Why Do People Like Sena So Much?

BloodyNightsky said:
Jamada,sir,you're beyond impossible to recover.This isnt a Sena vs Yozora and it isnt a secret that the majority likes the busty female character more due to her appearence.Dont deny that because it is a fact.
I see you're a hater and refuse to understand all characters in the show.Note that in the episode with the swimming pool she said she actually LIKES her nickname,in fact she even answer to it easily without anykind of sad reactions,and it is the first time someone giving her a nickname.I had a nickname too,I had several nicknames but you dont see me turn like you into hating that person because he gave me a nickname.Stop playing the lawyer for Sena on this matter.

And really,REALLY stop it with the icing on the cake,the looks of a girl,real life or not it doesnt matter,is the bait.Basically is like strongly denying that you dont like big young breasts.It is a fact that we like them but yet you deny it.

P.S: I feel like I'm talking to the walls.You want to make me look like I'm hating her so badly?
Then you're no different from the Yozora you have in your mind.
What a fool I am that I even posted here,I felt the stench of this income long before I was even intending to post.

Jamada said:
I've objected to your 90% comment because it was insulting to the Sena fans who like her not because of "tits and ass" (your words).

kuuderes_shadow said:


How is claiming that 90% of the fans of a character like her for the wrong reasons in any way insulting towards the 10% that don't?

BloodyNightsky said:
Yep,you're irrecuperable.You continue denying that the majority likes her for the looks.I said it myself,when I use percentage usually I do it of reflex to say that a majority likes a thing.And,no,I'm not an ass because I'm not hating any of the characters.
If being an ass is saying why the busty girl is more popular than the flat-chested and yet no that appealing body then yes I am an ass.Look over theyr facebook,Sena is everywhere and mostly almost naked.Even the producers know what I'm saying is true,it's an overwhelming proof why she's popular.I invite you to search on facebook "Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai NEXT".Go ahead,tell me what you see,compare the number of Sena's posts to any other character.

Jamada said:

Again, this is a fallacious argument.

Sena's popular - TRUE.
Because Sena's popular, there are lots of pictures of her - TRUE.
Sena has big breasts - TRUE.
Sena's popular BECAUSE of her big breasts - AN ARROGANT ASSUMPTION.

NeoAnkara said:
Why is that arrogant? Physical appearance is matter much more to some people more than other atribute.

Jamada said:

Again, this is a fallacious argument.

Sena's popular - TRUE.
Because Sena's popular, there are lots of pictures of her - TRUE.
Sena has big breasts - TRUE.
Sena's popular BECAUSE of her big breasts - AN ARROGANT ASSUMPTION.

BloodyNightsky said:
You're a hypocrite.She is popular because of that,that's why the majority of fanservice is with her.I'm not saying it is wrong or anything,I'm say THATS WHY SHE'S SO POPULAR,THAT'S WHY THE MAJORITY OF HER FANS LIKES HER.Imagine a character with same personality as her but without the great looking body,and I'll tell you a secret:THERE ARE ANIMES LIKE THAT AND THE ONE WITH THIS PERSONALITY IS HATED AS MUCH AS YOU HATE YOZORA.
I bet on anything you want,if Yozora was the one with great looking body there would be someone like you saying there is more than you see and it is true but this thread is asking WHY SHE IS SO POPULAR.
You completely ignored the explanation of that "90%".OK,I'll repeat it.I tend to pull of percentage of of habit,that percentage basically means "the majority".

Jamada said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

P1 Men generally like boobs. Okay.
P2 Women generally have boobs. Okay.
C1 Men generally like women. Okay.

It's not okay to take P1 and P2 to get C2 (see below).

C2 Men ALWAYS like women.

You're making broad assumptions of Sena's fanbase solely because she has large boobs. This is a logical fallacy.

Simply put, you're wrong.

kuuderes_shadow said:
Oh the joys of someone using a logical fallacy in attempting to call out another person using a logical fallacy.

