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Jun 28, 2013 4:23 PM
#1

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I – GENERAL RULES

1. Be friendly and respect your fellow club members. Do not call someone names or otherwise insult them for having a different opinion from your own.
2. Don't be dumb.
3. DO NOT BE DUMB. Common sense applies to the internet as well.
4. Read the rules & descriptions.
5. Read the rules & descriptions again if you are not sure. Ask the officers if you're still not sure after that.
6. Regarding the club description: Make sure you really understand what this club is about. Protip: The fine print matters. If you don’t agree with the club’s take on anime/manga, leave. We don’t want to hear permanent complaints about Naruto not being on the Enlightenment list.
7. Don't flame, bait or do both just because you feel like it, want to profile yourself, "want to see our reactions" and other redundant reasons.
8. Don’t spam.
9. Do not be overly subjective and too serious. Always remember to give reason and try to be friendly.
10. Please try to utilize the basic English grammar rules. Weeaboospeak does not count as English.
11. Please try to use spoiler and other appropriate tags for spoilers, large (amounts of) pictures, NSFW and similar content. Please specify what content are in the tags.
12. Do not force "elitisim" down the throats of others by posting our club/our lists on their profiles all the time/as an argument.
13. We have a three-strike system. Should you break any of the rules listed in this thread you will first be warned. Depending on the severity of your next offense you will get a strike. Three strikes warrants you a ban from the club.
14. If your username is stupid, Amberleh reserves the right to talk shit on you and not get any flack for it until you change it back or to something less objectively awful.


II – OFFICER RULES

1. Officers get appointed by unanimous vote from other officers after they have proven themselves to be trustworthy and contributing regulars.
2. Officers are the only ones who can issue strikes and bans. Bans will only be issued after the officers unanimously agreed to the decision.
3. If arguments about the relevance of or verdict on certain pieces of fiction in the club can't be resolved through normal means, officers have the right to take over and resolve the matter within their circle to prevent name-calling and other derailment.
4. They can also directly put nominees on either list if the outcome is clear and the majority agrees to such a proposal.
5. Officers are – after unanimous agreement – able to change the status of a title on both lists even after a repoll.
6. Officers can decide that a recent anime series can be polled/added despite not fulfilling the requirement of having a season passed after it finished airing.
7. Officers can also retract the member's voting rights for a temporary amount of time if they unanimously agree that the behaviour of said user is against the club's intentions.
8. Regardless of who you are dealing with, please respect both the club rules and the common netiquette.
9. Long periods of inactivity can lead to a retraction of the status.


III – ENLIGHTENMENT, RELATIONS & VOTING RULES

REMEMBER: Do not be overly subjective and too serious. Always remember to give reason and be friendly. Remember to read the club’s description. Understand that we are not really elitists. Misbehavior may warrant strikes/bans. This applies to EVERYTHING listed below.

A – ENLIGHTENMENT CAMP RULES AND PROCEDURE

1. Anyone can suggest a anime/manga in the respective thread with an explanation.
2. A group of regulars from the club will decide the final outcome of the anime or manga in question.
3. Anime titles need 8 total votes, no less than 5 positive and three negative, to become eligible for the voting process. Manga needs 5 total votes, no less than 3 positive and 2 negative to become eligible for the voting process.
4. When nominating titles for the e-list threads please include a short paragraph explanation backing up your reason for the nomination. This also extends to +1/-1 for a title.

For further elaboration on these rules, please go to the USEFUL LINKS section of the Official Rules thread.

IV – USEFUL LINKS

Lists
Anime & Manga Enlightenment Camps
Anime, Character & Manga Relations Threads
History of Polled Titles

Other Content Of Interest
Banners
Livestreams
Reviews

Old Threads Used For Reference
Admins & Officers

Elaboration on the Rules for the Enlightenment List





Please feel free to discuss the rules and anything related to it (for example officer appointments or voting procedures) in this thread. The same applies to problems with officer and user behaviour as well - we always have an open ear and listen to your concerns. Thank you for both reading and understanding. We hope you enjoy your stay in our club.

