Ryou said: It's not on the people who like it, rather the people who praise it as excellent without arguing the points that provide legitimate criticism. I think a better question would be "Why do people hate on others that like Naruto?" And also because zealous Naruto fans can't accept that opinion. |
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puppetmazter said: Obviously, not everyone hates Naruto. But the bad story cant be the reason, since it was hated way before it finished. I think that most people, who spent some time on Naruto dislike it for the following seemingly simple reason: PLOT HOLES! [....] You know, you sure took a lot of time to talk about plot holes without mentioning actual examples.. |
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Dragon said: IMO, Naruto does a lot wrong. Sasuke's development is all over the place, flip flopping allegiances. Plot twists make no sense and feel like asspulls (for example, if Itachi is good, why the fuck would he cast a genjutsu on his precious little brother that only the best medic in the world can heal? What if she died? Why even cast such a crippling thing? How is it not better to find a way to stay and protect the little brother?) Then it becomes preachy and hypocritical. Ex Naruto tells Neji that destiny doesn't matter...then Naruto is the chosen one selected to save the world. WTF way to stick to your themes Kishimoto. To keep the hold on his brother. This isn't some game, he can't just pretend to be evil and do the minimal of actions to do that. Itachi's genjutsu is nothing compared what he originally did to Sasuke in that night. Itachi being good was foreshadowed since he started appearing in the story. The very fact that he didn't kill Naruto, Jiraya or Sasuke, or Guy or Asuma or Kurenai is one of the early signs about his real intentions. That's not hypocritical, that's you not understanding what the confrontation between Neji and Naruto was about. What Naruto said wasn't that destiny doesn't exist, just that it doesn't matter, just having a destiny you don't want doesn't mean you should accept it, Which applies to Neji, as part of the branch family of Hyugua, a clan that is destiny is to be a sacrifice to the main family, and his conflict with his Father. That was Neji's problem. And Naruto couldn't accept the destiny, Neji said for him. The destiny of being a loser and nothing more. What did Naruto being the chosen one change? a prophecy is just a prediction of the future. It does not create the actions of the individual. Almost everything Naruto accomplished was by his own merit and struggle. Not because he was destined. |
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| the first series was good even with hella filler. shippuden was pretty average, with the exception of the akatsuki arc. |
╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭ |
| i stopped liking it after it went full sayajin mode without jutsus and everybody basically just flying through the air while shooting laser beams. which basically means after the sasuke vs itachi fight it just got stupid. with chunin exam still being the best arc of naruto (also best tournament arc in history of anime), because at that point everybody still used jutsu which let to epic fights. back then the NINJA anime still had ninja in it. in the end it was just "oh yeah theres a big ass tree and some stuff happens with the moon so i give all of you weak uninteresting side characters chakra so you all evolve to foxes which is really cool. oh yeah sasuke you have to be involved in one more plot twist which doesnt make sense at all, so we two can go in double sayajin flying laser beam mode to battle the end boss which can do some stuff with teleportation which we added so its cooler." end more and more plot twists and stuff which hasnt anything to do with the actual story in the beginning. the whole characters of naruto and sasuke are just stupid btw. |
Chimera-Ant Arc sucks A1-Pictures is great Lelouch is alive  |
tsudecimo said: You know, you sure took a lot of time to talk about plot holes without mentioning actual examples.. Yes, intentionally. I wanted to explain, why some people cannot take the series as it is, but rather feel offended by it. Actual examples are not needed. Suffice it to say that alot of haters used to care about the series, just like you. But apparently for different reasons. tsudecimo said: To keep the hold on his brother. This isn't some game, he can't just pretend to be evil and do the minimal of actions to do that. Itachi's genjutsu is nothing compared what he originally did to Sasuke in that night. Itachi being good was foreshadowed since he started appearing in the story. The very fact that he didn't kill Naruto, Jiraya or Sasuke, or Guy or Asuma or Kurenai is one of the early signs about his real intentions. This is a classic example. Why would you bend over backwards to make sense of this rubbish? The whole conversion of Itachi, from an unredeemable bad guy to a patriotc martyr, reeks of backtracking and plot holes. Itachis way to look after his brother and protect Konoha, his motives and decisions in general, theyre inexplicable to me. Hes not relatable. Actually, all the circumstances around the coup d'etat came out of nowhere and go against the established events, or are way too convenient . Madaras involvement, the Third Hokages stupidity, the Uchihas treeason, the events at the massacre, none of it seems logical. Theres a limit to suspension of disbelief. tsudecimo said: That's not hypocritical, that's you not understanding what the confrontation