Since we're quoting wikipedia articles, have a look at this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Your example bears no relation to what BloodyNightsky is claiming.

Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

kuuderes_shadow said:


And how is that not exactly what you did - twice now in fact. Yes, that's right. You just used another straw man to try to argue that your last one wasn't.

BloodyNightsky said:


You're denying a proof that is present everywhere in the world when it comes to great looking girls.The majority of boys likes X busty girl because of her looks,yet there is a minority that approaches her out of friendship and interest in her personality,wants to know her better but the majority is too overwhelming to see the minority,to see whats in the book.
I know I mentioned my childhood friend several times but now it is a perfect example,she's blonde with blue eyes and have breast(god I hope she doesnt sees the post,she'll karate chop me for atleast a month)above average for her age(they are not big nor small but noticeable),she's 20.Do you know how the majority of boys,collegues from work and from college also the boys where we live,talk about her?
Damn dude she looks sooo great I'd bang that,you're so lucky to stay close to her....so,how many times did you bang her?
Most of conversations look like that but there are guys that sees beyond her looks and dont talk about her like that and dont like her because of that.But theyr number I've met is soo little that I can count them on my both hands fingers.
I asked them for a opinion on her,out of curiosity,they said "I cant give an opinion on her since I dont know her and I dont want to judge on appearence" this kind of answer.They are the minority.

BloodyNightsky said:
(god I hope she doesnt sees the post,she'll karate chop me for atleast a month)

Jamada said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

kuuderes_shadow said:
Jamada:-

In case you really can't see it, I'll help show you the problem.

In your straw man argument (leaving aside for now the fact that reaching C1 from P1 and P2 is in itself not a logically valid argument), the main difference in validity between reaching C1 from P1 and P2 and reaching C2 from the same point is that for C1 you are going from a claim about the majority to a claim about the majority - in both case allowing for exceptions; for C2, meanwhile, you go from a claim about the majority, allowing for exceptions, to a universal statement, allowing no exceptions.

At no point did BloodyNightsky go from a claim about the majority to a universal statement. Unless I have missed something, at all times BloodyNightsky's argument remained a claim about the majority. Thus BloodyNightsky's argument closer resembles, from a logical perspective, the argument which you claim to be okay to the argument which you claim is not. Thus disproving the argument leading to C2 is irrelevant to disproving BloodyNightsky's argument.

The cum hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy can be expressed as follows:

A occurs in correlation with B.
Therefore, A causes B.

In this type of logical fallacy, one makes a premature conclusion about causality after observing only a correlation between two or more factors. Generally, if one factor (A) is observed to only be correlated with another factor (B), it is sometimes taken for granted that A is causing B, even when no evidence supports it. This is a logical fallacy because there are at least five possibilities:

A may be the cause of B.
B may be the cause of A.
some unknown third factor C may actually be the cause of both A and B.
there may be a combination of the above three relationships. For example, B may be the cause of A at the same time as A is the cause of B (contradicting that the only relationship between A and B is that A causes B). This describes a self-reinforcing system.
the "relationship" is a coincidence or so complex or indirect that it is more effectively called a coincidence (i.e. two events occurring at the same time that have no direct relationship to each other besides the fact that they are occurring at the same time). A larger sample size helps to reduce the chance of a coincidence, unless there is a systematic error in the experiment.

In other words, there can be no conclusion made regarding the existence or the direction of a cause and effect relationship only from the fact that A and B are correlated. Determining whether there is an actual cause and effect relationship requires further investigation, even when the relationship between A and B is statistically significant, a large effect size is observed, or a large part of the variance is explained.

BloodyNightsky said:
You still hold on that "90%"?
You're a hopeless cause.I see you desperatly search for everything to make you look right,I dont claim I'm absolutely right but a good bait always catches alot of fishes,yet you deny that a good bait doesnt do that.
Also,I quit,you're forcing your opinion on me which clearly I know much more than you about popularity of great looking girls among boys.I use this argument with great looking girls in real life because this is the case.

