Shinsekai yori Episode 20 Discussion

dankickyou said:


It wasn't like that in the novel, I don't know why the hell the writers of this series are doing this...

mikado34 said:
Saki has a near death experience and she thinks about the faceless boy.. so it means Shun is the main reason for her to stay alive? She did tell Satoru she didn't want to die clueless. They also expressed they both loved him. *Sigh* Saki and Satoru tend to talk about their love for those who died, but not for each other. But the mutual bond between them is really powerful and they are such a good match.

I didn't get why the kid who Saki meet, didn't know about the deal with the dead feedback. It's odd since it's an important knowledge.

ClaraLiteraria said:
Satoru has died and now Saki is alone. I wonder what she'll do.

Great episode 5/5

PerlaNemesis said:
The cantus leakage they mentioned in preview... Don't tell me that people are turning into Karma Demons now!



I think he's still alive. Saki pushed him in time, so for now they are just separeted. At least I hope.

RediceRyan said:
Great episode.
The animation budget of this should've been more.

XartaX said:
What I don't get is why a fiend is SUCH an issue after what we've been shown, which is: Death feedback will kill you AFTER you kill another human being (e.g. when Saki tells the boy he'd die if she got killed by him).

Now if you knew a dude was gonna kill you, and then everyone you care about, wouldn't you kill him even if it meant you'd die yourself? Just seems like a huge ass plothole. Maybe it's something about being *aware* of yourself killing a human being that kills you (since the boy didn't know it yet), but I'm sure they could get around that somehow. Hell, even blinding themselves and firing their canti in random directions would probably be better than just giving up.

MelbShaw said:
Did Saki completely brushed off Satoru after that explosion and went about her business? lol

kpk10 said:
They... took down the part on the boat where Saki tells Satoru that *she loves him*.

Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME!

Flaiboy said:
Anime episodes haven't flown by this fast for me since FMA. Think it's gonna be the Fiend's task to take out Shisei?

ToriFuda said:
Perhaps the thing I've found most chilling in the entire show is the fact that this is a world where humans are *not* masters of their domain anymore. It's scary to see a world where humans are losing their grip on Earth, and it questions some deep-seated ideas of what I think most of us feel are related to human manifest destiny.

AnimageNeby said:


Indeed, the depiction of this future society and it's possible demise, is one of the strong points of the series. I'm quite pleased with the intricate description and visual and other details of an imaginary future - including the changes that occurred to it by the immense power of cantus, a change of sexual and other mores by use of genetics and conditioning,a completely different view on the relation between generations (adults killing youths out of self-preservation), etc. As I have told in the former thread, I think it are these details that make the immersion and liveliness of that society that much higher.

I would say this anime scores high as an apocalyptic fiction; a sub-genre of science fiction that is concerned with the end of human civilization due to a potentially existential catastrophe, in this case, the queerats, but with the underlying cause human hubris.

Of course, it seems to me that while the individual powers have become God-like, the race as a whole has declined. We've not been shown much of other villages, but I have the strong impression humanity is strongly declined, and certainly doesn't reach billions of people. During the series, there are hardly any references outside the village we see, and any references to other humans come in the form of a handful of other villages in Japan. This would mean a stark decline in numbers, though each one has far greater power than we have today.

And this forms the chilling effect indeed; an existential risk narrowly refers to any factor threatening the existence of humanity and thus can refer to a risk that has the potential to destroy, or drastically restrict, human civilization, and even to lead to human extinction. With the queerats revolting, and actually being far more dangerous then cantus-users believe, the human existence is now threatened even further indeed. Being on top of the food-chain and consciously or unconsciously thinking our race at the summit of everything, we inherently find such thoughts unpleasant.

ToriFuda said:


I've been making slow progress into the books, but from what I've read there are a *few* token references to external human societies. I do find it fascinating though that there seems to be little to no sense of connectedness among the humans.

I completely agree on your point that while the individual human has much more power than before, human civilization as a whole has declined. In fact, it makes me feel almost as if Cantus was a genetic mutation that started the humans on their path to destruction. I feel like, however, that if/when the Kamisu 66 society recovers from the Bakenezumi attacks, the society will organize itself in a much more healthy way. The previous threat to human society came in the form of Akki and Gouma (Karmic Demons and something I don't remember). Whenever a society has to deal with a strong internal threat, the initial reaction is to create a police state. In fact, we can see that the society of the humans in Kamisu 66 is highly Orwellian. Adults are encouraged to ferret out troublemakers among the kids and there's a great deal of fear and monitoring of the kids by adults. Most jobs in the society seemed heavily bureaucratized and created only to service the needs of the State or Society.

