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Effeminate male chars

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09-02-13, 2:11 AM

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I can understand why people would call Shinji and Renton whiny, but under-developed?
 
09-02-13, 2:11 AM

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Red_Keys said:
baki502 said:
Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
But when you have other emo characters that are exccesive with their annoying emotions ( they just have to remind you in every episode how ''miserable and sad'' their life is, just constant whining) and they are never developed properly, it's no wonder people dislike them.
Like who specifically?

Shinji from NGE, Yuki in first half of Mirai Nikki, (insert every second teenager that faces problems here).

I came up with 3 of the top of my head and I am bad with remembering characters...
And those are horrible examples (Never seen Eureka Seven), because they experience incredibly traumatic events.

Sorry, but evading murder and having expectations of unfair and monstrous proportion put onto you ≠ "normal problems teenagers face".

You still dont whine all the time. There is a point where you have to man up and face it. I am sorry but what exactly is traumatic for Shinji? He gets the chance to pilot a fucking giant robot, I would never miss that chance and I dont even care if I died doing so. Renton is a prime example tough since he is in a kind of similar position as Shinji but does not whine about having ot pilot a mech (he enjoys it actuallly) but whines all the time because of his socialization failures with humans and how dumb he was he said or didnt say that just to fuck up again next time.
Yuki from Mirai Nikki is I guess the only one that has legit big problems and he mans up later on but he still whines a whole lot till he does. And since when did whining save your life? What use is there to whining if you fear for your life? If it werent for the power of the mc most characters would die pretty fast cause instead of fighting or trying to change something they whine and expect others to do stuff for them.
 
09-02-13, 2:12 AM

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agaffe said:
I can understand why people would call Shinji and Renton whiny, but under-developed?

No one said that.
 
09-02-13, 2:13 AM

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baki502 said:
I am sorry but what exactly is traumatic for Shinji? He gets the chance to pilot a fucking giant robot
Hahaha, grow up.
 
09-02-13, 2:14 AM

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baki502 said:
Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
But when you have other emo characters that are exccesive with their annoying emotions ( they just have to remind you in every episode how ''miserable and sad'' their life is, just constant whining) and they are never developed properly, it's no wonder people dislike them.
Like who specifically?

Shinji from NGE, Renton from Eureka Seven, Yuki in first half of Mirai Nikki, (insert every second teenager that faces problems here).

I came up with 3 of the top of my head and I am bad with remembering characters...

baki502 said:
No one said that.
 
09-02-13, 2:15 AM

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Red_Keys said:
baki502 said:
I am sorry but what exactly is traumatic for Shinji? He gets the chance to pilot a fucking giant robot
Hahaha, grow up.

Id rather die young and had the chance to pilot that thing ;).

Edit: And i am not even a fan of mecha shows but mechs themselves are pretty damn cool if they were real.
 
09-02-13, 2:15 AM

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Moe boys are my guilty pleasure.
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion.
 
09-02-13, 2:16 AM

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I also with I rather lived in the 1910's and got drafted in WW1, so I could fight in the trenches, because guns are so kewl!!
 
09-02-13, 2:18 AM

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baki502 said:
agaffe said:
I can understand why people would call Shinji and Renton whiny, but under-developed?

No one said that.


This thread isn't about how developed characters are. Infact I agree that showing characters reacting this way usually give them more depth and make them easier to relate to and more "human". The problem is these traits are seen as more feminine traits and the characters are male. While objectively theres nothing wrong with this, in the context of this thread, they're acting in a more feminine way, as opposed to how a male would stereotypically handle a situation.
 
09-02-13, 2:19 AM

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Red_Keys said:
I also with I rather lived in the 1910's and got drafted in WW1, so I could fight in the trenches, because guns are so kewl!!

If you write in Sarcasm please make it less obvious cause it kind of looses its effect when its so obvious.

And i am sorry for not having the same mindset as you and being different. What a horrible thing to do right?
 
09-02-13, 2:19 AM

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battosai-01 said:

Satoshi (NHK)- Same as above, this makes for a more relatable character though and works better considering the genre.

What. I don't think he fits.
Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
But when you have other emo characters that are exccesive with their annoying emotions ( they just have to remind you in every episode how ''miserable and sad'' their life is, just constant whining) and they are never developed properly, it's no wonder people dislike them.
Like who specifically?