BloodyNightsky here,I'm leaving the bunker,over!
Do you copy,base?

kuuderes_shadow said:
I'm out of this argument too, for almost the opposite reason of BloodyNightsky - you (Jamada) finally made a post (#66) that made sense.

Of course, I still think you're wrong, but I can't be bothered to argue it out (which is why I didn't enter into the debate earlier). But, just to explain how I can hold that position, the claim "the majority of Sena fans don't like her because of her appearance" is no more justified than "the majority of Sena fans like her because of her appearance". Don't bother collating evidence or statistics (which would almost certainly have serious sampling biases anyway) as that would be a waste of your time - I'm not going to argue it out any further and the next full stop on this post will be my last in this argument as far as I'm concerned.

BlackTruth said:
The reason I like Sena the best is because she is the underdog between her and Yozora.

It's obvious that Yozora is the favored pick and probably will be the winner (I currently don't know where the manga or anime is at, story-wise)... I don't have a problem with this outcome.

I believe choosing Sena would make for a better story, but even if it wasn't for the story, I'd still choose Sena for her personality (not for her other "personality"), but if I could choose any combo, it would be the main character and the smart chick (Rika?)... because that would be hilarious.

NeoAnkara said:
You must be haven't watch Next. The story is now greatly favor in Sena now and she strip one by one something that make Yozora "special person" to Kodaka.

NeoAnkara said:
You must be haven't watch Next. The story is now greatly favor in Sena now and she strip one by one something that make Yozora "special person" to Kodaka.

BlackTruth said:
The reason I like Sena the best is because she is the underdog between her and Yozora.

It's obvious that Yozora is the favored pick and probably will be the winner (I currently don't know where the manga or anime is at, story-wise)... I don't have a problem with this outcome.

I believe choosing Sena would make for a better story, but even if it wasn't for the story, I'd still choose Sena for her personality (not for her other "personality"), but if I could choose any combo, it would be the main character and the smart chick (Rika?)... because that would be hilarious.

BloodyNightsky said:
You still hold on that "90%"?
You're a hopeless cause.I see you desperatly search for everything to make you look right,I dont claim I'm absolutely right but a good bait always catches alot of fishes,yet you deny that a good bait doesnt do that.
Also,I quit,you're forcing your opinion on me which clearly I know much more than you about popularity of great looking girls among boys.I use this argument with great looking girls in real life because this is the case.

BloodyNightsky here,I'm leaving the bunker,over!
Do you copy,base?

Takuan_Soho said:
Underdog? Sena is smarter (tests), more attractive (to most people), more talented (as seen in the festivals), richer, and has more social power (as evident in the fight with Yusa) than Yozora. That Yozora can fight her evenly is a testament to Yozora.

The reason Yozora can't get a bead on Rika is that Rika is honest (which has been outside of Yozora's experience with people).

Yozora failing is her not knowing what relationship she wants from Kodaka, and her being dishonest about it opens her to attack (she plagiarized because she wanted to use the story to express herself to Kodaka). The novels are more equal in treatment, but in the animation Sena has definitely received the better treatment.

In the novels Sena is remarkably cruel, particularly to Yukimura (her attitude towards her makes Yozora's seem benign) and has none of the development that the animation implied (in the 8th novel she is as cruel and self-delusional as the first).

As for who the most interesting character is, it is still Yozora. We pretty much know everything there is to know about the other characters (except what exactly the family situation with Yukimura wanting to be a "man" is about). We know nothing about why Sora turned into Yozora and nothing about her family situation. We also know that Kodaka has no clue about Yozora (the novel makes this clearer than the animation, particularly the battle with Rika), and that despite what he says, he was the one most trapped by the past, not her.

Hell we don't even know what Yozora really feels towards Kodaka (if love why did she wear a jersey on a date, if like why does it seem like it is love, or is it that even she doesn't know the difference (the BL animation suggests this)).

