Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio: Ars Nova Episode 5 Discussion

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Feb 2013

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Takuan_Soho said:

AnimageNeby said:
That said, now that I've read the manga...I'm not entirely enamoured by the way they've adapted it.

This is why I try not to read things before I watch them, I am seldom happy with changes. Fortunately I haven't read the manga, as such I haven't been disappointed.

AnimageNeby said:
(Think about it, would you/the government *really* let a prodigy-child who was developing a major weapon against the fog totally alone and without human oversight??)

If the child required an unknown chemical regimen in order to survive, then yes, they may not have any choice on this: she was the goose who laid the golden egg. They would have to accede to that demand until she finished the weapon: now that they have the weapon she has become expendable, which would explain why they can attack her now. Of course the animation did not explain this and perhaps they did not even think of it, but they did show her taking all those pills and having a very routine checkup so this explanation is not only consistent but also eminently reasonable.

AnimageNeby said:
This was primarily due to the fact they changed her setting and background and the people living in the house completely. Also, the memory of her grandfather...what will they do if that becomes a plot-device in the manga for going after the submarine? Leave that out too?

I don't think you have to worry about this, the show is already 42.5% over (5/12), and the writer should know what the animators are planning to do, so I doubt there will be a conflict. Though you are right that this could become a problem if the show is extended: Gintama had a funny episode about this problem.

AnimageNeby said:
No, they changed too much to my liking, and even worse, to remain consistent in the story itself. Which is a shame.

Being the type who is often disappointed (to the extent I stopped watching shows I have read), I definitely sympathize with you on this, but I am willing to try to rationalize any issues like the one above you had :-)

Only 12 episodes? That would explain the drastic cutting they've done in the last two episodes. It would depend on where they want to stop the animation, of course, but in essence this manga should deserve a 24-26 episode-series. The 12 ep. series are all, with a few exceptions, far too short to really get into them. More often than not, they feel rushed (because they often are), and they lack a credible world-creation. There are a few exeptions, but those are usually short, self-contained stories to begin with, and the pacing has to be perfect (and the characters extra-ordinarily engaging). Most manga's aren't suited to such short animations, and I don't believe this one is neither.

I'm not following you with the 'chemical regimen'. How would that be a reason to not put a human next to her? It would be even more of a reason, and preferably one with a medical background. You seem to imply SHE wouldn't want any humans around her and would object, but the story implies rather the reverse; that it was forced on her, and that she actually is craving for company. She clearly is lonely. And it was clearly said she wasn't allowed to leave the house or make friends. The whole explanation of that weird situation was that they feared her so much they want to get rid of her (even though she was successful in creating a fog-weapon? Really? How realistic is that? Can you imagione a government wanting to get rid of something that doesn't pose a direct threat, but actually succeeds in creating a weapon against a deadly enemy. Just imagine for ONE second this was real: would any government really eliminate such a person, even if she was genetically manipulated - to which they themselves gave the order - to be a super-genius?). And even if they were so completely afraid; why, then, wanting to create another one? To be afraid again? The first reason doesn't make sense, but it makes even less sense with the latter.

Even the whole 'outlived her usefulness' approach, it seems highly unlikely. In the sense that it's completely illogical. Is one now claiming that she can possibly make only one weapon against the fog? That you need another super-genius to create a new one? How could they have possibly come to that conclusion? Again, imagine it in a real situation: you have a young prodigy, a genius of 8 years old. Even at such young age, she succeeds in making a weapon against the fog, your worst enemy of superior strength: a feat never done before. Are you now concluding she must be disposed off? You don't see any useful purpose for her talents anymore, so you're going to scrap her and develop a new one?

Normally, you would pamper such a person to your fullest extend, and indeed, surround her with other humans to make her at ease. No better way to have more control of somebody, especially a child, than with human bonding, after all (I know, a bit cynical, but true). Would everybody have missed such an obvious thing? Unlikely!

Nah, sorry, but somehow this feels contrived. It really doesn't make sense. And the reason is largely due to the fact they left too much of the backstory and personages out.

It's true I notice the inconsistencies way sooner because I've read the manga (which does a far better job at it remaining consistent, even though not perfect), but I would notice the more contrived ones regardless, me thinks.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a bad anime; it has its forte. It's one of the better of this season, even (though there aren't that many good ones left right now, to be honest). But they cut corners a bit too much. And you're right; especially when holding it against the original manga makes you feel the missing parts double as hard. Maybe I should have watched the entire anime first, and then only the manga. That way, even when I noticed some discrepancies, I would only feel relieved that they're almost all gone in the manga. The manga really is more compelling and more subtle/differentiating, that's for sure.

Ah well...maybe, when the manga ends, they will do a remake of it with a 26-epsiode. Remakes sometimes happen; they did it with HxH and FMA.

AnimageNebyNov 6, 2013 2:38 PM

Nov 6, 2013 3:34 PM

#54

Yasu-kun

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Jun 2012

3948

No action, but I don't think the episode was bad.

Every time I see Haruna in that coat, I always think she could be a character on the Black Hole from Advance Wars 2, especially since she commanded a battleship.

Nov 6, 2013 3:57 PM

#55

Takuan_Soho

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Oct 2012

6648

AnimageNeby said:
I'm not following you with the 'chemical regimen'. How would that be a reason to not put a human next to her? It would be even more of a reason, and preferably one with a medical background.

We seem to have a different view of the background, which could be an error on my part, or could be a difference between the manga and the animation, but I thought that the guy in bed was the girl's creator and he had a desire to protect her from the government. An effective way to force the government to have a "hand's off" approach would be for the creator to design the girl so that she needs to receive some sort of medication daily, and this combination is only known to the creator. So while the government would prefer to have her under their control, they can't take her without killing her. That was what I thought the showing the medication was for.

As for why the government would fear her. Since she is designed, any chance she could have more in common with the mental modes than with humans? In particular the ability to manipulate nanomaterial. If this were the case, the mental modes can construct high tech ships far superior to anything the humans have, imagine what this girl could do if she has a similar power. This is just my spec'ing based what has been shown, but the creator dude did say that the government was moving because she came into contact with the Fog. This could be what they feared as well as preventing the Fog's goal of finding out what the weapon is.

I'll stop here because my initial assumption could be wrong, but just from watching the animation this is where I thought they were going with the girl.

Nov 6, 2013 7:41 PM

#56

nseika

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Apr 2008

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About the medication, not necessarily intended by her creator. Design children is still a morally questionable issue in the world, humanity is just desperate enough to turn blind eyes to this case because they got bigger problem.
Added to the fact that the other Design Children didn't make it, the need for routine drug and check up is a necessity even if her "father" doesn't want it.

CMIIW, but in the manga version, Makie doesn't actually build the resonance torpedo.
The idea is conceived by other scientist (her maker, perhaps). Problem is, he met his own limitation to complete the important part, calculating Fog's vibration pattern to be used by the torpedo.
That's why "if human can't do it, lets make something that can do it"
Then Makie is the suvivor of the project, with better intelligence. No need for other quality, and perhaps not even have to live longer than what she need to finish the weapon. She's just a custom built tool to be solution to a specific problem.

nseikaNov 6, 2013 7:47 PM

Nov 6, 2013 7:57 PM

#57

RediceRyan

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Jan 2013

11047

Surprisingly good episode. Didn't expect that interesting of a side story. Nice comedy too, actually pretty funny

Nov 7, 2013 12:52 AM

#58

Akamitsu

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Apr 2010

1909

Hahaha, this show is becoming funnier.

Nov 7, 2013 2:32 AM

#59

reggiewafu

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Nov 2009

12

Need more Takao

Nov 7, 2013 9:15 AM

#60

symbv

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Sep 2012

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If the budget is only for 12 episodes, then one has to make the best out of the available resource and viewed this way the effort has not been bad. In fact, those fans in Japan who have read the manga hold generally positive view about the changes, even though they would prefer to see Hakugei or more politics and background stuff. I guess those fans are just being more realistic and appreciative of the difficulty to balance limited resource with maximizing the appeal of the material in the anime.

So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.

Nov 7, 2013 10:09 AM

#61

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Mar 2012

1672

symbv said:
If the budget is only for 12 episodes, then one has to make the best out of the available resource and viewed this way the effort has not been bad. In fact, those fans in Japan who have read the manga hold generally positive view about the changes, even though they would prefer to see Hakugei or more politics and background stuff. I guess those fans are just being more realistic and appreciative of the difficulty to balance limited resource with maximizing the appeal of the material in the anime.

Considering that this series is also entirely in CGI the cost for this anime adaption is even higher than standard anime were lucky enough to even get 12 episodes, still i just hope this series might be successful enough that the people behind would consider making another season

Nov 7, 2013 2:12 PM

#62

potplant

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Nov 2010

234

I thought CGI is cheaper than traditional methods....

There's not enough material in the source for 24 episodes, hell, there's not even a central arc yet that you can conceivably put a mini-ending on.