between Neji and Naruto was about. What Naruto said wasn't that destiny doesn't exist, just that it doesn't matter, just having a destiny you don't want doesn't mean you should accept it, Which applies to Neji, as part of the branch family of Hyugua, a clan that is destiny is to be a sacrifice to the main family, and his conflict with his Father. That was Neji's problem. And Naruto couldn't accept the destiny, Neji said for him. The destiny of being a loser and nothing more. Well, Neji ended up being sacrificed for Hinata. Whats the message there? tsudecimo said: What did Naruto being the chosen one change? a prophecy is just a prediction of the future. It does not create the actions of the individual. Almost everything Naruto accomplished was by his own merit and struggle. Not because he was destined. Destiny could be considered the result of a fulfilled prophecy. Since Narruto was about defying destiny, having him being the chosen one is hypocritical. Different story if the prophecies said Madara is going to succeed, but Naruto stopped him |
| @puppetmazter Explaining things as they are is apparently bending backwards to make sense of a very clear and obvious plotline. Tip for your future encounters: If you actually want to discuss something, it might be beneficial to not assert your opinion as the truth without even backing it up. And not go further into it by treating a counter points as ''bending backwards to explain rubbish''. The problem with you and other people that share you mentality when it comes to plotholes specifically is their poor understanding of the fundamentals of the term plot hole in the first place. Not every thing that you don't' understand in the story means it's a plot hole. A plot hole is just a contradiction of previous established events. People instead of trying to understand something they didn't like they just start crictizing it, blaming the story for their own poor/lack of understanding of embarrassingly obvious scenes/storylines. |
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tsudecimo said: @puppetmazter Explaining things as they are is apparently bending backwards to make sense of a very clear and obvious plotline. Tip for your future encounters: If you actually want to discuss something, it might be beneficial to not assert your opinion as the truth without even backing it up. And not go further into it by treating a counter points as ''bending backwards to explain rubbish''. The problem with you and other people that share you mentality when it comes to plotholes specifically is their poor understanding of the fundamentals of the term plot hole in the first place. Not every thing that you don't' understand in the story means it's a plot hole. A plot hole is just a contradiction of previous established events. People instead of trying to understand something they didn't like they just start crictizing it, blaming the story for their own poor/lack of understanding of embarrassingly obvious scenes/storylines. To me, Itachis plotline is everything but clear. If you are convinced and pleased with it, then you must be very lenient. Also, my opinion is just that: an opinion. I stated how I personally precieved the issue. Why I came to dislike the Naruto. Arguing about specific plot holes is kind of off-topic. Also, plot holes do include unlikely behaviour of characters. So whats wrong with criticizing? Are you afraid, that if you challenge one thing, you will end up questioning everything? Do you think the manga is flawless? You must have SOME issues. If you do, please share. The point is, every time you stop and question the plot, or as you put it, "try to understand it", it WILL take you out of the story. |
| I love Naruto though. It seems these days people always find a reason to hate on an anime... The authors aren't perfect, you know... :/ |
puppetmazter said: tsudecimo said: @puppetmazter Explaining things as they are is apparently bending backwards to make sense of a very clear and obvious plotline. Tip for your future encounters: If you actually want to discuss something, it might be beneficial to not assert your opinion as the truth without even backing it up. And not go further into it by treating a counter points as ''bending backwards to explain rubbish''. The problem with you and other people that share you mentality when it comes to plotholes specifically is their poor understanding of the fundamentals of the term plot hole in the first place. Not every thing that you don't' understand in the story means it's a plot hole. A plot hole is just a contradiction of previous established events. People instead of trying to understand something they didn't like they just start crictizing it, blaming the story for their own poor/lack of understanding of embarrassingly obvious scenes/storylines. To me, Itachis plotline is everything but clear. If you are convinced and pleased with it, then you must be very lenient. Also, my opinion is just that: an opinion. I stated how I personally precieved the issue. Why I came to dislike the Naruto. Arguing about specific plot holes is kind of off-topic. Also, plot holes do include unlikely behaviour of characters. So whats wrong with criticizing? Are you afraid, that if you challenge one thing, you will end up questioning everything? Do you think the manga is flawless? You must have SOME issues. If you do, please share. The point is, every time you stop and question the plot, or as you put it, "try to understand it", it WILL take you out of the story. I'm not lenient. I understand every nook and cranny about Itachi plotline. It's not really