If Sena is Everest, Yozora is Mauna Kea (so much lies below the surface). That is why I am really looking forward to the 9th novel, this should be revealed (though the trouble is that once we know this the series is pretty much over).

opinion keeps getting shoved aside

Nayami-Chan said:



I gotta say I've been watching this thread and I kinda feel bad that your opinion keeps getting shoved aside =( You do have some good points but people on here seem to be enjoying a stubborness debate so only the bad can be seen ^^; Just needed to say I'm sorry that you don't seemingly get to enjoy this debate anymore and that not everyone is against you on this you seemed to not have many if any allies left on this left.
That and I really liked the Aoi gifs you've been posting in this thread I didn't have those so Thanks much for that! =D

BloodyNightsky said:
You're welcomed and I have experiences with stubborned people more than you can belive.My mother is that way,my sister is the same.Even if I'm right,and they see my point,they refuse to accept it.Sometimes,you must know when to back off and let them experience or see what you have warned them of or what you have kept telling them.
I do enjoy debates but not when they are treated as flame.If you treat a post as a flame,in my opinion,it means you dont take it seriously and you'll just act as a pyromaniac,seeking to fuel the flame or creating one.
My point was simple,Sena is a magnet because of her looks,what makes her fans keep liking her is either her personality or they can relate to her somehow or other reasons.
Have you ever saw posts on a busty girl facebook that pose sexy or in a swimsuit?
"I like your personality" type of comment there will always exist but who am I to point the obvious when it's completely denyed?
I felt like I was arguing with my mother over things.When she's wrong she stubbornly hangs over everthing she can to deny that I'm right.When she's right and I admit it she crushes me completely,talking about arguments.So letting aside that she's my mother,if we ignore that,she doesnt play fair.
It's like faking an injury in the penalty zone at football/soccer.You do it to fool the referee,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt.

Jamada said:
But one things for sure, Sena's not going to win an argument because she's very prone to being tricked (e.g. the tower hair style, fortune telling, etc.) and generally weak willed (despite the arrogance).

Jamada said:
The unique thing about Yozora (at least in the beginning) - and why Sena actually likes Yozora -

Jamada said:
is that she has the will to overcome Sena's only strength in an argument - that her dad is the chairman.

Jamada said:
Rika likewise can easily trick Sena (she helped with the tower and the fortune telling); Rika was following Yozora's lead. Rika and Yozora are far more familiar then they have let on, that was a coordinated action

Jamada said:
I do wonder though, if Sena had run into Rika first that she might actually have obsessed over Rika as her "best frenemy" instead of Yozora.

Jamada said:
I'm not sure I'd say Rika is entirely honest. She's actually quite deceptive as she's able to hide her true self by over-emphasizing her fujoshi side.

Jamada said:
and her {Rika} ability to exploit Sena's weakness is second to none;

Jamada said:
I've read the novels fairly recently, but I can't recall which interaction between Yukimura and Sena was particularly cruel. I do recall that

Jamada said:
I think we do, even if she doesn't. I also think Kodaka might be aware and perhaps in trying to "save the club" he was just trying to save Yozora from coming to terms with her complex feelings.

Jamada said:
Agreed on the first part, but I'm not sure that the series will necessarily end. If it's popular, the author may decide to continue it. Or it may get a spin-off with a stronger focus on romance rather than friendship (though probably not - I'm just saying it's a possibility).

Takuan_Soho said:
She wasn't "tricked" so much as her arrogance makes her do stupid things. "Tricked" implies that Yozora did something dishonest to get Sena to do something, whereas all Yozora did was to appeal to Sena's vanity and Sena did it to herself.

Sena doesn't like Yozora, wary of her yes, obsessed yes, maybe even a little in love, but not like. Sena doesn't do like well.

She normally treats people like she does Yusa.