Shu, Renton, Yuki, Shinji and other Shinji clones. I guess compared to the others, Renton had decent development but that doesn't say much.
How many terrorist organizations have you been forced to become the main pawn of?

How is this relevant? you speak as if that was the only time where he acted like that. I don't really remember Shu that much since I didn't really care for him but he was constantly whining or being depressed with a sad look on his face whenever he faced even the tiniest of problems. He wasn't only ''emo'' when he was confronted with danger ( i.e Inori and that blonde dude, his friend, his everyday life, his talk with Haru when she slapped him ?, etc) he was melancholic before the terrorist thing happened. I think the only time that I empathized with him is when a certain character died.

His character development is hilarious though, emo > hitler > Jesus. Now that's quality writing.
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09-02-13, 2:21 AM

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tsudman said:
battosai-01 said:

Satoshi (NHK)- Same as above, this makes for a more relatable character though and works better considering the genre.

What. I don't think he fits.
Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
But when you have other emo characters that are exccesive with their annoying emotions ( they just have to remind you in every episode how ''miserable and sad'' their life is, just constant whining) and they are never developed properly, it's no wonder people dislike them.
Like who specifically?

Shu, Renton, Yuki, Shinji and other Shinji clones. I guess compared to the others, Renton had decent development but that doesn't say much.
How many terrorist organizations have you been forced to become the main pawn of?

How is this relevant? you speak as if that was the only time where he acted like that. I don't really remember Shu that much since I didn't really care for him but he was constantly whining or being depressed with a sad look on his face whenever he faced even the tiniest of problems. He wasn't only ''emo'' when he was confronted with danger ( i.e Inori and that blonde dude, his friend, his everyday life, his talk with Haru when she slapped him ?, etc) he was melancholic before the terrorist thing happened. I think the only time that I empathized with him is when a certain character died.

His character development is hilarious though, emo > hitler > Jesus. Now that's quality writing.
You should pay closer attention to the shows you watch :/

There is a reason for his antisocial behavior. A reason that is crucial to the story, actually. Like, impossible to miss.
 
09-02-13, 2:24 AM

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battosai-01 said:


The idea that we can gauge how a male would stereotypically handle a situation is what I disagree with, though. They may be not handling the situation in a way that society deems manly, but I haven't seen any indicator that being manly is the stereotypical male response.

Maybe I'm just surrounded by bitches.
 
09-02-13, 2:25 AM

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Red_Keys said:

There is a reason for his antisocial behavior.

Reasons dont make them less whiny. As I mentioned before crying does not change anything and it does not help. So there is not a "real" reason to be whiny ever, and it depends on the character how they act. Some would act and do something instead of whining, other would go into silent desperation aka they dont give a fuck what happens anymore and just give up and then there is the group that constantly has to bitch out loud about it. And these are the kind of character we are talking about now. Bad situation or big problem does not mean you HAVE to bitch or that it is a logical consequence. If the character is not bitchy or whiny he wouldnt be whiny trough hardships either.
Modified by baki502, 09-02-13, 2:34 AM
 
09-02-13, 2:34 AM

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baki502 said:

Reasons dont make them less whiny. As I mentioned before crying does not change anything and it does not help. So there is not a "real" reason to be whiny ever, and it depends on the character how they act. Some would act and do something instead of whining, other would go into silent desperation aka they dont give a fuck what happens anymore and just give up and then there is the group that constantly has to bitch out loud about it. And these are the kind of character we are talking about now. Bad situation or big problem does not mean you HAVE to bitch or that it is a logical consequence. If the character is not bitchy or whiny he wouldnt be trough hardships either.

I agree, the problem is that it's constant. Okay we get it, we don't need to hear and read the same monologue describing your shitty life, a 100 time in the same episode. Having reasons like you said doesn't it make it any less whiny or obnoxious. Why should I relate to a character like that? I don't think if I were in Shinji or Shu shoes I would constantly whine and be angsty and depressed for the majority of the show, at some point I would try to adapt to my terrible situation like a normal human being will eventually do. Constant crying won't improve your situation, you are better off killing yourself. And from the characters I mentioned, I believe that only Yuki's situation is that terrible.
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09-02-13, 2:36 AM

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tsudman said:
And that is? his father? I don't remember.
Hahahaha xD

baki502 said:
Reasons dont make them less whiny. As I mentioned before crying does not change anything and it does not help. So there is not a "real" reason to be whiny ever, and it depends on the character how they act. Some would act and do something instead of whining, other would go into silent desperation aka they dont give a fuck what happens anymore and just give up and then there is the group that constantly has to bitch out loud about it. And these are the kind of character we are talking about now. Bad situation or big problem does not mean you HAVE to bitch or that it is a logical consequence. If the character is not bitchy or whiny he wouldnt be trough hardships either.
Crying is a typical human response to emotional stress. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=657859&show=0#msg24876641

And what exactly do you mean by whining? Like, complaining? Talking about their problems?
 