Sincerely,

The uber-officers.
Ducat_RevelAug 31, 2015 12:25 PM
Steel Ball Run anime when?
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Jun 28, 2013 5:33 PM
#2

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Dec 2012
404
Cool rules. I'm not a big voter. Nor am I a officer.
But, good rules.
Jun 28, 2013 5:41 PM
#3

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Apr 2009
5705
Thanks.
We will tweak some of the rules in the following days, depending both on your feedback and our impressions. Be sure to check these threads on a unregular basis to see what might have changed.
Steel Ball Run anime when?
Jun 28, 2013 5:52 PM
#4

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2006
Good work, officers & admins!
I have a question though--would it be possible to make the changelogs in a more easily-viewable place? I didn't even know they existed until a few days ago, but they're actually very helpful to quickly see what's been added/shifted to purgatory etc, especially since thread pages can grow pretty fast in the enlightenment camps.

Maybe there could be a combined changelog thread for both lists, or a spot for them on the club layout beneath the polling schedule?
Jun 28, 2013 6:04 PM
#5

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Apr 2009
5705
I assume you suggest an archive that includes:
-past decriptions
-enlightenment changelogs
-relations changelogs
-poll history

Neat idea. We will discuss this for sure.
Steel Ball Run anime when?
Jun 28, 2013 6:19 PM
#6

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Jun 2011
1489
I read through and found this to be a great addition to the club. Having plain-to-see and concrete rules will help guide the quick influx of new members we tend to get.

I do have one question concerning the new criteria for Enlightening polls. That being the mandatory 8 +/- prep votes needed to start up an anime poll.

I know one of the earlier purposes of the Enlightenment list was to spread the name of lesser known, quality anime, and to promote the viewing of such. With 8 people having needing to completed it, this would make it quite difficult for those more obscure series to even get on the purgatory list. In a case such as this, would the 4th Officer Rule come into play? "(Officers) can also directly put nominees on either list if the outcome is clear and the majority agrees to such a proposal." With this, a title can be made widely known to the club, entice members to watch it and increase the completed count. Then, a 1st time repoll(?) would be launched at which time it is officially inducted or dismissed. I was just wondering if a system such as that would be the new standard for rare or unknown anime.
Jun 28, 2013 8:45 PM
#7

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Oct 2012
1917
@Forgone

That's an interesting thought. It'd be a waste though if the title fails in the repoll and looses all chances of getting spotlight. I'd suggest endorsing the underground titles that you want to get it. There's no rule against that (although there are rules about behavior, so just do it in a very respectable way).
Jun 29, 2013 12:11 AM
#8

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Apr 2012
2240
Amazing job as always Nid, keep up the good work.
"The more inexperienced you are, the more you want to show off."
- Oreki, Hyouka
Jun 29, 2013 6:03 AM
#9

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Oct 2012
1917
I saw sushi supporting Amber in the other thread and it got me thinking of who our next officer can be. I don't think we need another just yet, but when the time comes, I think ForgoneReality should be considered. He created the reviewer thread, and is currently spearheading the whole review section of our club (and doing a good job at it,) so when the time comes, I think he should be promoted.
Jun 29, 2013 6:22 AM

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Ducat_Revel said:
I saw sushi supporting Amber in the other thread and it got me thinking of who our next officer can be. I don't think we need another just yet, but when the time comes, I think ForgoneReality should be considered. He created the reviewer thread, and is currently spearheading the whole review section of our club (and doing a good job at it,) so when the time comes, I think he should be promoted.
I agree. I don't think anyone would object.
Jun 29, 2013 11:21 AM

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Popka said:
Ducat_Revel said:
I saw sushi supporting Amber in the other thread and it got me thinking of who our next officer can be. I don't think we need another just yet, but when the time comes, I think ForgoneReality should be considered. He created the reviewer thread, and is currently spearheading the whole review section of our club (and doing a good job at it,) so when the time comes, I think he should be promoted.
I agree. I don't think anyone would object.


