Suisei no Gargantia Episode 8 Discussion

StopDropAndBowl said:
If one thinks that survival comes before morality, and that this is supported by Darwinism, one has to wonder why the modern world has so thoroughly stamped out utilitarianism as the basis for society? Why did the utilitarian Nazi Germany suffer defeat at the hands of the less utilitarian Allies? Why did the utilitarian Sparta fall to the wayside while the less utilitarian Rome lasted far longer? The idea of a morality beyond that of survival has survived better, and longer, than it's opposite. Ironically, Darwinism has effectively weeded out social Darwinism in the modern, advanced world.

StopDropAndBowl said:
If one thinks that survival comes before morality, and that this is supported by Darwinism, one has to wonder why the modern world has so thoroughly stamped out utilitarianism as the basis for society? Why did the utilitarian Nazi Germany suffer defeat at the hands of the less utilitarian Allies? Why did the utilitarian Sparta fall to the wayside while the less utilitarian Rome lasted far longer? The idea of a morality beyond that of survival has survived better, and longer, than it's opposite. Ironically, Darwinism has effectively weeded out social Darwinism in the modern, advanced world.

Deleth said:

Because we currently are at the point where Rome, ancient Greece and some other previous "high civilizations" were aswell. We are decadent, arrogant and deluded to no end.

The rise of Rome was preceeded by the softening and liberalization of Ancient Greece. In turn the liberalization and softening of Rome eventually led to it being overrun by the more aggressive and determinated German barbarians.

This is a cycle that keeps repeating for quite a long time. A rather militaristic and patriarchic society with rigid rules usually rises above it's competitors often completly eliminating those.

This in turn leads to the people living in a fairly long time of peace and prosperity making them concentrate on internal issues eventually eroding away what lead to them being able to ascend to the position they now hold.

Which leads to being ill prepared in a clash with a more determinated and aggressiv opponent from the outside and often in the people actually being unwilling to fight back or even defend themselves or hardly putting any effort into it. They don't remember the cruel reality of war and fighting for survival anymore and usually are taught a harsh lesson, if any are left at the end.


Being aggressive and utilitarian can lead to success, which in turn leads to reigning supreme once all competitors are gone, which in turn leads to prosperity, which makes people grow rich, fat, decadent and more pacifist, that in turn weakens the entire country and gives external enemies the change to overtake them.

A peaceful society based on cooperation, morals and such usually is the consequence of an utilitarian and militaristic nation having been successfull and "served it's purpose".
Just look at the history of the most successfull nations, not one of them started out with all those morals, pacifism and other stuff they eventually developed but only invented them once they had grown fat and content.

AnimageNeby said:
A good point, deleth. Very well put.

Of course, reality is that no society ever lasts forever, be it militaristic or otherwise. but, as you (an I) correctly point out, succesful nations and certainly empires ALWAYS started off as being militaristic.

Deleth said:

It doesn't really work any other way, if you want to found an empire or nation you first need land and on earth for example everything is already occupied. So you will need to take it from someone else.
If you want to prosper you need resources, you need to be able to defend yourself and so on and on and on. There are a lot of worries and dangers and our current period of "peace" in the west doesn't make it any less true.

In fact the whole "everyone is equal"," we shouldn't even fight to defend ourselves", "we can talk things through" and other ideas the West has come up with in the last years are based on being incredible rich, very far away from any kind of wars for 70~ years, there being no "perceived danger" whatsoever and so on and on and on.

At the same time nations with a more pragmantic stance are actually closing the gap, while the West is overall in a decline when it comes to relative importance and strenght.

AnimageNeby said:
You are talking about Europe and China, aren't you? ;-)

I largely agree. Europe, and the West in general, is becoming far too complacent. While we debate endlessly about futilities and have endless bickering about what to do (Syria being the latest example), China is rapidly gaining on us, be it economical, military, scientifically, etc. Within 20 years, it will be the dominant superpower, while we will be only a shadow of ourselves, and no match to them in any domain anymore.

We're like the East-Romans in Byzanthium, discussing how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle, while the barbarians are at the frontgates.

Deleth said:

Nah, there's a whole bunch of other sources of far bigger danger. China is for all purposes a big hollow bubble waiting to burst. Around 47% of Chinas gdp is coming from the construction sector which is building giant ghost towns such as Ordos all over the country and their CCD according to Goldman is around 240% of their yearly GDP.