Nov 7, 2013 4:08 PM

#63

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Feb 2013

623

Takuan_Soho said:

AnimageNeby said:
I'm not following you with the 'chemical regimen'. How would that be a reason to not put a human next to her? It would be even more of a reason, and preferably one with a medical background.

We seem to have a different view of the background, which could be an error on my part, or could be a difference between the manga and the animation, but I thought that the guy in bed was the girl's creator and he had a desire to protect her from the government. An effective way to force the government to have a "hand's off" approach would be for the creator to design the girl so that she needs to receive some sort of medication daily, and this combination is only known to the creator. So while the government would prefer to have her under their control, they can't take her without killing her. That was what I thought the showing the medication was for.

As for why the government would fear her. Since she is designed, any chance she could have more in common with the mental modes than with humans? In particular the ability to manipulate nanomaterial. If this were the case, the mental modes can construct high tech ships far superior to anything the humans have, imagine what this girl could do if she has a similar power. This is just my spec'ing based what has been shown, but the creator dude did say that the government was moving because she came into contact with the Fog. This could be what they feared as well as preventing the Fog's goal of finding out what the weapon is.

I'll stop here because my initial assumption could be wrong, but just from watching the animation this is where I thought they were going with the girl.

Hmm. I must confess that's an - for me - entirely alien interpretation of it, and I'm not sure how one could arrive at such a conclusion. If I understand you correctly, you think that her 'father' deliberately made her such, that she needs medical attention, and threatens to stop it, if the government started to care for her?

But...isn't that the exact opposite what we've been shown? I don't think he would mind if the government saw her true value and started to treat her more humanly. It's the 'father' who came to love her and started to care about her, and even faked his own death, just to protect her. It's him who is complaining that the government doesn't seem to want her. It's exactly his fear that they will discard/kill her. Why would he then threaten to kill her by abstaining her medicine...if the government wants to get rid of her in the first place? Furthermore, if that was the case, then wouldn't his faked death defeat the purpose of that anyway? He can't threaten the government to not give her the right medicines if he's dead, right?

I really think you're on the wrong side of the track on this. The only thing I concluded seeing that scene in the anime, was that she, as a design child, still had the burden for the rest of her life (probably), of taking drugs and medicines just to stay alive. The scene was there for empathic reasons (to show the rather sad downside of her life). It's a consequence of her artificial creation, much as the clones in Toaru Kagaku no Railgun S.

As for the reasons of the fear; I find it rather contrived. They first deliberately create a superior human. Sure, genetically manipulated, but still human, basically - so what has that to do with a mental model? Maybe if she was created with the same core/nanobots/whatever as the ships/mental models of the fog, but no hint of that whatsoever has been given.The mental models clearly see her as belonging to the human race, not one of theirs. She is basically a genetically upgraded version of a normal human.

Besides, if the government really is that afraid; why do they want to make another one?

It really makes little sense, let's face it.

As far as claims go that Japanese fans are being more realistic and appreciative of the difficulty to balance limited resource with maximizing the appeal of the material in the anime, one could also claim the reverse; that they have far less of a sense of quality, are less critical, have less high standards, and are rapidly satisfied. Not claiming it as a fact, but it's a rebuttal on the same grounds of saying they are more realistic: none. A contradiction remains a contradiction, and something that is incoherent remains incoherent; it has nothing to do with Japanese fans or Western ones, on itself. If Japanese truly have less qualms with things being more inconsistent than Westerners, then I find the more critical stance of Western fans to be more praiseworthy.

As far as the anime goes; they made a *reasonable* effort, but not an extra-ordinarily good one. Saying it's still good considering the balancing that must be done between limited resource with maximizing the appeal of the material in the anime, is like saying a limousine is still comfortable if you take into account that it has to be made the size of a bicycle, or a pleasure-yacht is still good if you try it to squeeze it to the volume of a brick 'while maximising the appeal of the yacht' : it doesn't make much sense. As said, I don't think the anime is quite that bad yet, it's...fairly ok...but let's not forget that 'balancing' and 'maximising' aren't worth their salt if what is balanced and maximised is only a pale derivation of the original or what it ought to be. If the most delicious meal is being mixed in a bag and then dried and made into a powder, one can claim it was a balancing between conserving it and maximising it's nutritious values...but it still would not be worth eating anymore, or even be remotely tasty food. Point is, if 'the best that was possible under the circumstances' is shite, than it is shite, and no balancing can help that, because you're balancing crap. In that case, one should be better off NOT to try to make it under these constraints. It's the end result that counts, and for that endresult, I think one shouldn't lower ones bar too much.

Anyhow, the anime is less good than the manga, but it's still doable. We'll see how it goes from here. But I, for one, refuse to lower my standards just with the reasoning that 'it couldn't be helped'. Because even when it would turn out it couldn't be helped that it became bad, it would still be bad, period.

AnimageNebyNov 10, 2013 1:25 PM

Nov 8, 2013 12:43 AM

#64

Cirris

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May 2011

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symbv said:
If the budget is only for 12 episodes, then one has to make the best out of the available resource and viewed this way the effort has not been bad. In fact, those fans in Japan who have read the manga hold generally positive view about the changes, even though they would prefer to see Hakugei or more politics and background stuff. I guess those fans are just being more realistic and appreciative of the difficulty to balance limited resource with maximizing the appeal of the material in the anime.

Still, I think they are painting themselves into a corner in some respects. Some of the characters they're erasing in the anime adaptation play huge side rolls in the manga later on. It's getting to the point now where the anime is more of an alternate universe.

I mean the anime is ok for me. I still enjoy it. I kind of wish that the manga storyline would have been adapted. The Manga is on a whole other level of story telling. The anime is just flat out simple and bland in comparison.

As for the episode. I enjoyed the teasing Kirishima and Haruna were doing to each other at Makie's mansion.

Kongou's eyes are intense. I especially got chills when she stared at Haruna and shifted her head.

Takao's brief appearance was amusing. "NANI KORE!!!" which pretty much means is "WTF!" in English

Nov 8, 2013 4:41 AM

#65

terrablu2003

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Nov 2011

7621

5/5

Oh well, all twelve episodes dedicated to shoot at him from both sides were unlikely, but even without adrenaline contexts, would not call it evil. Plot that turns "the route" in other shores, I consider good in the light of possible developments that may go in the future, while mantenedno a footprint which partly reflects the ideas and concepts already seen in other animated series, of which one is acceptance of diversity understood in many ways! :)
Narration very funny, but in a way I hoped that Kirishima returned to his old form, because then it could mean a possible chance of future fights in which she also appeared, who knows that it can not happen! ^ ^ "
Technically it is close to perfection, because of the animations are not always fluid, but I'm not giving that are more noise annoyance at the beginning, should only make them more fluid to make sure that the viewer forget that the designs are made in CG.

Nov 8, 2013 9:15 AM

#66

Naoki-Saten

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Jan 2013

648

Funny episode. But why all this fanservice? What the heck is wrong with Haruna?

Nov 8, 2013 9:40 AM

#67

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Jan 2008

1893

I love this show. I, for one, am happy they're not wasting time on the politics. What I want is more ship on ship action, in either form. So far, it's delivering just what I want. Type B forever.

Nov 8, 2013 10:04 AM

#68

Darklight0303

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11325

DmonHiro said:
I love this show. I, for one, am happy they're not wasting time on the politics. What I want is more ship on ship action, in either form. So far, it's delivering just what I want. Type B forever.

So you hate world building.

Nov 8, 2013 10:46 AM

#69

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Feb 2013

623

Darklight0303 said:

DmonHiro said:
I love this show. I, for one, am happy they're not wasting time on the politics. What I want is more ship on ship action, in either form. So far, it's delivering just what I want. Type B forever.

So you hate world building.

My thoughts exactly. An intricate, believable 'universe' can not be created with solely 'action', be it battles or fanservice.

Mind; on itself I have nothing against people who say they just want superficial entertainment. But then you're better off watching some shallow 13-in-a-dozen anime. Considering the manga, this has so much more potential, one can not else than consider it a waste if they would reduce it to pure battle and ecchi-themes.

Luckily, they seem to acknowledge that themselves, to some extend. The only problem is their huge cuts they're doing these last episodes. The manga really is much better suited for a 24-26 adaptation. They should have waited a bit until they had enough material for that, and then made a more faithful adaptation, with all the nuance and world&story building in it.

AnimageNebyNov 8, 2013 11:06 AM

Nov 8, 2013 12:40 PM

#70

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Jan 2008

1893

No, actually, I don't need anything more then what was presented here.
I understand what the Fog are, and what they do. I understand how that has impacted humanity. I understand the measures taken to try and restore the trade lanes. I understand the creation of new weapons. There's really no need for me to know what kind of political power plays are taking place behind the curtains.

Nov 8, 2013 2:13 PM

#71

potplant

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Nov 2010

234

DmonHiro said:
No, actually, I don't need anything more then what was presented here.
I understand what the Fog are, and what they do. I understand how that has impacted humanity. I understand the measures taken to try and restore the trade lanes. I understand the creation of new weapons. There's really no need for me to know what kind of political power plays are taking place behind the curtains.