Thirded with a passion. <3 Forgone <3 <3
Jun 29, 2013 11:24 AM

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Why thank you very much Ducat + Popka + Amber! Of course I'd be willing to help if/when a new officer is needed.
Jun 29, 2013 11:39 AM

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Sep 2012
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Plus 1 for forgone and regarding the 8 votes rules Probably that is the reason I am hesitating in nominating The star of cottonland.
Jun 29, 2013 2:06 PM

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2006
I thought Forgone was already a part of the staff since he's so involved lol.

2 Steps Ahead, it looks like The Star of Cottonland is only a movie, so you might have luck if you nominate it. But it's understandable to be hesistant if you have a more obscure and longer series.
Jun 29, 2013 4:00 PM

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If any of you guys have movies or short OVAs you would like to nominate either you can stream it and promote the stream or you can ask one of the regular streamers to do it- Just post in the Anime Livestream thread.
Jul 25, 2013 4:51 AM

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Jun 2012
378
I suggest putting a disclaimer here that we don't poll characters. It is far too tedious and several people have been asking for character polls in the last week.
Jul 25, 2013 4:45 PM

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Valkyrion said:
I suggest putting a disclaimer here that we don't poll characters. It is far too tedious and several people have been asking for character polls in the last week.

I feel this could be a useful addition.
Oct 28, 2013 4:08 AM

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5705
Will add this, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Steel Ball Run anime when?
Nov 17, 2013 4:37 PM

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Jun 2012
378
In light of recent happenings: can we have a general rule against shitposting? I don't want this place to be the same as all MAL.
Nov 17, 2013 4:38 PM

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Jun 2011
1489
I think that falls under
2. Don't be dumb.
8. Do not spam.
Nov 17, 2013 4:40 PM

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Jun 2012
378
Oh that's right, I ALMOST forgot about the most important rule. Nevermind then
Jun 21, 2014 10:59 PM

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Oct 2012
1917
@Wind_Falcon
There's a lot of problems to that proposition.

First, 60% is already our compromise. If you were here earlier, you'd know we used to implement finishing the show (which is why no one voted for Sailor Moon.) This issue was brought up and we modified it to 60%. In my opinion, that's still too relaxed. I was leaning more on 60% only for longer shows and 100% for the rest. But I won't dispute this any further.

>they get worse because the most budget is spend on these first episodes to get people interested.

This only proves that we have to finish the show. If we decrease the amount of the show we need to finish, then we could get suckered in by a promising start. Plus, we have a rigorous screening process consisting of the nominations and the actual poll. Nominees can be shut down if enough people finish a show and find it not worth the time to poll. The only reason we only allow the people who've watched a decent amount of the show to vote is because we know they'll be able to give valid opinions over the said anime/manga.

To clarify, the actual poll means nothing. The comments with the votes are my basis when I tally votes. The poll is just for show. Ignore it. I tally only the votes found in the comments section, and even then, I read the votes to judge its coherency and validity. A .5 system would only serve to complicate things further. It would make the judging process a lot more difficult as "having a point" will no longer be important. See, an incomplete thought is as valid as an incorrect one. If I had to give a .5 to every vote which did not cover the whole show, then I'd have to give .5 to all the votes that suck. And I don't want that kind of blood on my hands. This obfuscates the line separating the binary of valid and invalid and blurs it further.

It would require me (the dude who screens every single vote) to watch every anime/read every manga polled. And I don't know if anyone in the group is acutely aware of the fact that I've voted the most in this club. I've contributed to around 80% of the polls, and if I were asked to do the other 20%, I'd lose my marbles.

