone already mentioned, using "shoujo-ai" instead of "yuri" with some markin' words (I dunno, PG-14?) is just way more convenient. Yes, it's kinda lame borrowing, but it makes the language richer. Like, for example: in English you use "mail" only for paper mail (well, usually), and using "e-mail" for Net messages. Now, welcome to Russia, where we use "meil" as you use "e-mail", while still usin' our own "pismo" for paper mail. See? All in all: yes, if community decides to replace "shoujo-ai" with "yuri", I'll obey. But I'm still strongly against it. Thank you all and sorry for the rant. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact Yes I'm sure, it seems they left some of the most popular ones, but they changed for example all Dragon Ball movies and Legend of the Galactic Heroes to Japanese. If I'm not mistaken, it seems that in the past MAL went with whatever title was most popular, then staff decided to make the database consistent, and I don't know if it's true but I've been told that they stopped midway while doing so, for some reasons. I liked the old way more tbh. If you want consistency, go to AniDB |
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IntroverTurtle said: wouldn't suddenly changing that actually confuse the English speaking fans who are already use to the outdated(not wrong) definition? Exaccus said: The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. |
tiro_finale said: It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal loli hentai? |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
tiro_finale said: 0h no, not that crap again.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yes, yes, yes, we know that there are some percent of Japanese users here on MAL. But do you seriously think that majority of Japanese anime fans really using MAL? I highly doubt that they even know about this site. Than again, why should we ignore the masses in favor of some not even vocal minority? And yes, there are some well-educated Western users om MAL that knows proper meaning of "shoujo-ai", but than again - it's just some G-d-damn minority, though very vocal this time. And they for sure already know the difference between "shoujo-ai" and "yuri", as well as the difference between Japanese and Western definitions of this terms. Who really will be confused is the majority of users that used to "shoujo-ai", when they suddenly discover that there is no "shoujo-ai" tag but only "yuri". Again, why should we change things only because a small fraction of MAL society are unhappy with said things? Hell, they can't fix damned BB-code, they can't finish that "English back to Japanese renaming" case, and now tags? Just because someone feelin' - like what, guilty? - with some oh-G-d-no-ambiguous tags? Gimme a break. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: tiro_finale said: 0h no, not that crap again.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yes, yes, yes, we know that there are some percent of Japanese users here on MAL. But do you seriously think that majority of Japanese anime fans really using MAL? I highly doubt that they even know about this site. Than again, why should we ignore the masses in favor of some not even vocal minority? And yes, there are some well-educated Western users om MAL that knows proper meaning of "shoujo-ai", but than again - it's just some G-d-damn minority, though very vocal this time. And they for sure already know the difference between "shoujo-ai" and "yuri", as well as the difference between Japanese and Western definitions of this terms. Who really will be confused is the majority of users that used to "shoujo-ai", when they suddenly discover that there is no "shoujo-ai" tag but only "yuri". Again, why should we change things only because a small fraction of MAL society are unhappy with said things? Hell, they can't fix damned BB-code, they can't finish that "English back to Japanese renaming" case, and now tags? Just because someone feelin' - like what, guilty? - with some oh-G-d-no-ambiguous tags? Gimme a break. Are you a jew? |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: Are you a jew? |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Shiratori99 said: Are you a jew? Cause you censor "g-d" lol |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
tiro_finale said: Don't take my quote out of context. I was responding to Symbv saying that the current shoujo ai tag is causing confusioin. I was saying that as our community is used to it, there's no confusion except for with people mostly from Japan. That actually changing the definition would be more confusing for the community than keeping it as English speakers who don't know the current definition in Japan but only our definition are in the majority by far.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. But the western fanbase sees shoujo ai as non explicit or whatever yuri relationship. They don't see them as the same thing, that's why we have those two different tags. |
IntroverTurtleFeb 5, 2014 11:50 AM