You'll do just fine. I don't think the 'world building' in the source matters that much for the plot anyway, YET. So including them in a 12 episode story will lead us nowhere other than please existing fans. A bit like Steins;Gate, many concepts with potential were brought up, then superficially touched upon or abandoned.

Nov 8, 2013 2:29 PM

#72

Azetaminofen

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Jul 2013

1237

At what time the series returned for a fun time, without action and boring?

Kirishima Tediz reminds me of Conker's Bad Fur Day.

Nov 8, 2013 2:35 PM

#73

nseika

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Apr 2008

1123

If they go by the major events in the manga, there won't be naval battle soon
- Action on land
- Talk
- Action on land
- Talk
- Epic naval battle

On the animation adaptation, while they did remove many things, the (not so important) parts they elaborate in the anime are fun to watch.
When looking at it as a side-dish for the manga instead of a this-or-that choice, it's not that bad. Wouldn't say good, but don't have to be an abomination either. Not like the staff can force in parts they removed earlier, they probably already start producing the last episode by now.

Low standard person here

nseikaNov 8, 2013 2:39 PM

Nov 8, 2013 2:41 PM

#74

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Feb 2013

623

DmonHiro said:
No, actually, I don't need anything more then what was presented here.
I understand what the Fog are, and what they do. I understand how that has impacted humanity. I understand the measures taken to try and restore the trade lanes. I understand the creation of new weapons. There's really no need for me to know what kind of political power plays are taking place behind the curtains.

Exactly. That was what I was saying; some people don't need or long for anything 'more'. You are certainly not an exception, and even in real life, many people do not care about politics. ;-)

They'll end up being ruled and their lives regulated by the laws those same politicians they don't care about create, but they'll still not be interested, as long as they are appeased. "Panem et circenses" was already known in the time of ancient Rome, in fact.

That said, it's more then just about politics in the anime; a lot has been cut out, including complete side-stories and some details who are hinted at to become important in the future. If they keep this up, you'll get another story than what the mangaka actually wants to portray. It also undermines the internal consistency of the story. This may not interest you at all, I know. I wasn't interested in it neither when I was 7 years old and watched pokemon. Back then, I also didn't need anything more than what was presented.

But, you know, along the line I matured and I now understand there is more to a great series than just 'ship-to-ship action'. I'm quite curious though how you derived from that 'action' what the fog are. Let's hear it: what are the fog, really? Where did they come from? What is their purpose? What are they seeking? And most importantly: why?

Personally, I find the 'what' less important than the 'why'. One could say: well, I saw this happen, and that, and I'm happy with it... but I think it's more important to know WHY something happened. And, in a general sense, that is 'politics', indeed.

So, I readily accept *you* don't need anything more. This is not being disputed, on the contrary. But what I and the other poster are saying is, that a 'universe' or 'worldbuilding' based on the sort of 'action' you described without eye for further detail and consistency and delving into the 'why' of things, is by definition a shallow one.

AnimageNebyNov 9, 2013 12:09 AM

Nov 8, 2013 10:44 PM

#75

Mercuri

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May 2013

785

very fun to watch, next episode is going to be awesome will kirishima have a new face if she gets a new body or will she remain as a teddybear for the whole series?

Nov 9, 2013 12:39 AM

#76

Blind_Guardian

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Apr 2011

1149

LOL @ people being self-important enough to bitch about why other people like shit.

Liked the loli and all the fanservice from HaruHaru. Nice to see her get out of that gigantic freaking coat for awhile, especially when so little is being worn underneath. I like that some of the mental models are able to survive the destruction of their warship forms. I do wonder how they're going to introduce all the other warships and have them fight in the limited time they have for the series. I wish it'd gotten two cours, but with the all-CGI animation, they probably didn't have the budget to do two. Sure, Fate/Zero's animation quality was insane, but it also had several months in between and had a massively popular franchise behind it.

5/5

Nov 9, 2013 1:08 AM

#77

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Feb 2013

623

Blind_Guardian said:
LOL @ people being self-important enough to bitch about why other people like shit.

Liked the loli and all the fanservice from HaruHaru. Nice to see her get out of that gigantic freaking coat for awhile, especially when so little is being worn underneath. I like that some of the mental models are able to survive the destruction of their warship forms. I do wonder how they're going to introduce all the other warships and have them fight in the limited time they have for the series. I wish it'd gotten two cours, but with the all-CGI animation, they probably didn't have the budget to do two. Sure, Fate/Zero's animation quality was insane, but it also had several months in between and had a massively popular franchise behind it.

5/5

Also lol @ people for confusing a factual observation with bitching about 'why' other people like things. The point was, that if people like shit, it still is shit. For some, shit is all they need, for others it ain't. (Edit: I used shit because of your wording. On itself it doesn't mean it's worthless in all aspects (aka, pop-corn entertainment value). But battlefests and ecchi-fanservice can hardly be called 'deep', can they? So if one only likes those things, one can't but call that a liking for the superficial or shallow. I do not dispute that (or 'why') someone can prefer superficial things, only that self-acknowledging that one does, does not make it any less shallow. Though I guess you could say self-knowledge is the beginning of all wisdom. ;-))

Normally, CGI is done to make things *less* expensive ('manual' labour is more expensive). That said it depends also on the quality of the CGI, and it's pretty well done in this series. You have anime - even recent ones - where the CGI really stands out like a gaping sore on the landscape and doesn't fit in at all. Fate/zero was really good, but not alone in terms of graphic quality. The story, plot and characters were very compelling as well.

AnimageNebyNov 9, 2013 1:40 AM

Nov 9, 2013 1:42 AM

#78

Saturate

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467

best ep in the season.

Nov 9, 2013 2:00 AM

#79

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Jan 2008

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AnimageNeby said:
But, you know, along the line I matured and I now understand there is more to a great series than just 'ship-to-ship action'. I'm quite curious though how you derived from that 'action' what the fog are. Let's hear it: what are the fog, really? Where did they come from? What is their purpose? What are they seeking? And most importantly: why?

Unless, of course, you CAME for ship to ship action. See, that's all I came for. Watched the preview, read the description, decided to watch it. And I don't care what the Fog are beyond very advanced ships with now humanoid avatars. They could be alien, but more likely, they are man made. Maybe they'll tell us, maybe they won't, by the end of the first episode. Being mature doesn't mean that you need deep plots and detailed world to enjoy something. Being mature means enjoying something for what it is, or dropping it if it is not what you want. Bitching about it is the opposite of mature.

Nov 9, 2013 3:03 AM

#80

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Feb 2013

623

DmonHiro said:

AnimageNeby said:
But, you know, along the line I matured and I now understand there is more to a great series than just 'ship-to-ship action'. I'm quite curious though how you derived from that 'action' what the fog are. Let's hear it: what are the fog, really? Where did they come from? What is their purpose? What are they seeking? And most importantly: why?

Unless, of course, you CAME for ship to ship action. See, that's all I came for. Watched the preview, read the description, decided to watch it. And I don't care what the Fog are beyond very advanced ships with now humanoid avatars. They could be alien, but more likely, they are man made. Maybe they'll tell us, maybe they won't, by the end of the first episode. Being mature doesn't mean that you need deep plots and detailed world to enjoy something. Being mature means enjoying something for what it is, or dropping it if it is not what you want. Bitching about it is the opposite of mature.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Even if you came for ship to ship action, this does not alter the fact if that is all that there is to it, the world-building still remains superficial and shallow. Whether you care about deeper plot elements or not does not change the fact that if something (and this anime is starting to lack *some* of it, though not yet at a level where it's not worth watching anymore) lacks those elements, it's still superficial.

As said, I understand you only came for the easy satisfaction. I repeat: that is fine (certainly for you, it would seem). What I'm saying is; originally, it had a lot more potential in it. The anime is still ok, but they starkly reduced things that would have made a more coherent, in-story believable 'universe' - as they actually have created (in the manga).

And no, being mature is not enjoying whatever 'for what it is', or otherwise all satisfaction of basic pleasure-needs would constitute 'maturity'. In fact, it has nothing to with it: even infants and beasts can be satisfied with 'what is'; and one can hardly call them mature. Human progress has never come from people who didn't need 'anything more then what was presented' and were not interested in the 'why' of things. I use 'maturity' in the dictionary sense of "Worked out fully by the mind; considered" and "To evolve toward or reach full development". Notice the 'considered' and the 'full'; this indicates a mature mind seeks out MORE than superficial satisfaction, rather it seeks out a more 'full' understanding of the world he lives in (and in this case, of the world one is presented in the anime).

So by all means, if some people are only interested in superficial things, so be it. But don't start calling it anything else than that, let alone 'mature'.

AnimageNebyNov 9, 2013 8:15 AM

Nov 9, 2013 3:21 PM

#81

Offline

Jan 2008

1893

AnimageNeby said:
So by all means, if some people are only interested in superficial things, so be it. But don't start calling it anything else than that, let alone 'mature'.

I was not talking about the show. I was talking about people, as in a mature person that does not enjoy this would just leave, since it would be a waste of time and effort to just bitch about it, since they wouldn't be able to change it anyway.