Even outside of that (as I'm sure the counter-argument goes "then get more poll admins,") the proposed voting system is flawed as incomplete opinions are flawed. In much the same way, I can't watch only half of a movie and say it's bad. It'd be too rash of me and would make me look naive and lazy. True, some anime don't improve. But that's not our job as voters. As voters, we watch regardless because we want to voice valid opinions and to engage people in discussion. Look at the current Katanagatari poll. Only three different people have talked about it, but we're going into it in detail. And that makes a poll worth it.

>Maybe even polling is not the best way to go about this, I think it would be better that we actually have persuasion power in discussions, and change each others' opinions, not just say "It should be there because X" or "It shouldn't be there because Y" and just count at the end.

We do this. We can't force it. We encourage it. It happens occasionally. But not all the time. Nothing we can do about it.

Now, we also don't discourage people who haven't finished to stay away from the poll threads. They can comment if they want to (and some do.) It's just that they can't vote. They can go in there, talk a bit about initial reactions and the people who voted could try to sway them one way or another. It happens. Just not every time. Intellectual discussion like that can't be enforced. Only cherished and advocated.

I hope you see what I'm getting at here. We don't have a perfect system, but it's effective at getting well-thought opinions (scarce as they are.) Watching less than half a show just can't provide that sort of sharp-minded discussion.

Anyway, I'm glad you voiced out your qualms about the system. Please feel free to continue whenever something bugs you about it. I'm sure one of us admins will get to it. Just do it in this thread from now on. Good day to you, man.
Ducat_RevelJun 21, 2014 11:14 PM
Jun 22, 2014 4:48 AM
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Jun 2008
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I see why this is a complicated matter.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, it doesn't have to be a 0,5 system - just something to let more people have a say at. I proposed the 0,5 thing so that it's obvious that their opinion doesn't equal one of a person who has watched the show to it's fullest.

I'm sure something better can be though of.

Regarding the first few strong episodes - if they are strong, the person will continue watching it, and if they aren't - he won't (the same if the show declines in views). In this case in point with the Enlightenment list, I don't think this particular nuance can be harmful.

And like I was talking, the idea of the list, as I'm getting it, is to select the cream of the crop - the most unorthodox, imaginative, inspiring, philosophical - and so on works. I don't see why a person who has watched 3 episodes out of 12 otaku pandering garbage shouldn't have at least some say over if it gets in the list or not.

That's like how some colleges attack me when I express negative opinions about the Song of Ice and Fire series based only on reading the first book (for them investing in a ~800 page read is not enough it seems to form an opinion). I think this first book (initial episodes of a series) are what set the tone, direction - everything. Shows can get better or worse, but they stick to the initial blueprint. If it's action - it may get 10 times more epic, but it's probably not going to turn into and existentialistic journey into the dualistic nature of the human psyche. And if it does - word will get around, people will realize if there has been a bate and switch or something. I definitely think a gem of a show whose place is on an Enlightenment list can't be missed today. It's more about not letting the not so Enlightening series, even if they are fun and fan favorite among the members, get in.

Again, I get why something like this can lead to error - it doesn't have to be the 0.5 point system - just pointing out that maybe it would be better to start coming up with new stuff, put it up as a poll in itself "How does the club feel about X rules", get more people involved or something.

Though I guess you've already went through the motions and this is the best plan, from the list at least it seems to largely do its job, with obvious exceptions.
Wind_FalconJun 22, 2014 4:55 AM
Jun 22, 2014 5:13 AM

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Wind_Falcon said:
I don't see why a person who has watched 3 episodes out of 12 otaku pandering garbage shouldn't have at least some say over if it gets in the list or not.

Don't worry, we already got a system for that. Each title needs 8 positive votes in the camp before polling. And I don't think we got that many regulars that would vote for otaku pandering garbage. So you can relax! We got it covered!