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Shiratori99 said: Cause you censor "g-d" lol |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: tiro_finale said: 0h no, not that crap again.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yes, yes, yes, we know that there are some percent of Japanese users here on MAL. But do you seriously think that majority of Japanese anime fans really using MAL? I highly doubt that they even know about this site. Than again, why should we ignore the masses in favor of some not even vocal minority? And yes, there are some well-educated Western users om MAL that knows proper meaning of "shoujo-ai", but than again - it's just some G-d-damn minority, though very vocal this time. And they for sure already know the difference between "shoujo-ai" and "yuri", as well as the difference between Japanese and Western definitions of this terms. Who really will be confused is the majority of users that used to "shoujo-ai", when they suddenly discover that there is no "shoujo-ai" tag but only "yuri". Again, why should we change things only because a small fraction of MAL society are unhappy with said things? Hell, they can't fix damned BB-code, they can't finish that "English back to Japanese renaming" case, and now tags? Just because someone feelin' - like what, guilty? - with some oh-G-d-no-ambiguous tags? Gimme a break. With the '"English back to Japanese renaming" case' we're being kinda drifted away from the original topic. Yes, this is not the only problem on MAL, but if we searching for all the problems and their remedy here that'll end in a so big problem complex, which everybody will abandon, saying; "it's too big to handle, there's no helping it, leave it as it's now". This topic is about this problem, I think, not about 'repair all wrongly used things on MAL' (but please correct me if I'm wrong) Democracy is great, but what mayority says is not always perfect. Think about the medieval, when mayority thought that the Earth is flat. That, that mayority thinks it's correct, not makes it correct. Similar case with the meaning of this word. I might add this to what Tiro_finale said, but it might so obvious not even need to mention; Add some big announcement that it'll being removed/changed to Yuri - due to it's incorrect use - so even those who wasn't aware this will know, and they will not confused (though I don't see why they would be confused to begin with) |
kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact Here's the topic where they were changing titles. |
SerhiykoFeb 5, 2014 12:12 PM
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kitsune0 said: Shiratori99 said: Cause you censor "g-d" lol I see XD I've only seen jews doing that, that's why I asked. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Sora_92 said: I might add this to what Tiro_finale said, but it might so obvious not even need to mention; Add some big announcement that it'll being removed/changed to Yuri - due to it's incorrect use - so even those who wasn't aware this will know, and they will not confused (though I don't see why they would be confused to begin with) But yuri is hentai |
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tiro_finale said: Exaccus said: The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yuri tends to imply sex or borderline sex occurring at some point in series. Shoujo-ai is the lovey dovey feels without things ending up in the bedroom. So I stand by what I said earlier that changing the tags is only going to cause confusion. Best to leave things as they are. |
| Salmon is delicious. |
Serhiyko said: Sora_92 said: I might add this to what Tiro_finale said, but it might so obvious not even need to mention; Add some big announcement that it'll being removed/changed to Yuri - due to it's incorrect use - so even those who wasn't aware this will know, and they will not confused (though I don't see why they would be confused to begin with) But yuri is hentai Exaccus said: tiro_finale said: Exaccus said: The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yuri tends to imply sex or borderline sex occurring at some point in series. Shoujo-ai is the lovey dovey feels without things ending up in the bedroom. So I stand by what I said earlier that changing the tags is only going to cause confusion. Best to leave things as they are. Not really I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. MAL's definition for Yuri is yuri with hentai So if the problem is dicerning between just Yuri and Yuri+Hentai(Mal's yuri) why not just add the Hentai tag to yuri shows that contain hentai? Sounds much more intelligent, and makes much more sense. IntroverTurtle said: I know, I understood what you said, I believe you misunderstood me.I was saying that as our community is used to it, there's no confusion except for with people mostly from Japan. That actually changing the definition would be more confusing for the community than keeping it as English speakers who don't know the current definition in Japan I am saying that I don't see how removing the shoujo-ai