Nov 9, 2013 3:43 PM

#82

Offline

Feb 2013

623

DmonHiro said:

AnimageNeby said:
So by all means, if some people are only interested in superficial things, so be it. But don't start calling it anything else than that, let alone 'mature'.

I was not talking about the show. I was talking about people, as in a mature person that does not enjoy this would just leave, since it would be a waste of time and effort to just bitch about it, since they wouldn't be able to change it anyway.

That would depend on the premisses used. Being critical of a series is not the same as not finding any redeeming qualities in it, for instance. And criticising it where that criticism is warranted, is not bitching neither. And lastly, being able to change something about it is not the point (at least, not inherently) of having a discussion about something. Otherwise, reviews and criticism about any plays, films, music, performances, games, etc. should all cease, since they're already made or performed. Clearly, critical articles and reviews are continued to be made. Which indicates it has nothing to do with wanting to change what has been criticised.

If anything, an immature person is someone wanting another person who is critical to leave, because one can't handle the criticism very well. Imho.

AnimageNebyNov 9, 2013 3:54 PM

Nov 9, 2013 4:20 PM

#83

Blind_Guardian

Offline

Apr 2011

1149

You're a little bitch and you're being a little bitch. So STFU and let people enjoy it for the reasons they want instead of calling them shallow and pretending you're so superior to others.

Nov 9, 2013 11:40 PM

#84

Offline

Feb 2013

623

Blind_Guardian said:
You're a little bitch and you're being a little bitch. So STFU and let people enjoy it for the reasons they want instead of calling them shallow and pretending you're so superior to others.

I disagree. :-) Besides, as I've said multiple times now, I have no qualms with people enjoying themselves with purely ship-to-ship action, but I remain of the opinion that, if that is all there is to it, the world&story building is superficial.

Whether being interested in a more intricate, coherent story and world-building rather than shallow entertainment makes one superior, I leave up to the reader. Personally, I would say that it's better to have a more complete understanding of a world, then to just cater for the superficial entertainment, but it could be you're of another opinion.

But by all means: enjoy the anime as you see fit. It doesn't mean what I said is logically invalid, however.

AnimageNebyNov 10, 2013 1:31 PM

Nov 10, 2013 4:05 AM

#85

Offline

Mar 2012

1672

This is suppose to be a discussion about the episode and instead it is becoming full of talk about how things are criticized could you pls take this discussion someplace else

Nov 10, 2013 4:17 AM

#86

Offline

Feb 2013

623

-ShadowClaw- said:
This is suppose to be a discussion about the episode and instead it is becoming full of talk about how things are criticized could you pls take this discussion someplace else

Agreed; it was originally started with the observation that the episode cut back on many things, and introduced some inconsistencies, as well as a diminished believability of the portrayed world (aka: a lesser intricate, and more superficial worldbuilding). This was somehow disputed by some, and then the discussion went his own way, but, indeed, have little bearings anymore to the initial observation.

I think it's best to leave this particular discussion as it is, since I think the case has been logically and conclusively settled, and it's now going off-topic. I support your suggestion that if anyone wants to discuss this any further, he should do so elsewhere.

AnimageNebyNov 10, 2013 4:21 AM

Nov 10, 2013 7:15 AM

#87

Offline

Mar 2012

1672

Alright look i am going to say few opinions regarding this anime as well as to try to resolve this argument that's been going on lately.

First of All not only i am watching this series i am also reading the Manga up to the current translated chapter and since i seeing both i can say that both of the series are good in each in their own respective way

While The Manga has a lot more material and a lot more detailed, the anime series is also good in another.

The Main problem i am seeing is that for one the anime series has not finished airing yet and even tough it already has some plot deviations from the Manga series you cant really say ho much the story will go until it actually finishes, you have to see at least where the plot is going first.

Let me point out a few things that are so far present in both in the Manga and the Anime and that which is present within the Manga only, those present with in the Anime only as well as those i think will be at least granted to see in the anime

Im putting spoiler tags for those who have not read the manga

So far even the only thing that is a real major concern from Manga storyline to be include within the anime storyline is the removal Hakugei 3 submarine and some of the characters although even tough they have not been introduced there is still for them to be introduced in some way even further into the storyline in another way it wouldn't be the first time for important characters to be introduced in a different fashion is it ? [/spoier]

Also:

What is most likely garunteed to be seen in the anime that is the same as the manga:

Not sure if this will be included in the anime:

Also if this series is successful enough it ould create a demand for more of the series to be produced so the major deviations would be covered than or better yet they would do a re-adaptation and follow the manga storyline more faithfully it wouldnt be the first time as a matter of fact i just saw a re-adaption of another series last summer.

So far the projections seem to be doing quite possitive with the sale proections steadily incrasing because even though this series has deviated some it is still good right now the sales are projected at 6.5k for the first volume which is not bad espcially since this series is in full CGI and is regarded cheaper to make than traditional series.

BOTTOM LINE: Accept the series as it is and dont throw in complaints if u have to let them be justified and pointed directly at the series not at each other. Also in my opinion This series so far at least has been good in its own way and thats my opinion ok

Nov 10, 2013 8:17 AM

#88

Offline

Feb 2013

623

-ShadowClaw- said:
Alright look i am going to say few opinions regarding this anime as well as to try to resolve this argument that's been going on lately.

First of All not only i am watching this series i am also reading the Manga up to the current translated chapter and since i seeing both i can say that both of the series are good in each in their own respective way

While The Manga has a lot more material and a lot more detailed, the anime series is also good in another.

The Main problem i am seeing is that for one the anime series has not finished airing yet and even tough it already has some plot deviations from the Manga series you cant really say ho much the story will go until it actually finishes, you have to see at least where the plot is going first.

Let me point out a few things that are so far present in both in the Manga and the Anime and that which is present within the Manga only, those present with in the Anime only as well as those i think will be at least granted to see in the anime

Im putting spoiler tags for those who have not read the manga

So far even the only thing that is a real major concern from Manga storyline to be include within the anime storyline is the removal Hakugei 3 submarine and some of the characters although even tough they have not been introduced there is still for them to be introduced in some way even further into the storyline in another way it wouldn't be the first time for important characters to be introduced in a different fashion is it ? [/spoier]

Also:

What is most likely garunteed to be seen in the anime that is the same as the manga:

Not sure if this will be included in the anime:

Also if this series is successful enough it ould create a demand for more of the series to be produced so the major deviations would be covered than or better yet they would do a re-adaptation and follow the manga storyline more faithfully it wouldnt be the first time as a matter of fact i just saw a re-adaption of another series last summer.

So far the projections seem to be doing quite possitive with the sale proections steadily incrasing because even though this series has deviated some it is still good right now the sales are projected at 6.5k for the first volume which is not bad espcially since this series is in full CGI and is regarded cheaper to make than traditional series.

BOTTOM LINE: Accept the series as it is and dont throw in complaints if u have to let them be justified and pointed directly at the series not at each other. Also in my opinion This series so far at least has been good in its own way and thats my opinion ok

I never said the anime didn't have any redeeming qualities. If you'll note, in former posts I even indicated some scenes where they improved. However, it is also true their worldbuilding has suffered - and mind you, this is already true when relative minor details are missing, which aren't pivotal (yet), but nervertheless introduce some inconsistencies that aren't there in the manga. For more detail see my earlier post http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=685565&show=40#msg26193655. The whole change of the household of the girl and how they portrayed it in the anime may not be detrimental in proceeding with the main plot, but 'locally' it already produces some inconsistencies for the attentive viewer. As a whole, it makes less sense (in-story), and thus, the believability of the created 'universe' also lessens.

Also, as you point out, there are some really big changes too, and whole side-stories they've dropped. Even if they were to be introduced in following episodes, the introduction can not take place anymore as it was meant to be since...well, it has already passed. This is not to say what they replaced it with was bad; actually, I thought the submarine vs battleship fight was pretty well done. But that doesn't change the fact they omitted some rather large portions of side-stories and side-characters. This flesh(ed) out the world even further in the manga, and it showed it is NOT only about the sub and its crew.