Rika didn't trick Sena, in both cases she was merely supporting Yozora. In the fortune telling episode she merely held a candlestick (same with Yuikimura), she took a more active part in the stacked hair, but as Yozora's hand on the shoulder showed, Rika was following Yozora's lead.

No. Different personality types. Rika is not a brawler, she would have no interest in standing up to Sena, nor frankly the need to. Sena would have ignored Rika and Rika wouldn't have cared or for that part probably noticed.

True, but that doesn't mean that Rika isn't honest with herself.

She knows she is acting, that she is over-emphasizing her fujoshi side. Kodaka and Yozora know that as well.

Rika also knows that she can act like a pervert because she knows that Kodaka would never take advantage, and she knows what she really wants (friends). She is self aware. That is why Yozora can draw a vector on her. Sena on the other hand has a gap a mile wide, which is why Yozora can get to her.

Never any evidence of that. Rika may have insight, but she doesn't have the personality to manipulate people.

Sena texts Kodaka whenever she is alone with Yukimura, because as that scene shows, she finds her creepy. So despising someone and completely ignoring their existence. What would you call that that if not cruel?Yozora at least doesn't ignore her (as for that scene, the level of insults are hardly equal).

I can and have written extensively on this, but to the point Kodaka is not "trying" anything. He is running away from dealing with things, which is why he has never asked anything about Yozora. He doesn't want to deal with it. The last title was "Kodaka becomes the Protagonist". Even though he has always been the MC, the title is accurate, the protagonist is what causes the action to move: Kodaka never has never done anything, all the events have occurred because the girls in general and Yozora in particularly have initiated them.

Not discounting the possibility of a spin off, but as for the plot of the series to date, Kodaka and Yozora resolving their relationship would end it. It's sort of like if the MC of a Harem show finally picks one girl, the story is over. The writer may use the characters for something else, but it will be for an absolutely new story.

Jamada said:
Your first sentence is kind of my point. She's gullible because she's all too willing to believe things as long as her weakness (her arrogance in particular) is used. There's plenty of evidence that Yozora is manipulative (e.g. Maria), so I'm not sure you can defend her in that regard (except to say that she's a sympathetic character - which is fair).

Jamada said:
I'm going to disagree here. I think Sena thinks of Yozora as a frenemy - someone she enjoys taking jabs at (like best friends often do). Recall volume 7's "The Second Time"; she says

Jamada said:
She ignored (or, more accurately, she wasn't even aware of) Yusa for the entire time she was at St. Chronica. She isn't concerned about competing with other people (though she does like showing off as shown with the athletics competition), so she had no reason to concern herself with the person who came 2nd place in grades. The only reason she brow beats Yusa is because Yusa came after the club.

Jamada said:
I'd argue that she was complicit in the manipulation making her just as "guilty". Of course, I maintain that it's entirely possibly that she means no harm when she messes with Sena;
Sena seems to actually like being messed with. (I'm pretty sure both Rika and Yozora felt a bit bad about it afterward, which is one point that Yozora actually shows some development - a nice moment.) You're right about Rika's role in the fortune telling; my bad. However, my point is *not* that Rika's personality is manipulative, but rather that she's perfectly capable of manipulation. She's incredibly perceptive and is capable of being deceptive.

Jamada said:
Ah, you mean because of the anime? If I recall correctly, the novel was slightly different.

Takuan_Soho said:
Probably should add: I'm a person who will always respond because I have fun doing so, I know I run things into the ground, so please don't take me too seriously. If I get obsessive, just tell me, I won't be offended. That said, I think you are similar so lets continue!

It's clearer in the novels, but Maria is similar to Sena, she thinks she is a super genius and better than most people, which is what attracts Yozora's attacks, Yozora doesn't see it as "manipulation", she just enjoys cutting people down to size. In this way Yozora is very similar to Sena, like Sena unless the person rises to the level of a challenge, Yozora will not engage. That is why Yozora is not a bully (and got mad when Kodaka implied it), Yozora hunts the strong, not the weak. Yukimura may be deluded, but her certainty is what attracted Yozora to sport with her. If Yukimura was merely misguided, Yozora would have never picked on her.