would cause any confusion to western fans. In my perspective the shoujo-ai wouldn't be used anywhere else so they wouldn't stumble upon them and confuse it for yuri. IntroverTurtle said: As I said in this same post, I don't really see anywhere else where Yuri = Yuri + Hentai. Which is Mal's definition http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genreBut the western fanbase sees shoujo ai as non explicit or whatever yuri relationship. They don't see them as the same thing, that's why we have those two different tags. I'm not sure if that's how it's been in the past, but Yuri doesn't really necessarily implies hentai. And again, if they problem is dicerning Yuri and Yuri with Hentai, it makes much more sense to apply the Hentai tag. The definition that Yuri necessarily implies Hentai seems to be anothed outdated thing, though unlike shoujo-ai, I rarely see people asserting yuri wrong, i.e Hentai like mal does. |
MomonoFeb 5, 2014 1:02 PM
tiro_finale said: Oh ok, my bad.I know, I understood what you said, I believe you misunderstood me. I am saying that I don't see how removing the shoujo-ai would cause any confusion to western fans. In my perspective the shoujo-ai wouldn't be used anywhere else so they wouldn't stumble upon them and confuse it for yuri. Well then it would cause confusion for MAL members, not neccasarily all western fans as I don't have stats of that, I was caught up in Symbv's talk about western fans. And I believe it is used elsewhere, I believe someone has posted a link below me. tiro_finale said: Well that's the thing, I'm talking mostly about MAL members. It's been accepted here(as you've seen we haven't had any threads or really discussions about this until now) that yuri is yuri + hentai. I'm not saying that I have stats that show an online definition elsewhere that all western fans use, but from what I've seen online most people use it that way.IntroverTurtle said: As I said in this same post, I don't really see anywhere else where Yuri = Yuri + Hentai. Which is Mal's definition http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genreBut the western fanbase sees shoujo ai as non explicit or whatever yuri relationship. They don't see them as the same thing, that's why we have those two different tags. I'm not sure if that's how it's been in the past, but Yuri doesn't really necessarily implies hentai. And again, if they problem is dicerning Yuri and Yuri with Hentai, it makes much more sense to apply the Hentai tag. The definition that Yuri necessarily implies Hentai seems to be anothed outdated thing, though unlike shoujo-ai, I rarely see people asserting yuri wrong, i.e Hentai like mal does. Though I believe the yuri tag is for yuri relationships with sex, not always hentai. Because not all sex in anime is hentai, only when it's explicit. Now that you think about it, it is a weirdly thought of tag. There's no tag seperating heterosexual romance anime to heterosexual romance anime that has non explicit sex. It's either it's hentai or it's not. |
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Serhiyko said: Because that's where mal copied it of: http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genre Scroll down and you can see it.tiro_finale said: Not really I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. AniDB uses yuri in the same sense AniDB tags might be the source of mal's misuse but just because somewhere else is also wrong doesn't mean we have to be as well. |
IntroverTurtle said: Well that's the thing, I'm talking mostly about MAL members. It's been accepted here(as you've seen we haven't had any threads or really discussions about this until now) that yuri is yuri + hentai. I'm not saying that I have stats that show an online definition elsewhere that all western fans use, but from what I've seen online most people use it that way. I'm not sure where have you been seeing it but the majority of western manga-reader sites or scanlators don't use it that way. (Like mangafox, dysnaty-reader and others). Also, going back to Japan, yuri doesn't imply sexual content either, explicit or not. The difference is that unlike shoujo-ai I rarely see people asserting yuri as necessary sexual content outside of mal. Of course I might be wrong on weather the majority uses it correctly or not though, but the point I'm trying to make is that fixing the issue here would not cause confusion as people are stating. The only problem I might see arising is someone searching the database using the no-long existent shoujo-ai tag, or thinking shows tagged as Yuri have sexual content (which I doubt since if it has it would be likely rated 17+). And there's proof http://myanimelist.net/anime/20047/Sakura_Trick = Even now some entries are addering to the correct term and nobody is confused about it. |