09-02-13, 2:40 AM

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Red_Keys said:
tsudman said:
And that is? his father? I don't remember.
Hahahaha xD

baki502 said:
Reasons dont make them less whiny. As I mentioned before crying does not change anything and it does not help. So there is not a "real" reason to be whiny ever, and it depends on the character how they act. Some would act and do something instead of whining, other would go into silent desperation aka they dont give a fuck what happens anymore and just give up and then there is the group that constantly has to bitch out loud about it. And these are the kind of character we are talking about now. Bad situation or big problem does not mean you HAVE to bitch or that it is a logical consequence. If the character is not bitchy or whiny he wouldnt be trough hardships either.
Crying is a typical human response to emotional stress. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=657859&show=0#msg24876641

And what exactly do you mean by whining? Like, complaining? Talking about their problems?


Whining = crying/complaining about their problems in an unproductive manner.

Nothing speaks against talking about your problem to someone who then gives you advice to solve your problem. But the kind that just cry and dont even want advice or anything just crying for the sake of it annoy the hell out of me. Maybe its because I am more of a logical person than an emotional and I see no logic in crying since its unproductive that I cant relate to whiny characters...
 
09-02-13, 2:43 AM

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baki502 said:
Whining = crying/complaining about their problems in an unproductive manner.
Kind of like what you're doing in this topic? :S

baki502 said:
Nothing speaks against talking about your problem to someone who then gives you advice to solve your problem.
Whining, on a psychological level, is exactly this. You are voicing, and as a result bringing attention to, your problems with the hope of getting rid of them. That's what any instance of complaining is. Ever.

baki502 said:
But the kind that just cry and dont even want advice or anything just crying for the sake of it annoy the hell out of me. Maybe its because I am more of a logical person than an emotional and I see no logic in crying since its unproductive that I cant relate to whiny characters...
http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=657859&show=0#msg24876641
 
09-02-13, 2:45 AM

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Red_Keys said:
I also with I rather lived in the 1910's and got drafted in WW1, so I could fight in the trenches, because guns are so kewl!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRv56gsqkzs

Look at these World War 1 veterans shivering and whining away from their problems like cowards. What effeminate pussies! Why cant they be like real men!!!
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09-02-13, 2:46 AM

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I noticed that Kaiji Yuki really does make the characters more annoying, whinny and obnoxious and somewhat more feminine ( Shu, Eren, Haru from accel world, etc)
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09-02-13, 2:47 AM

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Red_Keys said:
baki502 said:
Whining = crying/complaining about their problems in an unproductive manner.
Kind of like what you're doing in this topic? :S

baki502 said:
Nothing speaks against talking about your problem to someone who then gives you advice to solve your problem.
Whining, on a psychological level, is exactly this. You are voicing, and as a result bringing attention to, your problems with the hope of getting rid of them. That's what any instance of complaining is. Ever.

baki502 said:
But the kind that just cry and dont even want advice or anything just crying for the sake of it annoy the hell out of me. Maybe its because I am more of a logical person than an emotional and I see no logic in crying since its unproductive that I cant relate to whiny characters...
http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=657859&show=0#msg24876641


Not quite. The difference is I bring arguments and try to have a discussion while whiny characters just dont want to hear anything other than compassion for their problems.

And I never said I was emotionless I just said that I tend to act on thinking and what my brain deems the best solution rather than what my emotions are.
 
09-02-13, 2:50 AM

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dankickyou said:
Red_Keys said:
I also with I rather lived in the 1910's and got drafted in WW1, so I could fight in the trenches, because guns are so kewl!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRv56gsqkzs

Look at these World War 1 veterans shivering and whining away from their problems like cowards. What effeminate pussies! Why cant they be like real men!!!

Theese men arent pussies. They have seen real terror and they dont even whine about it. What I see are men where their bodies react against their will not men that whine deliberately.
 