And it also shows the theme of 'regaining the pride of humanity', since they managed to hold their own with a purely human-made vessel. This was explicitly mentioned in the manga; it's completely gone in the anime. Also, some things they've changed will become even a greater problem later on. For instance, in the manga they clearly made the point that the girl thought she had a grandfather (this was actually the reason she went out the house, escaping her 'father'). This means, in the manga this is an important drive for that character, and she actively seeks out her grandfather who she is told is on the 401. This is hardly coincidence. With other words, there is a strong case that in the future she will search for the 401 *because* she thinks her grandfather is on it. She lacks that motivation in the anime. Sure, you can replace that with some other, more contrived motivation, but that's just it: slowly but surely, you are undermining the natural flow of the manga, into something that makes a lot less sense, and is less believable. PS. I'm quite sure they showed in the manga how Takao arrived at that shipyard too (well, the fight she had just before), though maybe they used a flash-back for it, don't remember. So it doesn't really improve it in the anime, it's exactly the same. I would agree they improved a little on some character building in the anime, albeit with a loss of others. I also agree the series should have another season. The way they've been cutting things out shows that they did not believe or intended to have a 24-26 anime, or, as you say, they wanted to check the popularity out first. As far as your bottomline is concerned: I never complaint about others as a person, I merely contested the idea that the series does not need any of the deeper themes, plot, story and worldbuilding because it delivers 'action' (aka; battlefests and ecchy fanservice). What I said was, that if that was all there is to it to this series, the worldbuilding is - by definition - more superficial, especially compared to that of the manga. I can't just readily 'accept the series' as you say, as if there is no warranted criticism possible. Even though - as I also said - it has not come to a point where it becomes not worth to watch it anymore. The anime is still ok, but the slight improvements now and then of some minor scenes do not compensate for the loss of coherency, worldbuilding and negation of complete side-stories and other characters, and also the underlying *reasons* for some actions, aka: the (motivations of) politics and powerplays of the different actors. Granted, for a 12-epsiode series, you have to cut some things back, but once you start loosing the coherency of the portrayed world and introducing contradictions (in-story) and lessen your worldbuilding, you're going the wrong way.

AnimageNebyNov 10, 2013 8:49 AM

Nov 10, 2013 9:11 AM

#89

Offline

Mar 2012

1672

AnimageNeby said:

-ShadowClaw- said:
Alright look i am going to say few opinions regarding this anime as well as to try to resolve this argument that's been going on lately.

First of All not only i am watching this series i am also reading the Manga up to the current translated chapter and since i seeing both i can say that both of the series are good in each in their own respective way

While The Manga has a lot more material and a lot more detailed, the anime series is also good in another.

The Main problem i am seeing is that for one the anime series has not finished airing yet and even tough it already has some plot deviations from the Manga series you cant really say ho much the story will go until it actually finishes, you have to see at least where the plot is going first.

Let me point out a few things that are so far present in both in the Manga and the Anime and that which is present within the Manga only, those present with in the Anime only as well as those i think will be at least granted to see in the anime

Im putting spoiler tags for those who have not read the manga

So far even the only thing that is a real major concern from Manga storyline to be include within the anime storyline is the removal Hakugei 3 submarine and some of the characters although even tough they have not been introduced there is still for them to be introduced in some way even further into the storyline in another way it wouldn't be the first time for important characters to be introduced in a different fashion is it ? [/spoier]

Also:

What is most likely garunteed to be seen in the anime that is the same as the manga:

Not sure if this will be included in the anime:

Also if this series is successful enough it ould create a demand for more of the series to be produced so the major deviations would be covered than or better yet they would do a re-adaptation and follow the manga storyline more faithfully it wouldnt be the first time as a matter of fact i just saw a re-adaption of another series last summer.

So far the projections seem to be doing quite possitive with the sale proections steadily incrasing because even though this series has deviated some it is still good right now the sales are projected at 6.5k for the first volume which is not bad espcially since this series is in full CGI and is regarded cheaper to make than traditional series.

BOTTOM LINE: Accept the series as it is and dont throw in complaints if u have to let them be justified and pointed directly at the series not at each other. Also in my opinion This series so far at least has been good in its own way and thats my opinion ok

I never said the anime didn't have any redeeming qualities. If you'll note, in former posts I even indicated some scenes where they improved. However, it is also true their worldbuilding has suffered - and mind you, this is already true when relative minor details are missing, which aren't pivotal (yet), but nervertheless introduce some inconsistencies that aren't there in the manga. For more detail see my earlier post http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=685565&show=40#msg26193655. The whole change of the household of the girl and how they portrayed it in the anime may not be detrimental in proceeding with the main plot, but 'locally' it already produces some inconsistencies for the attentive viewer. As a whole, it makes less sense (in-story), and thus, the believability of the created 'universe' also lessens.

Also, as you point out, there are some really big changes too, and whole side-stories they've dropped. Even if they were to be introduced in following episodes, the introduction can not take place anymore as it was meant to be since...well, it has already passed. This is not to say what they replaced it with was bad; actually, I thought the submarine vs battleship fight was pretty well done. But that doesn't change the fact they omitted some rather large portions of side-stories and side-characters. This flesh(ed) out the world even further in the manga, and it showed it is NOT only about the sub and its crew.

And it also shows the theme of 'regaining the pride of humanity', since they managed to hold their own with a purely human-made vessel. This was explicitly mentioned in the manga; it's completely gone in the anime. Also, some things they've changed will become even a greater problem later on. For instance, in the manga they clearly made the point that the girl thought she had a grandfather (this was actually the reason she went out the house, escaping her 'father'). This means, in the manga this is an important drive for that character, and she actively seeks out her grandfather who she is told is on the 401. This is hardly coincidence. With other words, there is a strong case that in the future she will search for the 401 *because* she thinks her grandfather is on it. She lacks that motivation in the anime. Sure, you can replace that with some other, more contrived motivation, but that's just it: slowly but surely, you are undermining the natural flow of the manga, into something that makes a lot less sense, and is less believable. PS. I'm quite sure they showed in the manga how Takao arrived at that shipyard too (well, the fight she had just before), though maybe they used a flash-back for it, don't remember. So it doesn't really improve it in the anime, it's exactly the same. I would agree they improved a little on some character building in the anime, albeit with a loss of others. I also agree the series should have another season. The way they've been cutting things out shows that they did not believe or intended to have a 24-26 anime, or, as you say, they wanted to check the popularity out first. As far as your bottomline is concerned: I never complaint about others as a person, I merely contested the idea that the series does not need any of the deeper themes, plot, story and worldbuilding because it delivers 'action' (aka; battlefests and ecchy fanservice). What I said was, that if that was all there is to it to this series, the worldbuilding is - by definition - more superficial, especially compared to that of the manga. I can't just readily 'accept the series' as you say, as if there is no warranted criticism possible. Even though - as I also said - it has not come to a point where it becomes not worth to watch it anymore. The anime is still ok, but the slight improvements now and then of some minor scenes do not compensate for the loss of coherency, worldbuilding and negation of complete side-stories and other characters, and also the underlying *reasons* for some actions, aka: the (motivations of) politics and powerplays of the different actors. Granted, for a 12-epsiode series, you have to cut some things back, but once you start loosing the coherency of the portrayed world and introducing contradictions (in-story) and lessen your worldbuilding, you're going the wrong way.

I can totally understand from your perspective and it does make a lot of since, but i think this series was actually made for 2 things primarily and this is true for most anime based on material is to help promote the manga to gain more popularity and so it would boost the manga sales and

2 also as an expirmintation to see how people would react on seeing a fully cgi anime series but if the series is populer enough it might grant it another season which might fix certain stuff but as you said it would not be quiet the same as the original manga storyline or better yet they would see the initial results wait for more material to surface and could possibly re do it following the actual main storyline.

I didn't mean and disrespect on the contrary i find your opinions insitefull im just trying to highligh t some of the positive because people tend to focus more on the negative when it comes to this sort of stuff

And regarding of the former mentioned reasons it did it's job.

once the manga begins its serializations in English translations in America next summer i will start to collect it and i am proud to say it will be my first manga series so even if they wont make a proper adaption or more anime which i hope i am wrong at the very least the one thing that came out good from this anime is that it helped me to be introduced to this series, so they did there job when it comes to promote the manga.

Also once this gets licensed for American release dubbed or not i will get the anime for my collection. it is worth having :)

Nov 10, 2013 9:18 AM

#90

Darklight0303

Offline

Apr 2008

11325

-ShadowClaw- said:

AnimageNeby said:

-ShadowClaw- said:
Alright look i am going to say few opinions regarding this anime as well as to try to resolve this argument that's been going on lately.

First of All not only i am watching this series i am also reading the Manga up to the current translated chapter and since i seeing both i can say that both of the series are good in each in their own respective way

While The Manga has a lot more material and a lot more detailed, the anime series is also good in another.

The Main problem i am seeing is that for one the anime series has not finished airing yet and even tough it already has some plot deviations from the Manga series you cant really say ho much the story will go until it actually finishes, you have to see at least where the plot is going first.

Let me point out a few things that are so far present in both in the Manga and the Anime and that which is present within the Manga only, those present with in the Anime only as well as those i think will be at least granted to see in the anime

Im putting spoiler tags for those who have not read the manga

So far even the only thing that is a real major concern from Manga storyline to be include within the anime storyline is the removal Hakugei 3 submarine and some of the characters although even tough they have not been introduced there is still for them to be introduced in some way even further into the storyline in another way it wouldn't be the first time for important characters to be introduced in a different fashion is it ? [/spoier]

Also:

What is most likely garunteed to be seen in the anime that is the same as the manga:

Not sure if this will be included in the anime:

Also if this series is successful enough it ould create a demand for more of the series to be produced so the major deviations would be covered than or better yet they would do a re-adaptation and follow the manga storyline more faithfully it wouldnt be the first time as a matter of fact i just saw a re-adaption of another series last summer.