tiro_finale said: As I said in this same post, I don't really see anywhere else where Yuri = Yuri + Hentai. Which is Mal's definition http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genre I'm not sure if that's how it's been in the past, but Yuri doesn't really necessarily implies hentai. And again, if they problem is dicerning Yuri and Yuri with Hentai, it makes much more sense to apply the Hentai tag. Unfortunately, M*nga Fox uses it in the same wrong way, as MAL does. That might cause some confusion here. Also, I seen many Animes/Mangas tagged with both tags, which is, with all this wrong and not wrong descritiptions just looks weird. Like if MAL realy want to isolate tamer ones from not tamer ones, then what is the meaning of both used on a same Anime/Manga? Also, if Yuri would mean girl x girl hentai by itself, while 'soujo-ai' would mean girl x girl, then 'shoujo-ai' + hentai would be used for describing that, instead of using a third tag. So with this we might return to the point that it's no longer isolated, and instead the wrong 'shoujo-ai', we should use Yuri, and add hentai tag as well, in cases of Yuri hentai, but not otherwise. Plus, if you think about titles, like Yuru Yuri, that is not hentai. In short, I agree with Tiro_finale |
tiro_finale said: IntroverTurtle said: Well that's the thing, I'm talking mostly about MAL members. It's been accepted here(as you've seen we haven't had any threads or really discussions about this until now) that yuri is yuri + hentai. I'm not saying that I have stats that show an online definition elsewhere that all western fans use, but from what I've seen online most people use it that way. I'm not sure where have you been seeing it but the majority of western manga-reader sites or scanlators don't use it that way. (Like mangafox, dysnaty-reader and others). Also, going back to Japan, yuri doesn't imply sexual content either, explicit or not. The difference is that unlike shoujo-ai I rarely see people asserting yuri as necessary sexual content outside of mal. Of course I might be wrong on weather the majority uses it correctly or not though, but the point I'm trying to make is that fixing the issue here would not cause confusion as people are stating. The only problem I might see arising is someone searching the database using the no-long existent shoujo-ai tag, or thinking shows tagged as Yuri have sexual content (which I doubt since if it has it would be likely rated 17+). And there's proof http://myanimelist.net/anime/20047/Sakura_Trick = Even now some entries are addering to the correct term and nobody is confused about it. I already know that yuri doesn't imply sexual content in Japan. This is about our community. And do you see people talking about the different genres often? Because while I say it's accepted here, I have rarely heard anyone talking about their definitions. Well you're talking about the western fanbase and stuff. But I'm talking about this site. If this site uses it that way and the users are used to that, wouldn't changing it bring at least a little bit of confusion? Keep in mind I'm not totally against this suggestion. The genres do need to be redone, especially their explanations like you linked, some were missing definitions, others had weird too simple ones, etc. Well people look at the tags more than they do the ratings. They might not watch it thinking it is a hentai just because they noticed the tag. It would also be a good suggestion for the rating on an anime's page to specify why it got that rating. That's one anime that is almost brand new(only been about a month since it's started airing). It sometimes takes people months after an anime stops airing before they point out a wrong tag or start asking questions. How many others are there? I think what would really settle this is to see whether this site's members actually follows this site's definition or if they know about the definitions at all. |
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Sora_92 said: Unfortunately, M*nga Fox uses it in the same wrong way, as MAL does. That might cause some confusion here. The term for Yuri doesn't seem to be wrong there though: Mangafox: Yuri: Girls love, involves intimate relationship between women. But yeah they seem to go wrong in using Shoujo-Ai, the tagging there is even more odd than here because based on their definition, they are basically the same thing, MAL tries to do some (innacurate) differentiation. Sora_92 said: And that doesn't even look like too much of a hassle, I don't really get why some people are so strong against it.Also, if Yuri would mean girl x girl hentai by itself, while 'soujo-ai' would mean girl x girl, then 'shoujo-ai' + hentai would be used for describing that, instead of using a third tag. So with this we might return to the point that it's no longer isolated, and instead the wrong 'shoujo-ai', we should use Yuri, and add hentai tag as well, in cases of Yuri hentai, but not otherwise. IntroverTurtle said: Well ok, but I really never noticed that before, I'm not old in this site but from the fanbases or communities more deeply related to the tag that I observated, there isn't really this confusion based on the connotation, I suppose the members who would be confused about it are rather the ones who aren't very familiar