09-02-13, 2:56 AM

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baki502 said:


While I see what you're saying (I can't stand Yuki), having a more-fleshed out story is more important to me than having likeable characters or unrealistic development. It's up for cebate whether Mirrai Nikki had a fleshed-out story, though.

The initial question of why these characters exist, can only be answered on a case-by-case basis, because this is too large of a phenomenon to really pin down a cause. Take Shinji, for example. It's said that many of the character's mental problems stem from the director's problems, but this doesn't seem like something that would be a common theme.
 
09-02-13, 3:01 AM

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baki502 said:
Not quite. The difference is I bring arguments and try to have a discussion while whiny characters just dont want to hear anything other than compassion for their problems.
Your argument is you just whining about characters not behaving in the way you want them to behave. And seeing as how this forum conversation is going to do absolutely nothing resulting in the change of how male characters are written, I'd say it's pretty much you seeking compassion for your problem, instead of actually solving it. :S

baki502 said:
And I never said I was emotionless I just said that I tend to act on thinking and what my brain deems the best solution rather than what my emotions are.
Probably because you've never been in a situation where your emotions were under severe stress.
 
09-02-13, 3:04 AM

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baki502 said:

Theese men arent pussies. They have seen real terror and they dont even whine about it. What I see are men where their bodies react against their will not men that whine deliberately.

Run away crying when seeing a uniform, jumping under the bed and crying when hearing the word bomb. What sissies! Jesus, even Shinji doesn't jump under the bed when he hears the word Angel.

Red_Keys said:
baki502 said:
Not quite. The difference is I bring arguments and try to have a discussion while whiny characters just dont want to hear anything other than compassion for their problems.
Your argument is you just whining about characters not behaving in the way you want them to behave. And seeing as how this forum conversation is going to do absolutely nothing resulting in the change of how male characters are written, I'd say it's pretty much you seeking compassion for your problem, instead of actually solving it. :S


LOL
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09-02-13, 8:48 AM

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Well. I actually prefer my men to be effeminate. I find it really attractive, when done right.

I think Japan has some social thing where men try and be more effeminate (I read it on wikipedia, grain of salt). So, maybe that's it?

Edit: I also enjoy crying about my problems. A lot. As in, let me write a novel about my feelings. I can't stand to be in a public place for too long, because I have a problem with expressing emotions in public.
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09-02-13, 8:57 AM

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Slayermaster said:


Edit: I also enjoy crying about my problems. A lot. As in, let me write a novel about my feelings. I can't stand to be in a public place for too long, because I have a problem with expressing emotions in public.

:D
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09-02-13, 9:16 AM

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There are cultural reasons for it. It's not just in anime. But in any case I don't mind it adds more variety.
 
09-02-13, 9:20 AM

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dankickyou said:
Red_Keys said:
I also with I rather lived in the 1910's and got drafted in WW1, so I could fight in the trenches, because guns are so kewl!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRv56gsqkzs

Look at these World War 1 veterans shivering and whining away from their problems like cowards. What effeminate pussies! Why cant they be like real men!!!

That video is so gay. Watch the manly version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aY2Q6nEh34
 
09-02-13, 9:24 AM

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Someone tell OP that traps are intended for men to fap to.

I wanna see his reaction.
 
09-02-13, 9:25 AM

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you mean like Griffith, Reinhard, Albafica? those guys wouldnt be as awesome if they didnt look bishonen or acted in a effeminate way, so no i dont mind this but i do dislike whiny teenagers
 
09-02-13, 9:38 AM

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I don't particularly like feminine males, but I don't mind them either. I am more bothered by this persisting concept that real men can't be sensitive or have frail bodies or whatever.

And I don't think they are the most prominent in the industry. They exist, but why not? There are people like that, so why not characters?

But when they pack the series full with that type, to cater to girls and start a fad, I won't watch it, because it's obviously not my cup of tea.
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09-02-13, 11:03 AM

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Anime needs more attractive bearded characters
 
09-02-13, 11:17 AM

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i don`t like trap characters or effimnate.
 
09-02-13, 12:07 PM

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I like both effeminate boys and manly men men.
 
09-02-13, 12:27 PM

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The only effeminate character I can stand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnrfV6R9PYk

BRING IT ON!
 
09-02-13, 12:36 PM

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SetsukoHara said:
The only effeminate character I can stand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnrfV6R9PYk

BRING IT ON!