So far the projections seem to be doing quite possitive with the sale proections steadily incrasing because even though this series has deviated some it is still good right now the sales are projected at 6.5k for the first volume which is not bad espcially since this series is in full CGI and is regarded cheaper to make than traditional series.

BOTTOM LINE: Accept the series as it is and dont throw in complaints if u have to let them be justified and pointed directly at the series not at each other. Also in my opinion This series so far at least has been good in its own way and thats my opinion ok

I never said the anime didn't have any redeeming qualities. If you'll note, in former posts I even indicated some scenes where they improved. However, it is also true their worldbuilding has suffered - and mind you, this is already true when relative minor details are missing, which aren't pivotal (yet), but nervertheless introduce some inconsistencies that aren't there in the manga. For more detail see my earlier post http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=685565&show=40#msg26193655. The whole change of the household of the girl and how they portrayed it in the anime may not be detrimental in proceeding with the main plot, but 'locally' it already produces some inconsistencies for the attentive viewer. As a whole, it makes less sense (in-story), and thus, the believability of the created 'universe' also lessens.

Also, as you point out, there are some really big changes too, and whole side-stories they've dropped. Even if they were to be introduced in following episodes, the introduction can not take place anymore as it was meant to be since...well, it has already passed. This is not to say what they replaced it with was bad; actually, I thought the submarine vs battleship fight was pretty well done. But that doesn't change the fact they omitted some rather large portions of side-stories and side-characters. This flesh(ed) out the world even further in the manga, and it showed it is NOT only about the sub and its crew.

And it also shows the theme of 'regaining the pride of humanity', since they managed to hold their own with a purely human-made vessel. This was explicitly mentioned in the manga; it's completely gone in the anime. Also, some things they've changed will become even a greater problem later on. For instance, in the manga they clearly made the point that the girl thought she had a grandfather (this was actually the reason she went out the house, escaping her 'father'). This means, in the manga this is an important drive for that character, and she actively seeks out her grandfather who she is told is on the 401. This is hardly coincidence. With other words, there is a strong case that in the future she will search for the 401 *because* she thinks her grandfather is on it. She lacks that motivation in the anime. Sure, you can replace that with some other, more contrived motivation, but that's just it: slowly but surely, you are undermining the natural flow of the manga, into something that makes a lot less sense, and is less believable. PS. I'm quite sure they showed in the manga how Takao arrived at that shipyard too (well, the fight she had just before), though maybe they used a flash-back for it, don't remember. So it doesn't really improve it in the anime, it's exactly the same. I would agree they improved a little on some character building in the anime, albeit with a loss of others. I also agree the series should have another season. The way they've been cutting things out shows that they did not believe or intended to have a 24-26 anime, or, as you say, they wanted to check the popularity out first. As far as your bottomline is concerned: I never complaint about others as a person, I merely contested the idea that the series does not need any of the deeper themes, plot, story and worldbuilding because it delivers 'action' (aka; battlefests and ecchy fanservice). What I said was, that if that was all there is to it to this series, the worldbuilding is - by definition - more superficial, especially compared to that of the manga. I can't just readily 'accept the series' as you say, as if there is no warranted criticism possible. Even though - as I also said - it has not come to a point where it becomes not worth to watch it anymore. The anime is still ok, but the slight improvements now and then of some minor scenes do not compensate for the loss of coherency, worldbuilding and negation of complete side-stories and other characters, and also the underlying *reasons* for some actions, aka: the (motivations of) politics and powerplays of the different actors. Granted, for a 12-epsiode series, you have to cut some things back, but once you start loosing the coherency of the portrayed world and introducing contradictions (in-story) and lessen your worldbuilding, you're going the wrong way.

I can totally understand from your perspective and it does make a lot of since, but i think this series was actually made for 2 things primarily and this is true for most anime based on material is to help promote the manga to gain more popularity and so it would boost the manga sales and

2 also as an expirmintation to see how people would react on seeing a fully cgi anime series but if the series is populer enough it might grant it another season which might fix certain stuff but as you said it would not be quiet the same as the original manga storyline or better yet they would see the initial results wait for more material to surface and could possibly re do it following the actual main storyline.

I didn't mean and disrespect on the contrary i find your opinions insitefull im just trying to highligh t some of the positive because people tend to focus more on the negative when it comes to this sort of stuff

And regarding of the former mentioned reasons it did it's job.

once the manga begins its serializations in English translations in America next summer i will start to collect it and i am proud to say it will be my first manga series so even if they wont make a proper adaption or more anime which i hope i am wrong at the very least the one thing that came out good from this anime is that it helped me to be introduced to this series, so they did there job when it comes to promote the manga.

Also once this gets licensed for American release dubbed or not i will get the anime for my collection. it is worth having :)

Adaptations affording to cut corners because they are merely for the sake of spreading the word. Gee someone should have told that to the Attack on Titan people. They could have gotten so much further. Oh wait. They followed the source. And it saw an explosion in popularity above anything else they might have anticipated. If you honestly believe that Arpeggio's burst in popularity now would have been the same if they followed the manga to the letter you are sorely mistaken

Nov 10, 2013 9:22 AM

#91

Offline

Mar 2012

1672

Adaptations affording to cut corners because they are merely for the sake of spreading the word. Gee someone should have told that to the Attack on Titan people. They could have gotten so much further. Oh wait. They followed the source. And it saw an explosion in popularity above anything else they might have anticipated. If you honestly believe that Arpeggio's burst in popularity now would have been the same if they followed the manga to the letter you are sorely mistaken

LOL well if you think i am mistaken that it is my mistake ill accept it as that i don't really care what other's think i just voice my opinion and that is that :)

it is up to you to judge what is right and wrong in the end

Nov 10, 2013 10:13 AM

#92

Offline

Feb 2013

623

-ShadowClaw- said:

AnimageNeby said:

-ShadowClaw- said:
Alright look i am going to say few opinions regarding this anime as well as to try to resolve this argument that's been going on lately.

First of All not only i am watching this series i am also reading the Manga up to the current translated chapter and since i seeing both i can say that both of the series are good in each in their own respective way

While The Manga has a lot more material and a lot more detailed, the anime series is also good in another.

The Main problem i am seeing is that for one the anime series has not finished airing yet and even tough it already has some plot deviations from the Manga series you cant really say ho much the story will go until it actually finishes, you have to see at least where the plot is going first.

Let me point out a few things that are so far present in both in the Manga and the Anime and that which is present within the Manga only, those present with in the Anime only as well as those i think will be at least granted to see in the anime

Im putting spoiler tags for those who have not read the manga

So far even the only thing that is a real major concern from Manga storyline to be include within the anime storyline is the removal Hakugei 3 submarine and some of the characters although even tough they have not been introduced there is still for them to be introduced in some way even further into the storyline in another way it wouldn't be the first time for important characters to be introduced in a different fashion is it ? [/spoier]

Also:

What is most likely garunteed to be seen in the anime that is the same as the manga:

Not sure if this will be included in the anime:

Also if this series is successful enough it ould create a demand for more of the series to be produced so the major deviations would be covered than or better yet they would do a re-adaptation and follow the manga storyline more faithfully it wouldnt be the first time as a matter of fact i just saw a re-adaption of another series last summer.

So far the projections seem to be doing quite possitive with the sale proections steadily incrasing because even though this series has deviated some it is still good right now the sales are projected at 6.5k for the first volume which is not bad espcially since this series is in full CGI and is regarded cheaper to make than traditional series.

BOTTOM LINE: Accept the series as it is and dont throw in complaints if u have to let them be justified and pointed directly at the series not at each other. Also in my opinion This series so far at least has been good in its own way and thats my opinion ok

I never said the anime didn't have any redeeming qualities. If you'll note, in former posts I even indicated some scenes where they improved. However, it is also true their worldbuilding has suffered - and mind you, this is already true when relative minor details are missing, which aren't pivotal (yet), but nervertheless introduce some inconsistencies that aren't there in the manga. For more detail see my earlier post http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=685565&show=40#msg26193655. The whole change of the household of the girl and how they portrayed it in the anime may not be detrimental in proceeding with the main plot, but 'locally' it already produces some inconsistencies for the attentive viewer. As a whole, it makes less sense (in-story), and thus, the believability of the created 'universe' also lessens.

Also, as you point out, there are some really big changes too, and whole side-stories they've dropped. Even if they were to be introduced in following episodes, the introduction can not take place anymore as it was meant to be since...well, it has already passed. This is not to say what they replaced it with was bad; actually, I thought the submarine vs battleship fight was pretty well done. But that doesn't change the fact they omitted some rather large portions of side-stories and side-characters. This flesh(ed) out the world even further in the manga, and it showed it is NOT only about the sub and its crew.