"Your sight, my delight. Will you marry me?"
Jun 22, 2014 5:46 AM

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The problem with empowering the opinions of those who haven't finished a series is the possibility of stacking those opinions. A collective mass of people who vote for or against a show, limited as their vote's potency is, will still be a factor. What I'm saying is, your intention is potentially lethal and definitely misguided. I don't think the intention was poor. It's just that it'll open the gates to a lot of misconceptions about different shows.

Our list is a compilation of series which have high merits. I don't agree with each one, but that's why we have these polls to discuss said merits. And we rarely let otaku-pandering trash polled anyway. Those titles don't pass through the nomination thread. They usually linger in Purgatory until either the club or Alabastre tosses it aside.

If you have an issue with our inductees, you could always voice yourself in the Official Repoll thread.

>If it's action - it may get 10 times more epic, but it's probably not going to turn into and existentialistic journey into the dualistic nature of the human psyche.

Berserk, Vinland Saga, and Vagabond did. Are they exceptions to the subgenre? Hell, they can be exceptions to the whole medium. They're that good. And our jobs are proper critics and voters is to not be too hasty about dismissing things. We could trash it while we watch it air, it could be terrible at the start, but we have to acknowledge that our opinion on the matter is still not complete.

I advice against being too quick to the trigger. If you don't like something, don't watch it. If you want to voice your opinion in a way that I will include it in the tally, finish it. As the admin in charge of the polls, I advice completion and clarity. Write it like Wordsworth would write a poem. An intense feeling of passion written in a moment of tranquility. Opinions are best when thought over and recalled in a much more serene moment.

I'm afraid to say that I can't count votes from parties who have not finished currently polling or to-be-polled anime. I hope you understand.
Ducat_RevelJun 22, 2014 5:57 AM
Jun 22, 2014 8:30 AM
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Jun 2008
184
The otaku pandering garbage is an expression, though there are already examples I can point to (which of course I won't do, so don't ask!).

In the setup of both Berserk and Vinland Saga (and, even if I still haven't picked it up, Vagabond, just from its premise, setting and character) it is obvious that their focus is the one we care for. They were never portrayed as dumb action (but of course use violence as any self-respecting human duality piece should at least address), so they shouldn't have surprised anyone with their true content - immediate or future.

Even if they were portrayed misleadingly (which they weren't) word would have gotten around and people that care for their true nature would have finished them. I'm repeating myself, but good shows don't get overlooked by their intended audiences today. Just by people that can't appreciate them anyway.

I completely disagree that my proposition will open any floodgates of anything - the error margin an intelligent solution to this will be either close to zero or none - especially if there is some filter factor involved as well. What's the worse case scenario exactly? People who have seen very little of a masterpiece decide it's not up for the list? That sounds ridiculous. Or that people will get garbage in? That also seems very unlikely, because if they liked it so much so that they deem it Enlightening, they would have finished it anyway.

If you are afraid of exceptions that's all the more reason to have some sort of trusted jury which has some weight on final list entries as well. The people for that jury will be easily named since their opinions and personalities are the ones that drew us into the club in the first place. (Though a jury system in in itself cane lead up to choked opinion as well, I'm aware of that.)

Regardless, I think that completely valid opinions about shows can be created based on initial episodes, and while I agree they shouldn't necessarily weigh as much as an opinion from someone who has finished the show in it's entirety, its baffling that it doesn't have any weight at all. After all, we aren't defined only by what we watch, but by what we don't watch - especially if it's on purpose. I don't see why someone has to watch garbage X if it somehow gets to polling just to put it down out of principle of what it represents and stands for either way. Having the option to nominate series for a repoll doesn't fix the problem - they won't have the power to battle other people's opinions either way, especially if they go against the presumption that "if you haven't seen it 100%, your opinion is invalid".

I'm not a big fan of poetry (with few exceptions of course), and I'm definitely not a fan of the English Romantics.
Wind_FalconJun 22, 2014 8:44 AM
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