the fault of the manga if you didn't pay attention to numerous details that drove this plotline forward and explained it in retrospective. It's not off topic. Discussion doesn't start from nowhere. If you don't explain why you dislike the series, it makes the process of the thread/forums moot. Saying the series has a lot of plothole and not expanding on that point makes the statement meaningless for someone with the opposite view on the series. No it doesn't. Unlikely behavior is not the same as a clear contradictions because characters aren't inanimate elements of the story. They develop and change, and so does their actions. It's only in the instance of a character establishing and something and then they break it momentarily. Like if some character's motivation to win x fight is x reason, but suddenly their motivation and actions towards said fight is changed without any kind of development or change to the character or the story. Context matters. I said there is something wrong with criticizing something that doesn't have a fault, where the problem lies with the reader/viewer lack of understanding. Not criticism in general. There is valid criticism and there is invalid criticism. Where did I imply the manga was flawless? no work of fiction is flawless by default. Let alone a 700 chapter long story. I don't have issues, but cool random attack, guy. No? there aren't many instances where I was reading/watching Naruto where I didn't understand a scene or an event. And that's because I actually pay attention. When something goes over my head or I don't get it, I try researching to see if I forgot something or if there is an inconsistency on what I'm watching/reading, and that happens after I've read/watched it, so there isn't an actual pause in the experience, that and I'm not OCD. I don't go straight to the forums like a man child and scream ''ASSPULL! PLOTHOLES, OMFG'' |
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tsudecimo said: No it doesn't. Unlikely behavior is not the same as a clear contradictions because characters aren't inanimate elements of the story. If a character with a certain motivation could achieve his objective with an action, and the action is within his/ her means, yet doesn’t act for no comprehensible reason, then that’s a plot hole. tsudecimo said: I understand every nook and cranny about Itachi plotline. It's not really the fault of the manga if you didn't pay attention to numerous details that drove this plotline forward and explained it in retrospective Again, if the story is not thought out, then people will lose interest and stop paying attention. So yes, it’s the mangas fault. The plot twist, that made Itachi go from unredeemable bad guy to tragic hero is forced. As a result, Itachis past decisions and actions are incomprehensive. Some examples: So the dilemma is he had to kill his entire clan to prevent a civil war, even world war. Never mind promoting genocide, but was that the only way to go? Why didn’t he plead for the arrest of the conspirators? He’s capable of killing them, so why not arrest them? Why is the Hokage so incompetent all of a sudden? As an agent, Itachi was reporting directly to the Hokage, so why only tell him afterwards about his assignment from Danzou, when the deed is done, not prior? If he could threaten Danzou with leaking Intel on Konoha in order to protect Sasuke, why not use the same threat to keep Danzou in check? Did he have to kill every single man, woman and child? Why not just kill conspirators? If it was because of Madara, why would he even make a deal with the most dangerous person in the world? Why would he bring him into Konoha and close to the Kyuubi? How could he even trust him to keep his word and leave after the slaughter? Why didn’t Itachi alarm the Hokage that Madara was alive and planning revenge? Why not tell his own clan, forcing them to reconcile with Konoha, to face the mutual enemy? Was it necessary to torture his young brother, traumatize him for life, and tell him he has to kill his best friend? Its nonsense, now that Itachi is supposedly good. What if Sasuke killed a kid at school? What if he lost it and killed himself? Why burden the kid with taking revenge on his own brother? That used to make sense, when Itachi was a psychopath, but not anymore. Now hes supposed to kill Itachi so Sasuke can become a false hero in Konoha and what, live happily ever after? Hows that better than the truth? This logic is baffling to me. What was even the point of saving Sasukes, if he condemns him to a life full of suffering and hatred? If he wanted to protect Sasuke, why did he abandon him? How could he know for sure, that he was safe in Konoha? He couldn’t. Was spying on Akatsuki more important? If so, then why didn’t he provide Konoha with any Intel on the Aka members and their abilities? Did the Third Hokage forget to write it down? If he wanted Sasuke to get stronger, why didn’t he train him? Just take him along and lie about the massacre. Build his hatred towards something else, like Konoha, and when the time comes, tell him the truth. |
puppetmazter said: If he wanted to protect Sasuke, why did he abandon him? How could he know for sure, that he was safe in Konoha? He couldn’t. Was spying on Akatsuki more important? If so, then why didn’t he provide Konoha with any Intel on the Aka members and their abilities? Did the Third Hokage forget to write it down? That right there is the biggest indication on why Itachi's character was retconned post-Fated Brothers. If he were always a double agent, Hiruzen would've had an insightful understanding on the Akatsuki thus Jiraiya wouldn't have been trying to decipher his own intel in Part 1. And since it'd be Hiruzen who knew of it, this would've obviously been relayed to Kakashi in Part 1 (for Naruto's protection), meaning he wouldn't have been surprised when Jiraiya dropped the bombshell of their existence. |