China by far isn't the only country out there and by now shares some of the Wests problem such as a rapidly aging population due to one child policy. It needs Europe/the US to sell it's stuff or it's economy would implode in an instant.

zombiepika said:
i hope Ridget can take this new responsibility,


WTF BEVEL CAN WALK!?I SWORE THAT CHILD COULDNT WALK.

haha and its so strange that aaaalll Melty thinks about is hot guys, i cant wait to see her in her 20's

efufufufufu

AnimageNeby said:


I found that surprising too. As you, I thought he couldn't stand on his legs, let along move about. Well, he DID lay down in bed in *every*scene as of yet.

But I guess he's just....frail? Constantly sick? Or something.

StopDropAndBowl said:

Yeah! Because forced exposition is AMAZING storytelling... always a good choice...

On the topic of the episode:

Very well done. It was sad and mournful, but not melodramatic (tears from teenagers and mourning daughters are understandable), and also showed the development of Ledo. He is no longer only fighting just because it's his mission, he's beginning to formulate coherent reasons for his fight: he wants to protect Amy and humanity. He also shows a rebelliousness toward the Alliance propaganda when he tells Bevel that he doesn't want the utilitarian mentality to take over Gargantia.

I thought the Ridget parts were well done if you understand the reasoning behind it. She is coming to terms with being a leader, and part of that was letting go of both her father-figure and letting the ships go without making a scene or causing a fuss. It did well at showcasing the more democratic side of Gargantia and was semi-realistic in the problems a young, brand new leader would face after the death of a long-time, respected leader and mentor/father figure. Amy also showed maturity near the end by not whining at Ledo as he said good-bye.

People can call it boring, but I prefer story-telling that isn't afraid to take it's time and to really highlight the personal aspect of characterization. Action is all well and good, but it should ALWAYS take a back seat to good, solid story-telling. Further, this was the point of all the "boring" episodes beforehand: to introduce the humanization of Ledo and to highlight the emotions of the other characters. I don't think we were supposed to cry at the death of the Commander, or at Ledo leaving; we were just supposed to understand the feelings of the people involved, understand why Ridget is so emotionally affected, why Amy is crying, and why it means a lot that Ledo is actually THINKING about something other than his mission. The fact that Ledo discusses his younger brother with Bevel means that he's actually thought about it, and has to some degree been hurt by the memory. He is already showing cracks in his robot-soldier facade.

Most shows would have skipped the character building and used the classic mistake of assuming that Tell is as good as Show in storytelling. It takes a certain kind of courage to slow down and really work at building the character in a realistic way: no huge space battles, no pseudo-intellectual rants, no over-blown action scenes to give cheap drama and exposition; just simple every day life. People in this anime have conversations they would realistically have. They do things they would realistically do. They make mistakes, they don't communicate, they doubt themselves and others, and they don't spend hours talking about shit. They work, they play, they live, they eat, they love, they lose, they grow, and when they die, they just die. No huge fanfare; no ten-minute speeches, just a peaceful death and a funeral and everyone else picking up the pieces and trying to move on.

Well, haters gonna hate; armchair critics gonna expect bad tropes and worse techniques and be disappointed when they don't get them. What're ya gonna do? You can lead horses to water, but you can't make 'em drink.

On a side note: Pinion dies next. Heroic sacrifice to teach Ledo the true meaning of loss and finalize his understanding of the depth of human interaction.

JoaoZangetsu said:


I was going talk about this, but you did that for me, people watch this expecting something that is not for them, hell, they even talked about this in the interview.

Darklight0303 said:


Except it's blatantly failing at what they said it's meant to do anyway.

DawnJ said:
People are overrating t3h urobutchering. I'm 97% sure that people crying out 'urobutcher will happen' have only watched madoka(and maybe f/z) and heard about the reputation of Saya no uta. He's famous for dark settings and endings, not for killing some blond chick with big breasts.

Also, he's pretty good writer, some random ass killing and abrupt bad ending is not going to happen.

Aymaan143 said:
I noticed that it lists 13 episodes for this show, when it was previously 12.

Stella6789 said:
This anime is becoming such a pain to watch, I'm glad it only has 12 episodes

Deleth said:

The rise of Rome was preceeded by the softening and liberalization of Ancient Greece. In turn the liberalization and softening of Rome eventually led to it being overrun by the more aggressive and determinated German barbarians.

Just look at the history of the most successfull nations, not one of them started out with all those morals, pacifism and other stuff they eventually developed but only invented them once they had grown fat and content.