The Bakenezumi however are a purely *external* threat. Obviously, the real cause of the humans' destruction is a mix of human hubris and Bakenezumi threat, but for generations to come, this will be seen as a Bakenezumi attack. Society will instead try to prepare itself for an *external* threat and will hopefully form a more healthy set of limitations. (Though perhaps the true philosophical question is whether this is healthy at all. Should humans be allowed to ethically carry this idea of manifest destiny?)

I can't wait to see how the show develops!

AnimageNeby said:


I find myself in total accordance of the thoughts you expressed here. Including the adagium 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'. Indeed, if they survive this, human society will probably become better (also more ethically) and more organised, and, I think - we've seen some hints on the shortcomings - more technological, again. Because not only is there a stark decline of numbers, there is also a clear decline of technology visible. I guess they thought they didn't need it, with their cantus, but in fact many issues they have now could have been remediated if they had even our current-day technology.

The only further detail I would add, is pointing out the ambiguity their civilisation has created for itself: at the one hand, they are a controlling police-state-like society as you said, but at the same time, they try to create a very peaceful society, where 'make love not war' has been ingrained, even at the genetic level (bonobo behaviour) where humans can't hurt other humans anymore by several means (death feedback) and through conditioning (hypnotic rituals, education, etc.). Thus, it is more complex than just the typical SF 'state controlling its citizens as puppets' concept we often see. They genuinely try to raise their kids (and people in general) as free, caring and loving individuals, I think, but fear of the consequences of their power going wrong has corrupted this ideal. All those things they have done to create an existence more peaceful than anything in human history, yet it suffices not. This dichotomy between the goal they want and the reality of their actions make even more an interesting topic.

In essence, humanity has become more docile and more ruthless at the same time than ever before. An intriguing concept, to say the least.

ToriFuda said:
Such is the tragedy. Throughout human history, when we look at Orwellian societies (The Soviet Union, Hoenecker's East Germany, Tito's Yugoslavia, The Kim Familiy's North Korea) we see them as failed experiments. Attempts at Utopian societies that adopt utopian trappings in order to convince their population of salvation, despite deluding them of the reality with which they live. The reality of the SSY world however is much more depressing. Their society arrived at their current state due to *desperation*. It was through reaction, not through idealism, that they cloistered themselves into a police state and that shows in the dichotomy you point out.

dankickyou said:


This are people who were completely shocked when they learned that a human can indeed kill another human...

AnimageNeby said:


I find myself in total accordance of the thoughts you expressed here. Including the adagium 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'. Indeed, if they survive this, human society will probably become better (also more ethically) and more organised, and, I think - we've seen some hints on the shortcomings - more technological, again. Because not only is there a stark decline of numbers, there is also a clear decline of technology visible. I guess they thought they didn't need it, with their cantus, but in fact many issues they have now could have been remediated if they had even our current-day technology.

The only further detail I would add, is pointing out the ambiguity their civilisation has created for itself: at the one hand, they are a controlling police-state-like society as you said, but at the same time, they try to create a very peaceful society, where 'make love not war' has been ingrained, even at the genetic level (bonobo behaviour) where humans can't hurt other humans anymore by several means (death feedback) and through conditioning (hypnotic rituals, education, etc.). Thus, it is more complex than just the typical SF 'state controlling its citizens as puppets' concept we often see. They genuinely try to raise their kids (and people in general) as free, caring and loving individuals, I think, but fear of the consequences of their power going wrong has corrupted this ideal. All those things they have done to create an existence more peaceful than anything in human history, yet it suffices not. This dichotomy between the goal they want and the reality of their actions make even more an interesting topic.

In essence, humanity has become more docile and more ruthless at the same time than ever before. An intriguing concept, to say the least.

HongISfirE said:


You know what more chilling? The possibility of cantus user that once destroy entire human civilization becoming slave for rat! RAT!!!
From worshiped as GOD-like being to become SLAVE, that really make me scared. That worse than dead. And fact that those rat are their creation only make it worse

Siva said:
People are still comparing every details from anime to manga/novel? Even though they know that the story telling between the two are completely different from each other?

logopolis said:
I am completely convinced we're supposed to work out that ordinary folk like us are the queerats, and ultimately the more sympathetic side, with the "humans" showing a callous disregard for the basic rights of other sentient beings just because they believe them to be inferior. But I wonder whether the story will ever come right out and say it?

Fantastic episode, as ever. I can see no way this won't be my first 10 since 2006.

logopolis said:
I am completely convinced we're supposed to work out that ordinary folk like us are the queerats, and ultimately the more sympathetic side, with the "humans" showing a callous disregard for the basic rights of other sentient beings just because they believe them to be inferior. But I wonder whether the story will ever come right out and say it?

ToriFuda said:


But I can't and that's perhaps the most scary/interesting part of this show. At some intellectual level, I realize the Bakenezumi are being used as slaves and that the humans are just using them baselessly. But on some primal level I feel *scared*. Humans *should* be the dominant species, no matter their transgressions. I think this duality is what makes the show so poignant.