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ziggy_Z said: That right there is the biggest indication on why Itachi's character was retconned post-Fated Brothers. If he were always a double agent, Hiruzen would've had an insightful understanding on the Akatsuki thus Jiraiya wouldn't have been trying to decipher his own intel in Part 1. And since it'd be Hiruzen who knew of it, this would've obviously been relayed to Kakashi in Part 1 (for Naruto's protection), meaning he wouldn't have been surprised when Jiraiya dropped the bombshell of their existence. That made me think: why would Itachi use Ameterasu and help Kisame escape Jirayas jutsu? |
tsudecimo said: You know, you sure took a lot of time to talk about plot holes without mentioning actual examples.. tsudecimo said: People instead of trying to understand something they didn't like they just start crictizing it, blaming the story for their own poor/lack of understanding of embarrassingly obvious scenes/storylines. tsudecimo said: I understand every nook and cranny about Itachi plotline. It's not really the fault of the manga if you didn't pay attention to numerous details that drove this plotline forward and explained it in retrospective. tsudecimo said: If you don't explain why you dislike the series, it makes the process of the thread/forums moot. Saying the series has a lot of plothole and not expanding on that point makes the statement meaningless for someone with the opposite view on the series. tsudecimo said: No? there aren't many instances where I was reading/watching Naruto where I didn't understand a scene or an event. And that's because I actually pay attention. When something goes over my head or I don't get it, I try researching to see if I forgot something or if there is an inconsistency on what I'm watching/reading, and that happens after I've read/watched it, so there isn't an actual pause in the experience, that and I'm not OCD. I don't go straight to the forums like a man child and scream ''ASSPULL! PLOTHOLES, OMFG'' Youve been nagging me for some examples until I finally gave in. So what happened? Are you going to share your opinion? Or is this case closed? |
tsudecimo said: Exactly this. This guy knows it.Because it's popular and most people hate it's fanbase. Character counts... |
 Live here in the now, chill with your buddy, Jambles. Mangalist Animelist FanFiction/My Writing |
| It was always a very inconsistent series to be honest. Part 1 is overrated and glorified by the fanbase, the Chunin Exams until Orochimaru's attack were boring and the Sasuke Retrieval arc was awful. The nostalgia is strong there. Part 2 wasn't perfect either, the last 100 chapters are dogshit, the second arc is really bad & Naruto while better than in Part 1 is still one of the weaker characters but there is a lot more great stuff in it. Akatsuki (love all the members, shit all over Orochimaru), more depth to Jiraya + Amegakure orphans tragic story, Kakashi's sad story which just makes me appreciate him more, the truth behind Itachi, Tobi being a badass mastermind etc. If only it remained as great as it was from the Hidan & Kakuzu arc to the Pain arc ending. That was the best stretch of the series If there is one thing that was consistent about this series, its that Sakura stayed a retard. From the first chapters to the very last. |
AssumingControlAug 4, 2016 10:02 AM
| I thought Naruto antics and decisions became uncharming and annoying, while Sasuke's illogical. Was Tobi's identity suppose to be obvious? Good if was, but he didn't pull threatening or interesting to me ever really. Was Sasuke's Konoha decision of doing the exact opposite of what his brother did *suppose* to be illogical? Was the anger suppose to cloud his judgement? Good if it was, but the emotional disillusion he faced didn't seem reasonable to me. Every single non-antagonist supporting character was completely shoved to the side for the vast majority of the second half until the finale. Were they suppose to be so lifeless? Was I suppose to stop caring about Konoha 12, Sai and Yamato? Every other supporting character became uninteresting or irrelevant. Was the revival of former antagonist and supporting characters at the end suppose to be so unimpactful and pointless? Like Kabuto, who just wanted to be a snake like Orichimaru..who's pointlessly alive by the way, and illogically switching sides to. But still, what I very personally *really* didn't like about Naruto was his neglect of the side characters until that mess of a final arc, his neglect of the world he built. So, wasted potential to just be generic, nonsensical bad Shounen is it's problem. Also part 1 might as well just be another series, the themes is entirely different. It doesn't even matter actually, aside from the beginning, which sets the foundation for Naruto character, though half of it's abandoned, and the end - which sets the mess of the second half to focus 50% on Sasuke. That's a big problem too. And the end of the Pain arc made everything so useless...worst moment of the series, if you ask me Cut the tremendously awful pacing, it's not *that* horrendous, just slightly horrendous, generic and uninteresting. |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
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