And it also shows the theme of 'regaining the pride of humanity', since they managed to hold their own with a purely human-made vessel. This was explicitly mentioned in the manga; it's completely gone in the anime. Also, some things they've changed will become even a greater problem later on. For instance, in the manga they clearly made the point that the girl thought she had a grandfather (this was actually the reason she went out the house, escaping her 'father'). This means, in the manga this is an important drive for that character, and she actively seeks out her grandfather who she is told is on the 401. This is hardly coincidence. With other words, there is a strong case that in the future she will search for the 401 *because* she thinks her grandfather is on it. She lacks that motivation in the anime. Sure, you can replace that with some other, more contrived motivation, but that's just it: slowly but surely, you are undermining the natural flow of the manga, into something that makes a lot less sense, and is less believable. PS. I'm quite sure they showed in the manga how Takao arrived at that shipyard too (well, the fight she had just before), though maybe they used a flash-back for it, don't remember. So it doesn't really improve it in the anime, it's exactly the same. I would agree they improved a little on some character building in the anime, albeit with a loss of others. I also agree the series should have another season. The way they've been cutting things out shows that they did not believe or intended to have a 24-26 anime, or, as you say, they wanted to check the popularity out first. As far as your bottomline is concerned: I never complaint about others as a person, I merely contested the idea that the series does not need any of the deeper themes, plot, story and worldbuilding because it delivers 'action' (aka; battlefests and ecchy fanservice). What I said was, that if that was all there is to it to this series, the worldbuilding is - by definition - more superficial, especially compared to that of the manga. I can't just readily 'accept the series' as you say, as if there is no warranted criticism possible. Even though - as I also said - it has not come to a point where it becomes not worth to watch it anymore. The anime is still ok, but the slight improvements now and then of some minor scenes do not compensate for the loss of coherency, worldbuilding and negation of complete side-stories and other characters, and also the underlying *reasons* for some actions, aka: the (motivations of) politics and powerplays of the different actors. Granted, for a 12-epsiode series, you have to cut some things back, but once you start loosing the coherency of the portrayed world and introducing contradictions (in-story) and lessen your worldbuilding, you're going the wrong way.

I can totally understand from your perspective and it does make a lot of since, but i think this series was actually made for 2 things primarily and this is true for most anime based on material is to help promote the manga to gain more popularity and so it would boost the manga sales and

2 also as an expirmintation to see how people would react on seeing a fully cgi anime series but if the series is populer enough it might grant it another season which might fix certain stuff but as you said it would not be quiet the same as the original manga storyline or better yet they would see the initial results wait for more material to surface and could possibly re do it following the actual main storyline.

I didn't mean and disrespect on the contrary i find your opinions insitefull im just trying to highligh t some of the positive because people tend to focus more on the negative when it comes to this sort of stuff

And regarding of the former mentioned reasons it did it's job.

once the manga begins its serializations in English translations in America next summer i will start to collect it and i am proud to say it will be my first manga series so even if they wont make a proper adaption or more anime which i hope i am wrong at the very least the one thing that came out good from this anime is that it helped me to be introduced to this series, so they did there job when it comes to promote the manga.

Also once this gets licensed for American release dubbed or not i will get the anime for my collection. it is worth having :)

It's one of the better anime of this season, true. And I still think the anime is reasonably good and worth watching. But with a bit more attention to detail and avoiding contradictions, it could have been much better, and this is what I find a pity. Battlefests and ecchi-fanservice does not cut it - at least in my book - to compensate for the loss of worldbuilding and coherence the original story had. This does not mean that I dislike any of that action, it's just that to only focus on that, is to make the manga/anime superficial. Which was what I said before, and why some people got riled up because of that.

As far as your two points are concerned... ...how should I put it?

EVEN if you are 100% right about why they did it, the reasons you give here are meta-reasons. Aka, they have nothing to do with the story itself, they are introduced from a third-party viewpoint, for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the in-story quality of the anime. For me, such reasons have no worth whatsoever, since they only can be applied and derive their value (if any) in the meta-sense neither.

I've seen this reason being used by others for totally unrelated, other anime as well. I always wonder about why they think this matters *in regard of determining the value of the anime itself*. Yes, battlefests and ecchi-fanservice is always popular with the masses. The same masses, who cater for superficial entertainment and therefore this becomes far too ubiquitous (this is one of the main issues I have with it). Ergo, you see a disturbing trend of anime (well, and movies, series, and all other media) to cater to the greatest common denominator of the populace. And, indeed, the hoi palloi does not care for anything 'deeper', they're satisfied with 'what is presented', as long as it gives some slash-and-hack (blood) and, of course, ecchi-fansevice (sex). Violence and sex sells. True. We all know that. But really, isn't there more to long or strive for? Is that really the extend to which one must measure the quality of something?

If I WERE to go further down the line in evaluating it for the meta-reasons you gave, aka, the validity of those reasons from a meta-stance, I would have to say this: this sort of mentality is the downfall of any true masterpieces, me thinks. Publishers, sponsors and studios who are only interested in that (well, in only catering to the superficially interested because that sells the most), will only bring forth 13-in-a-dozen anime, full of battlefests and ecchi, indeed, and little else. I have been amazed and pleasantly surprised by the introduction of anime such as Shin Sekai Yori and Psycho Pass, last season. I thought it not possible anymore. But how long will such things last, if one is always going for the superficial, because it's popular? If more people DID care for more than shallow entertainment, high quality anime would still be made more too. And I know I can't blame uncritical people for being solely interested in shallow entertainment, just as one can't blame sheep because they're grazing as sheep, but it does disturb me a lot about the casual nonchalance, even pride, in which this is proclaimed to be the only thing that matters.

In any case, reasons such as 'it's to promote the manga' and 'it's to boost sales' and 'it's to promote CGI' have very little sway with me. Those are all reasons that lay outside the scope of the anime itself. What does that change anything about the inherent quality of the anime? If the anime is bad because of all the cuts they made in it, and the introduction of extra battlefests and fanservice, it STILL would be a bad, low-grade anime even if it sold like hot pancakes with brown sugar on top. Conversely, excellent series like Shin Sekai Yori, Psycho Pass and fate/zero would still be great pieces even if they didn't sell too good (and some don't, for the reasons I mentioned above). This shows that those meta-reasons have no intrinsic value in determining the quality of the anime as a whole, and story, background, plot, worldbuilding, characterisations, etc. in particular (all the elements that DO make or break the quality of a series).

As a reader/watcher - contrary to a business promoting it - no-one is interested whether the series sells well for determining how one likes that very same series. If you found a series to be utter crap, full of clichés and unoriginal content, catered to be popular to the masses...would you then suddenly find it a great piece of work if you heard it sold good? Crap that sells well remains crap, imho. If it lacks story and worldbuilding, it still lacks it, whether the lack thereof was intentionally made to boost sales, and *regardless* of whether it actually succeeded in selling more. So, yes, I understand those reasons, but they have no bearings (or at least, shouldn't have) in determining how good a series was in-story.

AnimageNebyNov 20, 2013 3:30 PM

Nov 10, 2013 10:19 AM

#93

Offline

Mar 2012

1672

Ok look Frankly i dont really now how the anime business works it is really to complicated.

All i want right now is to enjoy this anime series, hope for more of it to be made and for the manga to be continued to be made and that's it i am just saying that because this is starting to get a bit to complicated.

I just hope tomorrow's episode will be good and to hope that it shows certain things i do want animated and that's it

Nov 10, 2013 10:32 AM

#94

Offline

Feb 2013

623

-ShadowClaw- said:
Ok look Frankly i dont really now how the anime business works it is really to complicated.

All i want right now is to enjoy this anime series, hope for more of it to be made and for the manga to be continued to be made and that's it i am just saying that because this is starting to get a bit to complicated.

I just hope tomorrow's episode will be good and to hope that it shows certain things i do want animated and that's it

Don't misunderstand: it could be that you are right. Well, I don't know about this particular anime, but there is no doubt that some anime is butchered (or even specially made) EXACTLY for the reasons you mention. And more often than not it works too; there are a lot of mediocre series out there that sell pretty well.

The point is, is there anyone with a grain of discerning quality, that actually thinks the selling-numbers are to be the detrimental factor in deciding whether or not an anime should be considered good or not?

Imagine it: you watch an anime, and think it's worthless. Then you discover it's made that way so it sells more. And, indeed, it turns out it actually sells. Are you now going to find that anime good and superbly done, in-story? No, because nothing in-story has changed.

That was what I was saying (and I think the other poster as well, though he came off a bit undiplomatic).

It's not that your reasons couldn't be right, from a meta-stance. It's that they are irrelevant in determining the in-story quality of an anime.

AnimageNebyNov 10, 2013 11:28 AM

Nov 10, 2013 12:16 PM

#95

Offline

Feb 2013

623

Darklight0303 said:

-ShadowClaw- said:

AnimageNeby said:

-ShadowClaw- said:
Alright look i am going to say few opinions regarding this anime as well as to try to resolve this argument that's been going on lately.

First of All not only i am watching this series i am also reading the Manga up to the current translated chapter and since i seeing both i can say that both of the series are good in each in their own respective way

While The Manga has a lot more material and a lot more detailed, the anime series is also good in another.

The Main problem i am seeing is that for one the anime series has not finished airing yet and even tough it already has some plot deviations from the Manga series you cant really say ho much the story will go until it actually finishes, you have to see at least where the plot is going first.