Semantics is probably true. I don't think Sena is capable of having friends yet, but it is certain that Yozora is special because she is the first person her age that Sena couldn't overwhelm. Its obvious that Sena wants Yozora to be strong, when Yozora gave up after the fiance Sena couldn't take it. But I wouldn't say even "Frenemy" She is more obsessed than even 10% friend. It is going to be interesting to see what happens next now that Yozora removes herself from the field.

Ignoring is what I meant, Yozora has forced Sena to notice her. That is why Sena is so obsessed with her. She has never had that before (except with Stella, but Stella is her surrogate mother), someone she couldn't ignore.

I would agree the Rika COULD be manipulative, she is a genius after all. But it isn't as natural to her as it is with Yozora. Rika is pretty earnest, she really did just want friends. I am not sure they really felt bad after the hair stacking episode, because apologizing drove Sena even more crazy. The fortune telling episode was the only real time we saw someone sorry for what they did.

There is a part in the novel as well, check what Yozora said when Rika left while Yozora was playing the galge. They changed it in the anime.

I'll answer the rest later! Want to save because MAL checks me out.

Jamada said:
That's not quite right. Maria hadn't even interacted with Yozora before Yozora decided to make her move (to obtain the club room and Maria as club advisor).

Jamada said:
Furthermore, Maria is a child; her gullibility is perfectly natural rather than being because she's full of herself and Yozora actually exploited Maria's lack of confidence. On top of that, Yozora actually used physical force to intimidate Maria.

Jamada said:
It's only at the second interaction between Yozora and Maria that Yozora exploits Maria's desire to be treated like a responsible adult. Afterwards, it seems that chips do the job for Maria's compliance (which is still a form of manipulation, but at least Maria finally gets something out of it).

Jamada said:
Agreed about Rika. I'm pretty sure that they did feel bad with the tower.

Jamada said:
Sena's just being her easily flustered self when she realizes just how humiliating the experience really was (if only because she wanted to save face - which is consistent with the proud front she puts up).

Takuan_Soho said:
Allo, back from reality.

While they may not have interacted, Yozora obviously knew who Maria was, and given the way Maria acted, she would have definitely been noticed. Kate gives more specific background on this, which is why she said she was grateful to Yozora in particular.

As for Yozora's use of physical violence, corporal punishment is still far more common in Japan than the US (I have seen a teacher slap a student before), and Maria really deserved it with her disgusting behavior.

Not quite, in the passage that you provided Yozora does to Maria exactly what Yozora did to Yusa. She turned their words and rules against them. Maria goes on about how she is a "genius" and in her "sister" mode she thinks she has the right to preach to people. Yozora was showing how shallow Maria's knowledge was to her. After burning her a couple of times notice how Maria stopped that line of reasoning.

You could be right, but at the same time their apologizing was the best way to piss Sena off more, sort of like when Sena read the eroge dialog in front of everyone. Yozora apologized there as well, but again it was exactly the right attitude to take to drive Sena crazy.

That said, I think the writer really didn't think this scene through that well, which is why it never developed.

That is sort of my point above with the writer. Yozora and Rika knows that Sena would try to save face, so they should have known the impact of their apology. Now I think you are correct and both meant to apologize earnestly (which doesn't indicate friendship, Yozora and Rika both have a sense of justice, and that would have required them to apologize), but this was one scene I think the writer had a rare lapse and forgot the character's personalities.

I am going to be curious to see how 9 develops when or if it ever comes out. The story is at a critical point, if the writer really wants to continue this for another 7-8 novels, then the next issue will have to be done in a way to re-ignite Sena's and Yozora's hatred while keeping both as somewhat sympathetic characters. That will be tough given how much development happened in 8, so how the writer gets out of it will be interesting.