with the content of the terms. And even then, I don't think it would be much of a hassle to adapt to the correct terms.Well you're talking about the western fanbase and stuff. But I'm talking about this site. If this site uses it that way and the users are used to that, wouldn't changing it bring at least a little bit of confusion? IntroverTurtle said: Fair enough I guess, but even if they ignore the rating what are the chances someone will accidentaly avoid an anime thinking it might be hentai? There are other ways they could noticed it isn't, aren't there?Well people look at the tags more than they do the ratings. They might not watch it thinking it is a hentai just because they noticed the tag. It would also be a good suggestion for the rating on an anime's page to specify why it got that rating. IntroverTurtle said: Does this mean there is a chance someone might eventually switch the tag for the soujo-ai one?That's one anime that is almost brand new(only been about a month since it's started airing). It sometimes takes people months after an anime stops airing before they point out a wrong tag or start asking questions. How many others are there? Well I do hope that nobody gets confused at the term from Sakura Trick, a lot of people who might watch it are already fond of the definitions and that's why I don't think there would be much confusion. Even if there were a few, I believe people adapting to the definition wouldn't be a problem? |
MomonoFeb 5, 2014 2:01 PM
tiro_finale said: Than you've been on teh internets not so long. 0r not so deep. 0n the side note: the majority of Russian anime fans (that, of course, including MAL users) indeed understand "shoujo-ai" and "yuri" exactly like "lesbian romance" and "lesbian sex" respectively. And if you thinkin' about Japanese minority here, then what about Russian minority here? It's quite bigger than Japanese.I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: 0n the side note: the majority of Russian anime fans (that, of course, including MAL users) indeed understand "shoujo-ai" and "yuri" exactly like "lesbian romance" and "lesbian sex" respectively. And if you thinkin' about Japanese minority here, then what about Russian minority here? It's quite bigger than Japanese. I don't think anybody said it's for the Japanese minority, or for any minority, agains any mayority. It's to clear a misunderstanding, and stop using a wrong tag. Yes, MAL is not Japanese, but about Japanese Anime and Manga - not about English, or Russian, (not attacking), or any other, so in a site about Japanese Manga and Anime, it's - I think - would be correct to use a tag as Japanese uses it. (Correct me if I'm wrong) |
kitsune0 said: Sora_92 said: You think wrong.I don't think anybody said it's for the Japanese minority, or for any minority Well... maybe... though I don't think those post are about what Japanese minority would like. Ejc said: and some have expressed their astonishment at the misuse of the term "shoujo-ai". tiro_finale said: japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. I think these are about it's wrong according to them too, and with the remove of the tag, no one - neither Japanese or anybody else - 'll lose. (but again correct me if I'm wrong, or misunderstood something) Also, may I have a question? Why are you so agains it? Not attacking, but I'm curious. |
jojovonjo said: Maybe it would be beneficial if MAL changed the definitions as wellI would Say that Sakura Trick has an implied sexual relationship between two female characters. They should reword the definition to say "implies sexual relationship," but I like having both tags. And that is all I will say on this subject. Shoujo-ai (Or whatever it may be changed to) to just imply romance or "strong friendship", anything with bait and switch or romantic two girl friendship would get this. (Maria-sama, Yuru Yuri for example) Then have Yuri mean an actual romantic relationship. (Girl Friends, Octave for example) |
Mogu-samaFeb 5, 2014 8:09 PM
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tiro_finale said: I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. I've never seen it either. As far as I'm concerned, yuri means the same thing to western fans as it does to Japanese fans, which is any romantic interactions between girls. |
 |