Let me point out a few things that are so far present in both in the Manga and the Anime and that which is present within the Manga only, those present with in the Anime only as well as those i think will be at least granted to see in the anime

Im putting spoiler tags for those who have not read the manga

So far even the only thing that is a real major concern from Manga storyline to be include within the anime storyline is the removal Hakugei 3 submarine and some of the characters although even tough they have not been introduced there is still for them to be introduced in some way even further into the storyline in another way it wouldn't be the first time for important characters to be introduced in a different fashion is it ? [/spoier]

Also:

What is most likely garunteed to be seen in the anime that is the same as the manga:

Not sure if this will be included in the anime:

Also if this series is successful enough it ould create a demand for more of the series to be produced so the major deviations would be covered than or better yet they would do a re-adaptation and follow the manga storyline more faithfully it wouldnt be the first time as a matter of fact i just saw a re-adaption of another series last summer.

So far the projections seem to be doing quite possitive with the sale proections steadily incrasing because even though this series has deviated some it is still good right now the sales are projected at 6.5k for the first volume which is not bad espcially since this series is in full CGI and is regarded cheaper to make than traditional series.

BOTTOM LINE: Accept the series as it is and dont throw in complaints if u have to let them be justified and pointed directly at the series not at each other. Also in my opinion This series so far at least has been good in its own way and thats my opinion ok

I never said the anime didn't have any redeeming qualities. If you'll note, in former posts I even indicated some scenes where they improved. However, it is also true their worldbuilding has suffered - and mind you, this is already true when relative minor details are missing, which aren't pivotal (yet), but nervertheless introduce some inconsistencies that aren't there in the manga. For more detail see my earlier post http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=685565&show=40#msg26193655. The whole change of the household of the girl and how they portrayed it in the anime may not be detrimental in proceeding with the main plot, but 'locally' it already produces some inconsistencies for the attentive viewer. As a whole, it makes less sense (in-story), and thus, the believability of the created 'universe' also lessens.

Also, as you point out, there are some really big changes too, and whole side-stories they've dropped. Even if they were to be introduced in following episodes, the introduction can not take place anymore as it was meant to be since...well, it has already passed. This is not to say what they replaced it with was bad; actually, I thought the submarine vs battleship fight was pretty well done. But that doesn't change the fact they omitted some rather large portions of side-stories and side-characters. This flesh(ed) out the world even further in the manga, and it showed it is NOT only about the sub and its crew.

And it also shows the theme of 'regaining the pride of humanity', since they managed to hold their own with a purely human-made vessel. This was explicitly mentioned in the manga; it's completely gone in the anime. Also, some things they've changed will become even a greater problem later on. For instance, in the manga they clearly made the point that the girl thought she had a grandfather (this was actually the reason she went out the house, escaping her 'father'). This means, in the manga this is an important drive for that character, and she actively seeks out her grandfather who she is told is on the 401. This is hardly coincidence. With other words, there is a strong case that in the future she will search for the 401 *because* she thinks her grandfather is on it. She lacks that motivation in the anime. Sure, you can replace that with some other, more contrived motivation, but that's just it: slowly but surely, you are undermining the natural flow of the manga, into something that makes a lot less sense, and is less believable. PS. I'm quite sure they showed in the manga how Takao arrived at that shipyard too (well, the fight she had just before), though maybe they used a flash-back for it, don't remember. So it doesn't really improve it in the anime, it's exactly the same. I would agree they improved a little on some character building in the anime, albeit with a loss of others. I also agree the series should have another season. The way they've been cutting things out shows that they did not believe or intended to have a 24-26 anime, or, as you say, they wanted to check the popularity out first. As far as your bottomline is concerned: I never complaint about others as a person, I merely contested the idea that the series does not need any of the deeper themes, plot, story and worldbuilding because it delivers 'action' (aka; battlefests and ecchy fanservice). What I said was, that if that was all there is to it to this series, the worldbuilding is - by definition - more superficial, especially compared to that of the manga. I can't just readily 'accept the series' as you say, as if there is no warranted criticism possible. Even though - as I also said - it has not come to a point where it becomes not worth to watch it anymore. The anime is still ok, but the slight improvements now and then of some minor scenes do not compensate for the loss of coherency, worldbuilding and negation of complete side-stories and other characters, and also the underlying *reasons* for some actions, aka: the (motivations of) politics and powerplays of the different actors. Granted, for a 12-epsiode series, you have to cut some things back, but once you start loosing the coherency of the portrayed world and introducing contradictions (in-story) and lessen your worldbuilding, you're going the wrong way.

I can totally understand from your perspective and it does make a lot of since, but i think this series was actually made for 2 things primarily and this is true for most anime based on material is to help promote the manga to gain more popularity and so it would boost the manga sales and

2 also as an expirmintation to see how people would react on seeing a fully cgi anime series but if the series is populer enough it might grant it another season which might fix certain stuff but as you said it would not be quiet the same as the original manga storyline or better yet they would see the initial results wait for more material to surface and could possibly re do it following the actual main storyline.

I didn't mean and disrespect on the contrary i find your opinions insitefull im just trying to highligh t some of the positive because people tend to focus more on the negative when it comes to this sort of stuff

And regarding of the former mentioned reasons it did it's job.

once the manga begins its serializations in English translations in America next summer i will start to collect it and i am proud to say it will be my first manga series so even if they wont make a proper adaption or more anime which i hope i am wrong at the very least the one thing that came out good from this anime is that it helped me to be introduced to this series, so they did there job when it comes to promote the manga.

Also once this gets licensed for American release dubbed or not i will get the anime for my collection. it is worth having :)

Adaptations affording to cut corners because they are merely for the sake of spreading the word. Gee someone should have told that to the Attack on Titan people. They could have gotten so much further. Oh wait. They followed the source. And it saw an explosion in popularity above anything else they might have anticipated. If you honestly believe that Arpeggio's burst in popularity now would have been the same if they followed the manga to the letter you are sorely mistaken

Well, I can't say he wasn't right that those meta-reasons are sometimes applied. They often are. And I'm not even claiming those reasons are wrong on themselves. They just don't matter in evaluating an anime.

This is true even if the meta-reasons would be considered good and valuable. After all, it's not intrinsically bad trying to sell your anime or manga as well as possible, or using it as an experiment to promote (good) CGI and it certainly wouldn't be bad if it lead to another animation/adaptation hereafter...only it has no bearing on the story and appreciation of the anime itself, one way or the other. As a rule of thumb, I would say: if one wants to promote and sell, use marketing for it, and do not cut corners in the endproduct, in this case the anime, to try to achieve that. And if an animestudio IS using their anime only as a marketing tool and nothing more, then it should not be treated else, and get no more appreciation, then just another marketingtool neither. But personally, when I watch an anime, I want to see a good anime, not an advertisement. This holds true even - or especially - if the company producing it is more interested in experimenting with CGI or promoting the manga or something else, or is only interested in maximising their profit. This is all understandable from their stance mayhaps, but it still changes nothing about the anime, and how one should appreciate it for what it actually is. If it's good, it's good, and if it's bad, it's bad, whatever the company or studio tried to achieve with it for their own purposes. All those meta-reasons can't be used as a valid excuse (in claiming this makes it good) to cut corners or to deliver mediocre anime that only focusses on superficial entertainment, thus. Ofcourse, if the anime is good, and they still achieves all of their meta-goals too, the better. If it goes to the detriment of the quality, however, those meta-reasons suck and can't excuse the lack of quality.

As I said: a low-standard anime doesn't become good because making it crappy made it (or the manga) sell more, nor because it tried to promote CGI, or it tried to get another series. Those reasons have nothing to do with the appreciation of the anime in-story (aka, how it is portrayed and presented as the 'universe' of the anime). The story/anime does not become more or less compelling because DVD's sell more or less, after all.

I think we both agree on that.

That said, I think this particular anime is still reasonably good. They made some errors when cutting out stuff, and introduced some inconsistencies that weren't originally there, but as of yet, it's still quite palatable as a whole.

AnimageNebyNov 10, 2013 1:47 PM

Nov 10, 2013 5:13 PM

#96

ToG25thBaam

Offline

Jun 2011

13727

A good episode, but bad for the whole series which tried to be serious, but Haruna and Kirishima reduced to.. well you know.. And Takao too.. what's with her bits, and she got hit so cutely? -.-

Honobono Log - best slice of life short
--------------------------------------------
most kawaii loli overlord
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Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control

Nov 10, 2013 6:56 PM

#97

Exaccus

Offline

Jan 2013

1124

So much TL;DR in here.

Salmon is delicious.

Nov 11, 2013 12:04 AM

#98

Offline

Feb 2013

623

Exaccus said:
So much TL;DR in here.

And so much truth is in there too!

:-)

Nov 11, 2013 8:38 AM

#99

Exaccus

Offline

Jan 2013

1124

AnimageNeby said:

Exaccus said:
So much TL;DR in here.

And so much truth is in there too!

:-)

Lies and heresy.

Salmon is delicious.

Nov 11, 2013 10:59 AM

#100