Bon-chan is freaking amazing and in a league of his own.
I pity the fool who doesn't like Bon Clay.
 
09-02-13, 3:58 PM

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Vita_Aeterna said:
Anime needs more attractive bearded characters

This. Too many shaved pussies in anime. Real men have beards of epic proportions.
 
09-02-13, 10:06 PM

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baki502 said:
Too many shaved pussies in anime. Real men have beards of epic proportions.

My naturally perverted mind drifted into quite the scene with your first sentence.
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09-02-13, 10:44 PM

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baki502 said:
Vita_Aeterna said:
Anime needs more attractive bearded characters

This. Too many shaved pussies in anime. Real men have beards of epic proportions.
baki502 said:
Vita_Aeterna said:
Anime needs more attractive bearded characters

This. Too many shaved pussies in anime. Real men have beards of epic proportions.

Epic proportions? Nah man, I'm talking a heavy stubble beard or light stubble beard. Literally no one in anime has that, for two reasons I'm guessing,
1.Asians can't grow near-cheek level beard
2.Must be hard to create from a character design standpoint
 
09-06-13, 3:57 PM

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I am typically glad to see characters who are not too stereotypical. I've had enough of emotionally repressed male characters who only care about getting stronger/more powerful. I've had enough of overly emotional female characters who only care about "girly things," talking about emotions, and chasing after male characters. It's fine if that is their starting point and they develop as a character, but if that is essentially all there ever is to them... they're pretty bland, more often than not.

For me, a character who has some stereotypical traits of both genders is more believable and relatable. Most of the people I know have a combination of masculine and feminine traits, and I certainly fall under this category as well. In general, I view gender stereotypes as limiting at best and damaging at worst. I would rather people feel free to be themselves without worrying about whether they might be criticized for being "unfeminine" or "unmanly" if they act in a certain way. Consequently, I also like seeing all sorts of characters: characters who are very masculine or very feminine, characters who are bit more one than the other, and characters so balanced between the two that they are androgynous.

Variety and individuality in characters is what I find most interesting, so yes, I do have an appreciation for effeminate male characters in anime.
 
09-06-13, 4:15 PM

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Vita_Aeterna said:
baki502 said:
Vita_Aeterna said:
Anime needs more attractive bearded characters

This. Too many shaved pussies in anime. Real men have beards of epic proportions.
baki502 said:
Vita_Aeterna said:
Anime needs more attractive bearded characters

This. Too many shaved pussies in anime. Real men have beards of epic proportions.

Epic proportions? Nah man, I'm talking a heavy stubble beard or light stubble beard. Literally no one in anime has that, for two reasons I'm guessing,
1.Asians can't grow near-cheek level beard
2.Must be hard to create from a character design standpoint
So what about guys like Shanks, Gildarts, Starrk, Shunsui, Count of Monte Cristo from Gankutsuou?
 
09-06-13, 4:18 PM

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Shanks and Gildarts are the same person.
 
09-06-13, 4:19 PM

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Jesus, not this thread again.
 
09-06-13, 4:20 PM

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battosai-01 said:
Red_Keys said:
Male characters that express emotion??

What are they, human or something? Give me a break.


Obviously you didn't bother to read my post. I'm not saying they don't have emotions, but rather they would express them selves in a more feminine way. Men are often seen as more aggressive and confrontational, so it's expected for them to face their problems head-on (physical violence, direct conflicts). While females are more reclusive and rather deal with their emotions in a more roundabout way by keeping them inside (getting depressed/crying), or projecting them onto other people (bitching/whining). Obviously not all men or women act this way, these are just the general stereotypes associated with both genders. Yet anime seem to always lean more toward the the feminine way for both males and females. Also manly tears in GAR anime is usually reserved for mourning (which is easily excusable) or admiration (which is hard to explain... I guess it would be like an extreme form of respect)
Lol it's a known fact women are better at expressing their feelings than us guys. Men are the ones most likely to repress emotion. The only emotions we can fully display and not be looked down upon by society are happiness and anger.
cub said:
Shanks and Gildarts are the same person.
Oda doesn't seem to think so or he would of sued Mashima already.
Modified by DrGeroCreation, 09-06-13, 4:25 PM
 
09-06-13, 4:34 PM

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cub said:
Shanks and Gildarts are the same person.


:3
 
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