| The point is that shoujo-ai is obsolete and outdated. It doesn't matter how many westerners are ignorant of its proper meaning, or continues to defend the misuse of shoujo-ai. It must be corrected if MAL is to be consistent and accurate with its use of genres. Simple as that. kitsune0, you continue to go back to the same argument (ohh, the Japanese-born users on MAL are a minority) every single time. It has no basis here, as we are arguing over the inaccuracy of genres being applied to Anime DB entries. Again, it is as simple as that. You can look in the Sakura Trick threads, and see that the majority of watchers know what yuri is. It's only the small few who are ignorant, as you can see in that thread about why Sakura Trick isn't labelled as shoujo-ai. This would benefit yuri fans, as just how much of the anime community in the West actually watch Yuri (and I mean the correct blanket definition of female to female relations)? I will reiterate again, that people who are for the removal of shoujo-ai from the DB just want consistency and accuracy for the DB here. I don't think people care if other western fans continue to feign ignorance or are ignorant and use shoujo-ai in everyday language. DB consistency and accuracy is what matters here on MAL. This is a step in the right direction, and could facilitate further action, such as removing misused demographics (shounen, shoujo, seinen and josei) from the Anime DB entries. Manga DB entries are fine with using demographics, but not light novels. |
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Sora_92 said: Ah, just as I think. You didn't read the thread, do you? Well, it's on the previous page... as well as on the 5th... and 4th.Also, may I have a question? Why are you so agains it? Not attacking, but I'm curious. Ejc said: Stop lying. 0r you also didn't read the thread?kitsune0, you continue to go back to the same argument (ohh, the Japanese-born users on MAL are a minority) every single time. 0h, you funny you. You're pointin' to threads where yuri fans gathered, sayin' "look, they knew". Sure they knew. Fans know their basics. So, in short, it's all about The Truth, and no fucks given to consistency? What are MAL, court or fan site, from fans to fans? Hell, MAL is not even the official site, it's not like it's bound to follow official rules. Well, anyway, I highly doubt that this will be put in action soon. Just you look at the BB-codes, fer example. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Sora_92 said: Ah, just as I think. You didn't read the thread, do you? Well, it's on the previous page... as well as on the 5th... and 4th.Also, may I have a question? Why are you so agains it? Not attacking, but I'm curious. I did read the thread, I think I reacted to them, but if not I'll react to them now... 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Hope not hurt you. But through all these post, I still not understand Why you're so agains it? You say things, like "But Japanese also using some words incorrectly" That's might true, but that not makes this 'shoujo-ai' correct. "there are a lot of problems on MAL, like BBCode, or Half-Japanese-Hal-English titles, and so", but we not here for these problems now, create a new topic about them, if you would like. with those, we will just drifted away from the original problem, we are here to solve. The fact that there other problems too, not necesarily makes this one smaller, I would say, it's one step toward repairing many problems in MAL, no human is able to solve all with a single step, but might able to solve step-by-step - also not one human, but more, a community. also, you keep talking abot your Russian language; I must say, it seems that you realy love your native language, which is a wonderfull thing (no sarcasm, realy, I think it's a great thing) - Russian must be a realy beautiful language - especially to you - if you cherish it soo much, (I don't speak it at all, so I don't know it). But the tags on MAL are not Russian, so how this or that is called in Russian not realy does anything with MAL's tags. So I don't realy understand your problem; yes, it will not repair MAL's all problems, but it will not hurt anybody either, especially if MAL announces it realy loud, so no one will be confused why did 'shoujo-ai' tag disappeared/replaced with Yuri tag. it also does nothing with anybody's native languege. and anybody who still want to use it, still can use it on their own Manga/Anime list's tags. will not confuse those, who are searching for tamer Yuri Anime/Manga, if the other tags - for example 'hentai' tag's existance or lack beside the Yuri tag - also used as they should. So I might realy silly, but I realy don't understand why you're so agains it Also, something I don't understand about this whole thread; the thread is about the remove of the 'shoujo-ai' tag. Anybody who is here must be a Yuri fan (girl x girl), otherwise would not care about that tag to begin with. I would think Yuri fans are not conservative peoples. I don't understand why these peoples are so conservatively protecting a tag - might had that meaning a decade earlyer what they use for, but no longer means that - what is old, and no longer should be used, because it's now meaning something else, realy not what they think it's mean. I, or anybody else, who would like to get rid of this tag, we might can be like Galileo Galilei, we can backtrack, and leave others loving their Flat Earth, with everithying circulate around it, but it doesn't change the fact - It doesn't change, that 'shoujo-ai' means 'pedophilia', hence, it should't be used for describing tamer Yuri (girl x girl). "And yet it moves." Let me reaffirm I didn't wanted to hurt or attack anybody, if I did, Gomenasai. |
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